Eric Bischoff or Paul Heyman?

[rokuma]

I keep reading on here that "ECW would have been mainstream if they had backing like WCW." Do you realize that multiple wrestlers have come out and said Paul Heyman was horrible at managing money? He could've had all of Ted Turner's money, but he would've burned the thing down before it got started...Heyman is a great wrestling mind, but he is a horrible business man.

The answer for me is easy: Eric Bischoff. Heyman NEVER competed with WWF on a scale like Bischoff. Bischoff nearly drove Vince McMahon...think about that, Vince freakin' McMahon...out of business in 95-97. If it hadn't been for Bret jumping ship, Austin starting to take off in 97, HBK and his drug abuse issues, Montreal, and the NWO never been disbanded, we'd likely be watching WCW today. The WWF was in DIRE straits from what you read. How many people can say they ever had Vince McMahon on the ropes?! From day one, Bischoff cut costs: less live shows, moving TV Tapings to Disney, investing in "home grown stars" like Flair, Sting, Austin to some degree, Vader, etc and bringing in worthwhile veterans like Hogan, Savage and later on Nash, Hall, Henning, etc. This gave the promotion legitimacy. The most important move he made was having the guts to take on Vince and WWF Monday Night Raw and try to OWN Mondays. He did for a long time. Bischoff planned long-term from 1993...also the production values of WCW really changed the way Vince portrayed his product. And airing live every Monday? Raw didn't do that. By the way, Bischoff had the guts to have the results of his opponent's show read on air! True competition.

And personally, a greater testament to Bischoff is the way TNA is proceeding now. He may not be "the guy," but you can see seeds of WCW planted in TNA's product. Namely, long-term planning, building home-grown talent while integrating past stars, and it looks like he's learned from his mistakes and they are growing new stars like Roode, Aries, Storm, etc. Heyman has never taken that opportunity with the exception of a stint working on creative for Smackdown. Bischoff continues to show he can still put out a solid wrestling product. The production values of TNA are so much cleaner than WWE's today and the backstage segments generally feel more realistic. It's a pleasing product. Could Heyman do the same? I doubt it. Bischoff has proven he can.

 

[theBec2101]

All Eric Bicshoff did was spend a ton of someone else’s money and when it ran dry they were S.O.L. Heyman on the other hand he built something from nothing. He worked out of his mom's basement and the pay was very little. He had people that were dedicated. Bischoff paid people whatever they wanted just to get ahead. it got him there but wants it sustainable. WCW had one thing that made it relevant against WWE and that was the NWO storyline. ECW on the other hand was always creating people and matches so nothing gets stale of boring. WCW rode the NWO train into the ground so much that they had 28 members and had to divided that up and they stacked it one-sided. Also what the put the WCW title through was just horrible.

 

[Nikkolas]

People really don't want to give Eric any credit these days. It's kinda sad. One can only wonder what sort of horrid alternate universe would have been produced if we replaced Eric with your standard "smart mark." Doubtless they would have never hired Hogan or Nash. Why, I bet they would have even made Chris Benoit World Champion back then.

Then WCW goes out of business in a year or two without even making Vince blink.
And we get to enjoy top quality Diaper Matches even to this day.

Anyway, let's get back to reality. Bischoff is a genius and anyone says othrwise is just a hater. You say he ripped off the nWo angle? So frickin' what? D-X is nothing more than a rip-off of the nWo. Does that mean DX wasn't immensely over? Does that mean DX wasn't a great idea that did wonders for the WWF's business? Hell no.

Stone Cold drinking beer like he did was probably ripping off Sandman. What a worthless loser he is right.

It doesn't matter who invented what. It matters how what was invented was utilized. Eric had great talent and he added unrivaled star power in the form of Hogan to that talent. Bischoff's nWo was perfection.

And it wasn't just the nWo. People have already cited other examples of his brilliance like the Cruiserweight Division and going live but we can't forget him giving away Raw results. (And no, don't care about Mick winning the WWF Title. Bisch's idea had worked until then so I'm gonna say it was a success.)

There's also Sting's return in '97. People whine about the StarrCade match but until then, it was really well done. Bischoff was a master of hype, as seen witH Goldberg.

I don't care about Paul Heyman and I don't care about his dinky little federation that couldn't. The only reason people get on boards these days and praise him while putting Bischoff down was because one was the poor little underdog while the other was the popular juggernaut. It's almost like people online are marks actually in the ECW arena, listening to Heyman give his little rallying speeches about how great ECW is while insulting those grand empires of evil, the dreaded Actually Important Wrestling Organizations.
All while the WWF was giving him money.

So, sorry ECW. You didn't matter. WCW did.

vs.

McMahon Doesn't Know Who Paul Heyman Is

 

[byrnside]

This is an interesting thread. In spite of how "big" ECW was or was not, I think you can't really dispute the fact that Heyman made a huge impact on wrestling. He hired talent like Jericho, Malenko, Mysterio, Benoit, Guerrero, Rob Van Dam, Raven, Shane Douglas when, I seriously doubt, WCW nor WWE would touch them, with the exception of Raven and Shane Douglas who either previously or briefly worked in WWE with little success. Bischoff was smart enough to start leeching the better talents off of Heyman eventually. Heyman was also smart enough to try to start working side by side with Vince. In reality, ECW, monetarily, could never touch either company which is why so many wrestlers left Philly. Heyman was a genius in that he could make, arguably, talent-less talent look like a million dollars. He is also a much better performer than Bischoff as well as being a much smarter businessman as far as wrestling goes, in spite of not having Vince's or Ted's money at his leisure. Some of the angles they ran in ECW between 1995-99 are legendary. Of course everyone knows he is the one who legitimized hardcore wrestling to the point that the WWE and WCW tried to replicate it.

 

[Arashi]

People really don't want to give Eric any credit these days. It's kinda sad. One can only wonder what sort of horrid alternate universe would have been produced if we replaced Eric with your standard "smart mark." Doubtless they would have never hired Hogan or Nash. Why, I bet they would have even made Chris Benoit World Champion back then.

I don't know if I'm a "smart mark" but anyone that wouldn't hire hogan is an idiot. I would've and I don't think I'm the smartest guy on the planet.

Then WCW goes out of business in a year or two without even making Vince blink.
And we get to enjoy top quality Diaper Matches even to this day.

And now you're stating opinion as fact. Great to know that you like doing that, it will probably help me with the rest of this post.

Anyway, let's get back to reality. Bischoff is a genius and anyone says othrwise is just a hater. You say he ripped off the nWo angle? So frickin' what? D-X is nothing more than a rip-off of the nWo. Does that mean DX wasn't immensely over? Does that mean DX wasn't a great idea that did wonders for the WWF's business? Hell no.

DX wasn't a rip off of the NWO and to say so is ridiculous. The NWO was a gang of thugs from the start, DX was about shawn being shawn, DX weren't thugs, just assholes who were better than you. Plus everyone on the roster didn't join them...

Stone Cold drinking beer like he did was probably ripping off Sandman. What a worthless loser he is right.

Thanks for that

It doesn't matter who invented what. It matters how what was invented was utilized. Eric had great talent and he added unrivaled star power in the form of Hogan to that talent. Bischoff's nWo was perfection.

He also gave a ridiculous amount of creative control and caused the demise of WCW. You give him a lot of credit without giving him any of the blame. Bischoff did alot of good things, BUT his NWO was not perfect. It got out of control, and he let it.

And it wasn't just the nWo. People have already cited other examples of his brilliance like the Cruiserweight Division and going live but we can't forget him giving away Raw results. (And no, don't care about Mick winning the WWF Title. Bisch's idea had worked until then so I'm gonna say it was a success.)

Giving away the results was stupid, and yes he did it and had a little success but it was an overwhelming failure once all those people flipped the channel to watch Mick win the world title.

There's also Sting's return in '97. People whine about the StarrCade match but until then, it was really well done. Bischoff was a master of hype, as seen witH Goldberg.

Yes he was a master of hype but execution is the problem, every big chance to cash in he missed. Sting vs Hogan was a Joke. It didn't go anywhere and made WCW look like shit. Goldberg was great but he didn't cash in on a PPV match which would've made MILLIONS, but instead Hogan vs Goldberg happened on TV for free which was an awful business move.

I don't care about Paul Heyman and I don't care about his dinky little federation that couldn't. The only reason people get on boards these days and praise him while putting Bischoff down was because one was the poor little underdog while the other was the popular juggernaut. It's almost like people online are marks actually in the ECW arena, listening to Heyman give his little rallying speeches about how great ECW is while insulting those grand empires of evil, the dreaded Actually Important Wrestling Organizations.

No actually people don't really hammer on Bischoff, we just realize that he had Ted's money and Heyman had none of that. Bischoff was good but he wasn't the be all and end all. I like him but he wasn't better than Heyman, he held a better position than Heyman who was a genius in the sport, and some of the biggest players in wrestling today. Lesnar and CM Punk call themselves Heyman guys to this day.

So, sorry ECW. You didn't matter. WCW did.

ECW doesn't matter but you just said above this that Steve Austin was probably a rip off of an ECW character... The guy that vince mcmahon calls the greatest superstar of all time is probably a rip off of an ECW guy.... But ECW didn't matter. They had nothing to do with the Attitude era, they didn't make hardcore wrestling acceptable, they did nothing. Clear bias, ECW did matter, and so did WCW, but then again, Heyman didn't blow millions and millions of Ted Turners money.

McMahon Doesn't Know Who Paul Heyman Is

Yeah he's just paying him weekly to this day. Yeah that Heyman guys a real idiot.... Doesn't matter at all.

 

[Nikkolas]

I don't know if I'm a "smart mark" but anyone that wouldn't hire hogan is an idiot. I would've and I don't think I'm the smartest guy on the planet.

I've been in the IWC for six years.
Not once in those six years have people stopped bitching about Hulk Hogan. How he couldn't wrestle, how he was overrated, how he somehow buried every superstar he ever so much as looked at.

And now you're stating opinion as fact. Great to know that you like doing that, it will probably help me with the rest of this post.

I was just being rude. I don't think my opinion is fact.

He also gave a ridiculous amount of creative control and caused the demise of WCW. You give him a lot of credit without giving him any of the blame. Bischoff did alot of good things, BUT his NWO was not perfect. It got out of control, and he let it.

The idea Eric gave out creative control like candy is a myth. Bischoff himself has said the only guy with creative control was Hogan.

I don't deny Eric made flubs. I'm just saying most people don't give him enough credit.

Giving away the results was stupid, and yes he did it and had a little success but it was an overwhelming failure once all those people flipped the channel to watch Mick win the world title.

Absolutely nothing is a success all the time. If something works for a good while and backfires once, that doesn't deem it a failure.

Yes he was a master of hype but execution is the problem, every big chance to cash in he missed. Sting vs Hogan was a Joke. It didn't go anywhere and made WCW look like shit. Goldberg was great but he didn't cash in on a PPV match which would've made MILLIONS, but instead Hogan vs Goldberg happened on TV for free which was an awful business move.

And what about Goldberg vs. DDP at Havoc? Goldberg vs. Nash at StarrCade? After Bill, those two were probably the most over guys in the company. Seems like solid booking to me.

No actually people don't really hammer on Bischoff,

People have said for years, and in this very thread, that Bischoff only accomplished anything due to luck and money. Every success WCW had was coincidental and nothing at all do with him.

That sounds like people are hammering on him.

ECW doesn't matter but you just said above this that Steve Austin was probably a rip off of an ECW character... The guy that vince mcmahon calls the greatest superstar of all time is probably a rip off of an ECW guy....

His beer swilling image is probably a ripoff but Austin got over on his own merits. I love Sandman but he and Steve are in different galaxies when it comes to ringwork and mic skills. Stone Cold got over on those things, not drinking beer.

But ECW didn't matter. They had nothing to do with the Attitude era, they didn't make hardcore wrestling acceptable, they did nothing. Clear bias, ECW did matter, and so did WCW, but then again, Heyman didn't blow millions and millions of Ted Turners money.

I honestly don't know or care about ECW's business aspects People have said Heyman screwed up a ton however and that seems very likely.

Yeah he's just paying him weekly to this day. Yeah that Heyman guys a real idiot.... Doesn't matter at all.

I was using hyperbole.

 

[Arashi]

I've been in the IWC for six years.
Not once in those six years have people stopped bitching about Hulk Hogan. How he couldn't wrestle, how he was overrated, how he somehow buried every superstar he ever so much as looked at.

well anyone that goes off on Hogan is an idiot. I don't like Hogan, never really did but truth is the dude ended up being a major positive for WCW and anyone that can't see that is an idiot.

I was just being rude. I don't think my opinion is fact.

Well it's hard to tell that through a board posting and I apologize.

The idea Eric gave out creative control like candy is a myth. Bischoff himself has said the only guy with creative control was Hogan.

I disagree with this, but I don't know for certain but from what people like Kevin Sullivan said, it was a bit out of control with that and truth being told I believe that with the way things went. I have no proof but that's my opinion and I don't know if I can believe Eric when he's of course going to try and make himself look better....

I don't deny Eric made flubs. I'm just saying most people don't give him enough credit.

I'll agree with that, he did some amazing things for wrestling and sometimes doesn't get the credit he deserves.

Absolutely nothing is a success all the time. If something works for a good while and backfires once, that doesn't deem it a failure.

But when it backfires and blows part of your face off, it's a failure which is exactly what that did.

And what about Goldberg vs. DDP at Havoc? Goldberg vs. Nash at StarrCade? After Bill, those two were probably the most over guys in the company. Seems like solid booking to me.

If by Goldberg vs DDP at Havoc you mean the PPV that was cut short because they ran over on time and ended up losing the company millions of dollars? Yeah the booking was good but the execution was awful, also you went from Nash vs Goldberg to the next day the finger poke of doom. It wasn't exactly genius. And I'd also like to disagree with the two most over guys, but that's an opinion so I won't

People have said for years, and in this very thread, that Bischoff only accomplished anything due to luck and money. Every success WCW had was coincidental and nothing at all do with him.

Well, he signed hogan, nash, and hall..... with savage and others. So clearly they're just idiots and anyone who says he was just lucky is an idiot. Fact is he did alot of good things but he did just as many bad things.

His beer swilling image is probably a ripoff but Austin got over on his own merits. I love Sandman but he and Steve are in different galaxies when it comes to ringwork and mic skills. Stone Cold got over on those things, not drinking beer.

Very truth but to say ECW had no effect is just blatantly ignorant

I honestly don't know or care about ECW's business aspects People have said Heyman screwed up a ton however and that seems very likely.

Heyman couldn't handle money, that was his biggest mistake. Nothing to do with booking.

 

[Nikkolas]

Well you are a very reasonable and polite person. As such I'm sorry for coming off like a jackass. It's just that I like Bisch and I liked WCW. It is infuriating to see him get absolutely zero respect from a great majority of the online wrestling community. How many people online complaining about him would even be wrestling fans without the Monday Night Wars?

So, again, I'm sorry for being such a jerk. I get over emotional.

 

[HBsam31]

Heyman did a lot with very little. I think what he did definitely influenced both companies, and in a way helped kick off the attitude era. Bischoff had the deep pockets, but he did turn WCW into a company that beat WWE in the ratings. I picked Heyman just because he had to claw and scratch for everything he did while Bischoff really had all the funds to do whatever he wanted. This was tough for me, but I admire the underdog.