Elementary School teaching about LGBT?

[CH David]

So I was watching tv today, and I flip on Fox News "Oh gee Fox News, you suck go away". But it was about what is in textbooks and yadda yadda. Well it goes to a segment about how the LGBT (Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender) group(s?) want elementary school teachers to teach their children about different types of families, including the LGBT in Alameda California.

What I gathered throughout the segment is that the children (mostly mentioned at ages 5-7 I think) were spouting slurs at other children. I believe one quote from a mother was "A child kept telling my daughter 'Your mother is a lesbian' so she went in the corner by herself" (probably better thought as a paraphrase). But there was also a father there (not a homosexual) at a town meeting and in an interview, talking about how this is unacceptable for children in elementary school to be taught about such a thing. His thinking is basically that a group of people are forcing the issue, and trying to preach what his daughter should think like, instead of how he is meant to teach her.

So the school district voted, and now "And Tango Makes Three" is now a mandatory curriculum for 2nd graders in the Alameda County school district. For those that don't know, And Tango Makes Three is a book on two real life penguins in New York that are partners. They were noticed to be trying to hatch a rock, so the zookeepers then decided to give them a real egg to hatch, and Tango was hatched and was cared for.

Now Thriller made a thread in here about the LGBT and taking courses or clubs and what not in college. But college is far different from elementary school.

Personally, I could agree with doing it in college, and even as a course in high school. But I think it is very stupid to try and teach kids how to look at people, when they don't even know how to look at people. Young children are so naive to things, that they are oblivious to things right in front of them. And also it is taking part of a parents job away from them. It is a parent's job to instill important, strong, and good values and morals into their children. A teacher shouldn't be given that type of responsibility of having to teach 20-30 or so children that people are different. That is a parent's job, let them raise their own kids.

Also, side-note, kids imitate what they see or hear. They don't know any better unless told otherwise. In my own case, I heard someone say "****" on a television show when I was 7. I repeated it and my dad punished me for it. Or better yet, my brother said "Fuck" (it is currently still not PG yet) the other day, and my nephew said "Daddy you shouldn't say that. Fuck is a bad word." He was instilled that saying fuck is a bad word, but he also got yelled at for saying it himself. Parents need to watch what they say around their children, and be careful of what their children are hearing. If a parent hears their child say "You are gay" or any other slur, they need to punish their child simple as that.

I just feel that a child's (age roughly between 5-8) brain is not developed enough to understand how to look at people when it comes to viewing as gay or straight. They hear something a parent says, and they aren't told it is a bad word or wrong to say, so they imitate it.

So am I wrong in thinking that teaching this sort of thing to 5-8 year olds is a little overboard, and that it would be better suited for high school and/or college? What do you think?

 

[klunderbunker]

Yeah this is where being PC and things of that nature are taken too far. Things such as this need to be left for things like high school or college or even middle school, but no, not 5-7 years old. Children that age can't comprehend things like that yet. Anything sexually related is too indepth for them so early in life. Do you want to try to explain to a 6 year old what a transgender person is? I'm 21 and I'm not 100% sure myself. Anything associated with LGBT is just way too indepth for children of that age, at least in my mind. Wait until they're at least teenagers to ahve this brought up, at least in public schools.

 

[Goo Punch]

It should certainly be tought to young children so it's set in their mind.

Do you think teaching acceptance of the LGBT community would go over better in an elementary school class or a middle/high school class? Teaching it in the early grades has a much better chance of a positive reaction because the younger the person, the more open their mind.

If we want to stop the negative usage of the words "gay" and "***" and such we should teach it early on, not tell a 14 year old to stop using it because 90% of the time their not going care.

 

[CH David]

It should certainly be tought to young children so it's set in their mind.

And just exactly how are they going to comprehend it? Their brains aren't equiped at such a young age to actually know what the fuck is going on.

Do you think teaching acceptance of the LGBT community would go over better in an elementary school class or a middle/high school class? Teaching it in the early grades has a much better chance of a positive reaction because the younger the person, the more open their mind.

I already said, it would be better to teach in high school or college. Don't you read? A child doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. If you actually read the post, you would know that. They spout of what they hear because it is imitatable. Also, like I said previously, if a parent wouldn't be such a pussy and actually punish their child for saying something like that, they wouldn't say it.

If we want to stop the negative usage of the words "gay" and "***" and such we should teach it early on, not tell a 14 year old to stop using it because 90% of the time their not going care.

No shit we should instill it at a young age. Parents, key word here, I hope you understand this concept, it is the parents fucking job to instill in their child good values and morals. Why the fuck should school be doing what parents should already be doing? Also, just because you teach something to a young child doesn't mean they will remember it for life. Hell I don't remember what I was taught 12 years ago in 2nd grade.

It is what a parent should be doing. Children that young have no idea what is happening when it comes to people like LGBT. They don't know the difference. Besides, in school you can't punish people like a parent can. "Oh you go to time out until recess for saying that word"? What the fuck is that? A parent can at least discipline their child, whereas school can't really touch a child.

 

[Tastycles]

I'm not so sure this is a bad thing. If you explain to kids at an early age that having two dads is ok, and just different as opposed to being wrong, then it can nip any bullying the child with two dads might face. I don't particularly care either way, but I don't think there's anything negative in explaining that homosexuality exists and that it isn't a bad thing. There's no need for any graphic explanation of the mechanisms of homosexuality, but there isn't any need for heterosexuality to be explained in such detail either at such an age.

 

[blood and thunder]

It's not so much bad as useless - when I was in Primary School, I knew nothing about sex etc when I was younger - gay or straight. For sure I can see the validity of homsexual relationships being represented as acceptable when kids are old enough for sex education, but doing so at such a young age is kinda a waste.

 

[Razor]

What's the problem? Telling a child that two lesbians or two gays can have a family too is bad? I never knew that. I figured that children should know what is going on in their lives, and when that life includes the possibility of a friend with gay or lesbian parents, they should be taught that that's okay. You know, to remove unnecessary hatred or confusion and the like.

..But if you want to keep your children ignorant of the world around them for as long as you can, go ahead. They're not my children. We're not talking about showing them the beheading of US soldiers by Afghani insurgents here, guys. We're talking about telling a child that two women or two men can raise a child. Which has yet to be disproven, at any rate.

 

[CH David]

What's the problem? Telling a child that two lesbians or two gays can have a family too is bad? I never knew that. I figured that children should know what is going on in their lives, and when that life includes the possibility of a friend with gay or lesbian parents, they should be taught that that's okay. You know, to remove unnecessary hatred or confusion and the like.

..But if you want to keep your children ignorant of the world around them for as long as you can, go ahead. They're not my children. We're not talking about showing them the beheading of US soldiers by Afghani insurgents here, guys. We're talking about telling a child that two women or two men can raise a child. Which has yet to be disproven, at any rate.

Razorback, firstly good to hear from you.

How is it keeping them ignorant of the world around them, when they can't comprehend what is going on? If you tell a child that Mommy or Daddy is leaving, are you also going to tell them that it is because they cheated on their spouse? Kids don't know about being gay or straight, especially not when they are between 5-8 years old. They aren't going to say, "oh you have two daddies, they must be gay". They will notice that there are two fathers or mothers, and just go on playing, not thinking twice about it.

Besides, why is it a school's job to teach children about gay and straight parents? Especially at such a young age. I thought that it was a parent's job to teach their children about the world, and Elementary school to teach about the basics tools of learning, such as writing, reading, math, science, social science, PE, and music. I mean that is what I took in 2nd grade, and I'm not homophobic, nor do I make fun of people for having gay parents.

Also, I never said it was proven or disproven that gay parents can raise children. I know they can, even better than some straight parents. But that isn't the point. The point is people are making it a school matter when it doesn't need to be. It all leads back to parents needing to discipline their children for saying things that are bad, because like I said, 5-8 year olds don't know much, if any at all about people who are gay or straight.

 

[FromTheSouth]

What's the problem? Telling a child that two lesbians or two gays can have a family too is bad? I never knew that. I figured that children should know what is going on in their lives, and when that life includes the possibility of a friend with gay or lesbian parents, they should be taught that that's okay. You know, to remove unnecessary hatred or confusion and the like.

The problem is that this is indoctrination. And what makes you think that every parents wants to teach their child that it is OK for gays to have a family? Some parents are against it. Over half the nation is against gay marriage. Just because you think it's OK, and because I don't care either way, doesn't mean that there are parents who don't think that it is wrong. It is not OK for schools to teach one side of a moral issue. Teaching tolerance never goes well in school. That is the job of the parents.

Some parents want to teach their kids about sex on their own. Some parents actually believe in there being a right and wrong time for kids to learn things. Not every parent puts their child down in front of South Park at the age of five. I think that teaching about homosexuality in elementary is far from appropriate. These kids do not have the maturity level to understand the difference between education and indoctrination. They are taught to accept what authority figures tell them as fact. I do not trust teachers to stick to the facts all of the time.

..But if you want to keep your children ignorant of the world around them for as long as you can, go ahead.

There is a difference between innocence and ignorance. Gay and Lesbian issues are not something for a seven year old to have to worry about.

They're not my children. We're not talking about showing them the beheading of US soldiers by Afghani insurgents here, guys.

This, at least, is a concept that kids understand. There is good and evil in the world. This is what evil does. That is not a foreign concept to children.

We're talking about telling a child that two women or two men can raise a child. Which has yet to be disproven, at any rate.

But you would have to tell them more then why two women are raising a child. Kids ask why. A lot of parents want to make the decision to educate their children in social issues such as this on their own, and indoctrination by the schools is a harmful idea.

 

[Razor]

Razorback, firstly good to hear from you.

Ah. You know how it goes. Glad to be back, though.

How is it keeping them ignorant of the world around them, when they can't comprehend what is going on?

Not comprehend? What part of "Johnny has two mommies. It's okay, it's just different from how I want to raise you." would a child not understand?

If you tell a child that Mommy or Daddy is leaving, are you also going to tell them that it is because they cheated on their spouse?

That's up to the parents. But a child could completely understand that Daddy has to leave because he was dating another Mommy. If the dad doesn't want his kid to come crying about how he's mean and how she doesn't understand how he could do such a thing, here's an idea. Don't cheat.

Kids don't know about being gay or straight, especially not when they are between 5-8 years old.

I would beg to differ. Boys may say they find girls gross and girls may say they think boys are full of cooties, but really. You show me a boy hitting a girl during recess, and I'll show you a boy who is attracted to a girl.

They aren't going to say, "oh you have two daddies, they must be gay". They will notice that there are two fathers or mothers, and just go on playing, not thinking twice about it.

In this day and age, that's not the case. Children are being indoctrinated with the hate their parents possess to an all new level. Sure, it's always existed. But when you interview children in Arkansas and they say two daddies shouldn't raise a child because they'll come out gay..and being gay is bad; you have a problem.

Besides, why is it a school's job to teach children about gay and straight parents?

Schools teach acceptance all the time. Go ahead, call a black student your favorite racial slur or say that all Asians should go back to their own country because this country belongs to the Whites. In elementary school, that'll get you suspended/expelled.

Especially at such a young age. I thought that it was a parent's job to teach their children about the world, and Elementary school to teach about the basics tools of learning, such as writing, reading, math, science, social science, PE, and music. I mean that is what I took in 2nd grade, and I'm not homophobic, nor do I make fun of people for having gay parents.

Well. That's when the parents aren't going around speaking hatred. But if a person raises their child to hate black people, shouldn't the schools step in and try to correct the wrong their parents did? If I were a principal, I sure as hell would do everything I could to teach a child the right way to approach the world. That, of course, being without the hate.

Also, I never said it was proven or disproven that gay parents can raise children. I know they can, even better than some straight parents. But that isn't the point.

That was more of a shot at the people who say it is "scientifically proven" that such a family couldn't raise children correctly. Not at you. Swear.

The point is people are making it a school matter when it doesn't need to be. It all leads back to parents needing to discipline their children for saying things that are bad, because like I said, 5-8 year olds don't know much, if any at all about people who are gay or straight.

There's the problem. You're relying on the parents to teach their children not to hate. It's happened since the earliest days of Man, and it'll keep right on along. I take comfort in the fact that school is the final bastion of defense against views that hate on others. But, of course. I can see the other view.

 

[Razor]

The problem is that this is indoctrination. And what makes you think that every parents wants to teach their child that it is OK for gays to have a family? Some parents are against it. Over half the nation is against gay marriage. Just because you think it's OK, and because I don't care either way, doesn't mean that there are parents who don't think that it is wrong. It is not OK for schools to teach one side of a moral issue. Teaching tolerance never goes well in school. That is the job of the parents.

All I want is tolerance. If the parents can't teach their children that gays and lesbians aren't hell-spawns that will suck their souls dry and rape them, then the schools are really the last place we can do so. I'm not talking about imparting communist ideology or the idea of a new God. I just want the school system to teach children that gays and lesbian parents are just as viable. Which makes sense, considering some of the children in the class may just have lesbian or gay parents.

Some parents want to teach their kids about sex on their own. Some parents actually believe in there being a right and wrong time for kids to learn things. Not every parent puts their child down in front of South Park at the age of five. I think that teaching about homosexuality in elementary is far from appropriate. These kids do not have the maturity level to understand the difference between education and indoctrination. They are taught to accept what authority figures tell them as fact. I do not trust teachers to stick to the facts all of the time.

I can see that. Though, really...what better time to fight against hate then when they're being pushed hate the strongest at home?

I don't really have an argument against teaching children about sex thing, unless you would allow me to argue that telling a child that "Johnny's two mommies aren't any worse or better than your mommy and daddy" isn't telling them that Johnny's parents are scissoring in their room.

There is a difference between innocence and ignorance. Gay and Lesbian issues are not something for a seven year old to have to worry about.

They are when you're in the South, and elementary school children are already spouting hate against the gays and lesbians. Maybe it's not a problem in Texas. In Arkansas it's a different story.

This, at least, is a concept that kids understand. There is good and evil in the world. This is what evil does. That is not a foreign concept to children.

Then why can't we argue "Johnny's two mommies aren't any worse people than your mommy and daddy. In fact, neither is Johnny. So don't pick on the kid."

But you would have to tell them more then why two women are raising a child. Kids ask why.

"The two mommies thought that they could raise a child just as well as your mommy and daddy could." Does that not cut it?

A lot of parents want to make the decision to educate their children in social issues such as this on their own, and indoctrination by the schools is a harmful idea.

Sure. But when a child is hating on Johnny because his parents are gay and the child is encouraged from home to do this (cough*Arkansas*cough) the school should step in if it has to. You can't just let children run around and tease a child who made no mistake of his own.

 

[FromTheSouth]

All I want is tolerance. If the parents can't teach their children that gays and lesbians aren't hell-spawns that will suck their souls dry and rape them, then the schools are really the last place we can do so. I'm not talking about imparting communist ideology or the idea of a new God. I just want the school system to teach children that gays and lesbian parents are just as viable. Which makes sense, considering some of the children in the class may just have lesbian or gay parents.

But it doesn't stop there. "Why aren't Johnny's two mommies married?"

"Because an evil right wing machine led by Dick Cheney and Sarah Palin won't let them be happy. They think that God hates homosexuals."

"I understand."

This is indoctrination. I do not trust the education system to teach moral ideas. Neither does Congress. School prayer ring a bell? I don't mind tolerance and equality being taught to older kids, but seven year olds don't need to know this stuff.

When you teach a seven year old about lesbians and gays they will see them as someone different. Why point that out before they can take the thought to the next level?



[quote[I can see that. Though, really...what better time to fight against hate then when they're being pushed hate the strongest at home? [/quote]

Unfortunately, it is not the job of the schools to preach to the kids. It is to teach them to read, write, add, subtract, etc. Like I said, a little diversity training for high school student prepares them for the world. For an eight year old, it teaches them someone is different. Young kids don't see different and understand that they are still equal. All they see is different, and that could be dangerous.

I don't really have an argument against teaching children about sex thing, unless you would allow me to argue that telling a child that "Johnny's two mommies aren't any worse or better than your mommy and daddy" isn't telling them that Johnny's parents are scissoring in their room.

An individual teacher might think that the limit for "Why" answers is a bit further than a parent does. I think we should keep kids as innocent as they can for as long as they can.

They are when you're in the South, and elementary school children are already spouting hate against the gays and lesbians. Maybe it's not a problem in Texas. In Arkansas it's a different story.

That's a shame. It's also not the school's job to tell parents how to parent.

Then why can't we argue "Johnny's two mommies aren't any worse people than your mommy and daddy. In fact, neither is Johnny. So don't pick on the kid."

Or, if they don't tell everyone Johnny is different, then he won't get picked on either.

"The two mommies thought that they could raise a child just as well as your mommy and daddy could." Does that not cut it?

Why does he have two moms?

Because they are lesbian.

What is lesbian?

It's when a woman loves another woman?

My mom loves my sister, are they lesbian?

Oh no, it's when a woman loves another woman like your mommy loves your daddy.

Why?

Because they are attracted to women.

Why?

Well, there is an incredibly loose connection between the size of a certain section of the brain and who you love.

So, lesbians have smaller brains?

No, just one part of the brain.

Why?

Because that's how they were made.

Why?

Because that's what God wanted.

Oh no, we just talked about God. Now what?

Sure. But when a child is hating on Johnny because his parents are gay and the child is encouraged from home to do this (cough*Arkansas*cough) the school should step in if it has to. You can't just let children run around and tease a child who made no mistake of his own.

I think the better solution is to not point out the difference at all.

 

[Razor]

But it doesn't stop there. "Why aren't Johnny's two mommies married?"

"Because an evil right wing machine led by Dick Cheney and Sarah Palin won't let them be happy. They think that God hates homosexuals."

"I understand."

..You're arguing extremes!

..But that's exactly what I'm arguing in my own posts. Damn it.

This is indoctrination. I do not trust the education system to teach moral ideas. Neither does Congress. School prayer ring a bell? I don't mind tolerance and equality being taught to older kids, but seven year olds don't need to know this stuff.

I think one of my classes in AGS touched upon this. What is indoctrination? You could argue that the idea of 2+2=4 is being indoctrinated into our children, because you believe 2+2= Fish. The idea of indoctrination varies, and the only way to avoid it all together is to take social issues directly out of school classrooms.

..But then you have the problem of teaching History classes without allowing the children to identify with the social norms of the time. The Civil War doesn't make much sense if you don't realize that the South was fighting because they didn't like Abraham Lincoln and Lincoln was fighting to make the Union whole again.

When you teach a seven year old about lesbians and gays they will see them as someone different. Why point that out before they can take the thought to the next level?

When the students make that distinction themselves because their parents have taught them that gays are evil, I argue we should step them and tell them differently.

Unfortunately, it is not the job of the schools to preach to the kids. It is to teach them to read, write, add, subtract, etc. Like I said, a little diversity training for high school student prepares them for the world. For an eight year old, it teaches them someone is different. Young kids don't see different and understand that they are still equal. All they see is different, and that could be dangerous.

Which is why I argue that the schools should step in and tell them that Johnny's two mommies aren't really that different after all. They love Johnny just as much as your mom and dad do.

An individual teacher might think that the limit for "Why" answers is a bit further than a parent does. I think we should keep kids as innocent as they can for as long as they can.

Then you'll get people like my jackass father who didn't give me the Birds and the Bees talk. I learned everything I know about sex from TV and my friends. Hell, I'm 19 and the most my father has told me about sex is "Watch out for women who want to have sex with you..they're after the money you'll make as an engineer." Which is insulting in so many other ways.

..But I see your point.

That's a shame. It's also not the school's job to tell parents how to parent.

Then how are these children going to grow up? Hating on gays and lesbians? I would rather the school step in and end a bigot before he becomes a bigot with a beer belly and a loud bullhorn. Easier on the ears and eyes, you see.

Or, if they don't tell everyone Johnny is different, then he won't get picked on either.

What about when the parents do it before the teachers even mention the GBLT community? If Johnny is picked on because the other kid's parents tell him that Johnny's parents are evil because they're gay and raising a child, should the teachers just stand aside and let that sort of talk slide?

Why does he have two moms?

Because they are lesbian.

What is lesbian?

It's when a woman loves another woman?

My mom loves my sister, are they lesbian?

Oh no, it's when a woman loves another woman like your mommy loves your daddy.

Why?

Because they are attracted to women.

Why?

Well, there is an incredibly loose connection between the size of a certain section of the brain and who you love.

So, lesbians have smaller brains?

No, just one part of the brain.

Why?

Because that's how they were made.

Why?

Because that's what God wanted.

Oh no, we just talked about God. Now what?

Point taken. But the conversation doesn't have to go that far. Not at all. ..Though not all teachers are the most tactful, so you can take that how it goes.

I think the better solution is to not point out the difference at all.

Which would be great if the parents weren't already pointing out the difference in between yelling about how Obama is a Kenyan anti-christ.

..Okay, that was a stereotypical. But my point stands.

 

[FromTheSouth]

..You're arguing extremes!

..But that's exactly what I'm arguing in my own posts. Damn it.

Erin Andrews is on the television. I love her.

Anyway, this is an issue where the extremes are sincerely the norm. It's all or nothing. You can't say Johnny has two mommies and that makes him the same as you, so don't pick on him. I think you have to teach why he has two mommies, and a six or seven year old just doesn't have the processing power to understand all the ins and outs (or lack thereof Sorry.) of what needs to be taught for even the most basic understanding.

I guess my point is that there are some things schools shouldn't teach. College art classes have nude models because college students are more mature than high school students. High school health classes have "the slide show" because high school students are more mature than middle school kids. I wouldn't mine 13-14 year olds learning tolerance and diversity, because this is the age where the lessons of the parents manifest themselves. Before that, if someone is picking on little Johnny, you can separate that one kid and threaten him with detention. At that point, it's just a kid repeating what his parents say. You can send something home to the parents telling them how inappropriate it is for their child to talk like that in school. At 13-14 kids process that information and make decisions on their own behavior. That's when you sit them down and explain to them that gay people are people who can be just as productive, loving, and intelligent as everyone else. They are not evil, they are not going to abduct you, they have problems and concerns and joys and goals just like you, and do not deserve to be treated any less as well as anyone else.

I think one of my classes in AGS touched upon this. What is indoctrination? You could argue that the idea of 2+2=4 is being indoctrinated into our children, because you believe 2+2= Fish.

But, one is pure idiocy and the other has been a fact for like, ten billion years. Look, I think gay people should be allowed to adopt, but I am against gay marriage. Both of those are opinions. For the sake of the debate, let's say indoctrination is teaching an opinion as fact, especially to those too young to understand the difference, or in a state of mind that would be easily influenced.

The idea of indoctrination varies, and the only way to avoid it all together is to take social issues directly out of school classrooms.

Or, you could let the teacher drive the discussion without giving an opinion on either side. Asking questions and letting students enter into a moderated discourse is a perfectly acceptable means of addressing social issues, especially those without black and white answers.

..But then you have the problem of teaching History classes without allowing the children to identify with the social norms of the time. The Civil War doesn't make much sense if you don't realize that the South was fighting because they didn't like Abraham Lincoln and Lincoln was fighting to make the Union whole again.

The Civil War was more a role of industry than it was a war of moral superiority. Lincoln said that if he could reunite the nation without freeing the slaves he would.

http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.749/article_detail.asp

That is what should be taught in high schools.

But, more to the point, the difference exists in that slavery was a government sanctioning a violation of human rights, whereas the indoctrination of students, especially those at a young age, is not about a government sanctioning oppression. It is about someone telling you how to think and feel. It is the government legislating thought, which is not what a free society does. Did you ever have a class that told you what to think, or did it teach you how to form reasoned opinions, you know, before college. Colleges try to indoctrinate students, and that's how idiots like Ward Churchill get followings. Delaying this process seems like a good idea to me.

When the students make that distinction themselves because their parents have taught them that gays are evil, I argue we should step them and tell them differently.

Good, but a seven year old thinks that way because mommy told him too. Get them at age 14, when they start to rebel. At that point, the idea that mommy is wrong piques a kid's interest and he will be more receptive to the idea. All a child notices at seven or eight is that they are being told someone is different and that someone is telling them their parents are wrong. Neither of these lead to positive outcomes. Just delay it a bit.

Which is why I argue that the schools should step in and tell them that Johnny's two mommies aren't really that different after all. They love Johnny just as much as your mom and dad do.

OK, give me the lesson plan here. How do we go about this. Johnny has to mommies. They love him very much. They are different, but they should be treated the same.

Children don't accept that. Why are they different? What makes them different? Meanwhile, Johnny is wondering what he did to deserve being singled out. The other kids notice that Johnny is apprehensive, so they ask him questions. He doesn't know the answers. He gets embarrassed in the classroom and the school yard.

Or...

We wait till the kids are older, and they have heard something about homosexuals. They have some preconceived notions. The positive ones can be reinforced, and the negative ones can have holes shot through them. Advanced reasoning ability makes it easier to teach someone. It doesn't become an indoctrination where a child is told his parents are wrong, which, at a young age, is Earth shattering.

Then you'll get people like my jackass father who didn't give me the Birds and the Bees talk. I learned everything I know about sex from TV and my friends. Hell, I'm 19 and the most my father has told me about sex is "Watch out for women who want to have sex with you..they're after the money you'll make as an engineer." Which is insulting in so many other ways.

OK, that's a shame, but it was also his choice. Individually, he didn't think you were ready, but once you felt you were, you went out and learned on your own. Still, the education was age appropriate. I bet school filled in some blanks too. I just don't think your dad was comfortable saying that from his experience, girls like it from behind.

..But I see your point.

I'm glad someone does.

Then how are these children going to grow up? Hating on gays and lesbians? I would rather the school step in and end a bigot before he becomes a bigot with a beer belly and a loud bullhorn. Easier on the ears and eyes, you see.

Because school has done such a great job of ending bigotry since the civil rights movement. Didn't you just talk about how Arkansas was still full of bigots? You're putting far too much faith in the US school system.

What about when the parents do it before the teachers even mention the GBLT community? If Johnny is picked on because the other kid's parents tell him that Johnny's parents are evil because they're gay and raising a child, should the teachers just stand aside and let that sort of talk slide?

No a teacher and principal should take some action and tell the guilty children to stop. They should tell them that Johnny's parents are Johnny's parents and his picking on Johnny isn't going to change that. They should then send a letter home telling the parents to get their child in line, or else the child will be disciplined in the school. At that age it's a lack of discipline, not bigotry that causes bullying.

Point taken. But the conversation doesn't have to go that far. Not at all. ..Though not all teachers are the most tactful, so you can take that how it goes.

I agree with taking it how it goes. But it seems that a reasoned, thoughtful conversation, with an age appropriate audience would be a more effective means of achieving tolerance, as opposed to telling a six year old that his parents are wrong. At that point, you might as well tell him Santa isn't real too. Let's let kids be kids.

Which would be great if the parents weren't already pointing out the difference in between yelling about how Obama is a Kenyan anti-christ.

He's not?

..Okay, that was a stereotypical. But my point stands.

And that's fine. I think most of our parents had some preconceived notions about race, sexuality, girls, music, TV, movies, comic books, sports, hair, or clothes that we rebelled against. Let's let this and future generations do the same. A little rebellion is never a bad thing. Besides, this is a one generation fix. Once we start having kids (and by the time Will has nine), this won't be much of an issue anymore. There will be a new group looking to make strides in equality for our children's children to learn to accept.

 

[Goo Punch]

And just exactly how are they going to comprehend it? Their brains aren't equiped at such a young age to actually know what the fuck is going on.

So you can teach a child to read and write but not to accept someone who has two moms? Um...ok.

I already said, it would be better to teach in high school or college. Don't you read?

And I said I disagreed. Don't you read? Or are you still in elementary school and can't comprehend anything? That must be it.

No shit we should instill it at a young age. Parents, key word here, I hope you understand this concept, it is the parents fucking job to instill in their child good values and morals. Why the fuck should school be doing what parents should already be doing? Also, just because you teach something to a young child doesn't mean they will remember it for life. Hell I don't remember what I was taught 12 years ago in 2nd grade.

Of course, parents SHOULD do it but not all of them do. Where do you live? Seasame Street? Next door to the Brady's? School is there to teach children. I don't know what you don't understand about the concept...

And while I'm sure you don't remember what you were tought in 2nd grade, most people do.

 

[Goo Punch]

The problem is that this is indoctrination. And what makes you think that every parents wants to teach their child that it is OK for gays to have a family? Some parents are against it. Over half the nation is against gay marriage. Just because you think it's OK, and because I don't care either way, doesn't mean that there are parents who don't think that it is wrong. It is not OK for schools to teach one side of a moral issue. Teaching tolerance never goes well in school. That is the job of the parents.

And some parents don't like Black people so we shouldn't teach Black History either? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean a school shoudn't teach it. If you're intolerant of something, don't send your kid to a public school, homeschool them and teach them what you want. If schools only tought things that every parent agreed on, class would last about 5 minutes.

 

[FromTheSouth]

How is that indoctrination? Being black isn't a lifestyle choice. No one has to explain to anyone why Johnny has two black parents.

Homosexuality is a lot more difficult to explain than race. An issue like race is easy to explain. You can see race. You can't see gay. There is so much more upper level thought involved in understanding gay adoption and alternative lifestyles.

But, I'll go with it. Please, oh please, tell me why it is the school's responsibility to even teach tolerance? Is it because not all parents will do it? Well, in that case, not all parents teach how to balance a check book. Not all parents teach a child how cook. Should these be required courses too? Cooking and balancing a checkbook are just as important to one in adulthood as tolerance, and I would argue moreso, because those are daily activities, whereas an issue like tolerance is only an issue in a presented situation.

And class would be five minutes if we taught knowledge that was universally accepted, huh? I'm thinking that history, that can be proven takes a little longer than five minutes. What about the laws of math? How about gravity? What was your point exactly?

And, Goo Punch, at what point did I say the schools should never teach diversity and tolerance? Do you really feel it is necessary to take one statement I made out of context and try to make a name that way? I said that schools should teach tolerance and diversity, just not in elementary, not to seven year olds. Are you going to try and tell me that is age appropriate material? How are you going to prove that? Let me guess, by saying that some people are prejudiced? So? Is it not their right to be? Society evolves on it's own.

The government, in this case the schools, cannot force social evolution. That has never worked. When the government tried to outlaw slavery, half a million people died. We need to leave the evolution of society to the people. A small group of thoughtful people can change America. In fact, that is the only thing that ever has. Our grandparents were racist and controlling. Our parents rebelled against that. That is how we got Woodstock and the Civil Rights movement. Our parents thought that tacit consent and conformity would get you further in life. We rebelled, and birthed this new movement for acceptance of everyone, i.e. that gay rights movement. Our kids will rebel against us in a way, and society will evolve again.

 

[Razor]

Dammit. You went the reasoned, teach them in Junior High route. I fear I have been vanquished. However, I will milk this for one last post. I have to get my post average up, after all.

Anyway, this is an issue where the extremes are sincerely the norm. It's all or nothing. You can't say Johnny has two mommies and that makes him the same as you, so don't pick on him. I think you have to teach why he has two mommies, and a six or seven year old just doesn't have the processing power to understand all the ins and outs (or lack thereof Sorry.) of what needs to be taught for even the most basic understanding.

I guess my point is that there are some things schools shouldn't teach. College art classes have nude models because college students are more mature than high school students. High school health classes have "the slide show" because high school students are more mature than middle school kids. I wouldn't mine 13-14 year olds learning tolerance and diversity, because this is the age where the lessons of the parents manifest themselves. Before that, if someone is picking on little Johnny, you can separate that one kid and threaten him with detention. At that point, it's just a kid repeating what his parents say. You can send something home to the parents telling them how inappropriate it is for their child to talk like that in school. At 13-14 kids process that information and make decisions on their own behavior. That's when you sit them down and explain to them that gay people are people who can be just as productive, loving, and intelligent as everyone else. They are not evil, they are not going to abduct you, they have problems and concerns and joys and goals just like you, and do not deserve to be treated any less as well as anyone else.

Well. For the record, I wasn't condoning teaching sex to 5 year olds. That's something the evil socialists want, if you believe everything Limbaugh and Beck tell you. I was merely arguing, perhaps rather naively, that you could teach children that lesbian mothers are fine without going into the subject of being gay and that big can of worms.

I'm all for what you propose, though. 13-14 is probably the perfect age to teach them this topic, to tell you the truth.

But, one is pure idiocy and the other has been a fact for like, ten billion years. Look, I think gay people should be allowed to adopt, but I am against gay marriage. Both of those are opinions. For the sake of the debate, let's say indoctrination is teaching an opinion as fact, especially to those too young to understand the difference, or in a state of mind that would be easily influenced.

Yeah...I have a confession to make. I was just being difficult.

Or, you could let the teacher drive the discussion without giving an opinion on either side. Asking questions and letting students enter into a moderated discourse is a perfectly acceptable means of addressing social issues, especially those without black and white answers.

What reasoned answers to you forsee in this debate? Gays shouldn't be parents because they bone each other in the ass?

The Civil War was more a role of industry than it was a war of moral superiority. Lincoln said that if he could reunite the nation without freeing the slaves he would.

http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.749/article_detail.asp

That is what should be taught in high schools.

Right. I was going for a rather fast and abridged reason for the War. Lincoln was all about letting Missouri keep her slaves.

But, more to the point, the difference exists in that slavery was a government sanctioning a violation of human rights, whereas the indoctrination of students, especially those at a young age, is not about a government sanctioning oppression. It is about someone telling you how to think and feel. It is the government legislating thought, which is not what a free society does. Did you ever have a class that told you what to think, or did it teach you how to form reasoned opinions, you know, before college.

I don't see how telling a child not to hate gays and lesbians is indoctrination. Is it any different than telling the children they can't hate black kids just because they're black?

Colleges try to indoctrinate students, and that's how idiots like Ward Churchill get followings. Delaying this process seems like a good idea to me.

UofA has been rather innocent of that, from what I can tell. Unless you count some of the rather hilariously left-wing and right-wing teachers we have. I would hope that the students are in college because they're smart enough to point out the crazily left and say "Yeah, you're nutso." However..knowing America...

Good, but a seven year old thinks that way because mommy told him too. Get them at age 14, when they start to rebel. At that point, the idea that mommy is wrong piques a kid's interest and he will be more receptive to the idea. All a child notices at seven or eight is that they are being told someone is different and that someone is telling them their parents are wrong. Neither of these lead to positive outcomes. Just delay it a bit.

OK, give me the lesson plan here. How do we go about this. Johnny has to mommies. They love him very much. They are different, but they should be treated the same.

Children don't accept that. Why are they different? What makes them different? Meanwhile, Johnny is wondering what he did to deserve being singled out. The other kids notice that Johnny is apprehensive, so they ask him questions. He doesn't know the answers. He gets embarrassed in the classroom and the school yard.

Or...

We wait till the kids are older, and they have heard something about homosexuals. They have some preconceived notions. The positive ones can be reinforced, and the negative ones can have holes shot through them. Advanced reasoning ability makes it easier to teach someone. It doesn't become an indoctrination where a child is told his parents are wrong, which, at a young age, is Earth shattering.

Yeah, yeah. Great use of an effective point there FTS. Damn it.

OK, that's a shame, but it was also his choice. Individually, he didn't think you were ready, but once you felt you were, you went out and learned on your own. Still, the education was age appropriate. I bet school filled in some blanks too. I just don't think your dad was comfortable saying that from his experience, girls like it from behind.

Yeah. But from my own experience I would say that the school has to step in and teach areas that the parents refuse to teach. If tolerance and sexual education are those areas, then it is the school's responsibility.

I'm glad someone does.

Have you not been getting any love from Xfear when I was gone? I'm sorry.

Because school has done such a great job of ending bigotry since the civil rights movement. Didn't you just talk about how Arkansas was still full of bigots? You're putting far too much faith in the US school system.

Damn it.

No a teacher and principal should take some action and tell the guilty children to stop. They should tell them that Johnny's parents are Johnny's parents and his picking on Johnny isn't going to change that. They should then send a letter home telling the parents to get their child in line, or else the child will be disciplined in the school. At that age it's a lack of discipline, not bigotry that causes bullying.

That'll just make the parent pissed off that the school is saying their little boy can't tell the heathen gays they're going to hell. But really, I don't see anything else the school can do.

I agree with taking it how it goes. But it seems that a reasoned, thoughtful conversation, with an age appropriate audience would be a more effective means of achieving tolerance, as opposed to telling a six year old that his parents are wrong. At that point, you might as well tell him Santa isn't real too. Let's let kids be kids.

Damn it. I forgot the whole "My parents are wrong?!?! *Cue Earth crashing down around me*" revelation of the pre-teen years.

He's not?

I know, right? He just looks like your generic American Nazi. Black skin, money, success, and all.

And that's fine. I think most of our parents had some preconceived notions about race, sexuality, girls, music, TV, movies, comic books, sports, hair, or clothes that we rebelled against. Let's let this and future generations do the same. A little rebellion is never a bad thing. Besides, this is a one generation fix. Once we start having kids (and by the time Will has nine), this won't be much of an issue anymore. There will be a new group looking to make strides in equality for our children's children to learn to accept.

With this, I concede the post. I need to go shake off this ring rust with some noob in the WWE section.

 

[CH David]

So you can teach a child to read and write but not to accept someone who has two moms? Um...ok.

Really, because kids are mature enough to handle a topic such as having gay parents? Are you really trying to say that?

And I said disagreed. Don't you read? Or are you still in elementary school and can't comprehend anything? That must be it.

Actually I do read. You never said "I disagree". But let me go back and check, here it is.

It should certainly be tought to young children so it's set in their mind.

Do you think teaching acceptance of the LGBT community would go over better in an elementary school class or a middle/high school class? Teaching it in the early grades has a much better chance of a positive reaction because the younger the person, the more open their mind.

If we want to stop the negative usage of the words "gay" and "***" and such we should teach it early on, not tell a 14 year old to stop using it because 90% of the time their not going care.

Yeah, I don't see anything in here that says "I disagree". So you should learn to recall what you actually say. And if you are going to question my intelligence or level of education, I am a sophomore in college. So you can take your "elementary school and not be able to comprehend anything" stance and shove it.

Of course, parents SHOULD do it but not all of them do. Where do you live? Seasame Street? Next door to the Brady's? School is there to teach children. I don't know what you don't understand about the concept...

Actually I live in a very diverse suburb of Chicago. So don't try to belittle me.

Yes, elementary school is meant to teach children. But not about this kind of situation. How is it a school's responsibility to teach kids about gay and straight? I get what Razorback is talking about, because it is if parents are teaching how to hate, and not teach tolerance, then it would be okay. But he lives in Arkansas, and I am not trying to stereotype the south, but the south is different than Illinois, and every otheven he said kids that young are spouting this off. Kids in other places aren't spouting off, "you have two mommies, that is bad, stay away from me". Where do you live to tell me what the fuck little kids say?

By the way, I think you need to go back to school and learn to spell. It is Sesame Street.

And while I'm sure you don't remember what you were tought in 2nd grade, most people do.

I remember the main things, how to read, write, add, subtract, geography. But I don't remember ever having to learn about world and country issues such as war or people having gay parents when I was in 2nd grade. Are you going to tell me you learned about kids that had gay parents when you were in 2nd grade?

High school or college is the way to go when talking about LGBT situations. Kids are so naive, that they don't realize things in front of them unless you point it out to them. My 4 year old nephew, notice 4 going on 5, doesn't have the mindset to comprehend gay or straight, and he is actually a pretty smart kid. What makes you think that other kids that age can? It is a parent's job to instill good morals. It is too extreme of a situation to make school teach about gay parents. If you actually think that a teacher can teach better than a parent on such a subject, you are mistaken.

 

[Goo Punch]

Being black isn't a lifestyle choice.

And neither is homosexuality. Sure, there's some people that believe it is but there's also people that believe women aren't equal to men but we still teach Women's right's don't we?

But, I'll go with it. Please, oh please, tell me why it is the school's responsibility to even teach tolerance? Is it because not all parents will do it? Well, in that case, not all parents teach how to balance a check book. Not all parents teach a child how cook. Should these be required courses too? Cooking and balancing a checkbook are just as important to one in adulthood as tolerance, and I would argue moreso, because those are daily activities, whereas an issue like tolerance is only an issue in a presented situation.

Umm...I don't know if things have changed or it's a regional thing but both cooking (Home Ec.) and balancing a checkbook (Economics/Math) were required courses when I went to school. Not in 2nd grade of course because having 7 year olds using a stove and knives is obviously dangerous and there's no need for an 8 year old to balance a checkbook but when the time came, both classes were given. Saying a second grader shouldn't be tought tolerance because they don't yet get to chop onions is asinine.

And class would be five minutes if we taught knowledge that was universally accepted, huh? I'm thinking that history, that can be proven takes a little longer than five minutes. What about the laws of math? How about gravity? What was your point exactly?

Yeah, because nobody has any problems with the things tought during History class. Black History is always agreed upon by everyone. Oh and evolution. If schools only tought things all parents agreed on, you really don't think someone would complain that teaching about war is too violent? You don't think anyone would complain about teaching the "moon landing"? What about 9-11? Yeah, everyone sure has the same opinion on that. Come on, there's always someone that has a problem with something.

And, Goo Punch, at what point did I say the schools should never teach diversity and tolerance? Do you really feel it is necessary to take one statement I made out of context and try to make a name that way? I said that schools should teach tolerance and diversity, just not in elementary, not to seven year olds. Are you going to try and tell me that is age appropriate material? How are you going to prove that? Let me guess, by saying that some people are prejudiced? So? Is it not their right to be? Society evolves on it's own.

It's quite simple. Because 7 is generally considered to be the age of reason. Where a child becomes capable of moral responsibility. So of course that's when we should start teaching them "right and wrong".

 

[Goo Punch]

Really, because kids are mature enough to handle a topic such as having gay parents? Are you really trying to say that?

Yes, I'm really trying to say that. What do you think the same-sex parents of children do? Does one wear a dress until the kid's in college?

Actually I do read. You never said "I disagree". But let me go back and check, here it is.


Yeah, I don't see anything in here that says "I disagree". So you should learn to recall what you actually say. And if you are going to question my intelligence or level of education, I am a sophomore in college. So you can take your "elementary school and not be able to comprehend anything" stance and shove it.

I didn't say I said the words "I disagree", you put that in quotes, not I. I said I disagreed because I gave my opinion that was different than yours. And I was being sarcastic with the elementary school comment. I was just making fun of your stance that nobody in elementary school can comprehend anything.

Actually I live in a very diverse suburb of Chicago. So don't try to belittle me.

Yes, elementary school is meant to teach children. But not about this kind of situation. How is it a school's responsibility to teach kids about gay and straight? I get what Razorback is talking about, because it is if parents are teaching how to hate, and not teach tolerance, then it would be okay. But he lives in Arkansas, and I am not trying to stereotype the south, but the south is different than Illinois, and every otheven he said kids that young are spouting this off. Kids in other places aren't spouting off, "you have two mommies, that is bad, stay away from me". Where do you live to tell me what the fuck little kids say?

LOL Again the sarcasm went over your head. So to be clear, I don't actually think you live on Sesame Street, I just think you've lived a very sheltered life.

Oh and I live in the Chicago suburbs as well, so that's why I can tell you "what the fuck little kids say".

Are you going to tell me you learned about kids that had gay parents when you were in 2nd grade?

Umm...no, I'm not...that's kinda what the topic is about. Some people think that should be changed. Try and keep up.

High school or college is the way to go when talking about LGBT situations. Kids are so naive, that they don't realize things in front of them unless you point it out to them. My 4 year old nephew, notice 4 going on 5, doesn't have the mindset to comprehend gay or straight, and he is actually a pretty smart kid. What makes you think that other kids that age can? It is a parent's job to instill good morals. It is too extreme of a situation to make school teach about gay parents. If you actually think that a teacher can teach better than a parent on such a subject, you are mistaken.

7 is the age of reason. That's when "right or wrong" should be tought. I would hope a college student already knows the difference...

 

[FromTheSouth]

And neither is homosexuality.

Please offer me proof of this. I'm tired of this debate. It's been raging for two weeks in here, and I am the only one who has offered and science on the matter. Everyone else, including you, cites unnamed articles and mass speculation. But let's assume that you are right. Being gay and living as an open gay person are two different things. Being gay is one thing, supposedly biologic. But living as openly gay person with a partner and an adopted child IS A FUCKING CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you understand now?

Sure, there's some people that believe it is

Including Dr. LaVay, the guy who supposedly discovered this bilogic link between sexuality and the hypothalamus. He doesn't believe that biology is the determining factor in sexuality, yet he's crdited with discovering it. But, hey, why let facts and testimony stand in the way of a good rant, right?

but there's also people that believe women aren't equal to men but we still teach Women's right's don't we?

Ok, you can continue to give shitty examples, but you're missing the point. Did you learn about women's suffrage in second grade? No. And if you tell me you did, you're a liar. The issues that center around how we celebrate our differences are taught to older students. You don't want to point differences out to young children, because they equate different with scary or bad, even if you tell them differently. Elementary is too young to teach human sexuality, why is this so hard for you to understand?

Umm...I don't know if things have changed or it's a regional thing but both cooking (Home Ec.) and balancing a checkbook (Economics/Math) were required courses when I went to school. Not in 2nd grade of course because having 7 year olds using a stove and knives is obviously dangerous and there's no need for an 8 year old to balance a checkbook but when the time came, both classes were given.

Right...when the time came. You don't seem to understand that teaching people things at the right time is how the education system survives. Maybe we should start giving calculus exams to kindergartners.

Saying a second grader shouldn't be tought tolerance because they don't yet get to chop onions is asinine.

Good. No one fucking said that. What I said is that kitchen and financial skills are used more in real life, but not required. How is that anywhere close to the horrible generalization you made? I shouldn't even respond any more, but I will. Will you give me a reason why it is a good idea to indoctrinate seven year olds into this tolerant movement? Why can't kids be kids. Do you not think that not pointing out differences is between people will serve to keep kids from being picked on? Do you not think that waiting to teach kids about human sexuality allows them to be innocent children? Do you not have faith in teachers enough to allow them discipline children on a case by case basis instead of sitting everyone down and calling out the one kid in the class with gay parents?

Yeah, because nobody has any problems with the things tought during History class. Black History is always agreed upon by everyone. Oh and evolution.

But, you see, these things can be proven through documents or the fossil record. And racism is not a good reason to not teach something. What makes you think that it is bigotry that keeps me from wanting this taught in elementary. What the fuck makes you think that I am a homophobe? I mean, following your derailed train of reason, I have to be a homophobe because I want this information to be left out of elementary. All you do is give reasons why the information should be taught in schools. I agree. Just not elementary schools.

If schools only tought things all parents agreed on, you really don't think someone would complain that teaching about war is too violent? You don't think anyone would complain about teaching the "moon landing"? What about 9-11? Yeah, everyone sure has the same opinion on that. Come on, there's always someone that has a problem with something.

OK, you can teach war without talking about dismembered bodies. The rebels won Valley Forge because of a brave winter crossing of the Delaware River. Wow, I just taught some violence there, huh? The moon landing happened. If you think it didn't then you are gullible, weak minded jackass, and I would tell my mother the same thing. If you think it was faked, get a clue man. 9/11 Conspiracies catch people who are looking for anything to latch onto to be anti-government because they think it's cool. It happened, get over it. The government shows you literally tons of paperwork and you say it must be faked. Popular Mechanics brings in experts from Cal Tech and MIT to disprove Loose Change and you say they're liars. You're just looking to latch on to a movement to feel a sense of belonging because you feel your government let you down. I understand. It must suck to live in that much self-pity. Did you have an on topic point here? Where you ever going to tell me why to teach this in ELEMENTARY school to fucking SEVEN year olds?

It's quite simple. Because 7 is generally considered to be the age of reason.

Really? So seven year olds should vote, be allowed to marry, move out of their parents house, buy smokes, and go to war huh? This is idiocy at it's finest. The age of seven if when children start being able to reason. Please, let's combine this burgeoning mental ability, looking to grasp on to ideals with the most idealistic of issues. That won't lead to a giant disaster. The age of seven if called the age of reason because it's when kids start to be able to reason, not because they can reason on a high level.

Where a child becomes capable of moral responsibility. So of course that's when we should start teaching them "right and wrong".

OK, so what about being gay is right and wrong? Is this an issue with a black and white answer? Should we be tolerant or intolerant of everyone in the world? Seven year olds are starting to develop in this area, but they still can't function in grey areas. They understand good and evil, but try to explain an anti-hero to a second grader. You'll lose them.

 

[Goo Punch]

But let's assume that you are right. Being gay and living as an open gay person are two different things. Being gay is one thing, supposedly biologic. But living as openly gay person with a partner and an adopted child IS A FUCKING CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you understand now?

And "being Black" and "acting Black" are also two different things. You can be Black and not listen to rap. You can be Black and speak proper English. You can be Black and not wear baggy clothes. Those are all CHOICES. So are you saying it's ok to discriminate against African-American's who make those choices? Your stance is that if your bigotry is based on choices, it's ok? Interesting.

But, hey, why let facts and testimony stand in the way of a good rant, right?

I guess. That's why after hearing actual gay people tell you IT'S NOT A CHOICE you still continue to get on your red, white, and blue soapbox and scream "God Bless America" to anyone who will listen.

Ok, you can continue to give shitty examples, but you're missing the point. Did you learn about women's suffrage in second grade? No. And if you tell me you did, you're a liar. The issues that center around how we celebrate our differences are taught to older students. You don't want to point differences out to young children, because they equate different with scary or bad, even if you tell them differently. Elementary is too young to teach human sexuality, why is this so hard for you to understand?

No, you're missing the point. So let me try and make it clear for you: Currently there is a problem with anti-Gay sentiments. A proposed solution is to start teaching tolerance to children at a younger age. Nobody is saying we should tell kids how to use a strap-on and where to buy lube. All people are saying is to simply tell children that a child with two moms or two dads is just as normal as you. I seriously don't see how anyone could be against that.

Right...when the time came. You don't seem to understand that teaching people things at the right time is how the education system survives. Maybe we should start giving calculus exams to kindergartners.

Yes, this is exactly what I said. You just have kind of a skewed opinion on when the "right times" come.

Will you give me a reason why it is a good idea to indoctrinate seven year olds into this tolerant movement? Why can't kids be kids. Do you not think that not pointing out differences is between people will serve to keep kids from being picked on? Do you not think that waiting to teach kids about human sexuality allows them to be innocent children? Do you not have faith in teachers enough to allow them discipline children on a case by case basis instead of sitting everyone down and calling out the one kid in the class with gay parents?

Kids can certainly be kids. Some people just want them to be nice kids. Shocking, I know. Seriously, I know you're Joe America and have the good 'ol "if it 'aint broke, don't fix it" mentality but times change and right now it "is broke" and needs "to be fixed".

Children are growing up faster and faster nowadays and education has to change with the times. Nobody is going to "point out the child with gay parents". Hell, gay parents are still very rare at this time but telling kids it's ok if they come across it is necessary.

The moon landing happened. If you think it didn't then you are gullible, weak minded jackass, and I would tell my mother the same thing. If you think it was faked, get a clue man. 9/11 Conspiracies catch people who are looking for anything to latch onto to be anti-government because they think it's cool. It happened, get over it. The government shows you literally tons of paperwork and you say it must be faked. Popular Mechanics brings in experts from Cal Tech and MIT to disprove Loose Change and you say they're liars. You're just looking to latch on to a movement to feel a sense of belonging because you feel your government let you down. I understand. It must suck to live in that much self-pity.

Thank you for proving my point.

This is the reaction lots of people have when these subjects are brought up. And that's why, like I said there is no possible way for a school to please everyone.

Seriously, thanks again.

Really? So seven year olds should vote, be allowed to marry, move out of their parents house, buy smokes, and go to war huh? This is idiocy.

I completely agree. I'm confused on what point you're trying to make though...

Are you saying it's "all or nothing"? That's...an odd way to think. I'd have to say I disagree. I think people should certainly continue to go through stages in life. When a baby starts to crawl, I don't think the mother should give it the keys to the mini van...I would have to frown upon that parenting style. But I do think a parent should teach a third grader right and wrong. And I really wouldn't encourage smoking and war at any age. You don't have kids do you? *crosses fingers*

OK, so what about being gay is right and wrong? Is this an issue with a black and white answer? Should we be tolerant or intolerant of everyone in the world? Seven year olds are starting to develop in this area, but they still can't function in grey areas. They understand good and evil, but try to explain an anti-hero to a second grader. You'll lose them.

There is nothing right or wrong about "being gay". But there is "right or wrong" about picking on others.





Wow. lol.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Kids are picking things up at an earlier age now, so therefore unfortunately this is necessary. I think it's a shame as well, that schools have to be diving into this topic at such early ages, but homophobia and hatred towards Gays/Bis is taught to kids and picked up on them by early ages, so measures like this are necessary while they are absorbing information like a sponge.

Can't say I am really in favor of them teaching about Transgendered people, but to touch base very lightly and delicately about some people "liking" other people of the same sex and that there not being anything wrong with that because "they are different" is acceptable to me. I seriously doubt they are getting as graphic about it as some people are speculating, though.

The problem is that this is indoctrination.

So is religion. And kids are exposed to this at a very early age, as well. Not that I disagree with most of the Bible's morals and teachings, however it is clear that the authors of the Bible did not understand or have a good grasp of what homosexuality was, as well as its causes. And if it is taught that it is wrong to children at an early age, then they risk growing up thinking this, as well.

Indoctrination isn't restricted to being taught solely in schools.

 

[CH David]

Yes, I'm really trying to say that. What do you think the same-sex parents of children do? Does one wear a dress until the kid's in college?

I think they themselves teach their children that it is okay. That child grows up for the first few years not really knowing the difference about their parents. Until they start going to the park or school and realizing other kids have "straight" parents, they don't know that their parents are different. Why do you want to take a child's innocence away?

I didn't say I said the words "I disagree", you put that in quotes, not I. I said I disagreed because I gave my opinion that was different than yours. And I was being sarcastic with the elementary school comment. I was just making fun of your stance that nobody in elementary school can comprehend anything.

So then just say that to begin with, and not spouting "I disagreed" in your next post.

My stance isn't that children can't comprehend "anything". My stance on the issue is that they can't comprehend a subject such as this. You are putting words into my mouth. Like I have said, elementary school, especially kindergarten through 2nd or 3rd grade, is about learning basic learning skills. Learning to read, write, add, subtract, etc. If you can comprehend something to the magnitude of a war, or someone having gay parents, when you are between 5-7, then more power to you, but most kids don't.

LOL Again the sarcasm went over your head. So to be clear, I don't actually think you live on Sesame Street, I just think you've lived a very sheltered life.

Oh and I live in the Chicago suburbs as well, so that's why I can tell you "what the fuck little kids say".

Yes because you know just who the fuck I am right? You don't know a god damn thing about me, so don't even try to say you know what the fuck my life has been like! If I've lived a sheltered life, then I guess hanging out with a gay person on a regular basis, being best friends with someone of Muslim faith, parent's gone through a divorce, being hated on by one half of my family because they don't really care for me. And yet still being able to go to school, hang out with my friends, learn about the world in high school and college, working towards my career goal, yeah that sounds really sheltered to me. And that isn't even my whole story. So again, don't try to think you know how my life is, when you don't know shit about me.

Also, I'm not a fucking idiot, I know you didn't think I lived on Sesame Street next to the Brady Bunch. Again you are trying to belittle me and trying to say I can't comprehend sarcasm. You just suck at sarcasm, or you just think that sarcasm travels well on the internet, it doesn't.

Umm...no, I'm not...that's kinda what the topic is about. Some people think that should be changed. Try and keep up.

Dude I fucking started this thread, you probably didn't know a god damn thing about this before I started it. So don't tell me to keep up when I know what the fuck is going on.

7 is the age of reason. That's when "right or wrong" should be tought. I would hope a college student already knows the difference...

"OH no, gays are wrong and an abomination to the planet. They need to go away and never be heard from again. My straight pawents waised me to be the bestest person ever" (sarcasm) Seriously, don't beliittle me dude. I'm not a fucking child.

I'll take two sides to your right and wrong portion of teaching. Kids are taught right and wrong by their parents and teachers. It is wrong to swear, hit, and disobey your elders, especially as a child/minor. It is right to be polite, have manners, show respect to people, etc. That is what they are taught when they are children when it comes to right and wrong. Unless of course you are talking about math as well in which 2+2=4 is right and 2+2=5 is wrong.

On the otherside, which stays with the topic. Are you saying that they should be taught that being gay is right? I don't get what the hell you are saying about right and wrong in this situation. Being gay isn't right or wrong, and trying to say otherwise is pretty stupid. But then again, you didn't actually say that, so I'm just going to guess that you inferred it. Either way, you can't teach that being gay is right or wrong. You have to teach that it is acceptable and okay, not that it is right or wrong. There is a difference you see.

It is just my opinion that teaching this kind of subject in school could lead to something worse. Like FTS said, what if children are taught that other kids' parents are different, and even though it is okay, that child may see differently than intended. Also, if this actually happens and leads to a few kids thinking that people with gay parents are different and become a homophobe, the parents can say, "We tried teaching him/her good values. It is the school's fault for what happened, we did our best, but schools know better than us when it comes to raising our own child."