Championship Match: (3) Shawn Michaels vs. (11) Brock Lesnar

[FitFinlay4Life]

If you're against Brock Lesnar, you're always an underdog.

Maybe so but HBK is far, far from as big an underdog as he could have been. His matches could have been much closer and his wins wouldn't have been over as pertinent opponents.

However, what happened after he decimated Undertaker? He lost to Big Show in a match that Lesnar should have dominated, just like he should do here. As usual, Lesnar loses when he gets overly confident, just like he would here.

Only when Paul Heyman turned on him - betrayal ≠ overconfidence.

 

[klunderbunker]

Maybe so but HBK is far, far from as big an underdog as he could have been. His matches could have been much closer and his wins wouldn't have been over as pertinent opponents.

So Shawn hasn't been tested and has had closer matches against lower level talent? That sounds like Lesnar with an even bigger advantage that he should have on paper.

Only when Paul Heyman turned on him - betrayal ≠ overconfidence.

Brock was confident that he could throw Big Show around all over the place. That sounds like confidence to me.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

So, let's take a look and weight the two contenders, their pros and cons.

On the one hand, we have Brock Lesnar who defeated two wrestling legends, in two walks, Steve Austin and John Cena.

On the other hand, there's HBK who earned to hard fought victories against two in ring-technicians, Bret Hart and Kurt Angle.

Obviously, Brock Lesnar has the upper hand as far as stamina is concerned. But that doesn't really matter against a guy who wrestled for 60+ minutes straight at the main event of WM12. A guy who would always put his life into the ring, to provide 5-star wrestling classics, no matter the opponnent and no matter how tired he was going to be. HBK is simply the man.

Lesnar is tough and could beat anyone in a straight up fist-fight. But he's not smart. He almost lost the belt at WM31 to Reigns because of one mistake he did, that got him busted open. He almost lost to Cena at NoC, because he underestimated him. He lost to Cena and HHH at Extreme Rules and WM29, for the same reason. He doesn't think, he just punches.

HBK is obviously the smartest guy to step in the ring. He could outthink any opponent.

Another trait HBK has is that he wrestles like a heel. He could win by count-out, DQ. He doesn't care as long as there's no championship involved. HBK isn't a guy that's going to give Brock a straight up fight, like Cena and Austin.

HBK outwrestles Brock any day of the week. That's a fact that can't be argued by anybody.

All these factors that I mentioned simply make HBK the favourite to win this one.

My only concern is HBK's record in a big match situation. He always brings everything out, but can't get the victory. Austin, Cena, HHH, Taker, Angle, Hogan, Orton. All these guys defeated HBK in a big match situation.

However, Shawn would always win the rematch. Why? Because he knew what his opponent was going to bring to the table. And since we're talking prime, which was during the 1996-1997, Shawn once again has the upper hand.

This is a tough one for me.

HBK gets the upper hand, Brock then kicks HBK's ass for the rest of the match, mistake, Sweet Chin Music, Brock counters, HBK kicks out, beats Brock Lesnar after a low blow that the ref does not see.

I vote for HBK for all the reasons stated and simply because I don't want Brock to win this tournament. Impressive showing by Lesnar, but simply, he's too dumb and can't win against a legend like HBK, not under these circumstances.

 

[Tastycles]

Has Lesnar ever actually lost through stupidity?

I'm just going to put it out there that trusting Mike Tyson was a pretty fucking stupid move too, while we're at it.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

So Shawn hasn't been tested and has had closer matches against lower level talent? That sounds like Lesnar with an even bigger advantage that he should have on paper.

Bret Hart? Previous winner of this very tournament. Kurt Angle? Has beaten everyone who has ever won this tournament except Bret Hart AND who has beaten both finalists here clean. Lower level talent? No. Brilliant build up bouts for Lesnar? Yes.

HBK will not win this bout via the clear underdog route which (again, ironically) takes away Shawn's greatest strength.

Brock was confident that he could throw Big Show around all over the place. That sounds like confidence to me.

Big Show beat Brock Lesnar once because of a referee bump, his advocate firstly undermining his confidence and then turning on him. Show has failed to repeat that in the 5 televised meetings since. Are you saying that Brock was overconfident when his closest ally was repeatedly telling him he couldn't win?

 

[Richard Blonoff]

This is a tournament to determine the best wrestler of all time. Is Shawn Michaels that guy, probably not, but I can say with 100% conviction that Brock Lesnar is not that guy. I vote Shawn.

 

[Loveless]

Lesnar has plowed through Karl Gotch, Mick Foley, Randy Savage, Sting (in WCW!), Steve Austin and John Cena. This whole tournament has been booking reminiscent of his rise to prominence in the WWe (winning the KotR, defeating the Rock, decimating Hulk Hogan for the title and conclusively defeating the Undertaker) and that says to me that they wouldn't book him so strong through 6 rounds to lose to an HBK who still has plenty of gas in the tank and has been booked to be a legitimate threat to him. The final night has been booked to give Lesnar the edge in 'damage' but to give HBK the definite edge in preparation - a relatively even match coupled with Lesnar's storied route to the final tells me that anything other than a Lesnar win would be a slap to the face of every single legend that has lay down to him thus far.

This is exactly why Shawn wins. You build up an unstoppable monster for the sole purpose of having a hero come and knock them down. Lesnar has been booked as unstoppable, he's run through 5 of the most popular faces in the history of the business, everything has been made to this look like a formality and the crowd would unanimously be behind Shawn, all waiting for the kick, the 1-2-3 and the pop.

And then Brock wins?

Nope, not a chance. The hero gets an epic beatdown but doesn't give up and eventually triumphs, everyone goes home happy. The End

 

[klunderbunker]

Bret Hart? Previous winner of this very tournament. Kurt Angle? Has beaten everyone who has ever won this tournament except Bret Hart AND who has beaten both finalists here clean. Lower level talent? No. Brilliant build up bouts for Lesnar? Yes.

Lower than Cena and Austin. Everyone not named Hogan and Rock are.

HBK will not win this bout via the clear underdog route which (again, ironically) takes away Shawn's greatest strength.

Shawn may not have the big deficit coming in, but I give him about ten minutes before he's begging for mercy after suplex #9. That's where it kicks (see what I did there?) in.

Big Show beat Brock Lesnar once because of a referee bump, his advocate firstly undermining his confidence and then turning on him. Show has failed to repeat that in the 5 televised meetings since. Are you saying that Brock was overconfident when his closest ally was repeatedly telling him he couldn't win?

Yep. To go into a match with Big Show with bad ribs and expect to be able to throw Big Show around is overconfidence. However, Lesnar wound up being better than he should have been. That's about Big Show though, not a better option in Shawn.

 

[Tastycles]

Yes, because a guy who has, through the course of the tournament, beaten Karl Gotch, Mick Foley, Randy Savage, Sting, Stone Cold Steve Austin and John Cena is SUDDENLY GOING TO SUCCUMB TO THE HERO FACTOR against Shawn Fucking Michaels who spent about a year of his career being a main event hero and losing to Sid Vicious. Behave.

The perverse beauty of it is that this is by far the most obvious win for Lesnar in the whole tournament and it has come in the final.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

This is exactly why Shawn wins. You build up an unstoppable monster for the sole purpose of having a hero come and knock them down. Lesnar has been booked as unstoppable, he's run through 5 of the most popular faces in the history of the business, everything has been made to this look like a formality and the crowd would unanimously be behind Shawn, all waiting for the kick, the 1-2-3 and the pop.

And then Brock wins?

Nope, not a chance. The hero gets an epic beatdown but doesn't give up and eventually triumphs, everyone goes home happy. The End

HBK beat THE original Brock in the first round in George Hackenschmidt, a dominant giant in Giant Baba in the second round, primo brawler Terry Funk in the third, (former winner of this tournament) the Rock in the fourth, (former winner of this tournament) Bret Hart in the quarters, Lesner like Angle in the semis. Again, HBK is no major underdog heading into this match - he has faced former winners and perfect Lesnar build up guys. The tournament results give Shawn a great base... if he wasn't Shawn Michaels - things are not meant to be going his way. He should be coming in broken, exhausted and with no real idea of what's coming. He is coming in pretty fresh with plenty of foreknowledge. As such this just becomes Lesnar - debut to winning Taker feud.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Lower than Cena and Austin. Everyone not named Hogan and Rock are.

And yet both got further than Hogan and Rock in this 'GOAT' tournament - kayfabe, they're better than Hogan and Rock and equals with Cena and Austin.

Shawn may not have the big deficit coming in, but I give him about ten minutes before he's begging for mercy after suplex #9. That's where it kicks (see what I did there?) in.

Probably did something similar against Angle, still doesn't make him the massive underdog.

Yep. To go into a match with Big Show with bad ribs and expect to be able to throw Big Show around is overconfidence. However, Lesnar wound up being better than he should have been. That's about Big Show though, not a better option in Shawn.

That's pride (see: Hogan, Hulk; Borden, Steve; Cena, John and every other wrestler who's ever gone in with rib injuries and tried to man-handle monsters)... something the master manipulator Heyman was working while undermining his confidence.

 

[klunderbunker]

And yet both got further than Hogan and Rock in this 'GOAT' tournament - kayfabe, they're better than Hogan and Rock and equals with Cena and Austin.

Jericho beat Austin and Rock in the same night. Is he better than they are?

The Miz beat John Cena in one night. Is he better than they are?

Is Brock Lesnar better than Shawn Michaels? Eh probably, but the stars have aligned for Shawn before and as Jesse Ventura said, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

Probably did something similar against Angle, still doesn't make him the massive underdog.

So Shawn is the favorite?

That's pride (see: Hogan, Hulk; Borden, Steve; Cena, John and every other wrestler who's ever gone in with rib injuries and tried to man-handle monsters)... something the master manipulator Heyman was working while undermining his confidence.

I'd put Shawn's pride above Lesnar's as Brock is basically a mercenary. Shawn is a guy who knows nothing but wrestling, and should win here.

 

[L@RISANO]

Hasn't Brock Lesnar post-Mania 30 been treated as a Babyface by the majority of fans in his matches? I can't really see the HBK is the saviour role being played at all in kayfabe.


Brock Lesnar, in the past year, has been well loved everytime he appears and indeed, based on his last appearance on WWE TV, the fans are absolutely behind him as a Face.

Brock has beat the fan favourites on his way to this final, and make no mistake about it, he'll beat Shawn Michaels also, and in kayfabe, based on how this Prime Brock Lesnar's booking has gone, I have no doubts he would be booked to destroy Shawn Michaels also...

Don't get sidetracked guys, this isn't no Face Shawn Michaels vs Heel Brock Lesnar at all, where the hero is booked to go over the unstoppable monster... this is an unstoppable monster that has been booked to beat all comers and the fans have loved every minute of it!



...or are we doing this as a final taking place in 2004?

 

[Dmbfantomas]

So, let's take a look and weight the two contenders, their pros and cons.

On the one hand, we have Brock Lesnar who defeated two wrestling legends, in two walks, Steve Austin and John Cena.

On the other hand, there's HBK who earned to hard fought victories against two in ring-technicians, Bret Hart and Kurt Angle.

Obviously, Brock Lesnar has the upper hand as far as stamina is concerned. But that doesn't really matter against a guy who wrestled for 60+ minutes straight at the main event of WM12. A guy who would always put his life into the ring, to provide 5-star wrestling classics, no matter the opponnent and no matter how tired he was going to be. HBK is simply the man.

Lesnar is tough and could beat anyone in a straight up fist-fight. But he's not smart. He almost lost the belt at WM31 to Reigns because of one mistake he did, that got him busted open. He almost lost to Cena at NoC, because he underestimated him. He lost to Cena and HHH at Extreme Rules and WM29, for the same reason. He doesn't think, he just punches.

HBK is obviously the smartest guy to step in the ring. He could outthink any opponent.

Another trait HBK has is that he wrestles like a heel. He could win by count-out, DQ. He doesn't care as long as there's no championship involved. HBK isn't a guy that's going to give Brock a straight up fight, like Cena and Austin.

HBK outwrestles Brock any day of the week. That's a fact that can't be argued by anybody.

All these factors that I mentioned simply make HBK the favourite to win this one.

My only concern is HBK's record in a big match situation. He always brings everything out, but can't get the victory. Austin, Cena, HHH, Taker, Angle, Hogan, Orton. All these guys defeated HBK in a big match situation.

However, Shawn would always win the rematch. Why? Because he knew what his opponent was going to bring to the table. And since we're talking prime, which was during the 1996-1997, Shawn once again has the upper hand.

This is a tough one for me.

HBK gets the upper hand, Brock then kicks HBK's ass for the rest of the match, mistake, Sweet Chin Music, Brock counters, HBK kicks out, beats Brock Lesnar after a low blow that the ref does not see.

I vote for HBK for all the reasons stated and simply because I don't want Brock to win this tournament. Impressive showing by Lesnar, but simply, he's too dumb and can't win against a legend like HBK, not under these circumstances.

Bork has won an iron man match too, and he didn't need some lame ass bucket full of bullshit surprise stipulation to win it either. Sure, you could say he overpowered Angle, but the main thing that got Brock the win? More than the brute strength, the F5, the Brock Lock, or any physical attack? He outsmarted him, realized a short term loss is worth it for the long term win, and killed a bunch of time before killing Kurt with a chair. He outsmarted the man who trumpets his "Intensity, Integrity, and Intelligence," the latter being his most gloated about attribute. The myth that Brock is stupid needs to end. He's shown to be a great in ring strategist with or without Paul E (he beat Angle in the Ironman without him.) He can certainly get overconfident, but Shawn is just the same. Shawn is defiant and brash, which is pretty bad when you're going against a kill beast with a brain.

Shawn has a ton of weak points. His knees are busted, his back is a wreck, Brock broke his arm, his face is all screwed up from doing too many drugs. Brock has the stomach weakness (which he got fixed and says is 100% so I guess we should believe it) aaaaaaand that's about it for major injuries. He's got a fairly weak chin, but Eric Bischoff basically spouted out the truth about Sweet Chin Music...its kind of a terrible kick. He's not some amazing fighter...he's just a really good entertainer who can get thrown around awesomely.

 

[M]

Shawn is right next to HHH for my least favourite wrestler of all time. Fuck you, Brock wins. I don't care enough to give any of the thousands of reasons why he's better than Shawn in every category imaginable.

 

[nightmare]

....So wait.


I am supposed to believe that a beaten down Shawn fucking Michaels is going to beat this beast of a man that has just taken out Cena AND Austin?


Hilarious.





No doubt that this match would be chock full of that "HBK drunken-style" of wrestling where he is dead on his feet from being beaten so badly & then WHAM!- Superkick. Perfectly logical. Seen it done countless times & it has led to some great nail-biting moments in WWE history. Problem is, that it does not always get him the victory. Remember all those miraculous come back moments in his failed attempts at ending the streak? What about the times where Shawn has been laid out as the announcers remind us about his history of back problems?


HBK is a prideful showboat. He is coming into this match with less in the tank than his opponent & will no doubt be looking for an upset victory. A victory that has people on the edge of their seat, while he carries the fans hopes and dreams on his shoulders to defeat the evil that stands before him. He wants that one well timed kick to connect & that is his only shot. Hell, I will even roll with the scene JMT put up of him falling lifeless on top of Batista- but Brock isnt gonna stay down for that. Austin and Cena are both tougher than HBK & both came into their matches with fans cheering them to defeat the monster. Two men far superior to Shawn & each with a knack for hitting well timed finishers to end it all after the chips are down could not get the job done. Why are we to believe a lesser man would do what they could not?



Brock Lesnar takes the kick, powers out of the pin, rolls over & mauls HBK. With Heyman at ringside gasping for air after that near fall, he screams at Brock to finish it & gets that sadistic smile upon his face as Lesnar smashes HBK with a vicious F-5.



Lesnar wins this & celebrates with Heyman as HHH carries his half dead cross-eyed buddy back to the locker room.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

If you have the slightest bit of respect for the themes, rules, and precedent from earlier rounds from this tournament you cast your vote for Brock Lesnar. Unfortunately for Lesnar supporters that means nothing to me or most anyone else who votes here. I like story over everything and the most compelling story that can still be squeezed out of this story is Michaels upsetting Brock for the win. Forget kb's diatribe pretty much where he focuses on HBK's big wins and Lesnar's loses. It is irrelevant. Forget legacy and drawing power. Forget sense. Just vote HBK because it would be more entertaining to see him do the Davy and Goliath verse voting for Lesnar and his (I can't think of a movie or TV show where the bad monster kills the wee wittle guy).

Plus kb has worked really hard getting HBK the easiest road to the finals possible. Don't let all that work go unrewarded. If we did, we would never get to have mob movies.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

David vs. Goliath? More like Apollo Creed vs. Ivan Drago. That's what this match really is. Not sure who I'd rather have win this, though. But the beatdown from the last two rounds speak for themselves. Lesnar should win this objectively. But nobody gives a shit about the rules at this point except the few faithful. I'll hold off on voting and see who comes out on top for myself.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Ultimately I had to go for Lesnar on this one. No hate against HBK but I in good conscious vote for him when Lesnar just plowed through the biggest star of all time and the biggest star of the last 10 years, you don't have him beat 2 of the biggest all time stars so he can lose to Shawn Michaels.

I get a lot of you will vote for HBK simply because you don't want Lesnar to win, I also accept the fact HBK is an overall better wrestler than Lesnar but after 2 hard fought matches against Angle and Bret even his expertise in comebacks isn't going to be enough to put down Lesnar. I'm sorry but I don't see HBK escaping an F5 and hitting a quick Sweet Chin Music is going to be enough, not against a guy who can't even be pinned after taking 4 Attitude Adjustments. Also admittedly, I want Lesnar to win for no other reason that some of you Lesnar haters take this shit WAY too seriously. Some of you act like it's the biggest travesty in the history of the universe if Lesnar wins. I get you don't care for the guy but give me a break. Lastly for the record, HBK is NOT a bigger star or a better draw than Lesnar, that's some pretty wishful thinking there.

 

[MrHashasheen]

Fuck Lesnar. That albino looking gormless manbeast ain't got nothing on the greying, balding heartbreaking drug-taking highflying cuntface that is Michaels.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

There's another board I like to read (not sure if I'm allowed to link to it), that's filled with old territory guys and old school fans. This match reminds me of them thanks to the Lesner/Triple H match at Wrestlemania where HBK was in Triple H's corner.

Often in the past, when you saw a setup for a match like that, the guy in HBK's position would be really there as backup because there was a danger one guy was going to shoot on the other. So these old territory guys started a running joke that's lasted ever since that HBK was really in that match to take out Brock in case he tried shooting on the Game

So with that said... and I'm sure next to no shits given that it was said...

Brock wins.

I mean c'mon. It's a bad, uninspired final we've got here, so what else can we do but actually try following the rules of this thing. Brock's had a FAR easier path to the finals in this one night event. He's manhandled guys that were superior to HBK (and proved it by beating him). He's fresher. He's stronger. He's shown far more skill than his detractors give him credit for (there's more to the guy than suplexes and F5's). He's shown to be far more resilient by being next to impossible to keep down by the toughest finishers around. He's got absolutely everything over HBK.

Give it to Brock. He wasn't the best choice for the tournament... but he is the best choice for this match. Even if HBK shoots on him

 

[hatehabsforever]

Brock Lesnar has had an amazing year or so run in WWE (when he chooses to be there). And of course he was pretty dominant a decade or so ago when he was the next big thing in WWE. We all know what he has done in his most recent tenure in WWE. An extended championship run which only ended due to heel shenanigans in which he himself was not pinned. He ended the most prestigious accomplishment in WWE history (arguably) when he ended the undefeated streak for the Undertaker at Wrestlemania. He has defeated some of the biggest names, and he has done so in a convincing, dominating manner.

Having said all of this, no one is invincible. The WWE machine has built his character into an unstoppable monster, a suplex machine, someone who if you believe some of the guys on here, would be unable to be stopped, even by the tank that Rusev rode into Wrestlemania on a few weeks ago. And I for one am not buying it. No one is invincible in the kayfabe world of professional wrestling. Lots of times over they years, huge menacing guys have come along who have taken the pro wrestling world by storm, yet all of them have been able to be defeated by the right guy in the appropriate time. And that's what I see happening here.

There's more to pro wrestling than being a beast incarnate who lives in Suplex City (bitch). There's passion for the business. There's longevity, experience, and wrestling acumen that only comes with being in the business and passionate about it for an extended period of time. There's the ability to rise to the occasion, sometimes against all odds, to bring the desired result to the event.

And there's overconfidence bordering on arrogance. And if Lesnar (with Heyman in his ear) believes half of the hype associated with him, half of the sentiments that some of the folks here on these forums espouse regarding him, half of the viewpoint that he's an unstoppable freak of nature, he comes into this finals matchup overconfident, unfocused, possibly even dismissive of his opponent. And that's all it takes in the world of professional wrestling to see the big guy go down.

Sure, it's going to be a physical affair and in saying this, I'm sure a portion of this match will involve HBK being tossed around the ring like a rag doll, wishing he had stayed retired. And as Lesnar loses his focus, strutting for the crowd, parading around like the arrogant part timer that he is, it would simply take one well timed and properly executed Sweet Chin Music, and the big guy goes down.

Some would consider this an upset. I would not. Experience over arrogance. Passion over self entitlement. Longevity over cameos.

Vote the Heartbreak Kid. Vote Shawn Michaels.

 

[nightmare]

If the Canadian superhero Owen Hart can knock HBK silly with an enziguri, just what the hell do you think Brock Lesnar will do? Sure that kick wasnt intended to be stiff enough to cause Shawn harm, but Lesnar's whole game is designed to maul his opponent.


You know, I love HBK. Always fun to see the guy & waiting for him to kick someone in the face was always enjoyable. He may be overrated at times, but he still brought some damn good memories along with that. Here is the deal- Brock Lesnar gives no fucks about nostalgia. He is not concerned with DX's retirement tour, almost beating The Undertaker or whatever else that we will remember Shawn for. HBK will fill our hearts once again by being very entertaining & coming up short 20 times with near falls. It will be exciting, but in no way enough to take out Lesnar.


Lesnar, on the other hand, has plenty in the arsenal to take out Shawn. Hell, I could even see Brock catching HBK when he tries a moonsault, tossing him on his shoulders & letting loose with an F-5.

 

[rbv13]

Throughout the Championship Region I have voted for whose spouse/significant other I found to be more attractive. It has been quite hard (pun intended) at times but thanks to an old playboy and an image of Sable kissing Tori Wilson she has given her man the edge in each battle.

Sable over the Nitro Girl. A Vote for Sable is a Vote for Brock.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Jericho beat Austin and Rock in the same night. Is he better than they are?

On that night, yes.

The Miz beat John Cena in one night. Is he better than they are?

On that night, yes.

Is Brock Lesnar better than Shawn Michaels? Eh probably, but the stars have aligned for Shawn before and as Jesse Ventura said, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

But that's my point - HBK doesn't do lucky. His specialty is overcoming odds - he isn't having to do that here.

So Shawn is the favorite?

Not quite, but the fact that he isn't coming in with no chance of winning goes against the guy who took placing Ricky Morton to new heights.

I'd put Shawn's pride above Lesnar's as Brock is basically a mercenary. Shawn is a guy who knows nothing but wrestling, and should win here.

I agree completely but, as I said in my first post, I set my stall out in the opening of this 'one night' to follow a kayfabe narrative and it's my belief that Lesnar would beat HBK from the way the WZT has panned out this year.