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Exactly How Much Credit Does Vince Deserve?

Tenta

The Shark Should've Worked in WCW
So I was watching a promo today between Vince and Hulk Hogan, both arguing on who was the true creator of Hulkamania. I thought to myself... It begs an interesting question. Surely any superstar has some hand in the gimmick that he's created. But just how much is Vince responsible for the mega-stars The WWE has created? How much of a hand did Vince play in superstars such as Steve Austin, The Rock, Hulk Hogan, and other mega names that have branched out into other sources of the media?

Surely one can't say he's completely responsible for creating the mega-stars. If that were the case, it could be argued that every single star the WWE has ever tried to make should also reach that plateau, as well. Surely not everyone can make that elite status... But if Vince was completely responsible for these stars, then wouldn't each of the stars he created be at the same level of Hulk Hogan, Austin, etc.?

Yet, without Vince, there's no way any of these stars reach the status they are. Who else would give these men the time oif day they deserve? Who in the right mind would take Steve Austin, and make him who he is, as a television actor, or a radio broadcaster, or as any other venture could potentially have made? Surely Eric Bischoff couldn't have done it... Otherwise, well, he would have. But then again, it all comes back to Steve creating the character he did. Which leads us into the same cycle of thought that begs to be asked.

Anyway, I'm in dire need of lunch. So again, it begs to be asked... Exactly how much credit should we give Vince McMahon? Furthermore, why do you feel this way?
 
Anyway, I'm in dire need of lunch. So again, it begs to be asked... Exactly how much credit should we give Vince McMahon? Furthermore, why do you feel this way?

I'd give Vince credit for monopolizing the pro wrestling industry. It's a dubious credit to be sure, I for one don't like the idea that his company dictates where the business goes next, if he decides that pro wrestling should cater to kindergarten audiences and Barney The Dinosaur vs Big Bird should headline the next Wrestlemania, by golly, that's what the WWE would do, and they would brainwash their hardcore loyal fans into accepting it as a great move, you know, the guys that are waiting for their "I'm part of the WWE Universe" T-shirt.

Peace out.
 
Coincidence, I'm watching Wrestlemania XIX now and thinking the same thing.
When it comes to creating stars, it's a two way street.
Taking Hogan as the exampe, Hogan would've gotten nowhere without Vince booking him the way he did. On the other hand, Hogan's charisma and promos are what made the crowd like him.

Vince is genius, no doubt. He has an extraordinary eye for talent that no one has ever had before him. From Hogan to Warrior, Hart to Michaels, Austin to Rock, Triple H to Angle, Lesnar to Cena, Batista to Edge, and up to and including Orton and Punk. Vince has seen the talent and potential each one of these guys has or has had.
He has booked these guys in a way that has made them stars and made them over.

But there's only so much Vince can do on his own. He can see the talent. He can put all his energy into booking them as well as he can. But in the end, it's the wrestlers that are out there on their own. The wrestlers are ultimately in control of their own destiny.

Austin was the one who delivered his Austin 3:16 line so perfectly. Austin was the one who made the crowd cheer for him at Wrestlemania 13 (with some help from Hart).
HBK was the one who landed such a devastating superkick on Janetty and threw him throught the window. Mcmahon didn't do it for him.
It's the Rock that made his promos so damn good.

All Mcmahon does is book the wrestlers. The wrestlers are the ones who have to get themselves over. Wrestlers can be booked to look like a million bucks and still end up flat on their face.
The perfect example of this is Shelton Benjamin.
The guy was Angle's protege. He's a multi time IC champion. He had a match of the year candidate against HBK. He defeated Triple H three fucking times.
But due to his lack of charisma, mic skills and any emotion provoking qualities, he's forever destined to be a midcarder.

So yeah, the creating of a star is 50:50 between Vince and the wrestler.
 
I'd give McMahon A LOT of credit. Now clearly, at the end of the day it comes down to how good the wrestler is and that isn't something McMahon can control. But he's most often the one to come up with the gimmicks and then market them. Odds are your favourite WWE star is your favourite because McMahon has made it that way. I don't think Hogan would have been as big without McMahon, just as McMahon (Or the WWE) wouldn't be as big without Hogan, so it does work both ways, but McMahon deserves praise.
 
Vince diserve as much credit as anyone....maybe a little more.Look without Vince you cant go anywere.Look at Christian for example, Great guy good wrestler and yet Vince never liked him so hes never amounted to anything.(ECW Title dosnt count it may as well be the FCW title). Guys like Hogan and The...Dare I even mention...The Rock wouldnt have gotten anywere if Vince didnt like him. Maybe the gimmick wasnt all his idea but if Vince didnt want to push the gimmick and superstar then the gimmick wouldnt go anywere
 
Great thread topic.

Well, one needs to keep in mind that Vince is not a Self-Made Multi-Millionaire. It is highly, highly questionable if Vince would be where he is at today, without his Father. His father had all the groundwork laid. Vince Sr. sold his company to his son, probably for pennies. It is funny how whenever Vince tells this story, he never states how much he gave his father for the company, which leads me to believe it was next to nothing. I've actually heard stories that Vince was simply given the company on the condition that he "make a profit with it".

So in doing so, he has all of his father's contacts with wrestlers and other promoters around the country. All of that was setup for him.

What Vince did is took a company that his father had established, and took it to the National Level. That will always be Vince McMahon's biggest accomplishment, and it happened over 35 years ago. Vince also, deserves credit for the Rock and Wrestling Connection, which transformed wrestling into an Entertainment Medium, through associating it with pop culture.

As far as Hulk Hogan, Vince has made the claim that he "could have picked anyone to play Hulk Hogan". I'm not really so sure that's true. Sure, Vince gave Hogan a platform and the chance to succeed. But I think Terry Bollea played the character so well, that this is the real reason behind the success of Hogan. If what Vince said was true, and he could have picked anyone to play Hulk Hogan, then why wasn't Lex Luger successful? That is essentially what Luger was, was Hulk Hogan Version 2.0, and Vince tried to push him to the moon. However, the fans rejected him.

Fans also weren't as big on the Ultimate Warrior, who was another Marquee draw after Hogan dropped the title to him. Vince tried to push the Warrior to the Moon, as well ... but the fans did not respond to him with as much enthusiasm as Hulk Hogan, when Hogan was champion.

Vince was the orchestrator of the WBF. Absolute failure.

Then, the wrestling business received a lot of Negative attention for Steroid Use. Again, you have to fault Vince McMahon for this, as he undoubtedly turned a blind eye to all of it, if not encouraged the use of them. He tried The New Generation with Bret Hart and Diesel at the healm, which was nowhere near as successful as the Hogan Era.

Then Nitro was formed and almost put Vince out of business. Vince had literally no idea where to take his company, and he was facing bankruptcy. So for once in his life, Vince listened to someone else .... only after he was backed into a corner. And that person was later to be known as the true Father of the Attitude Era, Vince Russo. This saved the company, and thanks to bad management on the part of WCW, they went out of business.

Bad management was also the reason ECW went out of business. However, Heyman had a much more difficult time competing, since he had nowhere near the financial resources of a Vince McMahon or an Eric Bischoff (through Turner). ECW had their talent raided by both companies, which I think was the primary reason for the downfall of that company, combined with bad management and a lack of resources.

This is the only period where Vince McMahon was truly tested.

He was the creator of the XFL. The XFL was a failure.

He designed WWE New York. That was a failure.

He created WWE Films. That is regarded as a laughingstock and basically brings in pennies. 12 Rounds was a complete flop. The Condemned was a complete flop. The others did poorly, and whatever profits were made were eroded by The Condemned.

Since the Attitude Era and the departures of Steve Austin and The Rock, Vince has struggled to keep fans. He's been consistently losing fans since that time. So he switched gears after the Post Attitude Era with his programming content, and tried a new strategy with the PG Era. Basically, he targets his programming to nobody. It isn't targeted to adults. It isn't targeted to kids. It just isn't really targeted towards anybody. And he's done this through eliminating storylines, gimmicks, concentrating on purely the action inside the ring, getting the commentators to act like they are real sports announcers, taken away the sexuality from the Divas, removed the ringside managers, etc.

What has been the result? He's still losing more fans than he is gaining them. And the only reason he is surviving is by raising prices on his most loyal customers-- that being his base, thus testing their threshold and patience. And even that base is being chipped away today.

The Mr. McMahon character, which has been around since 1998 has gotten absolutely dull and stale. With some very slight variations in the character, this has been the same character we've seen on TV for over 11 years.

His faces aren't funny anymore.

The "Youuuuuuuuuuu're Fiiiiiiiiired!" line isn't funny anymore.

He, like older wrestlers, is simply living off his past reputation.


So I definitely think Vince McMahon is highly, highly over-rated by a lot of fans in this business. I hear people call him a genius. He isn't. And to his credit, he admits that he isn't a genius. He deserves credit for taking his father's company that he essentially inherited, and taking it National. He made a good decision to tap into the Entertainment World which helped promote the first Wrestlemania. He got lucky when Terry Bollea came along and should be thanking his lucky stars that Bollea pulled off the character with such perfection. And he should be credited simply for listening to Vince Russo's ideas (again, whose ideas were not those of Vince McMahon) when his back was against the wall and facing bankruptcy. Those are the main things Vince deserves credit for.
 
I was thinking about this too.

It also made me realize how incredibly LUCKY the WWE has been.

Vince deserves credit for the attitude era, but not its success.

He deserves credit for bringing wrestling into a national promotion seen by 20 million americans in the 80s.

But honestly the WWE has been very lucky landing that right superstar.

Without Austin or Hogan those eras wouldn't be as good. There would be no anti-heel Rock without Austin, there would be no Cena without, well, everyone.

Austin was brought to the WWE by JR. I don't know if Vince deserves full credit or not for Hulk Hogan's success.

The WWE has just been really lucky since the perfect super stars just fall on their lap, Vince doesn't deserve credit for the stars, just the concept of entertainment and its form.
 
Great thread topic.

Well, one needs to keep in mind that Vince is not a Self-Made Multi-Millionaire. It is highly, highly questionable if Vince would be where he is at today, without his Father. His father had all the groundwork laid. Vince Sr. sold his company to his son, probably for pennies. It is funny how whenever Vince tells this story, he never states how much he gave his father for the company, which leads me to believe it was next to nothing. I've actually heard stories that Vince was simply given the company on the condition that he "make a profit with it".

So in doing so, he has all of his father's contacts with wrestlers and other promoters around the country. All of that was setup for him.

What Vince did is took a company that his father had established, and took it to the National Level. That will always be Vince McMahon's biggest accomplishment, and it happened over 35 years ago. Vince also, deserves credit for the Rock and Wrestling Connection, which transformed wrestling into an Entertainment Medium, through associating it with pop culture.

As far as Hulk Hogan, Vince has made the claim that he "could have picked anyone to play Hulk Hogan". I'm not really so sure that's true. Sure, Vince gave Hogan a platform and the chance to succeed. But I think Terry Bollea played the character so well, that this is the real reason behind the success of Hogan. If what Vince said was true, and he could have picked anyone to play Hulk Hogan, then why wasn't Lex Luger successful? That is essentially what Luger was, was Hulk Hogan Version 2.0, and Vince tried to push him to the moon. However, the fans rejected him.

Fans also weren't as big on the Ultimate Warrior, who was another Marquee draw after Hogan dropped the title to him. Vince tried to push the Warrior to the Moon, as well ... but the fans did not respond to him with as much enthusiasm as Hulk Hogan, when Hogan was champion.

Vince was the orchestrator of the WBF. Absolute failure.

Then, the wrestling business received a lot of Negative attention for Steroid Use. Again, you have to fault Vince McMahon for this, as he undoubtedly turned a blind eye to all of it, if not encouraged the use of them. He tried The New Generation with Bret Hart and Diesel at the healm, which was nowhere near as successful as the Hogan Era.

Then Nitro was formed and almost put Vince out of business. Vince had literally no idea where to take his company, and he was facing bankruptcy. So for once in his life, Vince listened to someone else .... only after he was backed into a corner. And that person was later to be known as the true Father of the Attitude Era, Vince Russo. This saved the company, and thanks to bad management on the part of WCW, they went out of business.

Bad management was also the reason ECW went out of business. However, Heyman had a much more difficult time competing, since he had nowhere near the financial resources of a Vince McMahon or an Eric Bischoff (through Turner). ECW had their talent raided by both companies, which I think was the primary reason for the downfall of that company, combined with bad management and a lack of resources.

This is the only period where Vince McMahon was truly tested.

He was the creator of the XFL. The XFL was a failure.

He designed WWE New York. That was a failure.

He created WWE Films. That is regarded as a laughingstock and basically brings in pennies. 12 Rounds was a complete flop. The Condemned was a complete flop. The others did poorly, and whatever profits were made were eroded by The Condemned.

Since the Attitude Era and the departures of Steve Austin and The Rock, Vince has struggled to keep fans. He's been consistently losing fans since that time. So he switched gears after the Post Attitude Era with his programming content, and tried a new strategy with the PG Era. Basically, he targets his programming to nobody. It isn't targeted to adults. It isn't targeted to kids. It just isn't really targeted towards anybody. And he's done this through eliminating storylines, gimmicks, concentrating on purely the action inside the ring, getting the commentators to act like they are real sports announcers, taken away the sexuality from the Divas, removed the ringside managers, etc.

What has been the result? He's still losing more fans than he is gaining them. And the only reason he is surviving is by raising prices on his most loyal customers-- that being his base, thus testing their threshold and patience. And even that base is being chipped away today.

The Mr. McMahon character, which has been around since 1998 has gotten absolutely dull and stale. With some very slight variations in the character, this has been the same character we've seen on TV for over 11 years.

His faces aren't funny anymore.

The "Youuuuuuuuuuu're Fiiiiiiiiired!" line isn't funny anymore.

He, like older wrestlers, is simply living off his past reputation.


So I definitely think Vince McMahon is highly, highly over-rated by a lot of fans in this business. I hear people call him a genius. He isn't. And to his credit, he admits that he isn't a genius. He deserves credit for taking his father's company that he essentially inherited, and taking it National. He made a good decision to tap into the Entertainment World which helped promote the first Wrestlemania. He got lucky when Terry Bollea came along and should be thanking his lucky stars that Bollea pulled off the character with such perfection. And he should be credited simply for listening to Vince Russo's ideas (again, whose ideas were not those of Vince McMahon) when his back was against the wall and facing bankruptcy. Those are the main things Vince deserves credit for.

Sure Vince wouldn't be where he is today without his father but wrestling wouldn't be where it is/was without Vince. That includes ECW and WCW too before someone acts like a smartass and says wrestling sucks now.

The Vince/Hogan thing is 50/50. Without Vince Hogan is not a household name and without Hogan Wrestlemania is not born. Or if it is born it's not as big as it is today.

The Warrior comment is just asinine. Warrior was totally different than Hogan and of course he wasn't as over as Hogan was. At that time no one was as over as Hogan and to this day only two guys are in Hogan's league. Rock and Austin. Warrior may not have been over as big as Hogan was but the was over big time and made the WWF a lot of money.

As far as Vince's failures, all successful business men fail. It's what makes them successful. You learn from your mistakes and move on. The only true failure is the guy who never tries because he gets nowhere.

WWE films may fail in the theaters but most of the money they make off of them come from DVD sales. It doesn't cost much to make the movies so they do make money off of them.

Is WWE losing some of it's fanbase, sure. That will happen when you have no competition. That is my biggest compliant with wrestling today. But it wasn't Vince's fault that Bischoff was a moron and allowed his "buddies" to run WCW into the ground. He gave them HUGE contracts to work when they wanted to work and job to who they wanted to job too. We can rip on Triple H all day(and rightfully so)but he is not even close to the planet that the higher card guys in WCW were.

As far as him raising prices, welcome to the USA. He is not the only one. Look around and you will see that the price of gas is once again rising and milk is no longer what it was 5 years ago. The price of utilities keeps rising as does rent(unless you own). The price of food is rising. Economics.

As far as the Mr. McMahon character, it may be stale to you and I but Vince doesn't make his money off of you and I. He doesn't care about the wanna be smarks on a wrestling board he cares about the people who spend the money to come see his shows. As long as he is over with them(and he is) the character will still be around.

As far as the older wrestler comment, that's wrestling. How did you think WCW became so big? By living off the past reputations of the older WWF guys.

Vince Russo wasn't the only guy who threw out ideas in the AE. There was a group of them that included McMahon. I do think the credit should be spread around for the AE Era.

I don't think Vince is a genius I don't think he is highly overrated either. He's done lots of great things for this business and has had a lot of help along the way. Sure he's screwed up along the way but that's part of being human. I never have agreed with everything he's done but I don't have to. It's his company.

Vince gave the guys like Hogan, Rock and Austin the stage to become as big as they have. Without Vince none of them are household names. Vice versa too. The WWE wouldn't be where it is today without those guys working in the ring.. That's why I give credit where it's do if I like the guy or not. I absolutely despise Hogan but would never take away what he did for the wrestling biz. Just my :twocents:.
 
Hogan was huge before Vince created Hulkamania. They came up with The Hulk for his gimmick but since that was already a comic book, Vince went with Hogan since he's Irish and has thing for Irish names. I heard that somewhere.. But Hogan was the one who sold the tickets and wrestled 350 days a year. Vince gets credit for making WWWF into the global WWE it is now though. Hogan or not though if it wasn't for Vince having the cojones to create Wrestlemania we wouldn't have the WWE. Stone Cold was the Ringmaster and WWF had nothing for him until he suggested he be his own man. His ex wife came up with the Stone Cold part, after he was drinking cold tea. Vince came come up with some shitty gimmicks though. Just look at the Gobbeldy Gooker, Meat, P.M.S, and Beaver Cleavage.
 
I'd say overall, Vince deserves a lot of credit for one very simple reason: he won. Love Vince or hate him, he won the wars and was the last man standing. Now of course he was ruthless in doing it. Of course he's screwed the fans a lot of times by insulting our intelligence, but you have to admit that he won when no one else did. Yes, he nearly died in the 90s and WCW was far better, but just like every company from Deep South Wrestling to the AWA, WCW didn't survive. People can say all they want that anyone could have won with what WWF had, but I disagree. No one has a passion for the business like Vince does and you can see that every time he goes out to the ring. Last nght I watched the McMahon DVD, and while there were a ton of lies in there, the underlying message was that Vince loves wrestling, and I think that's absolutely true. He's been in business nearly thirty years. Hulkamania started over 25 years ago, so we'll call that the true start of the WWF. WCW was in business for 12 years, ECW 7 years. He's double his only real competition for longevity. No matter how great the wrestlers were, at the end of the day, Vince was the real power behind the whole thing. With all of the talent that WCW had, they couldn't make it work. Vince took a lot of the same talent and made it work and made it work better. Have to go with him.
 
The wrestling boom of the 80's needs to be attributed to both McMahon and hogan, no doubt. However, I think more of the credit needs to go to McMahon. While McMahon is not correct when he says he could have made anyone Hulk Hogan, I think he could have been as successful with a select few people, meanwhile, it is obvious that Hogan wasn't gonna be as big until Vince got a hold of him. Hogan was in AWA, and hulkamania was not big. He came to Vince, and Hulkamania got mega-huge.

Everybody that has come after the 80's boom needs to give Vince credit because they wouldn't be there without him. He gives them an outlet to share their creation (their character) with a worldwide audience). Anybody in any field needs to give credit to the person allowing them to show their stuff to their audience. If I was a baseball player, I need to thank the owner of the team I play for, for giving me a chance to showcase my ability.

Vince may not come up with the idea, but he needs some credit for everything that has happened in WWE, cause it is his money that lets them do their thing.
 
Vince McMahon deserves all the credit for what works and all the blame for what doesn't.

NOthing goes on TV without it being blessed by Vince McMahon first. So if it's on TV it is because Vince McMahon said it should be.

If it works he gets all the credit. If it doesn't he deserves and ACCEPTS all the blame.
 

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