Cena Region, Third Round, Ultimate Submission: (2) Undertaker vs. (10) El Santo

[klunderbunker]

This is a third round match in the Cena Region. It is an Ultimate Submission match. It will be held at the TD Banknorth Garden in Boston, Massachusetts.

Rules: This match will be won by whomever earns the most submissions in a thirty minute time limit. While there are no disqualifications, assume there is no major use of weapons.

#2. Undertaker

Vs.

#10. El Santo

​

Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster. Assume that the wrestlers are coming in fresh after their first round match.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Interesting. Five years ago, El Santo was in an Ultimate Submission Match against Mick Foley here on the forums. Foley won 72-29, which is fairly decisive. The main argument was Foley was not known for losing via submission (which was actually refuted a couple of times, having passed out and all, but eh). He did have a character that could fall from great heights and still keep fighting, so that's understandable. Foley made a career out of being the guy who God couldn't even keep down.

Now El Santo is going up against a man that has never lost a match via submission. Undertaker literally has never tapped out. There was that one time when him and Kurt Angle had that weird pin/submit moment, but that was rendered a draw and doesn't count for shit. The Undertaker rarely lost clean, either, and when he was in his prime even less so. I admit to not knowing much about El Santo outside of being a pop culture icon in Mexico, but I think here the odds are heavily stacked against him. Prime Undertaker was nigh invincible, being a shambling zombie wizard mortician guy. There's good reason he wasn't shown to submit.

Hell's Gate is a solid submission finisher, too.

Vote Taker.

 

[Dmbfantomas]

Interesting. Five years ago, El Santo was in an Ultimate Submission Match against Mick Foley here on the forums. Foley won 72-29, which is fairly decisive. The main argument was Foley was not known for losing via submission (which was actually refuted a couple of times, having passed out and all, but eh). He did have a character that could fall from great heights and still keep fighting, so that's understandable. Foley made a career out of being the guy who God couldn't even keep down.

Now El Santo is going up against a man that has never lost a match via submission. Undertaker literally has never tapped out. There was that one time when him and Kurt Angle had that weird pin/submit moment, but that was rendered a draw and doesn't count for shit. The Undertaker rarely lost clean, either, and when he was in his prime even less so. I admit to not knowing much about El Santo outside of being a pop culture icon in Mexico, but I think here the odds are heavily stacked against him. Prime Undertaker was nigh invincible, being a shambling zombie wizard mortician guy. There's good reason he wasn't shown to submit.

Hell's Gate is a solid submission finisher, too.

Vote Taker.

I'm voting for Taker, but Taker DID tap to Bork at Summerslam but the timekeeper got a little over anxious and rang too early. Fuck that was stupid.

Anyway, vote Taker. Santo is huge, but Taker is a fucking killer and will end up making Santo pass out to the Hell's Gate. If he can get Bork to pass out in it, and Trips to tap out to it, I'll take him.

 

[Bernkastel]

Normally I'd be in the pro-Santo camp, as Undy is exactly the kind of character that Santo would defeat. He made a career that lasted twice as long as Taker's, defeating every kind of monster imaginable: werewolves, vampires, aliens, zombies, you name it. But I think the kayfabe argument has swayed me.

Undertaker made a career of not submitting and not being KO'ed. The only 2 times he was ever close was against high class shooters like Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle; of which Santo is not. He was a fine technician, but he wasn't a legit grappler by any means. Undertaker isn't either, but he does have a variety of submission holds in his arsenal: the Hell's Gate, the triangle choke, and the dragon sleeper. All of which are deadly.

The match might end with a score of 1-0, but without the hometown advantage or the legit grappling credentials, I can't see a feasible argument for Santo. Undertaker wins.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

Interesting contest. We've effectively got the devil versus a literal saint. Neither man is likely to tap, being big manly babyfaces in their pomp who would never submit willingly. Now passing out is a real option and both have submission finishers in their arsenal. Taker's got that Hell's Gate which has made a lot of top guys tap as well as stubborn, overpowered faces like Brock in 2015, pass out. Santo has a Camel Clutch that he put many opponents away with and as Rusev proved throughout much of his reign, you can make someone pass out with that move too.

Ultimately for me it's going to come down to being able to break the opponents respective submission move and while grabbing the ropes may provide some form of salvation in Hell Gate, you ultimately can't see so finding them is going to be a bugger and bridging into a pinfall attempt will do nothing here. Santo's going to have to try and muscle his way out of this with a powerbomb style counter, but how many times can he do that? And how many times will he have come across a finisher like that? The Camel Clutch is a fairly routine wrestling hold that looks devastating, but due to its semi-regular usage, counters are fairly common knowledge. With a guy of Taker's experience and strength, breaking it with raw power and canny isn't massively difficult.

Not to mention, Taker known more than the Hells Gate, using a Triangle Choke, Dragon Sleeper and various forms of armbar to mixed success. Santo has his submission, but it's likely his sole one. The Deadman can deprive Santo of oxygen over and over until the ref has to stop it for the Saint's safety. Taker for the win.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

If this match took place in Mexico, I'd be tempted to give Santo the vote because of his godlike status there. One of Santos' finishers was the Camel Clutch, innovated by Gory Guerrero no less, and given Santos' status coupled with the finisher, I think he'd be able to go over most opponents in a submission match.

The Undertaker, however, is simply not most other opponents. Like Santo, it's unlikely to see Taker tapping or passing out. While it's possible for an opponent to pass out to the Camel Clutch, I doubt Santo's 5'10, 200lbs. frame can generate enough power and force to render Taker unconscious and I think he'd have to certainly lock Taker into the move several times and for significant periods of time for the move to have the desired effect. It's possible, but I don't think it's too likely. Santo may be able to slip out of Hell's Gate, either by simply managing prevent Taker from getting it locked on properly or being able to crawl out of the ring via the ropes, the first time or two he goes for it. Eventually though, Taker will manage to lock it on properly and I imagine Santo will be fairly fatigued by this time; locked in properly, Santo will start feeling the effects very quickly and even if he doesn't tap out, he'll pass out eventually due to being starved of oxygen. If Taker manages to lock in Hell's Gate one time successfully, then I think the match is all but over as it'll have sapped much of Santo's strength. Santo will be lethargic, his coordination my well be screwed up and it's really just a matter of time. I could see Taker landing all of his big moves once again after Hell's Gate, even if he's hit them once before, including the Chokeslam, Last Ride and Tombstone. Taker can't win the match with these moves, unless he's just so relentless with his offense that Santo is unable to put up any remote defense, as there's no pinfall involved but each of these moves will really take it out of Santo. As a result, Taker leisurely locks in Hell's Gate once again and Santo either has to tap, passes out or is just so completely out of it that the ref stops it and gives Taker a fall.

If the match goes the full 30 minutes, I see Taker having gotten 2, possibly 3 submissions to Santo's getting none. Taker moves on.

 

[Hyorinmaru]

Another that goes down to the stip for me.

Santo has the Camel Clutch which is a great move but I don't see it keeping 'Taker down more than once if even that much. He would stand up and power out of it and then lock in one of any submissions in his arsenal that are a lot more difficult to power out of.

I just don't see Undertake tapping out more than once and even that much I only see him doing as a nod to Santo's legendary status

 

[ShinChan]

I knew nothing about El Santo. But now that I know that he's one of the greatest Mexican legends ever. Also, interesting note is that he revealed his face on broadcast just once in his life. A week before his unfortunate death. Truly a legend who lived his gimmick entire life. Hats off to him.

However, he can't make Undertaker submit. Undertaker losing due to submission is very rare. I don't think that he'll do so in his country. If it was Mexico, it's El Santo all way as he was huge in Mexico.

 

[Tastycles]

I've been Santo's biggest cheerleader for years, but I can't really see how he would make Undertaker tap out several times. Sorry Santo, it's not for you. Undertaker wins.