Did Vince hold back Ken Shamrock from winning the WWF title?

[CM Steel]

Ken Shamrock is an icon in the UFC and all around MMA. But Shamrock took up a new line of work in the entertainment indudtry, pro wrestling. Ken Shamrock made his WWF debut in 1997 as the special ref for the Bret Hart vs Stone Cold Steve Austin submission match at Wrestlemania 13 in Chicago. And soon after that as a wrestler when defeating Vader months later at a PPV.

Through out Ken Shamrock's WWF carrer he's won various awards:

-WWF IC Champion
-WWF Tag Team Champion (with the Big Boss Man R.I.P.)
-The WWF 1998 King of the Ring

But Ken Shamrock never won the WWF world championship? He's been in the main event before competing for the world strap. Such as in late '97 were Shamrock faced then WWF champion Shawn Michaels for the title. But Triple H interfered causing Shamrock the title shot.

Ken Shamrock got over with the WWF crowd, but so people feel that that wasn't enough? Or did WWF/E chairman Vince McMahon hold Ken Shamrock back from winning the WWF championship because he didn't want one of Dana White's guys showing up the business? The sad thing about the career of Ken Shamrock was that when Shamrock left the company after his fued with Chris Jericho. He didn't get a fair or well deserved departure from the WWF.

It was done in a way like he was there today, but gone tomorrow.

 

[Swamp D.]

Ken Shamrock's unprofessionalism is what has held him back in everything that he has ever done. This is why UFC wants nothing to do with him! He was a hot head in the WWE and I couldn't imagine working with a guy like that. He got 1 title main event shot (that he didn't deserve) against HBK and HBK carried the whole match. Mid-card level at best with a Jobber Personality!

 

[tAP0813]

Ken Shamrock got over with the WWF crowd, but so people feel that that wasn't enough? Or did WWF/E chairman Vince McMahon hold Ken Shamrock back from winning the WWF championship because he didn't want one of Dana White's guys showing up the business? The sad thing about the career of Ken Shamrock was that when Shamrock left the company after his fued with Chris Jericho. He didn't get a fair or well deserved departure from the WWF.
.

Shamrock was in WWF 97-99. White acquired UFC 2001.
I would say it was more Shamrock's attitude or look?

 

[avi01]

I don`t know about wwe, but personally he never did it for me....his character was one dimensional bad tempered freak who never showed anything that would justify having him champion when you have Stone Cold, The Rock and the Undertaker in the picture. Besides he wasn`t that over with the crowd, that`s a big statement again when compared to the other top heads back then.

 

[Karilas]

So, just how hot-headed and unprofessional was Ken Shamrock? I've never really seen any of those reports, but then again I've only been following wrasslin' online for a few years and I've never specifically hunted him down.

Some citations would be really helpful here if you got 'em fellas!

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Shamrock was not a great ring worker... infact, the only time I ever saw Owen Hart live was in a tag with Shamrock where Ken botched a leap over the ropes on the hot tag and fell on his face... sad I remember that more than seeing Owen...

WWE tried a few MMA crossover guys in that era and they all bombed, but to be honest a lot of the cred for the whole programme was killed by Bart Gunn's lucky punch seeing Steve Williams knocked out in the Brawl For All... They spent weeks building him as a bad ass and they ended up with Butterbean in the final to try to save the situation...

Had Williams succeeded, he would have gotten a big push, and Shamrock would have been in the hunt with him for title feuds... but... it's one of those what if? things... I mean What If Steve Austin hadn't "slipped on Duggan" and tore his calf?"

 

[The Brain]

The real reason Shamrock didn't get the title is simply because not everyone can be world champion. I'm sure you didn't think he would be champion right away. By the time he had at least a little experience under his belt Austin was on top as champion. Shamrock was around during the time of Austin and Rock so when exactly should he have been champion? That's the probelm with threads like this. Everyone thinks a certain wrestler should have been champion but they never think about the guys that actually were champ at the time. By saying Ken Shamrock should have been champion in 1998 or 1999 you're saying Austin or Rock shouldn't have been.

 

[CM Steel]

The real reason Shamrock didn't get the title is simply because not everyone can be world champion. I'm sure you didn't think he would be champion right away. By the time he had at least a little experience under his belt Austin was on top as champion. Shamrock was around during the time of Austin and Rock so when exactly should he have been champion? That's the probelm with threads like this. Everyone thinks a certain wrestler should have been champion but they never think about the guys that actually were champ at the time. By saying Ken Shamrock should have been champion in 1998 or 1999 you're saying Austin or Rock shouldn't have been.

That's some bullshit! How are you going to say by me saying that Ken Shamrock should have been world champion in '98 or '99 and that I'm saying that both Austin and the Rock shouldn't have been a world champion? Stop putting words in my mouth Weasel!

And by you saying that B.S. Are you saying that if Ken Shamrock would have been a world champion. Are you saying that Mankind (Mick Foley) wouldn't have been world champion?

The world's most dangerous was there in the WWF during the pre-attitude era, the peak of the attitude era, and the post-attitude era. So are you truly saying that Ken Shamrock couldn't be a world champ during those era's?

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Not you again. I thought you went away.

That's some bullshit! How are you going to say by me saying that Ken Shamrock should have been world champion in '98 or '99 and that I'm saying that both Austin and the Rock shouldn't have been a world champion? Stop putting words in my mouth Weasel!

Reading comprehension, my friend. Use it.

And by you saying that B.S. Are you saying that if Ken Shamrock would have been a world champion. Are you saying that Mankind (Mick Foley) wouldn't have been world champion?

What do you even mean by this?

The world's most dangerous was there in the WWF during the pre-attitude era, the peak of the attitude era, and the post-attitude era. So are you truly saying that Ken Shamrock couldn't be a world champ during those era's?

By my recollection, Shamrock left WWF in 1999. Oh dear, there goes your post-attitude era statement.

Ken Shamrock didn't move the meter like Austin, Foley, or Rock did. Not everyone is made out to be a world champion no matter how over one may think he was and Shamrock is no exception.

 

[The Brain]

That's some bullshit! How are you going to say by me saying that Ken Shamrock should have been world champion in '98 or '99 and that I'm saying that both Austin and the Rock shouldn't have been a world champion? Stop putting words in my mouth Weasel!

Wow you took this a little personal didn’t you? No need to get so worked up. How about you take a second to think about this logically? If Shamrock were champion in 1998 or 1999 that means someone who was champion during that time would not have been. I’m not saying they never would have been, but Shamrock would have taken time of their (likely Austin's or Rock’s) title reigns thereby lessening their legacies. Tell me exactly when you would have liked Shamrock to be champion. Summer of 1998? That’s right when Austin was as hot as anyone in wrestling history had ever been. Not a good time for Shamrock to hold the title. How about the winter of that year? Well Rock was just getting really hot and becoming the main event star. Throughout 1999 Austin and Rock were battling on the top of the card cementing themselves as the legendary figures they have become. Tell me when Shamrock should have interrupted them.

And by you saying that B.S. Are you saying that if Ken Shamrock would have been a world champion. Are you saying that Mankind (Mick Foley) wouldn't have been world champion?

Possibly. You can't deny that Shamrock holding the title would have taken away from someone else's reign. It's common sense.

The world's most dangerous was there in the WWF during the pre-attitude era, the peak of the attitude era, and the post-attitude era. So are you truly saying that Ken Shamrock couldn't be a world champ during those era's?

Wrong. Shamrock was around for the attitude era and only the attitude era. When he was a green rookie Undertaker, Bret Hart, and Shawn Michaels were on top. By the time he had some WWF experience it was Austin and Rock with three very brief Foley reigns mixed in. Shamrock didn't belong above any of those guys. Unless you want to magically freeze time or put an extra few months on the calendar year Shamrock's reign would have had to come at someone's expense and none of those guys deserved to have had their reigns shortened or eliminated in favor of Shamrock.

 

[CM Steel]

Wow you took this a little personal didn’t you? No need to get so worked up. How about you take a second to think about this logically? If Shamrock were champion in 1998 or 1999 that means someone who was champion during that time would not have been. I’m not saying they never would have been, but Shamrock would have taken time of their (likely Austin's or Rock’s) title reigns thereby lessening their legacies. Tell me exactly when you would have liked Shamrock to be champion. Summer of 1998? That’s right when Austin was as hot as anyone in wrestling history had ever been. Not a good time for Shamrock to hold the title. How about the winter of that year? Well Rock was just getting really hot and becoming the main event star. Throughout 1999 Austin and Rock were battling on the top of the card cementing themselves as the legendary figures they have become. Tell me when Shamrock should have interrupted them.



Possibly. You can't deny that Shamrock holding the title would have taken away from someone else's reign. It's common sense.



Wrong. Shamrock was around for the attitude era and only the attitude era. When he was a green rookie Undertaker, Bret Hart, and Shawn Michaels were on top. By the time he had some WWF experience it was Austin and Rock with three very brief Foley reigns mixed in. Shamrock didn't belong above any of those guys. Unless you want to magically freeze time or put an extra few months on the calendar year Shamrock's reign would have had to come at someone's expense and none of those guys deserved to have had their reigns shortened or eliminated in favor of Shamrock.

I never said that Ken Shamrock deserved to be WWF champion during 1998. I was saying prior more on the lines by when Triple H first became a world champion. Ken Shamrock was still around by that time. Back when the WWF aquired more free agents from WCW in the Big Show and Chris Jericho. The Radicalz didn't come in til a year later, but by that point Shamrock got lost in the shuffle.

I think that if other wrestlers pushes weren't a priority to the WWF at the time, maybe Ken Shamrock would have had a better chance at becoming a WWF champion. But it didn't happen. So there it is and there it was the career of Ken Shamrock in the WWF/E.

It would have been nice to see Ken Shamrock stick around a little bit longer to fued with Kurt Angle. But hey that's life!

 

[The Brain]

I never said that Ken Shamrock deserved to be WWF champion during 1998. I was saying prior more on the lines by when Triple H first became a world champion. Ken Shamrock was still around by that time. Back when the WWF aquired more free agents from WCW in the Big Show and Chris Jericho. The Radicalz didn't come in til a year later, but by that point Shamrock got lost in the shuffle.

I think that if other wrestlers pushes weren't a priority to the WWF at the time, maybe Ken Shamrock would have had a better chance at becoming a WWF champion. But it didn't happen. So there it is and there it was the career of Ken Shamrock in the WWF/E.

It would have been nice to see Ken Shamrock stick around a little bit longer to fued with Kurt Angle. But hey that's life!

I see what you're saying, and it's reasonable to think Shamrock would have been a good champion. The timing just wasn't right for him. He was only in the WWF for a little over two years. When he first came in it looked like he could have been a future champ. It just so happened right at that time Austin became crazy popular and a year later The Rock did too. Shamrock left the WWF only about a month after Triple H won his first title. He just happened to be with the company during a time when two of the most popular guys ever were on top.

I would have liked a Shamrock/Angle feud too. I actually thought Shamrock might come back to make it happen at WM17. Turns out that was just wishful thinking as Shamrock hasn't appeared even once since leaving in September 1999.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

I was always a fan of Shamrock, but he was not ready to be champion and to carry the company during his WWE run. Had he remained with the company longer maybe he would have been, but at the time he was in the WWE, Stone Cold, The Rock and others were far better choices to have the belt. They were more over, better workers and more charismatic.

I found Shamrock to be really entertaining, he had a cool gimmick, a good moveset and a great look but he was not the right guy to be the World Champion. You still had guys like Bret Hart and HBK there when Ken debuted, and during his time with the company there were far better wrestlers who all deserved the belt more than he did. You always want to see your personal favourites have the title (hell, I would LOVE to have seen Raven as WWE champion), but looking back now you can see why he wasnt given a run.

Austin, Rock, Undertaker, Mankind, Big Show, Triple H, Kane, HBK, Bret. Those were the guys on top while Shamrock was part of the WWE. There is no way he should have been pushed ahead of any of them.

As I said earlier, if he had stayed in the WWE longer, rather than going back to UFC, he MAY have been pushed as guys like Jericho, Benoit etc were, but I think his achievements while in the WWE were still pretty good.

Also, I am sure I have read somewhere that he WAS going to get the WWE title, Bret agreed to drop it to him before he left the company, but the Montreal Screwjob ending up with HBK regaining the belt. Anyone know if that was true?

 

[Wolf Pac]

Well Vince runs the company and picks who is WWF Champion, so of course he did. The real question is why did he hold him back from winning it? And my guess is because he had no personality or charisma. I have to ask what you are smoking when you say he got over with the crowd cause that's the last thing he did. Now I actually would've liked to have seen Ken Shamrock as WWF Champion at one point myself but I think Vince made the right decision not putting it on him. This was a time when WWF was going to war with WCW, when WWF stepped up their game with the Attitude Era. Vince needed guys who could connect with the crowd ala Austin, Rock to help them bring in the big ratings, how would anybody be able to take a bland character like Ken Shamrock seriously over the nWo if Shamrock was the man carrying the company? And Shamrock was the last person who had "Attitude" in his character.

Like I said before though I would've liked to have seen Shamrock as champion though cause I did like him even though he wasn't all that but had he been champion, he would've been a transistional champion and the only time & place I think could've been a good time to make Shamrock champion was in 97. Maybe at IYH: Ground Zero or Bad Blood cause The Patriot was just as bland as Shamrock was, so wouldn't have mattered who faced Bret at those PPV's but if Ken had won it at Ground Zero or Bad Blood, I would make him lose it back to Bret about 2 weeks later for Shawn vs. Bret at Survivor Series. Or maybe Ken could've faced Bret at Survivor Series instead and Bret could've dropped it to him at the PPV or on Raw the next night cause Bret respected Shamrock and I think I remember reading that he offered to drop it to Shamrock too. That way we wouldn't have the Montreal Screwjob and then Ken could lose the title to Shawn at D-Generation X although the only good thing that came out from the Screwjob was Vince's heel turn, so I wouldn't want to change that but then again Vince could've just turned heel on Raw anyway whether the Screwjob happened or not. Shamrock was hot at the time in 97 unlike in 98 & 99, so that seemed like the right time to me.

 

[CelticCorey]

I personally would've loved to have seen Shamrock get at least one WWF Title reign. I always play as him during War Zone and I have several Shamrock figures on my desk as I am a huge mark. Shamrock was such a huge badass. If Vince McMahon could have a short run, why not Shamrock? I know not everybody could be champion but I think he deserved at least one run and he was very enjoyable in the ring for me.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

It came down to who he would have faced... Shamrock v Rock or Austin would have sucked as Ken didn't have the pro wrestling ability to hang with them... He was an MMA fighter who left pro wrestling as he didn't have the chops, then came back when he had conqured UFC... Like I said, had Steve Williams or Dan Severn made big splashes, different story but they didn't... Rock, Austin, Foley and Triple H did and they could all work with each other...

 

[THTRobtaylor]

I personally would've loved to have seen Shamrock get at least one WWF Title reign. I always play as him during War Zone and I have several Shamrock figures on my desk as I am a huge mark. Shamrock was such a huge badass. If Vince McMahon could have a short run, why not Shamrock? I know not everybody could be champion but I think he deserved at least one run and he was very enjoyable in the ring for me.

Cos then by that reckoning Davey Boy, Owen and Curt Hennig should also have had short runs and never got them... all 3 were far more deserving than Shamrock... Davey Boy was always far more deserving of a run than pretty much anyone but never quite got the call... Owen should have taken the Diesel loss rather than Backlund and Hennig could easily have won the belt on any of his returns if done right... Shamrock was a square peg in a round hole... hell even Big Bossman deserved a belt more...

 

[Toroc102]

I always thought Shamrock was pretty good in the ring for all those saying he didn't have the chops. Looking back on youtube I don't think I'm wrong.

In any case, mic work was Shamrock's problem(also I think he might not have been able to take the shit talk that goes on in wrestling and legitametely wanted to fight)but he could've had a Chris Benoit type reign if he'd stayed a little longer like others say. In any case, he just got in the wrong company at the wrong time. Has he gone to WcW he probably would've got a title(Tank Abbott anyone? As a matter of fact, Vince Russo, David Arquette, etc etc).

If he'd debuted in say 92 he probably could've gotten carried by a manager as a monster heel, and if he'd stuck around a little longer, he could've gotten passed the golden age of mic work that was the Attitude Era.

Hell could you imagine if he debuted today? As an MMA legend? I think he'd get pushed pretty well. Especially considering that WWE is giving the title to a lot of people that wouldn't ever have sniffed a world title back in the day. If there's one thing he had it was the look and the charisma(doesn't mean charisma translates to mic skills).

 

[CM Steel]

People now adays wanna talk about how great Kurt Angle has become as a wrestler from crossing over from something else. Well Ken Shamrock was "the original" Kurt Angle! It just so happen that this happened around the infamous attitude era.

People wanna talk how Kurt Angle is a master of the ankle-lock hold. But Ken Shamrock was the father of the hold remember? Their wouldn't be an ankle-lock hold in the WWE without Ken Shamrock, ever for Jack Swagger now in this era. And as far as Kurt Angle, he's just an MMA wanna be. He's trying to get where Ken Shamrock has already been before he became a pro wrestler.

So if Ken Shamrock ever wanted to put a Shawn Michaels and just pop out of retirement, he could in the WWE! And maybe he could win a world championship (more than likely on Smackdown).

 

[J.J.]

Mankind, The Rock, Steve Austin - would you have held them back in favor of a Ken Shamrock title run? I think not. I knew his chances were ruined after his stint with The Rock - Vince McMahon and company in that Corporate stable. Trapped in mid card. Kinda glad these MMA crossover guys are out the picture. Ie. Shamrock, Bobby Lashley and Dan Severn. While they were gifted athletes they possessed dull personalities.

 

[Chris1-16]

No Shamrock wasn't held back, he just didn't stay long enough to win it. Winning the IC Title was a good enough accomplishment, since he won it just before it become devalued throughout '99.

 

[Psyclone]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the real reason why they didnt trust shamrock as a world champion.... It's not due to his ring work or any other reason... he was decent enough in the ring, and I don't remember hearing about problems backstage with him.... My recollection however was that he was horrifiterrible on the mic... He couldn't talk, and compared to the people of "his era" (rock/HHH/Mankind/Stone Cold) he'd be destroyed each and every day on the mic.... I mean he may have been able to get the championship had he had a manager (like Kane) who was able to talk for him, but that kind of holds back the "worlds most dangerous man"....

Also before anyone states that when Big show arrived he couldn't really talk either, well sure but he got the tile cause he's a freaking giant... Shamrock is average (at least for WWE standards...) and even then, they took the belt off him as quick as they could...

 

[dd23beatlesfan1]

Also, I am sure I have read somewhere that he WAS going to get the WWE title, Bret agreed to drop it to him before he left the company, but the Montreal Screwjob ending up with HBK regaining the belt. Anyone know if that was true?

I've read that as well. According to Dave Meltzer's account of the year that lead to the Montreal Screwjob, one of the scenarios Bret thought up was to lose the title to someone else. Bret was willing to drop the title to anyone in the company except for Shawn Michaels. He even said he'd be happy to drop it to the Brooklyn Brawler on his way out. He would've dropped it to Stone Cold as well although he didn't want to do it, because he knew the company was buliding for Austin to win at WM (if Bret had stayed in the company it was reported that the main event at Wrestlemania XIV would've been a rematch of Bret and Austin for the title with Bret putting him over instead of HBK), and he didn't want to ruin the plan. So if I remember right, Bret's two biggest options were the Undertaker and Ken Shamrock. Bret was a big of fan of Ken's and felt he deserved a run because he was a good wrestler (my guess is they were friends as well).

So it is true that Bret offered to lose to Ken. I don't think it was ever part of the official plan at any moment. It was just a suggestion brought up by Bret.


As for the topic at hand, I was a huge Shamrock mark back then. And I really don't get where people say he was a bad wrestler and sucked. I always thought he was very good and always put on good technical-styled matches. He was probably pretty stiff, but what do you expect from an MMA champion. Of course he's going to have to take some time to adjust from real fighting to choreographed fighting.

But as others have pointed out, he just shouldn't have been world champion from the time he was there. The only time that I could've seen him being champion is perhaps having an extremely short run in late 1997/early 1998. Perhaps Shamrock could've won the title when him and HBK had their match (was it the DX ppv in December of 97?), only for HBK to gain it back a few weeks later in time for the HBK/Stone Cold feud to begin. That was really the only plausible time, as Bret was gone, Taker was in a feud with Kane, Stone Cold wasn't going to main event until Wrestlemania, and the Rock was still in the Nation fighting for the I-C title. He could've had a short feud with HBK over the title until it was time to build to Wrestlemania.

Other than that though if Ken was ever gonna be World Champion it would've had to been after 2002 most likely on Smackdown. As has been pointed out, he could've and most likely would've gotten pushed along with Angle, Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, Mysterio, and Lesnar. If Ken had stuck around long enough he would've gotten even better (being more polished up, he already had a good moveset and style IMO) and probably would've been in some really good matches with the previously mentioned guys. And probably been champion at some point. But he left and never came back. I wasn't surprised that he left when he did, because I had heard he was ready to get back to UFC. But I always thought he'd come back eventually, and sadly he never did. I think Ken Shamrock had tons of potential, was already really good for the short time he was there, and he could've gotten so much better had he stuck around and honed his craft.

 

[dd23beatlesfan1]

I've read that as well. According to Dave Meltzer's account of the year that lead to the Montreal Screwjob, one of the scenarios Bret thought up was to lose the title to someone else. Bret was willing to drop the title to anyone in the company except for Shawn Michaels.

Also to clarify that statement, he only refused to lose to Shawn in Montreal. He originally offered to lose to him the following night on Raw or the following week, or at the next ppv event (contrary to popular belief his WWF contract did not end on the night of the Survivor Series ppv. It was good for another month, hence why he didn't appear on WCW television until the Starrcade event). Before eventually coming up with the forfeiting the title idea the following night.

 

[Mustang Sally]

From an interview that was printed shortly after he left WWE, I got the impression his heart was never in pro wrestling because he saw himself as a "legitimate" fighter who just couldn't adjust to the phoniness of following a script in a fight. If so, this is a valid complaint, no? Plus, he probably rankled at purposely losing to some performers whom he knew he would destroy in a real martial arts match.

Plainly, then, he worked for WWE only for the money, which might very well have exceeded what he would get from legitimate fighting. He tried it for a while and then went back to where he figured he belonged. If this was obvious to fans, it certainly didn't escape the attention of Vince McMahon, who probably wasn't willing to put a major title on a guy whose ambitions lie in another direction.

Still, I wonder what Ken thinks now. His UFC career is over and no one in pro wrestling seems interested in him anymore. I hope it was all worth it.