Did the nWo truly start the Attitude era?

[relentless1]

So Vince and co give the slightest of nods to the nWo; mostly praising it as being the ONE thing that WCW did sort of right until they fucked it up....A backhanded compliment if I ever heard one.

Lets take it back to the end of 1994 though... Diesel had just become the WWF Champion and for almost a year he held the belt...and it wasn't a very good year for the WWF with Kevin Nash as champion, one of their lowest drawing years in fact.

Many believe that Nash just wasn't the right guy to hold the belt which is sort of true but in my opinion Vince tried to turn Nash into a Hogan type babyface which sucked...had he let him be a tweener he would have been a much better champ; much like Austin was 4 years later...

The point I'm trying to make here is that Vince wouldn't have taken the chance on a Tweener character like Austin had WCW not been trouncing him in the ratings, we saw it with Nash and we've seen it again with guys like Cena and even Reigns today.

More than that the nWo showed Vince just how over heels can really be as we all know Vince has always favoured the face champions. On top of that he aped the heel boss gimmick from Bischoff who did it over a year earlier than Vince did...And Eric did it just as well if not better IMO.

End of rant, I just wanted to start a discussion on this to see if anybody agrees with me; was the nWo the main catalyst for the Attitude Era and Vinces domination? Or would he have come up with the edgy ideas he put forth regardless??

 

[Vanilla Midget]

The name Attitude Era itself is a piece of revisionist history. The victors write the history books. Personally, I've always preferred Monday Night War when referring to the era as it's really more of an apt description.

While nWo were forming in June 1996, WWF was building towards King of the Ring 1996 where Austin gave his famous 3:16 speech. Austin gave the 3:16 speech on June 23, 1996, while Hogan turned heel and formed the nWo at Bash on the Beach on July 3, 1996.

Wrestling itself was changing. The early 90s were a declining period for both WCW and WWF alike. The documentaries and history coverage like to sell the Attitude Era as a sudden change heralded by Austin's arrival, but it was far more of a gradual change that owes itself to a lot of factors. You only have to look at other changes in culture to see this. Action movies were featuring darker characters, grunge music was on the rise, the Cold War was over and people were looking for heroes that erred on the bad boy side.

If nWo was the specific reason Vince pushed Austin, why didn't Austin win the title until 1998? If you look at the ratings throughout the War, WWF domination of the ratings doesn't occur until later in 1998, after Austin lost the title. The Mankind title win is often sited as the turning point, though if you follow the numbers both promotions climb in numbers through 1998, with WCW plateauing then petering out into 1999.

It's an oversimplification to say Vince pushed Austin because of nWo. It's more true to say that nWo and Austin were pushed due to changes in pop culture and changes in the wrestling business altogether. Vince couldn't have not pushed Austin. Stone Cold was so incredibly over despite being a heel, it was like Daniel Bryan today, only more so.

The rise of Austin and the nWo in the Monday War (Attitude Era) occur too close to each other in order for one to lend their success to the other. WWF would have had to push edgier more complex characters in order to succeed in the ratings battle regardless of the presence of Austin or nWo.

 

[Wrestlingaholic]

I firmly believe that Vince was headed in that direction anyway. There were certainly signs that WWE was at least trialing an edgier product long before the nWo - the Bret Hart v Diesel Survivor Series match including the table spot; the use of Sunny as a sex object; the characters of Goldust in particular but also Mankind, Vader (though they ended up completely misusing him, the way he debuted and was written off tv for surgery by brutalising Gorilla Monsoon was strong); the Hollywood Backlot brawl at Wrestlemania XII; the no-holds-barred match between Shawn Michaels and Diesel at In Your House VII; there were certainly enough to suggest that Vince was moving away from the gimmicky cartoon world of 1993-95. Perhaps it was this that actually encouraged Bischoff to pull the trigger on the nWo: "WWE is proving there is a market for edgier wrestling, let's steal their big stars and get even edgier"

The nWo simply sped up the process as Vince needed to react.

 

[relentless1]

The name Attitude Era itself is a piece of revisionist history. The victors write the history books. Personally, I've always preferred Monday Night War when referring to the era as it's really more of an apt description.

While nWo were forming in June 1996, WWF was building towards King of the Ring 1996 where Austin gave his famous 3:16 speech. Austin gave the 3:16 speech on June 23, 1996, while Hogan turned heel and formed the nWo at Bash on the Beach on July 3, 1996.

Wrestling itself was changing. The early 90s were a declining period for both WCW and WWF alike. The documentaries and history coverage like to sell the Attitude Era as a sudden change heralded by Austin's arrival, but it was far more of a gradual change that owes itself to a lot of factors. You only have to look at other changes in culture to see this. Action movies were featuring darker characters, grunge music was on the rise, the Cold War was over and people were looking for heroes that erred on the bad boy side.

If nWo was the specific reason Vince pushed Austin, why didn't Austin win the title until 1998? If you look at the ratings throughout the War, WWF domination of the ratings doesn't occur until later in 1998, after Austin lost the title. The Mankind title win is often sited as the turning point, though if you follow the numbers both promotions climb in numbers through 1998, with WCW plateauing then petering out into 1999.

It's an oversimplification to say Vince pushed Austin because of nWo. It's more true to say that nWo and Austin were pushed due to changes in pop culture and changes in the wrestling business altogether. Vince couldn't have not pushed Austin. Stone Cold was so incredibly over despite being a heel, it was like Daniel Bryan today, only more so.

The rise of Austin and the nWo in the Monday War (Attitude Era) occur too close to each other in order for one to lend their success to the other. WWF would have had to push edgier more complex characters in order to succeed in the ratings battle regardless of the presence of Austin or nWo.

you have to remember that Austins 3:16 speech was off the cuff, they didn't know he'd say what he said. Austin winning the belt was at the tail end of a year and a half ass whooping by WCW and its the main reason why WWF overtook WCW in the ratings again; DX, Rock, Austin, Mr MchMahon were a direct answer to the edgy material that Nitro was putting on, specifically the nWo...hell Vince even tried to bring in his own light heavyweight division to rival the ultra successful cruiserweight division in WCW.

 

[TellMeWhy]

I firmly believe that Vince was headed in that direction anyway. There were certainly signs that WWE was at least trialing an edgier product long before the nWo - the Bret Hart v Diesel Survivor Series match including the table spot; the use of Sunny as a sex object; the characters of Goldust in particular but also Mankind, Vader (though they ended up completely misusing him, the way he debuted and was written off tv for surgery by brutalising Gorilla Monsoon was strong); the Hollywood Backlot brawl at Wrestlemania XII; the no-holds-barred match between Shawn Michaels and Diesel at In Your House VII; there were certainly enough to suggest that Vince was moving away from the gimmicky cartoon world of 1993-95. Perhaps it was this that actually encouraged Bischoff to pull the trigger on the nWo: "WWE is proving there is a market for edgier wrestling, let's steal their big stars and get even edgier"

The nWo simply sped up the process as Vince needed to react.

The only reason Vince was heading in that direction is because his product was piss poor and he and his writers like Heyman was getting all the inspiration to edge it up from taking some of that edge from Paul Heyman in ECW and adding it to their own product. So it was ECW's Revolution and nWo combined that gave birth to the WWF Attitude Era.

 

[Dmbfantomas]

I always felt that The Attitude Era began with the creation of one character. One idea that was so novel that it would subconsciously influence the business for the rest of time. Was it Austin? Nope. Was it DX? Not a chance. NWO? Try NW-No!

It's Goldust. That character was so far ahead of its time, while also bringing creativity in the business way forward.

 

[justinept]

It's tough to say really. The NWO was certainly the first of its kind in American pro wrestling, a bad-ass heel faction so cool that the fans cheered for them over the faces. If you really want to dive deeper into the subject, the popularity of the group was an organic response from an age group that grew up on Hogan in the 80s and early 90s, but who weren't ready to give up pro wrestling despite no longer being the target demographic. Ironically, Hogan became popular by telling kids to follow the rules... and then he maintained that level of popularity by telling those same kids to screw the rules when they were teenagers.

You're not entirely wrong to suggest that the NWO tested the waters for what became The Attitude Era. They proved it could be successful, and I think a large part of Steve Austin's success came from two things: 1) The WWE fans were dying for something similarly edgy and 2) Vince McMahon let Austin run with his character because he knew it would work from seeing how successful the NWO was. So in that regard, yes - the NWO played a role in the launch of the era.

But as some have pointed out - Austin's KOTR speech wasn't pre-planned, and he was going to deliver it regardless of the NWO's existence. Even without the NWO, the fans of the WWE likely would have had the same rebellious response of cheering for the heel based on being teenagers who wanted a reason to keep watching the product. Whether or not McMahon would have allowed his product to take that direction without the success of the NWO - or the fact that WCW was kicking his ass - is debatable, though.

As for Goldust being the launch of the era... I think that's a reach. It's true that Goldust was edgy, especially for that period of time. But it's not as if Goldust was the first effeminate character whose sexuality came into question. That honor belonged to Gorgeous George. For me, the launch of the era was always centered around Austin and the reaction the other wrestlers had to him - whether that was VKM turning heel, Hart turning heel or Pillman pulling a gun on him and shooting it.

 

[boozinjedi]

Did the nWo truly start the Attitude Era?...No
Did serve as a wake up call to Vince to change things up?....Yes

 

[rmp0012002]

I consider the Atitude Era just a WWE phrase as WCW didn't have a name for what they were promoting at the time but it was all part of the Monday Night Wars. The NWO was one of the biggest things to hit wrestling in years and at the time the WWF was going through the motions. Vince needed to up his game and that the Outsiders and Hogan left him for WCW I'm sure ate at him. Everything on both sides came together just right.

 

[New Hot Fed]

You have to remember that Vince's vision of wrestling in 1996 was the long babyface Shawn Michaels run. Which appealed to few guys at the time. It was like the Cena run but even more effeminate.

I mean sure Stone Cold won KOTR but if WCW doesn't go edgy and kick Vince's ass, KOTR doesn't even matter. Cause the nWo wasn't even a thing then. Even after KOTR, Austin wasn't that pushed.

He was pushed really after Bret Hart turned heel, Russo was the writer and they wanted a character who would go after the AE like Bret. They also wanted a big hero of their own to turn heel and do a shoot promo just like Hogan had done. In a way everything came together after Austin faced Bret at Mania. And then they put a rocket on Austin's back and boom the phenom was happening.

Vince's boy really was Shawn and when he beat Bret at Mania in 96, it was like a passing of the torch, Vince believed that HBK was going to be his future star. But the nWo happened, it changed wrestling and it kicked the WWF's ass and it took a while for Vince to change gear. I'll always remember the fans at MSG cheering for Sid in the title match against Shawn, even if Sid was the heel. It was like slap in face cause Sid did various haineous things like hitting HBK's manager with a camera dead cold. Fans still cheered. They were tired of the damn pretty boy, it was a new era.

Without the nWo, you don't have:
-Bret Hart heel turn
-Stone Cold phenom
-DX

 

[Wald]

Kevin Nash laid a lot of groundwork as Diesel before leaving but I honestly think the Bret Hart v Steve Austin programme is what truly modernised the WWF product and kicked off the Attitude Era in the company. It just added that dimension of realism as you could understand Austin's frustrations at thinking he was the best in the world and getting overlooked and you could see Bret Hart's point in fighting against what the fans were becoming.

I don't think the Austin 3:16 speech kicked it off and I think WWF try to pretend that they lit a rocket under Steve after he cut it as a piece of revisionism to make themselves look better. After the 3:16 speech what did they do with Austin? I know at Summerslam he worked a dark match against Yokozuna and he ran that angle with Pillman but it wasn't until the Hitman specifically asked to work with Austin at Survivor Series that things started moving for him.

If there's one moment where I'd point to WWF having been changed and not being in the process of changing though I'd say it was Bret's promo in January of 97 where he calls out Vince as the boss and quits. Only part of it here:

[YOUTUBE]9sPcdgPx1nE[/YOUTUBE]

Austin's response was gold too

[YOUTUBE]C8OZT_5so10[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Rhodes2TheFuture3313]

WCW went south the minute on Nitro after Starrcade 1998 when the infamous fingerpoke of doom took place. I wanted to see Wolfpac continue to feud w/nWo B&W w/Goldberg caught in the middle. They messed that up. WCW also didn't have the foresight to book Hall vs. Nash vs Hogan for the WCW WORLD TITLE. That would have sold. All 3 guys could have made that work. Also the poor booking of Bret Hart until later in 1999. WCW had the roster, but the booking and ineffective management is why they don't exist today.

 

[LBGetBack]

WCW and WWF were both influenced to make their product edgier, by what was going on with ECW.

So NWO, Austin, edgier products......that all had it's roots in what ECW had already been doing for a few years.

 

[nwocongo]

I always felt that The Attitude Era began with the creation of one character. One idea that was so novel that it would subconsciously influence the business for the rest of time. Was it Austin? Nope. Was it DX? Not a chance. NWO? Try NW-No!

It's Goldust. That character was so far ahead of its time, while also bringing creativity in the business way forward.

You may be onto something, or maybe I'm just on something. That character was pretty over the top for the time and his debut coincided with Hall & Nash jumping ship and the huge boom that was on the horizon for the industry. Even Hall said the character made him uncomfortable having to explain Goldust's borderline homosexual antics to his kids or something along those lines and that is why his angle with Goldust was dropped for the Piper feud. Obviously he was on the way out at that point so he didn't have to put up with anything, but if the flamboyance of Goldust got under his skin after all the other garbage he had seen in the business, that's saying something.

Lots of good points made in this thread but as LB said, ECW definitely put a lot of pressure on the bigger promotions to put out an edgier product.

 

[thebarber]

WWE had to change, they were getting murdered, Austin caught on accidentally, he wasn't even supposed to win KOTR in 1996, Helmsley was.

 

[HatchetMan84]

WWE had to change, they were getting murdered, Austin caught on accidentally, he wasn't even supposed to win KOTR in 1996, Helmsley was.

This is a great post and something that a lot of fans actually forget. HHH was supposed to win the KOTR that year, but as punishment from the MSG incident, he was relegated to wrestling a "slop match" or "barnyard match" or whatever they called it against Mark Canterbury aka Henry O. Godwinn