Championship Match: (3) Shawn Michaels vs. (11) Brock Lesnar

[nightmare]

We may as well just throw out the gimmick rounds and damage stats next year if they somehow magically dont matter all of the sudden. I get that people use varying criteria to vote for the most part throughout the tournament, but the later rounds have these in place to mix things up a bit for a reason. This HBK plucky underdog shit is fucking stupid. Cena took damage before facing Brock & he got his ass kicked. Cena is king shit of comeback wins and he couldnt get it done, so now Captain Bedazzled Chaps is supposed to be our hero savior? Fucking give me a break.

Honestly Brock has been a dominant force in two different runs, whereas Shawn has never been seen as dominant. The big monsters he has beat like Vader and Sid are being overhyped as a big deal when they were far from at their peak of destruction. Lesnar has run through big names, in big matches & done it with more than just suplexes. He is better than Shawn on the mat & sure as hell is stronger. HBK would get in his shots, but no way does he take out a fresh Lesnar with an elbow drop or a bakers dozen of superkicks.

Quit acting like Shawn is a Hulkamania level superhero set to rid the world of evil. I like Shawn, but he is not as great as some are portraying him here.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

If THAT"s how you're picturing this... then you definitely do not see what he's saying... or I'm pretty sure even read most of the posts here.

But you're also following the rules of this thing as well as the guy who made them up... which is to say only when it's convenient for you to do so, so you have that going for you.

There isn't some epic, Wrestlemania style build to this "one time only" main event. This is the third match in a single night. Brock isn't beating up Jose Lothario... beating up Triple H... beating up everyone HBK has ever loved. He's just beating up Steve Austin and John Cena... the guys he destroyed earlier in the night to get to this final match.

HBK can be the plucky underdog that overcomes the odds... but PRIME HBK, is a guy who SUCKED at the sympathetic face role. (remember when you told me that guys had to be in their prime for this?) They tried it with him. It didn't work, and it's one of the reasons their business was so bad when he was champ.

It's already been mentioned, but Michaels was not good at beating monsters in his prime. He had a tough time with Vader, and he lost his title to Sid (again remember previously, you've argued that the match result was all that mattered, and that non-TV matches don't count). Thing with those two though? Is that neither was at the level that Lesnar is. You can make a case for WCW Vader, but by the time Michaels needed 3 tries to beat him at Summerslam, he was just a shadow of his old WCW self. If HBK didn't fare well against lesser monsters than Lesnar, why would he beat a tougher one like Brock Lesnar?

I know none of this matters anymore, since it's been decided and Klunderblunker's called for the bell as soon as HBK got a sloppy kimura on Brock (because they agreed it would be a good spot to start the second half of the match), but still. Your final post here pretty much just illustrates how convenient people have played with the rules of the tournament here. Preach them to death when they benefit the guy they like, and throw them out the window with whatever justification they can conjure up when they don't benefit their guy.

Here's the deal this is the last match of a tournament, what happened when Randy and MDM faced of at the Mania tourney? This is heel Vs face and is the last match of the show. So tell me how do you close the show?

And dear boy, do you know how debates work, are you gonna keep whining about waahh wahh changed tactics waahh wahhh! Jeez dude get a grip and instead of moaning you should have made a good case in all this time.

Trouble is you spent more time bitching than about standing up for your guys and then when a wrestler you didn't favor won, you just kept the bitching going. Micheals beat Vader at the end of the day and beat Sid on the big stage. The post-Mania 12 Shawn did play the underdog babyface just fine and as sympathetic as any one.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

Here's the deal this is the last match of a tournament, what happened when Randy and MDM faced of at the Mania tourney? This is heel Vs face and is the last match of the show. So tell me how do you close the show?

And dear boy, do you know how debates work, are you gonna keep whining about waahh wahh changed tactics waahh wahhh! Jeez dude get a grip and instead of moaning you should have made a good case in all this time.

Trouble is you spent more time bitching than about standing up for your guys and then when a wrestler you didn't favor won, you just kept the bitching going. Micheals beat Vader at the end of the day and beat Sid on the big stage. The post-Mania 12 Shawn did play the underdog babyface just fine and as sympathetic as any one.

I have never understood this logic. Didn't a heel steal a win this past WrestleMania? At WrestleMania 17, the match everyone seems to love, not only did a heel win but the beloved face made a big heel turn. A lot of the early Starcades had heel wins. Some of the King of the Rings had heel wins. I think this is a poor argument.

Sid beat him at Survivor series, Micheals got him at the Royale Rumble. Both seem big to me.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Here's the deal this is the last match of a tournament, what happened when Randy and MDM faced of at the Mania tourney? This is heel Vs face and is the last match of the show. So tell me how do you close the show?

And dear boy, do you know how debates work, are you gonna keep whining about waahh wahh changed tactics waahh wahhh! Jeez dude get a grip and instead of moaning you should have made a good case in all this time.

Trouble is you spent more time bitching than about standing up for your guys and then when a wrestler you didn't favor won, you just kept the bitching going. Micheals beat Vader at the end of the day and beat Sid on the big stage. The post-Mania 12 Shawn did play the underdog babyface just fine and as sympathetic as any one.

I don't even know where to go with this post. It's pretty obvious that you haven't even read the thread if this is what you actually think.

The face ALWAYS has to win in the end? No, they don't. Servant of Twilight gave you a few examples already of how that's not always the case. And that's even assuming that HBK is the face here. PRIME HBK was a horrible face. His character worked best as a cocky heel who you wanted to see get beat. Brock Lesnar, who can be argued is PRIME right now, has evolved into a tweener that fans want to see beat the crap out of everyone. I argue going into this final match... Lesnar would be the one with the fan support, so going by your WWE indoctrined logic... he should be the winner.

Also, I know you're an HBK mark, but try being a little honest about the guy. He was not a good sympathetic, underdog babyface. When he was a face champ, business was horrible, and it got worse as his reign continued. Business started picking up after they ditched that aspect of his character and let him be the cocky little shit that he did best. Fans didn't buy the plucky underdog character with him. He did not do it well in the 90's. It's something he learned to do better as he got older, but that's not PRIME HBK, and like I mentioned earlier, if you want to use the older HBK, then you have to acknowledge that he's the guy that lost his career to someone that Lesnar beat easily on the 'grandest stage of all'.

Finally as far as this thread goes? Seriously. Read it. I've hardly posted in it, so if you want to hang Lesnar losing on me... then you're basically saying that I know what I'm talking about so well that I could have easily influenced this to a different result if I'd just tried. Thanks for the compliment I guess.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

I don't even know where to go with this post. It's pretty obvious that you haven't even read the thread if this is what you actually think.

The face ALWAYS has to win in the end? No, they don't. Servant of Twilight gave you a few examples already of how that's not always the case. And that's even assuming that HBK is the face here. PRIME HBK was a horrible face. His character worked best as a cocky heel who you wanted to see get beat. Brock Lesnar, who can be argued is PRIME right now, has evolved into a tweener that fans want to see beat the crap out of everyone. I argue going into this final match... Lesnar would be the one with the fan support, so going by your WWE indoctrined logic... he should be the winner.

Also, I know you're an HBK mark, but try being a little honest about the guy. He was not a good sympathetic, underdog babyface. When he was a face champ, business was horrible, and it got worse as his reign continued. Business started picking up after they ditched that aspect of his character and let him be the cocky little shit that he did best. Fans didn't buy the plucky underdog character with him. He did not do it well in the 90's. It's something he learned to do better as he got older, but that's not PRIME HBK, and like I mentioned earlier, if you want to use the older HBK, then you have to acknowledge that he's the guy that lost his career to someone that Lesnar beat easily on the 'grandest stage of all'.

Oh that old chestnut again, hardy har har! Yep nWo was a house on fire like no other, and killed the WWF in those weeks. But you know who else was an unfortunate flag bearer Brock in his 2002-03 run. The thing is though, this Brock is built up to lose to a face in the end. Thats how he has been booked, and if Reigns didnt have asinine booking ruin his chance, Reigns was primed to win.

Too bad all the guys you support lose, go on blame the forums' "stupidity" for that.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Oh that old chestnut again, hardy har har! Yep nWo was a house on fire like no other, and killed the WWF in those weeks. But you know who else was an unfortunate flag bearer Brock in his 2002-03 run. The thing is though, this Brock is built up to lose to a face in the end. Thats how he has been booked, and if Reigns didnt have asinine booking ruin his chance, Reigns was primed to win.

Too bad all the guys you support lose, go on blame the forums' "stupidity" for that.

Business while HBK was the underdog, sympathetic babyface was dropping off BEFORE the NWO angle started. It isn't a coincidence that things started improving once they got HBK out of that role.

It's not a knock on your hero, as much as you want to think it is. He just wasn't believable as that type of character. His best work always came when he was more of an extension of his natural, cocky self.

You say that Brock is built to lose to a face in the end? Great... except when has that been happening? When he lost to the sneaky heel in his last match? When he lost to the career heel that occasionally plays a face role? When he almost killed the babyface before losing in a fluky fashion? Brock really isn't being booked like you claim he is... not that it matters in this case. And like I said... why is HBK the face? PRIME HBK was a great heel, and a very unbelievable face. PRIME Lesner... has won the fans over without changing his approach like very few in history have ever been able to do. Put the cocky Heartbreak Kid in the ring with the tweener Brock Lesnar... and the fans are not going home happy if you get what you want. Fans would be cheering for Lesnar to suplex Michaels into a pancake, and would be disappointed as hell if it didn't happen. According to your logic... that would be a bad thing (although I'm sure your tune would change again for that).

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Business while HBK was the underdog, sympathetic babyface was dropping off BEFORE the NWO angle started. It isn't a coincidence that things started improving once they got HBK out of that role.

It's not a knock on your hero, as much as you want to think it is. He just wasn't believable as that type of character. His best work always came when he was more of an extension of his natural, cocky self.

You say that Brock is built to lose to a face in the end? Great... except when has that been happening? When he lost to the sneaky heel in his last match? When he lost to the career heel that occasionally plays a face role? When he almost killed the babyface before losing in a fluky fashion? Brock really isn't being booked like you claim he is... not that it matters in this case. And like I said... why is HBK the face? PRIME HBK was a great heel, and a very unbelievable face. PRIME Lesner... has won the fans over without changing his approach like very few in history have ever been able to do. Put the cocky Heartbreak Kid in the ring with the tweener Brock Lesnar... and the fans are not going home happy if you get what you want. Fans would be cheering for Lesnar to suplex Michaels into a pancake, and would be disappointed as hell if it didn't happen. According to your logic... that would be a bad thing (although I'm sure your tune would change again for that).

Brock has been booked like a heel, and after Rollins snuck in that win, Lesnar has been overwhelmingly been supported. Brock is the big monster fodder for the next big babyface BUT that might change when he returns. For now though, he still a heel.

Prime HBK was face, even in DX they were faces you could argue when going up against the Hart Foundation when Bret had the "I hate the AE" gimmick going. He is a great heel, but in prime he is face.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Brock has been booked like a heel, and after Rollins snuck in that win, Lesnar has been overwhelmingly been supported. Brock is the big monster fodder for the next big babyface BUT that might change when he returns. For now though, he still a heel.

Prime HBK was face, even in DX they were faces you could argue when going up against the Hart Foundation when Bret had the "I hate the AE" gimmick going. He is a great heel, but in prime he is face.

Brock's a tweener. He's a guy who hasn't changed his style from being a full blown heel, but the fans still appreciated what he did so much that he got over and was cheered anyways. Listen to the reactions he got in his run up to WM. Those were not heel reactions.

HBK was a face in his prime? He was a full blown face for about a year and a half... and not a very popular one. Fans didn't buy the act with him. You might not care to admit it, but it's true. Business under HBK was dying even before the NWO took off. Once he lost his smile and wanted to live his life how he wanted, he was at best a tweener. Booked more as a face, but more heelish in his words and actions. Once DX started? He was a heel. You can't even argue that like you claim. Everything about the origininal DX was heelish. Even though they were originally fighting a heel group like the Hart Foundation... who's gimmick btw wasn't that they hated the Attitude Era. They hated the United States.

HBK in the 90's (his prime) was a heel for the majority of it... and when he was a face, he was an unconvincing one. He's a guy that worked best back then as a heel. For fucks sake, he'd even agree with that.

The bottom line though, is you simply wouldn't book this match for HBK to win on the basis that the underdog winning would send the fans home happy. If that is the finish you wanted, out of everyone involved in the final 8, you'd probably go with Cena finally beating Brock convincingly for your win (with their history, he is absolutely the underdog). HBK wouldn't send the fans home happy. They'd be thinking 'this guy destroys Austin and Cena and then loses to him?" Or if you have to have HBK go over Brock for the win, don't give Brock such a tough run and have him be so freaking dominant in it.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Brock's a tweener. He's a guy who hasn't changed his style from being a full blown heel, but the fans still appreciated what he did so much that he got over and was cheered anyways. Listen to the reactions he got in his run up to WM. Those were not heel reactions.

HBK was a face in his prime? He was a full blown face for about a year and a half... and not a very popular one. Fans didn't buy the act with him. You might not care to admit it, but it's true. Business under HBK was dying even before the NWO took off. Once he lost his smile and wanted to live his life how he wanted, he was at best a tweener. Booked more as a face, but more heelish in his words and actions. Once DX started? He was a heel. You can't even argue that like you claim. Everything about the origininal DX was heelish. Even though they were originally fighting a heel group like the Hart Foundation... who's gimmick btw wasn't that they hated the Attitude Era. They hated the United States.

HBK in the 90's (his prime) was a heel for the majority of it... and when he was a face, he was an unconvincing one. He's a guy that worked best back then as a heel. For fucks sake, he'd even agree with that.

The bottom line though, is you simply wouldn't book this match for HBK to win on the basis that the underdog winning would send the fans home happy. If that is the finish you wanted, out of everyone involved in the final 8, you'd probably go with Cena finally beating Brock convincingly for your win (with their history, he is absolutely the underdog). HBK wouldn't send the fans home happy. They'd be thinking 'this guy destroys Austin and Cena and then loses to him?" Or if you have to have HBK go over Brock for the win, don't give Brock such a tough run and have him be so freaking dominant in it.

Brock has been booked a heel throughout, not a tweener but as a heel. Whether he was pummeling Show with a chair or beating the streak. The fans just love it so much when he shows up that they absolutely lose their marbles. As they should

DX started out as heels but talk about being tweeners, they were booked as both faces and heels in that run. And I said BRET hated the AE, dont twist words around son.

Brock has been a dominant sumbitch throughout but Shawn goes in as the babyface because he instantly becomes the proverbial lamb to the slaughter, only catch is Shawn has fared well (better than what most would admit) against big men and monster heels. Yes Vader couldn't get the job done with a much smaller man in HBK, yes Sid who looked like the prototype big guy for WWF lost the big fight at San Antonio at the Rumble, HBK wins this after bleeding like a pig and connecting to the jaw out of nowhere.

 

[Miko]

You guys do know this is over now, right?

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Brock has been booked a heel throughout, not a tweener but as a heel. Whether he was pummeling Show with a chair or beating the streak. The fans just love it so much when he shows up that they absolutely lose their marbles. As they should

That's kinda what I've said. He's a heel that won over the fans, and didn't have to change his style to do so.

DX started out as heels but talk about being tweeners, they were booked as both faces and heels in that run. And I said BRET hated the AE, dont twist words around son.

No they weren't booked as faces. Please provide one piece of babyface booking that the original DX received.

And Bret Hart hated the Attitude Era. Bret "Hitman" Hart, the character you saw on TV, hated the United States. He did not come out every week complaining about something that hadn't even been labelled yet.

Brock has been a dominant sumbitch throughout but Shawn goes in as the babyface because he instantly becomes the proverbial lamb to the slaughter, only catch is Shawn has fared well (better than what most would admit) against big men and monster heels. Yes Vader couldn't get the job done with a much smaller man in HBK, yes Sid who looked like the prototype big guy for WWF lost the big fight at San Antonio at the Rumble, HBK wins this after bleeding like a pig and connecting to the jaw out of nowhere.

Haha, only if you stick your fingers in your ears and ignore the fact that he was a shitty babyface and a natural heel that the fans wanted to see get beat up... and listen to yourself when you say that the fans love it so much when Brock shows up that they absolutely lose their marbles.

Or ignore that neither Vader or Sid were on Lesnar's level, yet he needed the match restarted twice to beat Vader... and he LOST to Sid the first time out (at a big show too). Probably the bigger show, because fans paid to see that match at Survivor Series. The San Antonio Rumble has gone on record as being the most papered show in WWF history... meaning they gave away thousands of tickets for free just to fill the building. Why? Because even in his home town, people did not want to see HBK's babyface act.

But HBK did win this. With a sloppy Kimura and a quick bell. It's Montreal all over again.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

You guys do know this is over now, right?

I know. Don't really care.

It's kinda fun exposing the lack of knowledge and logic of the typical guy who voted HBK in this.