Does it really matter if you've only stayed in the one company?

[A11oftheLights]

One argument that many people have used when debating John Cena vs Ric Flair title reign argument is that even if Cena was to surpass Flair, Flair's is still a better achievement as he did it in multiple companies and Cena has only competed in the WWE.

Does that really matter though?

In my opinion, (however little it means) all of John Cena's titles have come in the biggest mainstream wrestling company in the world. These days there is a clear number one and then there is TNA (not bashing here) who are a long way away from being considered competition. In the modern day wrestling world you cant really expect WWE's top stars to jump around companies like they once did as there isnt another large company that can pay them more, which is why it is now irrelevant how many different companies you have been champion in. You cant count winning in the likes of ROH, TNA and so on these days as they just arent big enough to be really considered world championships. One day hopefully they are, but for now they are not.

So what does everyone else think? Does it really matter these days if someone is only champion in one company?

 

[Slash-LN]

Totally different eras. As you mentioned in the OP there isn't the same competition organization wise as there was when Flair was winning titles in other companies.

John Cena has dominated the top company in the United States and possibly the world for the length of his career. There's nothing negative about that. If people think that he wouldn't be able to go to another United States based promotion and be able to do the same thing then that's ridiculous.

All that should really matter is the quality of the reigns.

I don't remember anyone saying Shawn Michaels never went to WCW so his WWF/E runs weren't good or impressive.

Same thing for Sting with WCW before he ended up in TNA. What about The Rock? Steve Austin? Sure Austin was in WCW and ECW for a time but his only world titles came in WWE.

People will make up any silly reason to justify their hate.

 

[ABMorales787]

Flair had a cup of coffee in AWA. A cup of coffee in Japan and another one in WWE. His total time outside NWA/WCW doesn't even add up to 5 years. Oh, yeah. Regular adventurer that Ric Flair.

No one should give a shit of where a talent goes. It sure as hell didn't stop Sting from being a major wrestling. It's not even denting John Cena.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Staying primarily with one wrestling company ultimately isn't going to hurt a wrestler's legacy in any way, shape or form depending upon the circumstances. For instance, Ric Flair spent the VAST majority of his career wrestling in Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling or it was where he was based even while he was traveling from territory to territory as NWA World Heavyweight Champion. Since the NWA was on life support by the mid 80s, Jim Crockett, Jr. gained pretty much all the power there was to have because his company was the only NWA affiliate that was not only making money but was downright thriving. As a result, Flair & the strap stayed with Mid-Atlantic.

The territory days and the post-territory days are like apples & oranges in so many ways. For instance, even though Cena has only been in WWE, is that supposed to somehow count against him? WWE is the last dog left in the fight, it's a wrestling company that's generating hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue each year whereas every single one of their contemporaries have gone tits up. To top it off many of those same contemporaries have ended up as acquired property now belonging to WWE. When you consider how much larger WWE has become compared to any other company in business 30-40 years ago, there's no need for Cena to have to go anywhere. When most Americans think of pro wrestling, WWE the first company that springs to mind. Even if they don't watch wrestling, they at least know about WWE on a basic level. As a result, unless the landscape of pro wrestling changes over the course of the next 15 to 20 years, then it's going to be extremely difficult for anybody that's been wrestling for at least the past 10 years through that future time period to be thought of as an "all time great" in the minds of most fans if they haven't had a successful career in WWE.

During the 80s, the territory system was dying and while Vince McMahon tends to get much of the blame, an often overlooked factor is that cable television & syndication was becoming widely available. Because of this you could potentially watch Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling if you lived in Houston, Texas or WCCW if you liked in Raleigh, North Carolina. Some of the reasons why wrestlers moved around from various territories included the desire to stay fresh, their deals were coming to an end & they weren't able to negotiate a new one that was satisfactory, they wanted a fresh start somewhere else, heat with various other wrestlers or management, etc.. By 1990, WCW and WWF were the only companies in the United States where wrestlers could make huge money and when it's all said & done, that's what it's all about as far as most of them are concerned. Having tons of recognition as being a top star would be a great perk, but that doesn't translate into a whole helluva lot in the real world when you've got bills to pay.

When it's all said & done, most people today will say that Flair's runs are more prestigious due to any number of factors ranging from not liking John Cena to the nostalgia they associate with watching Ric Flair do his thing when they were 10 years old. However, if you ask that same question 20 years from now, it's not at all impossible that answer will be very different. I'm sure some fans in 1985 may have asked who was the more prestigious NWA World Heavyweight Champion between Lou Thesz and Ric Flair. Maybe Lou Thesz would've had a ton of supporters. If you asked that question by 1995, however, I'd be willing to bet that 9 out of 10 people would've said Ric Flair.

 

[Wrestlingfan100]

I am not a wrestler, I went to wrestling school for 2 hours for a birthday present( where they trained Bam Bam Bigelo, a young CM Punk & Sheamus) I have respect for anybody who can take a bump cause that's tough to learn.

There really is a dying breed and also a restart in a way of young veterans coming to WWE. CM Punk, Matt Sydal, Cesaro, Daniel Bryan, Sami Zayne and Adrian Nevel etc are pretty much the new current versions of Rey Mysterio, Jericho, Eddie, Beniot etc guys that came from the indies but also internationally.

A guy like matt sydal belongs in Japan, impeccable highflying, great sound technician, awesome strikes and educated feet but he also wrestled all around the world like his indie brethren.

I like journmen wrestlers, they can work multiple styles and their craft keeps building.

John Cena is a sound wrestler who can pull off great stuff( good powerbombs, sweet half nelson-back suplex neckbreaker, a great suicide dive one time) but he only pulls that stuff off when facing guys listed above.
John would not wrestle for another federation, john wouldn't be able to work Japan, not from a wrestling level, he'd be fine but just the way the crowd is.

Being a WWE superstar for life can make you kind of stagnant, it doesn't always happen but when it comes down to it the WWE style is safer on the body, it fits with the attention span of the demographics they target but it
stifles a guy like cena who although not even close to an all rounder or jack of all styles is an efficient catch hand grappler, incredible strength and speed but also horrible submissions and when he does decide to fly although rare he's very crisp and exciting.

I make moveset lists, I do efedding and also it's kind of a nerdy hobby, WWE literally shortens their "superstars" to 40 moves as the highest amount
and probably not by restraints or any type backstage crap just learning to work camera angles, safety, etc.
Evan Bourne/Matt Sydal i'll mention again, I use him as an example a lot, a backyard wrestler, highschool wrestler and since 17 a legal pro wrestler now 31, he has an arsenal of 200 moves but he pulled out few submission holds(except for a few early ECW matches), few power moves( a sunset flip powerbomb from the turnbuckle, a snap scoop slam on Miz in ecw in 2008 and a suplex to R Truth while in air boom) but on the indies he'd hit suplexes, submissions, different pin variants. Then you have guys like Jericho, Rollins and others listed above who can do many different things.

It's like a wrestler's palette, like how a chef should have a great food palette,
a wrestler expanding his arsenal is great.

out of The Rock, John Cena and Stone cold, steve austin is the most mechanically sound, he had to change his style to appease fans( who probably don't even watch wrestling now) as well as because of his injuries. people jump on miz for his figure four when The Rock's sharpshooter was god awful as is Cena's STF( which Stone cold pointed out to cena's face during a podcast)

 

[FlairFan2003]

In Cena's era there was no nationally promoted power house promotion unless he went to Japan. ROH and TNA reach a tiny fraction of what WCW did in it's dying days (TNA's best ratings are half what WCW's worst numbers were, same with PPVs). WCW was the last touring company that regularly did shows through out the US and over seas in comparison to WWE.

The big thing is how long was someone at or near the top of the industry as a whole. Fact is thanks to TBS and WCW Saturday Night Ric Flair was a major star all over the US in the 1980s even without the WWE expansion backing him. Same with Dusty Rhodes, The Road Warriors, and a few others. Back in the mid to late 80s it's hard to think of anyone who could have traveled all over the US and sold better than Flair outside of Hogan. The fact that Flair had at least one reign every year from 1981-1996 is a remarkable achievement. Hogan's run was similar but a bit less impressive in terms of title runs due to the large amounts of time he took off. Cena comparably has been WWE's biggest star, and by extension the biggest star in the Industry in the US, for roughly ten years. He would likely need another 2-3 years before he could break the record meaning by then he would have maintained the top spot for nearly 15 years, comparable to the popularity and staying power Hogan & Flair had at their heights.

I will say given how well Hogan & Flair performed as ratings draws in the final WWE run when both were well past their prime and working abbreviated schedules (especially Hogan) that Cena has a way to go to catch up there. Lets see if Cena can still sell main events when he is 10-15 years past his World Title days. If he does then love him or hate him you have to give him his due.

As for the quality of the title runs, because the industry changed so have the length of title reigns. In the 80s when guys like Backlund, Hogan, and Flair would dominate the title for years at a stretch the live touring was the bread and butter of the show, and it took a long time for everyone in the fan base to have a chance to see the champ as the shows toured. If a champ proved a major draw they held the title longer through multiple tours of the country. Such was the case with Flair & Hogan. By the time WCW started airing monthly PPVs and started airing main event quality matches on live Nitro broadcasts (forcing WWE to change to keep pace) storylines progressed faster and thus titles weren't held as long. Cena has three very long reigns in which it was clear the company was built around him for the long haul which other than HHH is the best any champ has had since the end of the territories and pre taped jobber heavy TV shows. Bottom line Cena has dominated the decade in WWE and been its most consistent ticket seller and merchandise mover. Same with Flair & Hogan in their time. However, with the change in the business model we will never see a run like Flair had where he held the championship for over 70% of the decade in the 1980s and toured the US, South America, Singapore, and Japan (add in Germany if you count his over seas title defenses as WWE champ in 1992). You'll never see someone hold the belt 5 straight years either like Backlund & Hogan did, the business model has changed too much.

And yes, some people nitpick that some of the reigns were extremely short. I certainly hate to think of Cena getting the record when he has reigns that literally lasted less than one full day, but lets not forget Sting also had a reign like that (winning and loising the title in the same episode of Monday Nitro), Hogan had the "Finger Poke Of Doom" and then managed only two title defenses before losing the belt two months later, and Flair had the Vince Russo inspired "Kevin Nash awards him the belt" moment when Russo stripped Flair of the title when he needed time off for injury (re occurance of the ear issues from injuries sustained against Ultimate Warrior). Personally I never thought given how the storyline progressed that Flair's 15' th reign should ever have been considered interrupted but if it wasn't that would eradicate reigns for Jeff Jarret (awarded the title by Russo when Flair was injured) and Kevin Nash (who beat Jarret later that night) and Pro Wrestling Illustrated and WWE seem to not want to do that.

Now of course we can argue that Flair was a bigger star (legit argument, especially when you still even today see him referenced in sports and pop culture, LeBron James giving interviews about him as the "originator of swag", Darrius Rucker giving interviews about him and inviting him to charity gold tournaments, references on NFL Today on CBS, numerous references by the First Take Commentators on ESPN, being invited to address the 49'ers before a playoff game, being invited to speak in the clubhouse to The Boston Red Sox, multiple references in rap songs, one even named after him, etc etc) just as we can argue wether Cena was a big a nationally recognized media star as Hogan, as good an in ring performer as HHH, or if he ever reached the zenith in popularity that Austin hit in his prime before his 1999 back injury. Some will complain that Cena would have had a harder time rising and staying on top if Austin didn't retire early with injuries, if Rock didn't chose Hollywood, just as Austin benefitted from HBK's back injury that forced him out of sight just as he was reaching his peak, as Hogan benefitted from Andre's willingness to put him over clean at W-Mainia or the poor performance as champ of The Ultimate Warrior, just as Flair benefitted from the car accident that ended Magnum TAs career when he was in line for a title run, or the horrible booking that lead to the disaster that was Sting's first title run, or grabbing an extra WWE Title when Randy Savage decided he didn't want to wrestle and wanted off the road while he was still champ (or Brett Hart benefitted for Warrior injuring Flair when WWE was in the midst of a major feud between them seemingly headed for Survivor Series and likely ending with Warrior getting the belt, instead Flair was off for two months recuperating and Warrior got fired, opening the door door for Hart). These things happen to every long term star and it doesn't change how successful any of them ultimately were, plus there is no way to know if in any of those random cases if the star in question would not have been successful in the end, in every case they very well may have ended up with the same or similar level of success, just by taking a slightly altered path.

One thing is certain, if WWE decides to let Cena get the record you can bet his whole chase into history will be a MAJOR STORYLINE, likely with Flair involved in some supporting role, you know Cena wont randomly win #17 on a mid summer RAW, his whole chase will be played for all it's worth against the strongest champ possible for him to conquer, Cena and #17 sound like the main event to WrestleMania 32 to me if WWE decides to let it happen

 

[Reflection]

Your way of thinking is correct. Because John Cena can go to any wrestling promotion in the world right now and will be made world champion within a year. He is that damn good. But this formula applies only for the Top 3 promotions in last few decades, i.e. WWE/WWF/WWWF/ECW, WCW/Jim Crockett Promotions/NWA, and TNA Wrestling, not to any other promotion. If John Cena wins the WWE (and World) title for the 17th time, he will be said to have surpassed Ric Flair's record. But if some guy wins the ROH or NJPW title 17 times, he won't even be considered to be on Ric Flair's level, let alone beyond him.

 

[Dagger Dias]

It depends on how large the companies that the wrestler worked in are. If you see all of your success today in the WWE, it would be a bigger deal than if you see all of your success in TNA or ROH, for instance. Bobby Lashley won the TNA World Heavyweight Championship. Awesome for him. However, had he won the WWE Championship in 2007 when he had his big push there, it would have been a much bigger deal. Christian has held the World Heavyweight Champion in WWE as well as in TNA. However, he's not as much of a success in terms of his title reigns as someone like Triple H who has held more world titles but all came from WWE. If John Cena breaks Flair's record having only worked in WWE, it's a bigger deal than if anyone from TNA breaks it there having only won world titles there, or even someone like Angle who has won several world titles in both of the two companies. In today's wrestling world it truly comes down to the size of the federation you won your World Championships in. This argument of needing to win world titles in other companies mattered more during the territory days. Things are very different now than it was back then.