Do You Realize Who/What You Are Rooting For?

[Big Nick Dudley]

The TNA marks here on WrestleZone (and I would assume everywhere else) seem to erupt in ferocious anger when someone dares to say anything negative about the company. "WWE fans just hate TNA..because..it's not WWE!"

Trust me, I don't criticize TNA "just because." As a long time fan of professional wrestling, I want more than one top-notch promotion. I don't have a "favorite" company. If TNA were to become a major force in pro wrestling, it would force WWE to be more creative, and not so complacent. But I remain skeptical of those who currently control TNA, and so should the TNA super-marks out there.

These same people, at one time or another, ran (the now infamous) WCW. I think a lot of us tend to forget WCW's strengths because of how terribly it all ended, but it got really bad toward the end. The people who now control every creative aspect of TNA's programming were also the people who controlled WCW; Eric Bischoff, Hulk Hogan and Vince Russo.

Watching TNA today reminds of WCW..a lot..and that's frightening. Here are some glaring examples of the similarities:


TNA Is Treating the Audience In the Same Manner WCW Did

This past week, on the "big" February 3rd edition of Impact, we were told in the weeks leading up that, A. Hulk Hogan would make an appearance and, B. The Hogan/Dixie Carter legal battle would be resolved.

Surprisingly, Hogan never showed, and this stupid legal battle will continue (for at least) another month. This is eerily similar to what WCW did time and time again, especially as it relates to Starrcade 1997.

The nWo had run roughshod over WCW for a year and a half. Sting was creeping in the rafters, constantly setting up the inevitable destruction of the despicable nWo. Hogan vs. Sting was (FINALLY) booked for Starrcade '97, and this was the event that was supposed to destroy the nWo once and for all.

What happened instead? The match ended in total controversy, with Sting winning..but not really. WCW continued to be dominated by the nWo, and a storyline that should have lasted a year and a half, at most, lasted over three years.

Turn the page to 2010/11. I'm glad Fourtune turned on Immortal, because they shouldn't have been apart of the group in the first place. But I would be lying if I said I wasn't worried about TNA going WCW-style all over this. If this idiotic legal battle drags out and Immortal stays in control for too long, it will be the nWo all over again, trust me.

Anything and Everything Related to Immortal

If you don't see a direct parallel between this angle and the nWo saga, you're either deaf and blind, or you didn't watch WCW during the mid-to-late 90's.

Jeff Hardy turning heel at Bound for Glory 2010 was a total regurgitation of Hogan turning heel at Bash at the Beach 1996. Did it happen the exact same way? Of course not, small changes were made. But the "impact" was intended to have the same effect (no, Hardy turning did not have nearly the impact of Hogan turning).

What was the point of this entire angle? To establish a giant heel stable, which is now known as Immortal. While running WCW, Hogan and Bischoff relied upon the nWo to not only keep television ratings and PPV buyrates where they needed them, but to ensure Hogan could stay on top as long as possible.

People leaving and joining the group on a very frequent basis. A corrupt official (Bischoff's son and Nick Patrick). A new swerve taking place nearly every other week. "Legal" battles. The list goes on and on. Why do these similarities scare the living shit out of me? Because what helped turn WCW into a powerhouse company (the nWo) was also the cause of it's death.

Not Building for the Future

As TNA fans, I cannot understand how the majority of you can constantly defend the way the show is being booked right now. A.J. Styles, the poster boy of TNA, has suffered terribly under this regime. I like that he's now leading the charge against Immortal, but that doesn't excuse how poorly he's been used over the last 6-9 months, and it doesn't mean he's going to stay on top for long.

Christopher Daniels is gone, Joe is a mid-carder, Amazing Red is on television once every two months (if lucky), Magnus barely exists, etc.

Instead, TNA has brought in a past-his-prime Jeff Hardy, an over-the-hill RVD, and a never-was like Matt Hardy to lead the way. Eric Bischoff and Ric Flair dominate the show, and the same goes for Hogan when he's there. Guys like Doug Williams, A.J. Styles, Samoa Joe and Jay Lethal are carrying the load in the ring, while these other "big name" guys who "draw money" dominate the main event scene. Sound familiar?

In WCW, the same thing happened. Guys like Jericho, Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio and Dean Malenko busted their asses, night in and night out, but were never featured. The storylines and matches these men had, quality stuff, were ignored and trampled over. I mean for the love of Christ, the commentators wouldn't even talk about these guys WHILE they were in the freakin' ring. This is Bischoff/Hogan Booking 101, and they are doing the same shit now, in TNA.

Smaller Examples

-The amount of wrestling vs. the amount of talking. Hogan and Bischoff have always put far more emphasis on promos and storylines than they have actual wrestling, same goes for Russo. Because after all, no one pays to see actual wrestling, right? Just doesn't draw, BROTHER!

-Gimmick matches took hold in WCW during Russo's tenure, and what's happening in TNA is no different. During one WCW PPV (New Blood Rising in August of 2000) you had a Ladder match, a "Judy Bagwell on a Forklift" match (no, I'm really not making that up), a Four Corners match, a Strap match, a "Mud Rip off the Clothes" (???) match, a Canadian Rules match, and a Triple Threat match.

At Final Resolution, in December of 2010, TNA gave us a Falls Count Anywhere brawl, a First Blood match, a Full Metal Mayhem match, a Casket match, a Submission contest, a match with a Special Guest referee, and of course, let's not forget the "Cookie Suspended Above the Ring" match. It's unnecessary, and it's cheap. If you don't think this is a terrible way of doing things, you're either stupid or dishonest.

-"Worked shoots" became infamous in WCW, and are being used the same way in TNA. It's lazy booking, and takes no creativity. They take real-life situations (Karen/Jeff/Kurt in TNA and Hogan/Russ in WCW are some examples), no matter how uncomfortable it makes those involved, and uses those stories to avoid being creative. It's pretty simple, actually.

*​

Listen, I understand the loyalty. TNA is a small company, and those types of promotions usually come with die-hard fans. But, when you spaz out over someone criticizing the creative department, do you realize who you're actually rooting for??

By defending the current path TNA is taking, you aren't defending the talent. You aren't defending A.J. Styles, Doug Williams, Amazing Red, Magnus, Desmond Wolfe, Christopher Daniels, Eric Young, Matt Morgan, etc. You're defending the guys (Hogan/Bischoff/Russo) who are taking TNA apart. The guys you love (A.J., Daniels, etc.), the "originals," are the same guys Hogan and Bischoff refuse to push because "they don't draw money." Well no, they don't draw money..and neither does anyone else over there right now.

Initially, I thought Hogan and Bischoff would be good for TNA. Both are big names in the wrestling industry, and I thought they would give TNA the additional exposure needed to prosper. I was wrong, on every account. Instead, they have cashed their checks and not looked more than a month ahead since they got there. Do you think Bischoff and Hogan care about TNA? Do you think they care if the doors stay open after they're gone? No, they don't. They will be done with this business in a few years, and could care less what happens after they leave. Think about these things before you blow your next gasket.

Where am I going wrong?

Is TNA looking more and more like WCW, or am I completely delusional?

Who should TNA fans really be cheering for right now? The talent? Or the creative team?

Share any thoughts and feelings you have, and don't be lazy!

 

[Slyfox696]

Not Building for the Future

As TNA fans, I cannot understand how the majority of you can constantly defend the way the show is being booked right now. A.J. Styles, the poster boy of TNA, has suffered terribly under this regime. I like that he's now leading the charge against Immortal, but that doesn't excuse how poorly he's been used over the last 6-9 months, and it doesn't mean he's going to stay on top for long.

I only care to comment on this, mostly because I don't feel well and don't feel like reading the rest of what you wrote. AJ Styles has been the face of the company for a long time. He may not be in the spotlight right now, but even Triple H had a midcard feud with Ric Flair, Undertaker had his midcard feud with Heidenreich, Cena had his with Nexus, etc. I don't think keeping Styles out of the main-event for a year necessarily means he has been poorly booked, it just gives Styles a chance to kind of refresh himself.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I only care to comment on this, mostly because I don't feel well and don't feel like reading the rest of what you wrote. AJ Styles has been the face of the company for a long time. He may not be in the spotlight right now, but even Triple H had a midcard feud with Ric Flair, Undertaker had his midcard feud with Heidenreich, Cena had his with Nexus, etc. I don't think keeping Styles out of the main-event for a year necessarily means he has been poorly booked, it just gives Styles a chance to kind of refresh himself.

I'm not as concerned with the last year as I am with the next few. I'm sure you watched WCW unfold, and how they handled talent over there. If Hogan and Bischoff think someone can't draw money, they aren't going to keep that guy on top for very long. TNA fans seem unanimous in their love for A.J., and I'm apart of that group. The guy has the talent. But because of TNA's shit booking and storytelling, the ratings and PPV buys will suffer no matter how good he is. I guess I'm saying I can easily see Bischoff/Hogan/Russo screwing up TNA even more, and placing the blame on guys who do not deserve it.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm not as concerned with the last year as I am with the next few. I'm sure you watched WCW unfold, and how they handled talent over there. If Hogan and Bischoff think someone can't draw money, they aren't going to keep that guy on top for very long. TNA fans seem unanimous in their love for A.J., and I'm apart of that group. The guy has the talent. But because of TNA's shit booking and storytelling, the ratings and PPV buys will suffer no matter how good he is. I guess I'm saying I can easily see Bischoff/Hogan/Russo screwing up TNA even more, and placing the blame on guys who do not deserve it.

Without taking this thread into the same debate that always seems to happen in TNA forum...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't TNA's ratings been as good now as they've ever been? Didn't Jarrett come out recently and speak about how TNA is profitable? It seems to me TNA has been doing better with AJ in the background.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm as big of an AJ fan as I am a Cena fan. But I don't think you can make an argument right now that AJ Styles is a big draw for TNA.

 

[shattered dreams]

I might break down a few parts tomorrow but where you are going wrong is the same place we go wrong as well. Mainly that is questioning peoples' motives just because they do not match your own. You say they are tearing TNA apart. Well, the fact is we still like TNA. We are not defending any individuals that are involved in TNA. We are defending our personal opinion of the product. You may be defending yours. The true folly is this concept that it is a fact that you cannot possibly enjoy TNA right now. That is simply bullshit. That does not mean we think it is perfect. It just means we like more than we dislike. Maybe the breakdown is different for you and that is completely understandable. People should quit pretending they are business experts in a veiled attempt to justify their opinions though. The people that only like those from the indy TNA have been quite critical of the product and those you mention.

TNA has similarities to WCW? So? TNA would kill to be doing the ratings WCW was when they went out of business. The business model is quite different. Quality was not the predominant factor in WCW going out of business. TNA has always had a lot of gimmick matches and under the watch of Hogan and Bischoff AJ Styles became the longest reigning WHC, MCMG got the title they never had before and Beer Money are the current tag champs right now. They tried to push the hell out of a homegrown guy in Abyss and everyone hated it. Every company has used worked shoots and most have benefited from them. Are you planning on mentioning giving Anderson a shot no one else has anytime? Still not sure why people talk about how great TNA was a few years back like Russo wasn't there then.

WWE has similarities to WWF. O M G ... I guess that means that their business is going to be as successful as the attitude era ?

 

[Jackal960]

I started watching TNA when I realized wrestling started to be for younger kids, not adults like me. In times like these you give an edgier show like TNA as much chance as possible. Do they fail sometimes? Yes. But are they trying to be an alternative? Yes. It feels more like a 90's show than today's WWE. And i will take that over today's WWE show (which is kid-oriented) any given day. The storylines might look similar to WCW as the OP mentioned. But you know what? I will also take WCW in 90's over today's wrestling shows.

It's not WWE or TNA or WCW, or their storylines. It's the fact that if you want a demographic to watch you, you need to offer them something. If i watch a show and think that it's not for me, i leave them with their target demographics. In current TNA the storylines are edgier, the roster has talent (although i sometimes think its misused) and they are trying to do something new. Not because i am a huge Hogan, Russo, Bischoff fan, but if they are offering these under this regime i will watch that. I also want to add that TNA is much more watchable than it was a year ago. As long as there is a steady improvement they are doing the right thing.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

So nick, from your post I think you are trying to tell TNA marks that they should not be prejudiced in their love for TNA. At the same time you are trying to put down TNA for the simple reason that they are being booked by a bunch of guys who were responsible for the destruction of another company. Is that not prejudice?

I mean just look at some of the points you have mentioned.

Not Building for the Future

As TNA fans, I cannot understand how the majority of you can constantly defend the way the show is being booked right now. A.J. Styles, the poster boy of TNA, has suffered terribly under this regime. I like that he's now leading the charge against Immortal, but that doesn't excuse how poorly he's been used over the last 6-9 months, and it doesn't mean he's going to stay on top for long.

Christopher Daniels is gone, Joe is a mid-carder, Amazing Red is on television once every two months (if lucky), Magnus barely exists, etc.

Instead, TNA has brought in a past-his-prime Jeff Hardy, an over-the-hill RVD, and a never-was like Matt Hardy to lead the way. Eric Bischoff and Ric Flair dominate the show, and the same goes for Hogan when he's there. Guys like Doug Williams, A.J. Styles, Samoa Joe and Jay Lethal are carrying the load in the ring, while these other "big name" guys who "draw money" dominate the main event scene. Sound familiar?

I mean really? Did you not see the way Mr Anderson has been built from the time he entered TNA? Or Matt Morgan has been since he split up? AJ needed that time in the midcard to refresh his character a bit. Just because he is the face of the company does not mean that he has to stay in the main event all the time and get stale. I respect AJ even more for that. His stepping down to the midcard ensured that Mr Anderson got pushed and that has worked pretty well.

This comment is just wrong. TNA, at different points in their run, have pushed guys like even Pope pretty heavily. Kazarian and Beer Money look primed to compete against the wrath of The Immortal faction along with AJ. But I guess they are not creating any stars, are they?

Anything and Everything Related to Immortal

If you don't see a direct parallel between this angle and the nWo saga, you're either deaf and blind, or you didn't watch WCW during the mid-to-late 90's.

Jeff Hardy turning heel at Bound for Glory 2010 was a total regurgitation of Hogan turning heel at Bash at the Beach 1996. Did it happen the exact same way? Of course not, small changes were made. But the "impact" was intended to have the same effect (no, Hardy turning did not have nearly the impact of Hogan turning).

What was the point of this entire angle? To establish a giant heel stable, which is now known as Immortal. While running WCW, Hogan and Bischoff relied upon the nWo to not only keep television ratings and PPV buyrates where they needed them, but to ensure Hogan could stay on top as long as possible.

People leaving and joining the group on a very frequent basis. A corrupt official (Bischoff's son and Nick Patrick). A new swerve taking place nearly every other week. "Legal" battles. The list goes on and on. Why do these similarities scare the living shit out of me? Because what helped turn WCW into a powerhouse company (the nWo) was also the cause of it's death.

What ultimately caused WCW's death was a combination of their financial problems and the fact that they allowed the nWo to run on for too long and that the storylines that they attempted after the nWo were rip offs off the nWo. Immortal has only been in existence for four months. Yes, I can see the parallels between the storyline but imagine if there is an ending to this story unlike what happened in the case of nWo. Won't the guy who takes down Immortal go over huge? You cannot say that that won't happen this time round. If anything the fact that nWo failed ensures that Bischoff won't make the same mistake again.

Your hatred for the faction just on the basis that they are similar to the nWo in some respects reeks of prejudice.

"Worked shoots" became infamous in WCW, and are being used the same way in TNA. It's lazy booking, and takes no creativity. They take real-life situations (Karen/Jeff/Kurt in TNA and Hogan/Russ in WCW are some examples), no matter how uncomfortable it makes those involved, and uses those stories to avoid being creative. It's pretty simple, actually.

Um yeah and worked shoots are a concept that have never been attempted by any other company? Seriously don't you see how well the Angle/ Jarrett saga is working? Didn't Edge/ Lita/ Hardy work? Your hatred for such type of storylines does not mean that they don't work. I'm personally not a huge fan of them but I cannot say that they do not work.

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I could go on about your other points too but I think that it's a futile excercise. From the title alone, anyone can guess that you are too prejudiced against Hogan, Bischoff and Russo to even think clearly. Just think of it this way. Bischoff is said to have been the brains behind the Elimination Chamber match and the MITB match. That proves, doesn't it, that not all his ideas are shit.

I'm not saying that TNA will ever defeat the WWE or even come close. But to hate them just on the basis of who they are run by is not justified.

 

[Prince Punk]

I might break down a few parts tomorrow but where you are going wrong is the same place we go wrong as well. Mainly that is questioning peoples' motives just because they do not match your own. You say they are tearing TNA apart. Well, the fact is we still like TNA. We are not defending any individuals that are involved in TNA. We are defending our personal opinion of the product. You may be defending yours. The true folly is this concept that it is a fact that you cannot possibly enjoy TNA right now. That is simply bullshit. That does not mean we think it is perfect. It just means we like more than we dislike. Maybe the breakdown is different for you and that is completely understandable. People should quit pretending they are business experts in a veiled attempt to justify their opinions though. The people that only like those from the indy TNA have been quite critical of the product and those you mention.

TNA has similarities to WCW? So? TNA would kill to be doing the ratings WCW was when they went out of business. The business model is quite different. Quality was not the predominant factor in WCW going out of business. TNA has always had a lot of gimmick matches and under the watch of Hogan and Bischoff AJ Styles became the longest reigning WHC, MCMG got the title they never had before and Beer Money are the current tag champs right now. They tried to push the hell out of a homegrown guy in Abyss and everyone hated it. Every company has used worked shoots and most have benefited from them. Are you planning on mentioning giving Anderson a shot no one else has anytime? Still not sure why people talk about how great TNA was a few years back like Russo wasn't there then.

WWE has similarities to WWF. O M G ... I guess that means that their business is going to be as successful as the attitude era ?

Umm... First off I think I shall start this off in a way I have never done before.. Mostly due to the fact that you say people always try and act like big business experts and say they are running the company wrong... While personally I do think they should look into firing people every now and again I have never screamed about their business ethics and the main argument here is not about business. It's about Creative and the lack there of in TNA.
No offense to any TNA fan when I say this. (by none I mean by all means lower my rep another 35346535435 points) You have to be either highly uneducated or dumb yourself down to enjoy the jerry springer..errrr... I mean TNA storytelling.. "Ooooo That man just called that other man a sonova bitch and they are now brawling" too bad they won't be seen for the next month..
I'm sorry guys I keep giving TNA a chance. But here I am a creative writer myself (1 year away from my bachelors mind you) and I just sit and stare at all the really pathetic storylines. Yeah they have "edge" and "profanity" bloodshed and "hardcore!" But when they run angles like EV2 and give guys who were past their prime 10 (sometimes even 20+) years ago more TV time than the young talent that can put on a show in the ring they have a problem...
I only despise TNA for the fact that they have such a great talent pool, and they had such a great X-division (keyword: had) and the six-sided ring made them different.. Yet they have let it all go to waste...
For the love of god they used "they" as a concept to describe a group coming in.. OOOOOO I'm shaking!!! Yet they did not use it once but twice!!!
Oh and on a last note if they use the phrase "they are coming" again within the next year TNA fans should know the they will then be the unemployment line as the company closes down..

Also.. Slyfox Don't EVER compare Undertaker,Cena, HHH, Flair's mid-card feuds as main Eventers to AJ styles dropping from champion to lackey that is a true demotion. The men in question were set in the main event (with the exception of flair who could still have wrestled at their level) they were putting other people over. As someone else's bitch Styles was not helping anyone...

 

[UltimateHitman]

I've pointed out this fact a few times before. If you don't see the parallels, you are either blind or in denial. Anybody who watched the rapid decline of WCW should immediately see the connections. I think Nickb hit the nail on the proverbial head.

If you do not see the blatant re-use of the NWO angle in Immortal, see above. Rogue stable comes in, runs roughshod over the people in charge, and takes control of the programming. Of course they're not stupid enough to go full blown identical, but let's face it, if they could get away w/a "burning" Immortal logo overtaking the TNA one, they would. (And it's always hilarious hearing people bash Nexus for being an NWO rip-off and then turn around and claim Immortal is anything but. Ludicrous, I tell you.)

And just an idea, but maybe the reason it's being slightly subdued this time around is that they realize it's not having the same effect. I'd also bet that if Immortal garnered as much attention as the NWO did in WCW, they'd be doing the same exact stories and pushing the hell out of it to the point of self destruction, same as before (not that they don't appear to be trying, mind you).

Another point I found interesting was the mention of Russo/Bischoff/Hogan not giving guys pushes because they don't "draw". I would love to ask those three how they expect any growth or expect those guys to draw if never given a chance. If you hold somebody back and don't give them the time to get better at what they do through experience and find out if they grow on an audience or not, then of course they'll never draw. Common sense dictates that if I'm not given the opportunity to have more exposure, time, and storylines, then it won't happen until I'm given the time to win the crowd and draw them in. Like what was mentioned w/Guerrero, Jericho, Benoit, etc. etc. They weren't considered "draws" in WCW because they were never given the opportunity to draw. They went to WWE, and what happens? Exactly.

There are plenty of other things that mirror the WCW times. Things such as the way they harp about things and themselves being "cutting edge" "the best place to be in wrestling", "raising the bar" (still makes me sick hearing that phrase). Plus how they always have to over promote the next "big, huge, history making, earth shattering" event to the point that you're sick of the idea before they even unveil it. Classic WCW end run feel.

You have the same style set up, lighting, and camera angles. The same style backstage segments. The same kind of "worked shoot" stuff nickb was talking about. Even the announce booth feels like WCW for fuck's sake.

Let's not forget the roster. Half the current (and top members) of the roster are the same ones that were in the same spots in WCW (yes, I'm exaggerating w/the "half" part. But only slightly) And what about roster saturation in general? Same thing that happened in Turner Land, only this time they only have one show instead of two so that much more of the people they pay get to dick around w/out even having to show up for the tapings.

The only thing saving TNA this time is that the concept isn't as fresh as the NWO was back when it was formed, so they don't have the ratings advantage they did back then which probably increased their hold over the company and don't have the extra cash flow to pad their wallets with and further the company's collapse. Immortal might have been a storyline that, at the least, piqued one or two people's curiosity here and there but not as significantly as the first time around when it was in NWO form. It just doesn't have the impact that it had in the past and as such people simply aren't shocked this time around.

Fact is, TNA is literally the ECW sized, modern day WCW. The difference is that TNA still has the potential to become a competitor to the "E" and be a serious thorn in Vince's side and could pull off the impossible if they just opened their eyes a little. What brought WCW crashing down can easily be a small blemish in TNA's history if they do something sooner rather than later. Only time will tell if our concerns were justified or if they have the sense of mind to change it before it's too late.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Trust me, I don't criticize TNA "just because."

I do. While I do have some legit complaints about the product, and that's putting it delicately, a lot of my incessant bashing comes simply from the rise it gets out of the fanbase. It's hilarious to me. I've been accused of being a WWE fanboy quite often, usually by people who have been posting here for like 3 days. Truthfully, I used to be one of the TNA marks that took a lot of heat for actually supporting the company. However, I won't just blindly follow like the majority of them seem to do now. I feel like the product I used to support was an entirely different product than the rubbish I see today, and I place the bulk of the blame on Creative.

The major complaint I have with TNA Creative is that they seem so determined to cater to the Internet community by emphasizing on the areas of the WWE product that IWC hates. This could work, but instead of finding a happy medium, they go so far in the opposite direction of the WWE that they're just as bad for different reasons. I'll explain.

Mic Work/Promos

The huge complaint these days is that the WWE over scripts their promos and doesn't allow any leeway for the performers to lend their own personality to their character like the greats of the past used to. TNA tries to capitalize on this by giving the performer room for improvisation, but it seems like they give them too much freedom. Instead of going out with any kind of direction or talking points, they seem to over talk and try to do too much. Perfect example is Mr. Anderson. He is one of the few people in the industry that is naturally gifted when it comes to public speaking. But somehow, his mic work has diminished significantly since joining TNA.

Storylines

Now a lot of people seem to hate how mundane and simple a lot of the programs in the WWE are. Not a lot stands out. Now TNA seems to try to go opposite again, but once again they go too far. Instead of adding a few more elements to the story and give them some depth, they go out of control with outrageous convoluted stories that don't really tend to deliver on the initial build up.

PG Era

Everyone hates the PG Era. Not a day goes by without constant bitching about how the WWE panders to children and Cena Sux!!11 TNA sees this and thinks they should take this in the opposite direction. A good idea in theory, why not take the opposite route and cater your products toward adults? Unfortunately, they fail at this as well. Instead of adding some more adult oriented material, they blatantly rip off movies, tv shows, and random areas of pop culture while simply adding curse words thinking that it would be enough.

Look, despite my incessant bashing, I do want TNA to succeed. Believe it or not, despite me being a "WWE fanboy" I think there are a lot of things the WWE could improve on, and having a valid competitor to drive them can only work to benefit the industry as a whole. Seeing how the IWC seems to have such an effect on the way TNA runs it's company, I'd like to think that the rest of you would encourage them to do a better job than this. Because if they keep going at this rate, it's going to fail.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Obviously I'm not going to respond to everything you guys say, but I'll do my best.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't TNA's ratings been as good now as they've ever been? Didn't Jarrett come out recently and speak about how TNA is profitable? It seems to me TNA has been doing better with AJ in the background.

Yeah, this thread wasn't really about the ratings, but I get what you're saying. In January, the rating was anywhere between 1.15 and 1.28, and it wasn't consistently going up or down. The February 3rd show got a 1.31, one of their highest ratings ever. Solid numbers, but can they maintain that moving forward? We've seen jumps before, and then it goes back down. We'll just have to wait and see.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm as big of an AJ fan as I am a Cena fan. But I don't think you can make an argument right now that AJ Styles is a big draw for TNA.

I clearly said A.J. wasn't a draw. No one over there, right now, is considered a real draw (unless you believe Flair and Hogan still are). But what kind of difference have guys like Hardy and RVD really made? This is about the parallels between WCW and TNA, and I clearly see them. WCW was able to bring in men who actually made a difference (unlike the new faces in TNA) in the ratings, and still managed to send the whole thing down the shitter. Why? Because they didn't worry about building anyone up. They worried about the next weeks ratings, and nothing more. Because of these decisions, WCW wasn't prepared for the future. I don't believe TNA is either.

I started watching TNA when I realized wrestling started to be for younger kids, not adults like me. In times like these you give an edgier show like TNA as much chance as possible. Do they fail sometimes? Yes. But are they trying to be an alternative? Yes.

I like the adult-oriented aspect, I really do. That's one of the draws TNA can capitalize on. But trying to be a good alternative, and actually being one are two different things. Being different doesn't always equal a quality show.

So nick, from your post I think you are trying to tell TNA marks that they should not be prejudiced in their love for TNA. At the same time you are trying to put down TNA for the simple reason that they are being booked by a bunch of guys who were responsible for the destruction of another company. Is that not prejudice?

If I actually wrote what you said I did, then yes, that would be prejudice. But I didn't. I clearly said I was excited for their arrival. They know more about wrestling than I could ever hope to (that's why I'm a critic on a forum..like the rest of you..and not booking ). So again, I'm not saying they can't be original, I'm saying they are not doing so. I watch TNA each and every week, and I know what I'm seeing. They are taking a very familiar path in how the show is booked, and that's not even an opinion..it's a fact.

I mean really? Did you not see the way Mr Anderson has been built from the time he entered TNA? Or Matt Morgan has been since he split up? AJ needed that time in the midcard to refresh his character a bit. Just because he is the face of the company does not mean that he has to stay in the main event all the time and get stale. I respect AJ even more for that. His stepping down to the midcard ensured that Mr Anderson got pushed and that has worked pretty well.

If you think having your absolute best wrestler, A.J. Styles, in the mid-card for over six months while we watch Jeff Hardy stumble around the ring is a good idea, I don't know what to do for you. I said I was glad he's moving back up, and I think it's good for TNA. If they are looking to expand their audience, a washed-up Jeff Hardy probably isn't going to work.

Ken Anderson is a different deal entirely. He's a fresh face in the wrestling business, and has nowhere to go but up. I didn't say every, single thing they have done has been garbage..just the majority.

This comment is just wrong. TNA, at different points in their run, have pushed guys like even Pope pretty heavily.

True, he got a decent push. Now what is he doing? He turned heel, out of nowhere, and is stealing charity money and teaming with "Bully Ray." Gimme a break.

What ultimately caused WCW's death was a combination of their financial problems and the fact that they allowed the nWo to run on for too long and that the storylines that they attempted after the nWo were rip offs off the nWo. Immortal has only been in existence for four months. Yes, I can see the parallels between the storyline but imagine if there is an ending to this story unlike what happened in the case of nWo. Won't the guy who takes down Immortal go over huge? You cannot say that that won't happen this time round. If anything the fact that nWo failed ensures that Bischoff won't make the same mistake again.

Again, you are totally raping what I said. IF they handle the Immortal angle like you say they will, and that is possible (I never said it was set in stone), then I'll be happy. I didn't say I was convinced TNA would run this storyline longer than needed, I said I was skeptical. Why? Because the same men (who you admit) took the nWo too far are once again in charge of a similar storyline. I'm not making this up, it happened.

Your hatred for the faction just on the basis that they are similar to the nWo in some respects reeks of prejudice.

And your inability to comprehend what I've actually said reeks of ignorance. If you think I "hate" Immortal just because it's similar to the nWo, you're way off base and probably didn't read what I said closely enough.

Um yeah and worked shoots are a concept that have never been attempted by any other company? Seriously don't you see how well the Angle/ Jarrett saga is working?

It's been funny, I'll give you that.

I could go on about your other points too but I think that it's a futile excercise. From the title alone, anyone can guess that you are too prejudiced against Hogan, Bischoff and Russo to even think clearly. Just think of it this way.

Yeah, so prejudiced that I buy PPV's and watch the show every week. Yeah, I'm the biggest hater on the planet. This is what bothers me. If you don't suck TNA's d*** after each episode, you're labeled a hater. If you don't like the fact that we're at war in Iraq, you aren't a patriot. Same shit, different story.

Bischoff is said to have been the brains behind the Elimination Chamber match and the MITB match. That proves, doesn't it, that not all his ideas are shit.

WHO SAID ALL OF HIS IDEAS WERE SHIT??? You have done nothing so far but lie about what I've actually said. I hope anyone who reads this response has taken the time to pay attention the OP, and not make the same mistake rattlesnake has made.

I'm not saying that TNA will ever defeat the WWE or even come close. But to hate them just on the basis of who they are run by is not justified.

Here's something for you TNA marks; I HOPE TNA defeats WWE! I hope it becomes a ratings war, and TNA becomes serious competition. Both will benefit, and we'll have two great shows. Guess I'm not such a hater after all


EDIT: Also, please keep in mind the idea behind this thread is who do you support? The talent, or the creative team? Or both? If you think that both sides are working fine together, good for you. If you think this is just about some guy bashing TNA, you're wrong.

 

[Maine90]

For goodness sake, do you guys know how many blogs and forums are on the internet that bashes and criticize TNA? Lots.... who cares its WRESTLING "ENTERTAINMENT" you guys that get on here who whine and cry and mope about "I keep giving TNA chance after chance but they keep screwing up" BOO HOO.... Stop acting like this shit is your wife or girlfriend, its a show for crying out loud, do you guys really think EB, Russo, or Hulk or Dixie give a damn what you think or say everyday NO!!!!!!!!!! I watch TNA and like it, I used to watch WWE/F during that attitude era, but I'm not going to let them force me to watch their product and force me to like Nexus, Shamus, (what's with the "us"?), Jack Swagger, Del Rio, etc, now they are good performers but TNA has good performers as well AJ, Joe,Beer Money,Etc but, the businesses today is his dry,most if these guys do have the charisma like The Rock, Stone Cold, Goldberg, Sting, Hogan, Flair, HBK, HHH, etc... these guys had so much realism to their character even though it was entertainent it felt real.... Now that we are in the age of information hell everything is a spoiler instead of waiting till next week to tune in.... I'm only 21 If you don't like TNA don't watch it and if you don't like WWE don't watch it but Danny stop coming on sites bashing and criticizing it.... who cares his remember its "ENTERTAINMENT".... Open your mind guys damn....

 

[bigJOE]

to the OP.....*stands and applauds* hammer. nail. head. every point, dead on. can't see how anyone can argue otherwise.

 

[Nate DaMac]

EDIT: Also, please keep in mind the idea behind this thread is who do you support? The talent, or the creative team? Or both? If you think that both sides are working fine together, good for you. If you think this is just about some guy bashing TNA, you're wrong.

After reviewing my post, I realized that while I stated that I hate Creative's direction, I didn't state who I support.

Despite how much I hate TNA as a whole, There are some performers that I fully support.

AJ Styles

Yes I think the Fourtune/Immortal "swerve" bullshit this past week on iMPACT was a bust. Having said that, AJ provided probably his best promo to date. He's always been a tremendous in ring talent, but I now believe he is as much of a complete all around performer as anyone in the industry.

Beer Money

The best Tag Team in wrestling, though that isn't saying a whole lot. Honestly, I think highly of them as individuals more than I do as a Tag Team. They can both talk, they can both go in the ring, shit there really isn't anything negative I can say about them. If they ever split, they could put on an amazing feud against one another. Barring the terrible booking TNA is predisposed to anyway.

Mr. Anderson

The dude just has the star quality.

There's plenty other talented members of the TNA roster, those are just my favorites off the top of my head. I absolutely despise the way that TNA's Creative Team handles the programming, but the talent in the roster has amazing potential. That is where my support lies.

 

[SpecialFNK]

I support both the TNA talent and the writing/creative team. Russo isn't that bad, but it would be better if he had someone to tell him what works and doesn't work.

people compare Immortal in TNA to nWo in WCW. no doubt. but nWo at it's height gave WCW higher ratings than WWE. Immortal is still going and they haven't been together that long. you can't just assume they will run on and end the same way nWo did. if AJ and Fortune end up beating Immortal(which should happen) then you have just elevated AJ/Fortune.

I also often see a lot of complaining about the older veterans in TNA. they are needed. your not just going after true wrestling viewers, there are a lot of general viewers that know names. lets say you have great young talent that nobody knows VS another great young talent that nobody knows. wrestling fans can be wetting their pants, OMG this is awesome! ..but if general viewers don't have a clue who they are it's not going to matter who wins. what TNA should be doing is using these name wrestlers that more people know about, to help get over the younger talent so those who do know the names can be like ..wow this guy I don't know just beat the guy I do know, this guy I don't know must be good.
I bet my left nut there are more potential general viewers than there are true wrestling viewers that would only want to see just wrestling. if you cut the promos/talking and went with just wrestling, I guarantee you TNA wouldn't last long on TV. I'm not saying TNA shouldn't have much wrestling and do think they should have more than they do, but story lines/promos/talking are just as important. your on prime time TV, people want to see drama. wrestling on TV is for entertainment, it's a TV show.

 

[UltimateHitman]

I, like Nate, also realized that I didn't address the fact of who I supported. (Although you could probably guess...) Hands down it's the talent.

Respect for certain talent is what keeps me tuning in every week. I began my TNA watching rooting for them and even when it was turning to sh*t I would defend it by saying "there are still some awesome talents who give their all out there". The more I said it, though, the less credibility it had and the more "holding on to a last, desperate ray of hope" feel it had.

I like quite a few talents there, even prior WWE talents. I like TNA originals too, and think that there is a spot for both. But only when there's a creative team in place that HASN'T run a multi-billion dollar company into the ground already.

One more point on that subject. To all the people saying "TNA should put more money into the product, traveling, live shows", etc. I have but one question. Why in the blue hell do you think that would work when these guys were already given a bottomless pit of an account to work with and STILL killed WCW? Don't you think they had endless amounts of financial resources to utilize while in charge so many years ago? They used it to make themselves rich, not to save the company. And if given the same access I would not hesitate to make the claim that they would do the same again. Guaranteed. The only reason they're not repeating history is probably because Panda Energy gives them a strict budget to work with and they realize they can't milk them like they did Turner.

But back to the talent, I love Styles, Beer Money, MCMG, Anderson, Morgan (although he still needs some fine tuning), the knockouts, Eric Young, Doug Williams (even though he's kind of bland personality-wise), Kendrick is absolute gold in his new loony gimmick, the list goes on and on. I even appreciate Orlando Jordan's ability and think he's a good addition to the roster and I'm still a mark for the Austin-ized version of Shark Boy. It's just too damn funny and classic for me to hate.

The point is, is that TNA has the talent to get to a higher level then they already are. With a better, finer tuned, fresher creative team in place, I think the place could grow by leaps and bounds instead of just getting by w/where they are now. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the terrible triad of booking is keeping the ratings where they are on purpose in order to squeeze more money out of Panda. Yeah, I said it, and believe it wholeheartedly. I definitely would NOT put it past them.

 

[SpecialFNK]

it wasn't just Bischoff/Russo/ect that put WCW out of business. I don't know exactly what went on towards the end of WCW because I wasn't watching as much then, but I'm sure there were some stupid things going on. like David Arquette being world champion(WTF). however that was not the main reason WCW went under. WCW owner Ted Turner and Time Warner merged with AOL. when merged the new people had no interest in holding onto a wrestling business. Bischoff himself even actually had interest in buying the wrestling company.

did I see this. Kendrick is gold? Brian Kendrick? I think he's totally useless myself.

 

[shattered dreams]

I am still waiting for someone to explain why having similarities to WCW is bad thing if your payroll is nowhere near the same size and the business backing you is supportive. Being compared to WCW is arguably a step in the right direction. It sure is a step up from being compared to ROH or ECW.

What I do not get about posts like Nate's is that he says these are the guys I like but creative is bad yadda yadda yadda. Well, AJ Styles is presently at the front of a major story. IMO his improvements into being one of the best all around performers is directly attributable to how he has been used in that time period everyone complained about. Since Hogan and Bischoff came in Styles became the longest reigning WHC, the only grand slam champion in TNA history and on Hogan's big debut show beat Angle clean in an epic match. I just do not get the obsession with AJ being booked like Cena was when everyone grew to hate him. Mr Anderson and Beer Money are the champions. What more do you want? People need to get over the beginning of last year and look at what creative has been doing since then. Listing X things you dislike that they did proves nothing. It basically just shows your determination to present an unbalanced argument.

I asked this in another thread of this nature and never really got much in the way of attempts to answer it. We always hear love the talent, hate the creative as well as the idea that it all went to hell once Bischoff and Hogan came in. My question is besides AJ just who are these people that are on the roster that you think are talented that were booked worse than they were prior to last year?

Something else I do not quite get about the OP. How exactly would people not realize they were supporting Hogan and Bischoff by supporting TNA if they "dominate the show" as we so often hear as they are the subject of practically every post in this section?

 

[MB1025]

I also want to know why and how people come to conclusion that Ric Flair, RVD, Jeff Hardy, Hulk Hogan, and Eric Bischoff have not helped TNA? Just because the ratings haven't popped at a ridiculous number doesn't mean they don't help them. TNA, after DVR numbers, usually get a little over 2.1 million viewers. 2.1 million people watch their product. Now those names may not bring in anymore people, but who is more likely to sell an action figure, t-shirt, or dvd?

The biggest wrestling action figure website in the world has a top seller list.


1. "GLOW PAINT" JEFF HARDY RINGSIDE EXCLUSIVE

4. ICONS OF WRESTLING HULK HOGAN & STING RINGSIDE EXCLUSIVE2-PACK

5. HULK HOGAN TNA DELUXE IMPACT 2

9. JEFF HARDY TNA DELUXE IMPACT 4

11. ROB VAN DAM TNA DELUXE IMPACT 4


Not to mention Shop TNA's top 10 best sellers.

Don's Insane Brown Bag Special
Jeff Hardy "The Ring Is My Canvas"
Hardcore Justice - 2010
TNA The Best Of The Asylum Years Volume 1
RVD - Video Wall
Jeff Hardy Arm Bands
Jeff Hardy Enigma T-Shirt (Glow In The Dark)
Mr Anderson.........People Are Fake T-Shirt
Sacrifice - 2005
Hulkamania Bandana

I included Mr. Anderson because he is also labeled as a "WWE" reject.

To be fair we have no idea how much merchandise they sell, but for as much figures as ringside collectibles sells and for the 2.1 million people that watch TNA I am sure it has to be a good amount.

I also don't remember a time where TNA was going to tape multiple Impacts through out the year outside of Orlando. I am sure those names mentioned above have nothing to do with that either.

I know this doesn't cover everything that was said, but I needed to get this off my chest because ratings, even though important, is not the only way people can help and make money for your company.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

TNA has similarities to WCW? So? TNA would kill to be doing the ratings WCW was when they went out of business. The business model is quite different. Quality was not the predominant factor in WCW going out of business. TNA has always had a lot of gimmick matches and under the watch of Hogan and Bischoff AJ Styles became the longest reigning WHC, MCMG got the title they never had before and Beer Money are the current tag champs right now. They tried to push the hell out of a homegrown guy in Abyss and everyone hated it. Every company has used worked shoots and most have benefited from them. Are you planning on mentioning giving Anderson a shot no one else has anytime? Still not sure why people talk about how great TNA was a few years back like Russo wasn't there then.

You're making some of this more complicated than it needs to be. WCW went out of business because the crowd diminished, and it was nearly as valuable without huge ratings. AOL was interested in what shows got what ratings. If WCW had been as big as it was three years earlier, I doubt AOL would have been so quick to get rid of it.

WWE has similarities to WWF. O M G ... I guess that means that their business is going to be as successful as the attitude era ?

Big difference in a company profiting off of a once popular era, and another company going down the same road as another that is now out of business. The comparison doesn't work.

For goodness sake, do you guys know how many blogs and forums are on the internet that bashes and criticize TNA? Lots.... who cares its WRESTLING "ENTERTAINMENT" you guys that get on here who whine and cry and mope about "I keep giving TNA chance after chance but they keep screwing up" BOO HOO.... Stop acting like this shit is your wife or girlfriend, its a show for crying out loud, do you guys really think EB, Russo, or Hulk or Dixie give a damn what you think or say everyday NO!!!!!!!!!! I watch TNA and like it, I used to watch WWE/F during that attitude era, but I'm not going to let them force me to watch their product and force me to like Nexus, Shamus, (what's with the "us"?), Jack Swagger, Del Rio, etc, now they are good performers but TNA has good performers as well AJ, Joe,Beer Money,Etc but, the businesses today is his dry,most if these guys do have the charisma like The Rock, Stone Cold, Goldberg, Sting, Hogan, Flair, HBK, HHH, etc... these guys had so much realism to their character even though it was entertainent it felt real.... Now that we are in the age of information hell everything is a spoiler instead of waiting till next week to tune in.... I'm only 21 If you don't like TNA don't watch it and if you don't like WWE don't watch it but Danny stop coming on sites bashing and criticizing it.... who cares his remember its "ENTERTAINMENT".... Open your mind guys damn....

Open your eyes, and read. This is why it's tough to put something in one of the non-spam sections. You get generalized drivel like this.

I support both the TNA talent and the writing/creative team. Russo isn't that bad, but it would be better if he had someone to tell him what works and doesn't work.

This has always been the knock on Russo. It's almost like people in the business think he's too creative for his own good. He comes up with wild, outlandish ideas, and unleashes them on air. Some people say Russo has never had any success, but I disagree. He is in need of a choke collar though.

people compare Immortal in TNA to nWo in WCW. no doubt. but nWo at it's height gave WCW higher ratings than WWE. Immortal is still going and they haven't been together that long. you can't just assume they will run on and end the same way nWo did. if AJ and Fortune end up beating Immortal(which should happen) then you have just elevated AJ/Fortune.

Yeah, I agree about Fourtune taking out Immortal. Even though I hate the Immortal angle, and I'm definitely not alone in that, it would be a huge deal for TNA. I'm not bashing TNA's ratings seeing they just got one of the biggest they have ever had. I'm pointing out that keeping something like Immortal around for too long will hurt the program, I have no doubts about that. Again, I am not saying this will happen. I'm saying I'm skeptical, because it's happened before.

I also often see a lot of complaining about the older veterans in TNA. they are needed. your not just going after true wrestling viewers, there are a lot of general viewers that know names. lets say you have great young talent that nobody knows VS another great young talent that nobody knows. wrestling fans can be wetting their pants, OMG this is awesome! ..but if general viewers don't have a clue who they are it's not going to matter who wins. what TNA should be doing is using these name wrestlers that more people know about, to help get over the younger talent so those who do know the names can be like ..wow this guy I don't know just beat the guy I do know, this guy I don't know must be good.
I bet my left nut there are more potential general viewers than there are true wrestling viewers that would only want to see just wrestling. if you cut the promos/talking and went with just wrestling, I guarantee you TNA wouldn't last long on TV. I'm not saying TNA shouldn't have much wrestling and do think they should have more than they do, but story lines/promos/talking are just as important. your on prime time TV, people want to see drama. wrestling on TV is for entertainment, it's a TV show.

I agree with a lot of this, and I understand the need for veteran/established talent. But if TNA makes the same mistake as WCW (and again, I'm not saying they definitely will) and only features the guys people already know, no one is going to tune in after those guys have left to see the new crop of talent. You have to do both, and TNA hasn't done a great job of that over the last year.

I am still waiting for someone to explain why having similarities to WCW is bad thing if your payroll is nowhere near the same size and the business backing you is supportive.

That's obviously a plus. But don't forget that once upon a time, WCW had a lot backing as well. What hurt that support? Diminished quality and low ratings. I understand that TNA really can't go much lower with the rating, but people like Panda, Spike, etc. are in the business of growing profits. If TNA doesn't show growth, it's not hard to believe that support will dwindle. And putting on a solid, quality show will help the audience grow.

If you want to talk numbers as they relate to TNA's success, you can't say they have shown much improvement over the last year. I have heard they are turning a profit, and I believe it. But for how long will that profit be enough?

Being compared to WCW is arguably a step in the right direction. It sure is a step up from being compared to ROH or ECW.

Agreed. However, being compared to WCW between 1999 and 2001 doesn't speak volumes about the quality of the programming, and the simple fact is that quality draws fans.

I asked this in another thread of this nature and never really got much in the way of attempts to answer it. We always hear love the talent, hate the creative as well as the idea that it all went to hell once Bischoff and Hogan came in. My question is besides AJ just who are these people that are on the roster that you think are talented that were booked worse than they were prior to last year?

And I've asked this question plenty of times, and gotten no answer; where is the improvement? Do you honestly think TNA is better, quality wise, than it was a year ago? A year and a half ago? Bischoff and Hogan were not brought in to keep things right where they were. They were brought in to improve the promotion. And in my opinion, they haven't.

Something else I do not quite get about the OP. How exactly would people not realize they were supporting Hogan and Bischoff by supporting TNA if they "dominate the show" as we so often hear as they are the subject of practically every post in this section?

Bischoff/Russo/Hogan are in charge. They book the show, write the angles, etc. If people love TNA so much, and keep in mind I'm talking about the guys who busted their asses long before Hogan/Bischoff got there, why constantly stick up for the new guys? How many reports have we read about the talent being unhappy with the current direction of the company? Hell, Kevin Nash said one of the biggest reasons he didn't go back was because he didn't like where the creative angles were going.

Shattered, I believe you really like the product. But some of the posts I read are so over-the-top in the love for anything/everything TNA is doing, it makes me think some of these people are just talking out of their asses. Before January of 2010, you couldn't read a TNA thread that didn't center around how great and underrated the talent was. Now, it's about how great the angles are, and how the "WWE fans" should shut up about it. A lot of people are blindly supporting a regime that is in direct opposition to the talent. At least that's the way I see it.

 

[DirtyJosé]

You're making some of this more complicated than it needs to be. WCW went out of business because the crowd diminished, and it was nearly as valuable without huge ratings. AOL was interested in what shows got what ratings. If WCW had been as big as it was three years earlier, I doubt AOL would have been so quick to get rid of it.

I don't know about that. Pure speculation on both our parts, but ratings weren't as crucial to AOL as revenue was. Ratings were down the tube, sure, but the numbers that mattered were that shows were no longer selling out in advance, even when they could muster up good ratings. Tickets weren't moving. Stunts that had seemingly worked in the past to squeeze out extra numbers did nothing. When WCW was bringing in nothing but million dollar losses, it didn't matter whether the ratings were good or not. AOL simply didn't have the patience with wrestling that Turner had.

Also, to a point SD made: WWE was gearing up to give Anderson that kind of chance...before he got fired.

That's obviously a plus. But don't forget that once upon a time, WCW had a lot backing as well. What hurt that support? Diminished quality and low ratings. I understand that TNA really can't go much lower with the rating, but people like Panda, Spike, etc. are in the business of growing profits. If TNA doesn't show growth, it's not hard to believe that support will dwindle. And putting on a solid, quality show will help the audience grow.

I think you understate the point SD was making. Damn near no one in TNA has any kind of contract similar to what WCW gave out back in it's day. Also, TNA could be doing MUCH MUCH worse. It runs just above the middle of the pack of Spike TV's original programming in average viewers last year:

2010 Primetime Averages for Original Episodes:

millions of viewers (adults 18-49 rating) - series
1.737 (1.0) - The Ultimate Fighter: Team GSP vs. Team Koscheck*
1.727 (0.7) - 1000 Ways to Die S2*
1.660 (0.9) - The Ultimate Fighter: Team Liddell vs. Team Ortiz*
1.468 (0.5) - TNA Impact! - Thursdays*
1.458 (0.6) - 1000 Ways to Die S3*
1.442 (0.6) - Auction Hunters S1*
1.243 (0.5) - Deadliest Warrior S2
1.169 (0.5) - TNA Impact! - Mondays*
1.036 (0.4) - Manswers S4
0.834 (0.4) - Pros vs. Joes S5*
0.772 (0.4) - Blue Mountain State S1*

So until the bottom falls out dramatically, I don't think Spike TV is going to be itchy to get rid of TNA anytime soon. There is certainly room for TNA to be doing worse.

If you want to talk numbers as they relate to TNA's success, you can't say they have shown much improvement over the last year. I have heard they are turning a profit, and I believe it. But for how long will that profit be enough?

For as long as it still profitable? TNA gets to enjoy spending MUCH MUCH less than WWE does. Taking Impact tapings on the road to a limited degree is extra ticket revenue, something they are usually pretty good at. Sure, I may think the show sucks for the most part, but they are doing fine as a company.

Agreed. However, being compared to WCW between 1999 and 2001 doesn't speak volumes about the quality of the programming, and the simple fact is that quality draws fans.

Quite honestly, the only that's kept me from TNA recently is "Bully Ray". The Immortal reveal was lame, but it did decent business for them. Remind me if I'm forgetting something big here, but I haven't seen any kind of "Bash at the Beach 2000" or "Fingerpoke of Doom" moment recently. That's the kind of WCW shit that turned off viewers in large number.

And I've asked this question plenty of times, and gotten no answer; where is the improvement? Do you honestly think TNA is better, quality wise, than it was a year ago? A year and a half ago? Bischoff and Hogan were not brought in to keep things right where they were. They were brought in to improve the promotion. And in my opinion, they haven't.

But they haven't sunk the boat yet either. They made some fails, and they've made some wins. It's been one year, and they didn't wreck Aunty Dixie's big shiny car by driving it off of a cliff like so many thought they would. The Monday Night move was stupid, and they've all admitted as such, but in this business you can't be afraid of taking a big risk like that. Didn't the 2/3/11 show just do a 1.31? That's not improvement?

Bischoff/Russo/Hogan are in charge. They book the show, write the angles, etc. If people love TNA so much, and keep in mind I'm talking about the guys who busted their asses long before Hogan/Bischoff got there, why constantly stick up for the new guys? How many reports have we read about the talent being unhappy with the current direction of the company? Hell, Kevin Nash said one of the biggest reasons he didn't go back was because he didn't like where the creative angles were going.

Bullshit. If Nash was being a cry baby about anyting, it was money. He wanted even more money from Carter, and she had the insight to turn him down. I'll try to dig up his recent whining on Twitter about it, but he tried to make a point that WWE wins because they would shell out the big bucks. I found that quite amusing, seeing as that was his exact sentiment upon leaving WWF for WCW back in the day. For all the talk of the TNA/WCW comparisons, I found this WWE/WCW comparison interesting.

As for reports of unhapiness, hasn't that always been the case? Again, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I recall there have always been a few malcontents floating in and out of TNA.

Shattered, I believe you really like the product. But some of the posts I read are so over-the-top in the love for anything/everything TNA is doing, it makes me think some of these people are just talking out of their asses. Before January of 2010, you couldn't read a TNA thread that didn't center around how great and underrated the talent was. Now, it's about how great the angles are, and how the "WWE fans" should shut up about it. A lot of people are blindly supporting a regime that is in direct opposition to the talent. At least that's the way I see it.

And I see this as over compensation. The only part of your OP that stood out to me as a true valid comparison was the repetition of "Worked Shoots" that we all know Russo loves to death. What's missing from TNA now is that concept flowing into every aspect of the show, right down to the announcers.

Fervent TNA marks are just as annoying as fervent WWE marks. There are still threads and discussion in the TNA sections about how great things are. There have always been anti-WWE sentiments expressed in the TNA sections, in part because of the criticisms they perceive as unfair from the WWE marks. Their ratings have more or less stayed in the same area they have been in the past, which isn't a bad thing really. Fans are still coming to their house shows and overseas tours. The only thing that changed in that year is your opinion on the product, which while valid is not an indication of impending danger for the company.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I don't know about that. Pure speculation on both our parts, but ratings weren't as crucial to AOL as revenue was. Ratings were down the tube, sure, but the numbers that mattered were that shows were no longer selling out in advance, even when they could muster up good ratings. Tickets weren't moving. Stunts that had seemingly worked in the past to squeeze out extra numbers did nothing. When WCW was bringing in nothing but million dollar losses, it didn't matter whether the ratings were good or not. AOL simply didn't have the patience with wrestling that Turner had.

Everything you hear about the WCW/AOL/Turner deal is speculation because everyone has a different story. While ratings being a big factor in the closing down of WCW is speculation, that theory actually makes a decent amount of sense. But I'm not going further into the death of WCW, this is about TNA as well.

I think you understate the point SD was making. Damn near no one in TNA has any kind of contract similar to what WCW gave out back in it's day. Also, TNA could be doing MUCH MUCH worse. It runs just above the middle of the pack of Spike TV's original programming in average viewers last year.

So until the bottom falls out dramatically, I don't think Spike TV is going to be itchy to get rid of TNA anytime soon. There is certainly room for TNA to be doing worse.

I don't recall predicting the closure of TNA. Did I do that? I'm just saying the whole scenario is playing out a lot like what happened in WCW. TNA operates on a much smaller scale than WCW, no doubt.

For as long as it still profitable? TNA gets to enjoy spending MUCH MUCH less than WWE does. Taking Impact tapings on the road to a limited degree is extra ticket revenue, something they are usually pretty good at. Sure, I may think the show sucks for the most part, but they are doing fine as a company.

I'm simply asking people to discuss whether it gets better or worse from here on out. Again, I'm not laying out some timetable for TNA's demise. I'm just asking everyone to really think about this from every angle.

Quite honestly, the only that's kept me from TNA recently is "Bully Ray". The Immortal reveal was lame, but it did decent business for them. Remind me if I'm forgetting something big here, but I haven't seen any kind of "Bash at the Beach 2000" or "Fingerpoke of Doom" moment recently. That's the kind of WCW shit that turned off viewers in large number.

No, TNA isn't to that point..yet. Maybe this will turn out in the complete opposite manner of what everyone thinks I'm hoping for (complete demise, which couldn't be further from the truth). But I have to be somewhat skeptical of where everything goes from here because of the way it turned out for WCW, and I hope everyone else considers that as well.

But they haven't sunk the boat yet either. They made some fails, and they've made some wins. It's been one year, and they didn't wreck Aunty Dixie's big shiny car by driving it off of a cliff like so many thought they would. The Monday Night move was stupid, and they've all admitted as such, but in this business you can't be afraid of taking a big risk like that. Didn't the 2/3/11 show just do a 1.31? That's not improvement?

Sure, it's an improvement, never said there were no improvements at all. But, I think the progress has been minimal. And what's this shit about "sinking the boat?" Who said the boat has sunk?

Bullshit. If Nash was being a cry baby about anyting, it was money. He wanted even more money from Carter, and she had the insight to turn him down. I'll try to dig up his recent whining on Twitter about it, but he tried to make a point that WWE wins because they would shell out the big bucks. I found that quite amusing, seeing as that was his exact sentiment upon leaving WWF for WCW back in the day. For all the talk of the TNA/WCW comparisons, I found this WWE/WCW comparison interesting.

I'm going off what Nash said. If you don't believe, fine. I'm not saying I really believe most of what he says either, but it's what he said.

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/kevin-nash-talks-barrett-not-selling-leaving-tna-more-122917

As for reports of unhapiness, hasn't that always been the case? Again, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I recall there have always been a few malcontents floating in and out of TNA.

I don't know if it's because TNA has more exposure with the internet folk since Hogan and Bischoff arrived, or what. But these articles are popping up everywhere, and quite often.

And I see this as over compensation. The only part of your OP that stood out to me as a true valid comparison was the repetition of "Worked Shoots" that we all know Russo loves to death. What's missing from TNA now is that concept flowing into every aspect of the show, right down to the announcers.

You don't see any similarities between Immortal and the nWo? Overuse of Gimmick matches? Mid-card guys disappearing, and not being featured? I'm not sure which show you're watching.

 

[DirtyJosé]

I don't recall predicting the closure of TNA. Did I do that? I'm just saying the whole scenario is playing out a lot like what happened in WCW. TNA operates on a much smaller scale than WCW, no doubt.

I'm simply asking people to discuss whether it gets better or worse from here on out. Again, I'm not laying out some timetable for TNA's demise. I'm just asking everyone to really think about this from every angle.

This is a thread comparing TNA and WCW with the intent to show TNA as a company and a product in dire straits. The message you've given throughout is you worry fans are being such blind marks that they are ignoring what you see as warning signs and that they are unable to see what you view as fatal flaws.

My response is that even though the show isn't setting all-time pro wrestling TV records, it's doing just fine for where it's at right now. It performs well for the network, and it pulls in about a third of the viewers Raw gets annually, which isn't very bad at all. The only real cause for the continued comparisons to WCW are Russo, Bischoff, and Hogan.

No, TNA isn't to that point..yet. Maybe this will turn out in the complete opposite manner of what everyone thinks I'm hoping for (complete demise, which couldn't be further from the truth). But I have to be somewhat skeptical of where everything goes from here because of the way it turned out for WCW, and I hope everyone else considers that as well.

Take a break, catch some air, and relax. You hope everyone considers it? The WCW card has been played to death since a year and a half ago, when the Hogan announcement was first made. How is TNA like WCW right now? They aren't bound by a quarter of the locker room holding the final say on their creative plans. They aren't making B-list celebrities their World Champion. They do decent ratings and make a profit, which is nothing like what endgame WCW was like. The wrong wrestlers getting pushed? Lame gimmicks? Storylines that have to be changed as they go forward? These are things dealt with by EVERY wrestling promotion, not just TNA. As I mentioned earlier, the best point you made was the focus on "all shoot, brutha", but then again it's not like WWE's never used real life tension as fodder for a program before.

Sure, it's an improvement, never said there were no improvements at all.

They were brought in to improve the promotion. And in my opinion, they haven't.

That's certainly the impression you are giving.

I'm going off what Nash said. If you don't believe, fine. I'm not saying I really believe most of what he says either, but it's what he said.

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/kevin-nash-talks-barrett-not-selling-leaving-tna-more-122917

Big Lazy talks a lot of dumb shit...

Big Lazy butt hurt that TNA didn't sing his praises.

Big Lazy showing once again his mind is only ever on money first.

How convenient that his talk about leaving TNA for creative differences came only after he made these comments.

I don't know if it's because TNA has more exposure with the internet folk since Hogan and Bischoff arrived, or what. But these articles are popping up everywhere, and quite often.

You're going to need to cite a little more than that, champ. And Kurt's comments on his ongoing angle don't count because if the man actually had a problem with it, he wouldn't be working it. Off the top of my head, I remember the reports of some chaos backstage almost two years ago when Dixie had moved to consolidate under Russo, just before Hogan was announced. This is also when Jeff Jarrett was driven off TV for his conduct and his way of doing things. Anyway, I've always taken it as given that a few vocal guys are going to gripe wherever and whenever they get the chance to. Just look at Matt Hardy.

You don't see any similarities between Immortal and the nWo? Overuse of Gimmick matches? Mid-card guys disappearing, and not being featured? I'm not sure which show you're watching.

Nexus.

Body Slam Challenge/Over the Rope Challenge/Dance Offs

Kaval.

Not trying to say WWE is just as bad or that TNA doesn't have problems, but these were the basis of your comparison to WCW and they are just weak. I know exactly what shows I'm watching; usually Raw. Sometimes, TNA iMPACT!. Haven't seen WCW Nitro in a good long time now.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

This is a thread comparing TNA and WCW with the intent to show TNA as a company and a product in dire straits.

Wrong again. I never said TNA is hurting financially. Actually, I've said several times that they are currently turning a profit. I'm saying it's hard to believe there's been any growth in the last year. I never said they're losing money, or making any less money than they were the year before last. I could be wrong, but that's what it seems like.

The message you've given throughout is you worry fans are being such blind marks that they are ignoring what you see as warning signs and that they are unable to see what you view as fatal flaws.

Potentially fatal, but yeah, you got the point.

My response is that even though the show isn't setting all-time pro wrestling TV records, it's doing just fine for where it's at right now. It performs well for the network, and it pulls in about a third of the viewers Raw gets annually, which isn't very bad at all.

How about this; neither one of us know jack shit about TNA's financial earnings. They don't have to share their figures, so we just don't know. In the OP, I didn't talk about the financial figures, others have taken it there. I'm simply pointing out TNA has show almost NO visible growth since Hogan and Bischoff came in over a year ago. The tv ratings are up, very slightly, but nothing they have done so far has taken TNA to that "next level" they kept yapping about.

The only real cause for the continued comparisons to WCW are Russo, Bischoff, and Hogan.

..and the way they book the show and use the talent.

Take a break, catch some air, and relax. You hope everyone considers it? The WCW card has been played to death since a year and a half ago, when the Hogan announcement was first made. How is TNA like WCW right now? They aren't bound by a quarter of the locker room holding the final say on their creative plans. They aren't making B-list celebrities their World Champion. They do decent ratings and make a profit, which is nothing like what endgame WCW was like. The wrong wrestlers getting pushed? Lame gimmicks? Storylines that have to be changed as they go forward? These are things dealt with by EVERY wrestling promotion, not just TNA. As I mentioned earlier, the best point you made was the focus on "all shoot, brutha", but then again it's not like WWE's never used real life tension as fodder for a program before.[/QUOTE]

Do I really need to point out, again, that I am NOT comparing TNA as it stands at this moment to WCW at the very end?

Nexus.

Nexus was a group of brand new wrestlers who needed a way into the business. Immortal isn't, and neither was the nWo.

Body Slam Challenge/Over the Rope Challenge/Dance Offs

Stupid shit, I'll give you that.

Kaval.

Wasn't anywhere near a mid-carder. He's a midget who can hit big spots. TNA hasn't exactly jumped to snatch him up either.

Not trying to say WWE is just as bad or that TNA doesn't have problems, but these were the basis of your comparison to WCW and they are just weak. I know exactly what shows I'm watching; usually Raw. Sometimes, TNA iMPACT!. Haven't seen WCW Nitro in a good long time now.

Sorry pal, but if you can't see the difference between Immortal, nWo and Nexus, you might need glasses and/or a hearing aid.

Oh, and for the smarks; I think Nexus is as stale as it gets. There's some WWE bashing to calm you boys down