Does Anyone Else Have a Problem with Ric Flair giving up to the Figure Four?

[Tenta]

Look, I'll admit, I'm of the old school mindset, in that you just don't beat someone else with their own move. It's disrespectful, it sullies the legacy of the wrestler, and it ultimately is bad business, no matter how you look at it. Combine that with the fact that Flair is a legend in the business, while Jay Lethal will always be a mid card contender at best, and yes, frankly, I may be taking this way too personally, but whatever.

I promised myself I'd sleep it off, and I did. And the lasting memory of Victory Road was neither the lackluster Main Event, nor the elation of watching the MCMG winning the tag belts, it was that Flair was forced into tapping to his own submission move. Let's be realistic here boys; someone in the backstage at least put it into Ric Flair's head that it would be smiled upon if he let Lethal make him tap to the Figure Four. Flair was wrestling his best friend in the business, aside from Arn, in Shawn Michaels, and never allowed Michaels to make him submit to the figure four. Among the numerous "retirement" matches Flair's ever had, no one's ever made him submit to the figure four. I find it highly unlikely that Flair would typically be ok with Lethal making him tap to his own finishing move, considering how much of an ego he has in the business. That, and knowing the vultures that are backstage in TNA that have been attempting to bury Flair for years, and something still just doesn't smell right to having Flair tap to his own hold in the match. Who knows, I may be wrong, but I ultimately don't believe so.

I realize it's a sixty year old version of himself, but it's still a legend in the business. So is it wrong to treat your legend in the company this way, by making him tap to his own move? There are plenty ways of putting Jay Lethal over aside from the figure four hold, but was it really necessary that Flair submit to his own move?

Trust me, we may not hear about this while Flair is in the company, but eventually, we will hear more about this.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Nope, because if it truly mattered, and it were that degrading to Flair, he'd never have OK'd it in the first place. Let's not sit here kidding ourselves or anyone else into thinking that Flair wasn't OK with this to begin with, either – this is a man who went around Dixie Carter and negotiated his contract with TNA with Panda Energy directly, so in the event TNA failed he'd still be paid, so to insinuate that a man that intelligent couldn't see the potential damage to his own character in tapping to his own move is as naïve as can be.

Aside from that ever-present and damning-to-your-case fact, it was the ultimate rub for Jay Lethal, who just picked up the win of his career by beating Flair clean in the center of the ring, and he has no one to thank but Flair for that.

Too many of you are too concerned with these preconceived notions of failure and damage before things ever have a chance to pan out – this is no different. This is no more "damaging" to Flairs career than coming out of retirement to wrestle again was, yet I don't see very many folks crying about Flair being a part of the wrestling business as an on-air talent anymore – certainly not like they were months ago. In fact, most of what I see is praise, for Flair putting over a number of the younger up-and-comers in the company right now. This is no different if you ask me.

Was it entirely necessary to have him tap to the figure-four, as opposed to being beaten in some other fashion? No, but without it, the lure isn't quite there. Beating Flair is one thing – beating him with his own move, and potentially being able to proclaim yourself the only man to ever make him tap out to his own move – well, that's something entirely different. If you can't see the value in that, I don't know what to say.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

I think its a little disrespectful myself, but I don't think TNA or anyone else meant any disrespect by doing it, they just thought it would be a good way to elevate Lethal.

With that said though it doesn't make it anymore right in my opinion. In wrestling, someone losing to their own finisher is the ultimate slap in the face and should never be done unless its something like Guererro vs. RVD where both of them used the frog splash as a finisher. They could have and should have come up with a better way for Flair to put Lethal over (god knows Flairs done it a 1000 times before, and he didn't need to lose to the figure 4 to make it happen), frankly something like low-blowing flair and getting the roll up would probably have been a better way to go (since the low blow is a Flairesque move and it would have been cool to see Lethal out dirty the dirtiest player in the game) but making Flair lose to his own finisher is pretty disrespectful and a slap to the face of one of the biggest legends in wrestling history.

Like I said I don't think TNA did it intentionally to disrespect Flair, they just thought it would help Lethal get over more. Of course Flair OK'ed it because he will always put the business first (and Flair winning matches doesn't help anybody these days), and its not like it will tarnish his legacy, but they should have found a better way to put Lethal over.

 

[shattered dreams]

Look, I'll admit, I'm of the old school mindset, in that you just don't beat someone else with your move. It's disrespectful, it sullies the legacy of the wrestler, and it ultimately is bad business, no matter how you look at it. Combine that with the fact that Flair is a legend in the business, while Jay Lethal will always be a mid card contender at best, and yes, frankly, I may be taking this way too personally, but whatever.

I promised myself I'd sleep it off, and I did. And the lasting memory of Victory Road was neither the lackluster Main Event, nor the elation of watching the MCMG winning the tag belts, it was that Flair was forced into tapping to his own submission move. Let's be realistic here boys; someone in the backstage at least put it into Ric Flair's head that it would be smiled upon if he let Lethal make him tap to the Figure Four. Flair was wrestling his best friend in the business, aside from Arn, in Shawn Michaels, and never allowed Michaels to make him submit to the figure four. Among the numerous "retirement" matches Flair's ever had, no one's ever made him submit to the figure four. I find it highly unlikely that Flair would typically be ok with Lethal making him tap to his own finishing move, considering how much of an ego he has in the business. That, and knowing the vultures that are backstage in TNA that have been attempting to bury Flair for years, and something still just doesn't smell right to having Flair tap to his own hold in the match. Who knows, I may be wrong, but I ultimately don't believe so.

I realize it's a sixty year old version of himself, but it's still a legend in the business. So is it wrong to treat your legend in the company this way, by making him tap to his own move? There are plenty ways of putting Jay Lethal over aside from the figure four hold, but was it really necessary that Flair submit to his own move?

Trust me, we may not hear about this while Flair is in the company, but eventually, we will hear more about this.

I think you are definitely taking this too far. I am not sure what you mean about Flair having an ego. Hogan wrestles with an ego, Flair has always embodied not being afraid to lose to make someone look good. If it was not something Flair was interested in, then sure they were wrong. However, by almost all accounts Flair is largely responsible for Lethal's push. Flair is a big fan of his and they are often around town together. I actually suspect Flair had plenty to do with this plan for the finish. If I was you I would watch the match again and see how good Lethal made Flair look. I bet Flair would gladly tap to the figure four to have his best match in years. He does not want to be the legend ric flair on a tour where he does three moves and calls it a night. He wants to be a legit heel drawing a reaction by getting embarrassed and reacting as such. Flair is different than most "legends" that way. To me that refusal to get on the senior tour is what makes him all the more legend when he can pull matches like this off at the end of his feuds at his age.

 

[Tenta]

Nope, because if it truly mattered, and it were that degrading to Flair, he'd never have OK'd it in the first place. Let's not sit here kidding ourselves or anyone else into thinking that Flair wasn't OK with this to begin with, either – this is a man who went around Dixie Carter and negotiated his contract with TNA with Panda Energy directly, so in the event TNA failed he'd still be paid, so to insinuate that a man that intelligent couldn't see the potential damage to his own character in tapping to his own move is as naïve as can be.

Yeah, we're also talking about a guy who has "Ok'ed" in his career...

-Having his head shaved
-His wife & family disgraced on live television
-To be constantly be buried by WCW and Hulk Hogan, in which forced him to retire, be placed in drag, and attack Randy Savage's father.
-Have his best friend Arn Anderson's alcoholism revealed on national fucking television in a parody of what was supposed to be a tear inducing retirement.

Look, Flair is an old school; he's going to keep quiet until the time is right. Also, remember, those same people that caused him to do all of the above are now working for TNA. Shock and awe anyone?

Aside from that ever-present and damning-to-your-case fact, it was the ultimate rub for Jay Lethal, who just picked up the win of his career by beating Flair clean in the center of the ring, and he has no one to thank but Flair for that.

Uh.... The win over a sixty year old is the key win in his career? That doesn't strike you as a paradox, at all? The fact that this win, over a washed up, balding man who has seen his best days pass him, that's his biggest win? Have we forgotten that this man beat the former World Heavyweight Champion, AJ Styles? Is TNA booking that forgetful? Really?

Ultimately, if you're going to use the same argument you will in the last paragraph, we can't call it "the ultimate rub", because Lethal hasn't done anything at all. And even if it is a great rub, that doesn't stop it from being disrespectful business.

Too many of you are too concerned with these preconceived notions of failure and damage before things ever have a chance to pan out – this is no different. This is no more "damaging" to Flairs career than coming out of retirement to wrestle again was, yet I don't see very many folks crying about Flair being a part of the wrestling business as an on-air talent anymore – certainly not like they were months ago. In fact, most of what I see is praise, for Flair putting over a number of the younger up-and-comers in the company right now. This is no different if you ask me.

Again, I have no problem with Lethal going over. There's no issue with that. It's that he was forced to tap to his own hold, something that, realistically, shits over the legacy of Harley Race, Dusty Rhodes, hell someone that works in the same fucking company, Sting. If you want Lethal to win, that's all well and good. But it becomes drastic overkill when he's forced to tap to his own, especially when there's been, what, two moves of build up to it?

 

[Tenta]

I think you are definitely taking this too far. I am not sure what you mean about Flair having an ego. Hogan wrestles with an ego, Flair has always embodied not being afraid to lose to make someone look good.

Oh, I'm sorry..... Not believing Ric Flair doesn't have an ego is really the markiest thing I've ever heard someone say. Have you ever read his book? Have you ever read his thoughts on Mick Foley, Bret Hart, all unwarranted? Have you ever heard what X-pac has seen about the man, in that he is egomaniacal asshole?

Right, don't kid yourself. Flair's ego is nearly as big as anyone in the business. We just don't call him out for it, because he's a great worker.

If it was not something Flair was interested in, then sure they were wrong. However, by almost all accounts Flair is largely responsible for Lethal's push. Flair is a big fan of his and they are often around town together. I actually suspect Flair had plenty to do with this plan for the finish.

Yeah.... I believe it's more the names that have been trying to bury him for fifteen years; Hogan, Bischoff, and Russo. But, hey, po-tay-to, po-ta-to, huh?

If I was you I would watch the match again and see how good Lethal made Flair look. I bet Flair would gladly tap to the figure four to have his best match in years. He does not want to be the legend ric flair on a tour where he does three moves and calls it a night. He wants to be a legit heel drawing a reaction by getting embarrassed and reacting as such. Flair is different than most "legends" that way. To me that refusal to get on the senior tour is what makes him all the more legend when he can pull matches like this off at the end of his feuds at his age.

Oh, the markiness. Look, let's be realistic, Flair is in it for the money. He's bledding money from his ex-wife, and his real estate plans haven't gone as planned. Let's be honest, he needs the money. That's why he's being so quiet here; he can't afford to lose this job with TNA, because he left the WWE, and their specatular booking of the end of his career, for this job, and he can't go back.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Yeah, we're also talking about a guy who has "Ok'ed" in his career...

-Having his head shaved
-His wife & family disgraced on live television
-To be constantly be buried by WCW and Hulk Hogan, in which forced him to retire, be placed in drag, and attack Randy Savage's father.
-Have his best friend Arn Anderson's alcoholism revealed on national fucking television in a parody of what was supposed to be a tear inducing retirement.

Look, Flair is an old school; he's going to keep quiet until the time is right. Also, remember, those same people that caused him to do all of the above are now working for TNA. Shock and awe anyone?

Granted, but it doesn't change the fact that Flair is still an intelligent human being who fully understands the potential consequences of anything like this – including tapping out ot his own move. As I said before you quoted, was it entirely necessary to have him tap to the figure-four, as opposed to being beaten in some other fashion? No, but without it, the lure isn't quite there. Beating Flair is one thing – beating him with his own move, and potentially being able to proclaim yourself the only man to ever make him tap out to his own move – well, that's something entirely different. If you can't see the value in that, I don't know what to say.

Uh.... The win over a sixty year old is the key win in his career? That doesn't strike you as a paradox, at all? The fact that this win, over a washed up, balding man who has seen his best days pass him, that's his biggest win? Have we forgotten that this man beat the former World Heavyweight Champion, AJ Styles? Is TNA booking that forgetful? Really?

Ultimately, if you're going to use the same argument you will in the last paragraph, we can't call it "the ultimate rub", because Lethal hasn't done anything at all. And even if it is a great rub, that doesn't stop it from being disrespectful business.

Beating a 62-year old man means nothing, but beating Ric Flair, regardless of his age, means everything.

Again, you're taking this "disrespectful" thing too far. How is it "disrespectful" if Flair was OK with it? You should be upset with Flair, not TNA. Considering the amount of praise Ric has had for Jay over the last few weeks, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it was actually Flair who told Lethal that he'd tap to the FF, and not TNA dictating he should.

Again, I have no problem with Lethal going over. There's no issue with that. It's that he was forced to tap to his own hold, something that, realistically, shits over the legacy of Harley Race, Dusty Rhodes, hell someone that works in the same fucking company, Sting. If you want Lethal to win, that's all well and good. But it becomes drastic overkill when he's forced to tap to his own, especially when there's been, what, two moves of build up to it?

See above.

 

[Coco]

I'm confused. Help me out here: How is losing a pre-determined fight because of a painful submission disrespectful to you? Can you, in any tangible way, explain how this lessens Flair's legacy or is bad for business?

Right now, I think you're just getting swept away in the hype of it all. You're speaking about these broad concepts that are touched on often in wrestling, but what do these things mean? Certainly a "legacy" in a sideshow form of entertainment is taking things too seriously, no matter how hard Tenay and Taz put it over in the booth. "Respect" in this biz is an even greater misnomer to me. I don't believe either of those things really exist, and even if they do, I don't believe they're such a factor that they could be destroyed with one (not unrealistic) loss and I don't think that loss could hurt business in any real way.

Of course I'm just easy-going like that.

 

[Tenta]

Granted, but it doesn't change the fact that Flair is still an intelligent human being who fully understands the potential consequences of anything like this – including tapping out ot his own move. As I said before you quoted, was it entirely necessary to have him tap to the figure-four, as opposed to being beaten in some other fashion? No, but without it, the lure isn't quite there. Beating Flair is one thing – beating him with his own move, and potentially being able to proclaim yourself the only man to ever make him tap out to his own move – well, that's something entirely different. If you can't see the value in that, I don't know what to say.

Agreed, to some extent. People paid the match to watch Flair get his ass beat, and I wouldn't deny that. Still does it better than half the whippersnappers in TNA

I agree with that, but people didn't pay expecting the figure four submission. Again, maybe this comes from my old mindset, but beating someone with your own move used to be an insult back in the day. I get, the wrestling world has changed over time, but there's something that just doesn't sit right, knowing who's backstage, and that none of them care for legacy. We're talking the same company that booked Flair to lose his HOF ring. Consider that for a second.

Beating a 62-year old man means nothing, but beating Ric Flair, regardless of his age, means everything.

Again, you're taking this "disrespectful" thing too far. How is it "disrespectful" if Flair was OK with it? You should be upset with Flair, not TNA. Considering the amount of praise Ric has had for Jay over the last few weeks, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it was actually Flair who told Lethal that he'd tap to the FF, and not TNA dictating he should.

Again, Flair has been ok at the time, because he has to make the money. Flair is in dire straits as it pertains to money. So I don't expect him to speak up. Especially when, realistically, he needs the money. Bad.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Agreed, to some extent. People paid the match to watch Flair get his ass beat, and I wouldn't deny that. Still does it better than half the whippersnappers in TNA

Indeed, and Flair did a phenomenal job in the match finish by embarrassing himself even further with that whole Hebner run-in as he flopped around like an angry fish.

I agree with that, but people didn't pay expecting the figure four submission. Again, maybe this comes from my old mindset, but beating someone with your own move used to be an insult back in the day. I get, the wrestling world has changed over time, but there's something that just doesn't sit right, knowing who's backstage, and that none of them care for legacy. We're talking the same company that booked Flair to lose his HOF ring. Consider that for a second.

And I do agree that the FF finish wasn't necessarily the only way to accomplish what they set out to accomplish in getting Lethal over on a tremendous platform, but I do still contend that it was the most powerful way of doing so.

Again, Flair has been ok at the time, because he has to make the money. Flair is in dire straits as it pertains to money. So I don't expect him to speak up. Especially when, realistically, he needs the money. Bad.

Perhaps, but that's a little out of our realm, no? I understand he's probably not in the most financially secure place in his life, but I find it hard to believe he'd be so strapped for cash that he'd go along with something like this – tapping to his own finisher, especially – just because he needed the money. That's a bit of a stretch.

 

[shattered dreams]

Oh, I'm sorry..... Not believing Ric Flair doesn't have an ego is really the markiest thing I've ever heard someone say. Have you ever read his book? Have you ever read his thoughts on Mick Foley, Bret Hart, all unwarranted? Have you ever heard what X-pac has seen about the man, in that he is egomaniacal asshole?

Right, don't kid yourself. Flair's ego is nearly as big as anyone in the business. We just don't call him out for it, because he's a great worker.

I was not saying Flair does not have an ego. I was saying that ego does not usually find it's way over into his in-ring work, while it does for many others. I am not sure whether it is harder to hear what someone saw or consider x-pac a great source of information There are plenty of people with "opinions' about Bret Hart and the stuff he said about Foley eventually became a worked shoot. They worked some matches together and Flair let Foley hardcore him up quite a bit.

Oh, the markiness. Look, let's be realistic, Flair is in it for the money. He's bledding money from his ex-wife, and his real estate plans haven't gone as planned. Let's be honest, he needs the money. That's why he's being so quiet here; he can't afford to lose this job with TNA, because he left the WWE, and their specatular booking of the end of his career, for this job, and he can't go back.

So you are admitting you a Flair mark so you cannot see this clearly yet I am a mark of what exactly? Right Flair "left" wwe and just went to TNA almost two years later. No one in wwe forced the man to retire that always had said he never wanted to? Then at his "spectacular" hall of fame induction let's cut flair short so we can fit in some more rock jokes. Right, TNA is the one that is disrespecting Flair. I did not know you were Flair's personal accountant. Talk about disrespecting a legend. Trivializing his wrestling work, which is basically his life and he takes a ton of pride in, to a need of money and nothing else. I would like to hear you say that to his face and see if he is more mad about that comment or the tapping out.

 

[closet_fan]

Flair has enough clout to say whether or not he wanted Lethal to beat him with his own move. Throughout Flair's career, he has always helped put younger talent over because he knows it's good for the business.

Look at what he did for Sting. Flair was a Hall of Famer when he first started doing matches with him. And because he put Sting over, they were some of the best matches ever.

It's no secret that Flair sees something in Lethal. He really likes the kid and thinks he could do great things. Him putting Lethal over, and letting him beat him with his own move, shows that Flair truly knows how to do the business the right way.

I have heard the rumors that Flair is broke. And honestly, I can believe it. But I don't think it's the ONLY reason why Flair is still wrestling. He is still in damn good shape for a guy his age and he can still work it like no one else.

If anything, Hogan is the one people should be pointing the finger at and saying he is in it for the money.

 

[kee4]

Flair tapping to the figure four was a great moment in last nights PPV. The match was good and you know it's likely to be brought up on Impact. Lets just let this play out rather than speaking against it so soon. Lethal has a lot of respect from his peers in TNA, Flair being one of his biggest supporters, and if Lethal wouldn't have made him tap out to the FF, AJ or Kaz would have probably done it eventually. Flair may be 61 years old but he can still put on a great match. If this was MMA or UFC you could maybe get by with ripping Lethal for beating a 61 year old but this is sports entertainment and Flair is and always has been one of the best so it's a big deal. If it wasn't why would you have posted this thread? I'm glad it happened and Lethal deserved that honor.

 

[flocker]

Flair's ego is legendary.
It might just be what has allowed him to seem serious while "jobbing" and sometimes jobbing humiliatingly, to up and comer typesm
It might be what allows him to call himself a "wrestling God" while jobbing - yet still be taken seriously. Ric KNOWS that part of being the arrogant ass wrestling heel is the part where the "babyface" finally pays the heel back. A huge part of the reason we "love to hate" Flair is that he ultimately pays us back by sucing it up and being "humiliated". He will string it out, sure. But the longer it gets strung out, theoretically, the bigger the payoff.
Slick Ric has been stringing us along for FORTY years now. Lately, he juices more than than Tropicana. To put the kid over, he had to do more. So he tapped to his own move. He also got knocked on his ass by the little old weasel referee.
So what?
He's cool with it, or he wouldn't have done it.
He got paid.
He got one more chance to be a wrestling GOD.
Brother, if somebody were gonna pay you to lose to whatever your finisher is/was - and you could still do it - you'd take the money (and the humiliation) too. If you won't do it, lend me the costume, they can kic my ass, and we'll split the money.

 

[dman1373]

Uh.... The win over a sixty year old is the key win in his career? That doesn't strike you as a paradox, at all? The fact that this win, over a washed up, balding man who has seen his best days pass him, that's his biggest win? Have we forgotten that this man beat the former World Heavyweight Champion, AJ Styles? Is TNA booking that forgetful? Really?

QUOTE]

It doesn't matter If Aj is the face of the company. It doesn't matter that he is the top dog. Getting a win over a 16 time world champion who was champion in the wwe, wcw, and nwa is big. Getting a win over someone who many think is the very best wrestler of all time is huge. Its way more big than getting a win over aj styles, that no offense has never been champion outside of a company that is based in universal studios. When comparing a win over AJ to a win over a wrestling god, who would you want a win over.

 

[wylieb0y]

Ok, first and only...How the hell would you know if TNA have been trying to bury Ric Flair for years?

Sigh... I cant stand people that talk out of there ass like there backstage at the tapings every week. Hell you may aswell be Ric Flair yourself since you know everything.

 

[NatureBoyFig4]

I'm one of the biggest Flair fans out there, and I didn't have a problem with it. I think it was Flair taking a wrestler who he likes, a kid compared to him, under his wing & giving him what will be one of the best memories of his lifetime. Nobody expects Ric Flair of today to be the Ric Flair of the 80's or 90's. Being beaten in a match by someone in the early edge of his prime, especially someone who has already beaten Kurt Angle for a major title & has the skill & charisma of Lethal, is no embarrassment. It's not hurting Flair, it's making Lethal's day while also helping elevate him, and it was an entertaining match. I'm not saying I'd want him to have to wrestle every week, or even every month, but seeing him in the ring again with someone with the skill of Lethal was a rare treat.

 

[a0161613]

I'll be honest Tenta, I don't see the problem. I kinda wished I had gone with my gut, I nearly put this finish down in the Prediction Contest.

I think Flair has put Lethal over to a major degree. They could gone with a pinfall following the Lethal injection or a roll up. But tapping to the move that someone made famous, who is synonymous with one move, is pretty huge. Lethal is now in contention for any title he wants.

I dont see the embarrassment, more of a intelligent move. People have tried to beat Flair with the move and now Lethal has done it clean and that is what should be remembered.

 

[TRoN]

I have no problem with Flair tapping to the figure four. Flair likes Lethal alot and wanted to give the guy a great push. The only thing that hurt the situation was Lethal's little victory speach.

 

[Schizophrenic]

I wasn't bothered by t and Ihighly doubt that Ric himself was upset about it. He apparantly is incredibly high on Lethal and is puhing him to the moon to ANYONE who will listen so i have a feeling it was Ric himself that came up with the finish and said that Lethal will beat him with the Figure Four. I thought it was a great finish and put a great cap on an excellent match.

 

[gremmlinsmith]

I have no problem with it. It looks like Flair was ready to put Lethal over, and it's no secret he wants to push that kid to the moon. Having Flair tap to the FF was the perfect way to transition to a new fued with Fortune, have Kaz or A.J. tell Lethal he could only beat Flair using Flair's move.

 

[NatureBoyFig4]

Another reason I don't have a problem with this finish: It would be just like Ric Flair to have his match vs Lethal be the "real" tryout match for his group. After all, "To be the man, you have to beat the man." Lethal just beat The Man. In my opinion, that could make him one of the "anchor" members in Flair's new Horsemen tribute group.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

You're right, Ric Flair is a legend in this business. Getting in the ring with him is the fastest way to boost your career, and making him submit is something else entirely. I too was a little taken aback by Lethal's win via Figure Four, but I keep thinking of it like this...

Jay Lethal's entire thing is to copy other famous Superstars. For awhile now he's been mocking Flair, and that has led to their match last night at Victory Road. Yes, making a living legend like Flair tap to his own finisher is disrespectful, but I think that was the point. For weeks Flair has been assaulting Lethal and his family, and disrespecting his mother. The entire feud has been about mutual respect turned sour. Lethal used to idolize Flair, and the Nature Boy spit on him and his family. At Victory Road, not only did The Black Machismo almost de-pants Flair, he made him tap to his own finisher.

It was all about disrespect. Lethal wanted to get back at Flair, and he did so. As far as the backstage politics involved, I really don't think it was a huge problem. This promo has taken Lethal to a new level, and I think Flair is high on the kid. He's an old guy that has the potential to make anybody a main eventer, and he's actually using that power to make guys bigger. Jay Lethal may never be a main eventer, in your opinion, but I used to think the same thing of AJ Styles, and more recently D'Angelo Dinero. Maybe all it took was one win over the Nature Boy via submission?

Finishers aren't that big a deal, even if they do play a large role in the history of the industry. Putting guys over and making new faces is a much bigger deal than Flair never tapping out to his own move.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

So is it wrong to treat your legend in the company this way, by making him tap to his own move?

There are several reasons why personally I couldn't care less that Lethal beat Flair with the Figure Four. Ric Flair is one of my favorite wrestlers of all time, and like you, I'm an old school guy. But in real life, I think he's a complete douche bag. I think he's the most arrogant, condescending prick in the business. I think several top-tier guys are arrogant (Hogan, Austin, Bret Hart, HBK), but I don't find any of them to be truly condescending. Most of those guys have not made their later years all about bring others down. Flair has. Flair has taken every opportunity to bash anyone he doesn't like/feels threatened by. So when it comes to Ric Flair, as a person, I feel zero sympathy for anything that happens to him in the wrestling business.

Ric Flair made the choice to come back to wrestling. He had maybe the greatest send-off a 60 year old man could have asked for. Whether I like to say it or not, he overstayed his welcome with most fans. Personally, I didn't mind him wrestling from time to time..before his send off at Mania 24. He basically took that send-off and flushed it down the toilet.

Now, I understand he is still wrestling for two reasons. 1. He needs money. I get it, he's broke, and needs cash. I can't knock a guy for making an honest living. 2. He feels like he still has something to offer. WWE basically pushed him out the door, I get it. But, they did it in the nicest way possible. So if he still wants to be in the ring, even if it's just from time to time, he needs to realize he's going to be booked the way he's going to be booked. He went into TNA knowing exactly who he would be working for, and did it anyway. So once again, I have zero sympathy for Flair.

There are plenty ways of putting Jay Lethal over aside from the figure four hold, but was it really necessary that Flair submit to his own move?

Was it necessary? No. I wouldn't have booked it that way. I said earlier I have no sympathy for Flair, and I stand by that. But just because I don't feel bad for him doesn't mean I think it was right to have him tap to the figure four. I would had Lethal roll him up, beat him clean, etc. But I probably wouldn't have gone as far as to have him tap to the submission hold he has used for God knows how many years. But that's just me. At the same time, it doesn't really bother me that it happened.

The reason I have so little sympathy for what happened to Flair probably has something to do with the fact I doubt he would care if it happened to someone else. Ric Flair has spent the last ten years or so ripping just anyone and everyone, talking as much trash as possible. Maybe if this happened to someone else, some I had more respect for (as a human being), I would take a different tone. But not Flair.

 

[Rasha]

"Disrespect" is relative to the individuals involved. It's like watching a married couple; they may interact in a way that you'd never dream of with your own spouse but it's totally cool between them. If Flair had no problem with it, then that's all that matters. If anything, it just earn him even more respect in my eyes for having that kind of selflessness. Can you imagine Hogan letting someone beat him with the leg drop (LOL... that always sounds so funny)?