Cena Region, Fourth Round, 60 Minute Iron Man Match: (1) John Cena vs. (5) Terry Funk

Discussion in 'Cena Region' started by klunderbunker, Apr 19, 2016.

?

Who Wins This Match?

  1. John Cena

  2. Terry Funk

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
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  1. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    This is a fourth round match in the Cena Region and it is a 60 Minute Iron Man match. It will be held at Madison Square Garden in New York City, New York. Assume one week has passed since the last round, meaning all injuries might not have healed.


    [​IMG]

    Rules: There is a 60 minute time limit and the most falls in that time limit wins. A fall can be obtained by pinfall, submission, countout or disqualification.


    [​IMG]


    #1. John Cena


    Vs.


    [​IMG]


    #5. Terry Funk





    Polls will be open for five days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.


    Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.
     
  2. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost What they f*ck happened in the thread section here

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    Ye Cena takes this 10 outta 10 times. This is a match basically where Funk puts Cena over and they shake hands or some shit like that. The Funker prolly gifts a fall to Cena by getting himself DQ'd. Some crazy batshit stuff.

    But ye Cena to win.
     
  3. OYDK

    OYDK King Of The Ring

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    Cena's one of the few guys to actually wrestle a legitimate 60 minute iron man match, and he came out on top to boot. Funk has undoubtedly wrestled close to an hour more than once but he's never come close to reaching the heights of Cena. Considering the stipulation doesn't really favor either guy in this one, I have to go with who I think should and would have gone over had these two ever met... I don't think there's much doubt that it would have been John Cena.
     
  4. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Umm.... Terry Funk during his NWA title run was a time-limit-draw machine. He wasn't the type who'd be trading falls with Randy Orton in the confines of a sixty minute match. All over the world, he's survived sixty time and time again against the toughest the industry had to offer.

    If Randy Orton can get falls over Cena within a sixty minute limit, no doubt Funk can do the same. But will Cena be able to touch Funk?

    You think an endurance machine who went toe-to-toe in the '70s against Bobo Brazil, Jerry Lawler, Giant Baba, Jack Briscoe, and Harley Race is scared of going long? Funk was the NWA Champion when those guys were running hot, arguably a greater accomplishment than the comparatively depleted industry Cena has reigned over.

    Cena's the guy who'll be playing catch-up here.

    I'm leaning Funk, but could be swayed to vote Cena. Either way, you're out of your depth.
     
  5. OYDK

    OYDK King Of The Ring

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    Never watched Funk during the 70s and it's been a while since I've specifically watched his 80's stuff. I remember him going close to an hour or the full thing a few times, I mentioned that. Cena's also gone 60 more than once though which is why I said the stip doesn't really favor anyone. We've all seen that both guys can do it relatively easily. I don't think I ever said Funk was scared of going 60. Actually, I know I never said that.

    Also, why wouldn't Cena be able to touch Funk? Yeah Funk has survived 60 minutes but he's also lost numerous times to stars much below Cena's caliber. Somebody has to win and I don't see Funk beating Cena in any situation, much less an Iron Man Match. That's just me though.

    If you're arguing that Funk was a bigger star, I'd say I disagree. Funk was good NWA champ but he's not on the level of John Cena in terms of star power.
     
  6. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    The issue I take is the notion that Cena's Iron Man match experience is relevant at all. How many times has Cena gone that long in a period of over ten years? Once. And he lost several falls over the course of that hour.

    It holds zero weight against a guy like Funk who's gone with zero falls for sixty minutes many times against the best of his generation.

    Cena hasn't gone sixty more than once. He's never had a Chamber or Rumble stint of that length to my knowledge. As far as I know, his next closest singles matches were against HBK in 2007. The longest of those matches was around 55 minutes (or so the story goes) and Cena lost. Against a guy even slightly more conditioned to go long (which was part of HBK's classic match machine schtick), Cena ate the fall. Against 70s Terry Funk? He doesn't stand a chance.

    Yes, I'm aware Cena has a small handful of really lengthy matches over his decade of dominance against the likes of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan. They hover around the thirty minute range at best and are exceptions rather than the rule.

    Funk is hardened to the sixty minute match in ways Cena simply is not.

    You implied it by disrespectfully mentioning Cena's match with Orton. Your desire to spam every thread in this tournament has led to quite a few dud posts. That was among the most glaring.

    Not at his peak as the world's champion. Meanwhile, Cena lost clean as a sheet during arguably his hottest period to Great Khali.

    Yes. It is just you.

    Context. Look at Funk's star power within the context of its time. In absolute terms, Cena's a bigger star. But Funk never had a modern media behemoth behind him. I tend to adjust for those things when making comparisons.
     
  7. Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.

    Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D. Kamehamehaaaaa!!

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    Terry Funk barely, just barely, survived a last man standing match against Lou Thesz. Which means that he walks into this match, absolutely destroyed. Cena had a walk over Orton. Funk puts some effort, but c'mon.. in the end Funk won't be able to even stand properly, after an hour with John Cena. And we're talking 2007 Cena here. That Cena was nearly untouchable and he's facing a Terry Funk that came out of the hospital, in order to participate in this one.

    Vote Cena all the way.
     
  8. Harthan

    Harthan Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus

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    The stipulation is super interesting to me. The first thing that popped into my head is the difference in condition. These guys are at very similar measurables in their prime, but I'm sure Cena has a much lower body fat percentage and corresponding, more muscle mass and a lower resting heart rate. That's theoretically huge in a match scheduled to go at least sixty minutes. At the same time, Funk is part of that old school class of wrestlers who went super long all the time as Coco mentioned all the time, and it's not like Funk wasn't athletic at all or anything. Both of these guys profile as guys who shouldn't have any problem going sixty - but the big difference to me is that Funk has gone sixty with the athletes of his day, and, Cena has gone that long with the athletes of his. There's going to be a huge difference in terms of Funk keeping up with Cena versus keeping up with his peers. The dude is just straight up more athletic and in better shape than most likely anyone Funk has ever faced, and he's going to be the one getting worn out trying to keep up with John, not the other way around. A match without a guaranteed minimum time or a hardcore stipulation was what Funk needed to get the win here. A match more about conditioning than skill favors a guy who's already the favorite on resume alone, and despite Funk's reputation for going long in his day, I just don't see him being able to successfully keep up with Cena for the final stretch of this thing.

    Funk's only hope probably rests in the fact that a DQ is just one point against him and that he might be able to totally wreck Cena with hardcore expertise once he starts getting gassed, and hope to score multiple falls off of that. But Cena is Cena - how much absurd stuff has this guy kicked out of? Even that hope for Funk is slim.

    I just don't see a way this match plays out for a Funk win. Cena can withstand the punishment and will eventually wear down Funk to get the necessary falls to carry this one.
     
  9. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    You've seen Orton and Cena work gimmick matches against one another before, right? They're portrayed as near equals. That match Cena had with Orton last round, while not a close vote, had probably ten+ finisher kickouts and (if their previous encounters are any indication) possibly a torture scene with no shortage of homoerotic undertones.

    Cena's not exactly going to be fresh as a daisy here. And that's all that needs to be said on this matter.
     
  10. Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.

    Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D. Kamehamehaaaaa!!

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    Doesn't the vote count for each star, supposed to be something like damage meter in this tournament?
     
  11. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    This is an argument I've used in the past, and it is a good one to use. The difference being when I used it, Cena was drawn against Bruno, a guy who regularly went for a very long time, and was proven to be able to win these same matches.

    Terry's a tough son of a bitch, there's no doubt about that. But if his strategy is focused on surviving, as opposed to Orton's offensively based strategy, it really begs the question: Can Terry get the same amount, if not more pinfalls than Cena in this match-up? Chances are that Funk will definitely take less falls than Orton did in his own actual match, but on the flip-side, this also means that Funk will have more difficulty putting Cena down for the three-counts himself, due to the very nature of Funk's strategy.

    I raise you this counter-argument: Cena is the main reason the industry is still in such a position of power to this day. While wrestling has seen more proactive times, Cena generates a truckload of money from merchandising and ticket sales, and is very much the glue that is helping professional wrestling remain relevant on a mainstream level. Neither Funk, nor the 5 other men you named, as successful as their careers have been, can claim this.

    The fact that Cena is as culturally relevant in an industry past its prime on a mainstream level is a testament to Cena himself, no one else.
     
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  12. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Not in my book. The idea that Cena is semi-squashing Orton defies reality, so I don't take the actual vote count seriously.

    I'd posit that Funk is able to endure punishment just as well as Cena. So not only do I think Funk suffers fewer falls than Orton did against Cena. I think Funk suffers none at all and it's his proven ability to longer more regularly than Cena that makes the difference. It'll be a late-game fall as wearing Cena out is no mean feat, but one is all it takes. Final score will be Funk: 1, Cena: 0.

    Conversely, no man has had the opportunity to work their primes as the apple of Vince McMahon's eye. Chicken and egg and all that.

    Impressively dismissive of Baba, BTW. His decades worth of influence rival Cena's commercial success in terms of importance to the industry in the grand scheme you're alluding to.

    I'd say it's a much bigger victory for what the WWE machine has become. Cena's a star, no doubt. You couldn't put just anyone in his spot and see the same results. But a great degree of his success is a result of the system.
     
  13. Cena Is A Punk Rocker

    Cena Is A Punk Rocker Accidental spam artist

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    I'm voting for Funk strictly because I enjoy his movies more than any of the Cena catalog.
     
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  14. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    You suggest that Funk would be able to take punishment just as well as Cena, but think Funk has an advantage somehow? Cena beat Orton in his prime decisively in a pinfall-heavy environment, whereas a much more defensive Funk fought primarily for a tie, and not for the victory, which would put him in a disadvantage in a knockout tournament such as this one. I understand Orton is not on the same level of Harley Race and the like, but this proves Cena's offensive capabilities are just as ferocious as his defensive abilities also. Funk's NWA prime was very much focused on a defensive style, and you've conceded that Cena and Funk have a similar level of endurance.

    Yes, but then the logic behind voting becomes less about accomplishments, and more about who you prefer due to the very subjective and inaccurate way of determining how well Person X would do in scenario Y. If you want to vote Funk because you like him more, go ahead. But using this as an argument to get people to vote Funk is inherently flawed, because Brazil, Baba, Race, Briscoe and Lawler were never in those positions; we can only go off what actually happened with these men, and the same applies to Funk. The same logic can also be applied to Cena with certain scenarios also.

    That's not a dismissal of Baba at all. I'm saying that Cena's mainstream appeal is not solely isolated to Japan; it is relatively ubiquitous anywhere with universal television or internet access. As big as Baba was (haha), it was mostly contained in Japan. Again, not a jibe against Baba because he transcended wrestling more so than Cena in his native Japan, but it becomes a tall vs wide argument then.

    The system has actually provided plenty of examples of failures; people groomed to be the next big thing and then failed to achieve this. While 2001 onwards WWF was in a safe position due to a lack of credible challengers, the WWF could have very easily collapsed if they didn't maintain monetary flow throughout their company. And yes, while the PG era hasn't been the brightest hour for WWE, it is Cena who is drawing them by far the most money, selling the most merchandise, winning the most matches and feuds, and instrumental in maintaining WWE's hegemony on the wrestling industry.
     
  15. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Yeah. Equal propensity for taking punishment sets the table for a low-scoring affair. Funk's greater experience going long lets him take it late in the game.

    If you want to compare star power in modern media versus the seventies, some adjustments need to be made for fair comparisons. When you calculate a price index, you use a base year. You balance things out. It's called nuance. Try it sometime.

    I said outright that the machine isn't the entire story. Cena's a star, no doubt. But the machine plus that star power put him in a stratosphere not afforded to equally legit stars who never had that kind of exposure.

    The machine is a variable that has a place in the John Cena equation. To pretend otherwise is obtuse.
     
  16. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    I have no issue with Funk taking less falls than Orton, and the same logic would apply to Cena. My point is, if Funk's strategy is very much focused on defence, where as Cena has a balanced strategy, yet an equal propensity for taking punishment as Funk, why would Funk be able to outmatch Cena in terms of offensive potential when it's been established that Funk fights for ties, whereas Cena fights for a win? If you're going to suggest that Funk is going to play for a win (which he will be due to the nature of the tournament), surely, there must be a consequence to this; otherwise why wouldn't Funk win his matches decisively against other talent?

    Also, sudden death rules are a factor in this match which Funk never had to deal with in his title defences, so I feel my analogy still stands if you're going to go down the "Funk wasn't trying to win those matches, he was trying to keep the title above all else" route.

    There's a difference between what you're suggesting in this post and the last though. In your last post, you are directly saying that neither of those 6 men you mentioned in your initial post had the same opportunity that Cena did. There's a difference between making base adjustments for, let's say Marilyn Monroe to be compared to Lady Gaga in a fair and nuanced manner, rather than inserting Marilyn Monroe into the same position as Lady Gaga and saying "What would the outcome be?" and vice-versa. You cannot accurately compare how one would do in another's environment, but you can compare and contrast the pair of them more accurately, because these arguments are based from a factual point of view, and are also backed up with statistics.


    There's no denying that the machine played a role in producing John Cena on the level he is today, but you said it yourself; this is a John Cena equation, not a equation of the machine. The machine is only part of the equation that creates the product that is John Cena, and as stated, the machine has been a part of much less successful equations in the past; I'd vote a Harley Race over a Lex Luger in a heartbeat. For Cena to achieve the success he has, he plays an extremely vital role in it.
     
  17. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Stopping here. You're confused.

    Funk doesn't fight defensively in hopes of a draw like you'll imply. He doesn't fight for ties. He receives them though against people from his era equally versed in going long.

    Both men are offensive-minded. Both men can take a lot of punishment. But Funk can go for longer than Cena. He gets the eventual deciding fall. That's the ballgame.

    Which I would not.

    With enough data, you can use metrics which are relevant in both eras against more modern metrics to determine the relationship between those variables among modern wrestlers. Using those relationships, an intelligent person would theoretically be able to forecast the success some older wrestlers would enjoy in a modern world.

    There are a few caveats, but a creative person with enough time could play this game.

    I'm not going down the rabbit hole though and you're not creative, so we've reached an impasse.

    You setting up Luger as a fall guy says you've missed my point yet again. Feel free to go back at your leisure. Going in circles is making me dizzy.
     
  18. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    You know what? I'm gonna back track.

    If Randy Orton can get five falls over Cena in an hour, Funk should be able to get at least six.

    John Cena has never worked an hour without taking a fall.

    Terry Funk has. Frequently.

    The answer is obvious: Funk runs wild on Cena.
     
  19. Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.

    Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D. Kamehamehaaaaa!!

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    Coco, even if you're not taking the vote count into consideration, you have to at least take into account, the match stipulation of the previous week. Funk defeated a true badass, Lou Thesz, in a Last Man Standing match, while Cena defeated a not so bad-ass Randy Orton in a Street Fight.

    Wouldn't you agree that the LMS match has taken a bigger toll on Funk's body? Bigger than what the Street Fight has taken on Cena's at least.

    A 100% Funk could do it, but I don't think Funk is walking into this one 100%. He's a hardcore legend for a reason. The stuff he might have pulled last week in the hardcore enviroment, must have some effect.
     
  20. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    But in Funk's time period, when he was defending the NWA championship, sudden death was not a factor. So long as Funk made the time limit with an equal amount of pinfalls, he'd leave the match with the title. He had an advantage over his challengers because he'd ultimately achieve his endgame of defending the title even if he tied. The same logic does not apply here, which means Funk would have to modify his strategy against an equally defensive opponent. You refer to him as a time-limit-draw machine, so you must be willing to admit his forte is getting draws as opposed to getting wins. Therefore, against an opponent the level of Cena, he'd need to change his core strategy, which isn't something Funk isn't capable of doing, but it is something that will have an effect on his normal fighting style in these kinds of matches.

    The key term is theoretically. We cannot be sure of how well these past wrestlers would adapt to the modern wrestling industry. Even after intensive study, the very best we can do is estimate, which is not enough substantial proof to use it in an argument of "These people would be more successful than Cena in this time period."

    And there is more than a few caveats, think more a metric fuckton. That's the reason I'm not devoting the time to it, and besides, it would be moronic of the pair of us to argue over something that never happened.

    Luger is not a fall guy, he is just an example I have used to say that I would not exclusively vote for anything the WWF/E machine has produced to be the next big thing over the likes of Harley Race, Giant Baba and Terry Funk. There are very distinct differences between Luger and Cena, and why the former is generally seen as a failure as the top star, and the latter is seen as a great success.

    So you're distancing yourself from your fact you admitted Cena has the same level of endurance as Funk?

    I'd also like to bring up that Cena wrestled nearly an hour-long match against HBK in 2007 RAW, in a relatively negligible position, far more negligible than Funk's own title defences anyhow. Yes, he lost that match, but this was not a decisive match; this was feud enhancement, and did not effect the status quo. Michaels had everything to win in that match to further their feud, and Cena had nothing to lose considering he had already beaten Michaels decisively at Wrestlemania. In a decisive match between Terry Funk; Cena would have far more to fight for, and would be far more likely to be booked over Funk than the alternative.

    I understand you want Funk to win, and you'll be voting him, but your argument for Funk is based off "what-ifs" and changing your stances to suit your position.
     
  21. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    While I've knocked Orton many times in this thread for not being on Funk's level, Orton has proved to be suitably competitive against Cena and plenty bad-ass in gimmick situations. We're talking about a guy who has a lengthy list of people he seriously concussed and put on the shelf, ranging from HBK to RVD to Y2J. Orton will give Cena a brutal streetfight. Cena and Funk will be comparably beat up coming into this one.

    So your argument is that Funk laid off on guys and didn't want to take that trip to the pay window to collect a big winner's purse?

    Sure. Whatever you say.

    He said in a discussion regarding a hypothetical Funk vs Cena match.

    The argument has never been that Cena isn't a star. Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you really this stupid?

    Cena eats five falls in an hour to Orton?

    Yeah, I'll back right off of it.

    Which I already brought up.

    Except it actually wasn't feud enhancement. It was the final one on one encounter they had that year and Cena and HBK went 1-1 in singles matches against one another in 2007.

    The main takeaway from the London match continues to be that the longer Cena goes, the more likely he is to come up short, hence this match working in HBK's favour. Look at Cena's longest singles matches. Outside the HBK Mania match as the obvious exception, pushing Cena over 25 minutes tends to result in his defeat. Punk a MITB, Bryan at SummerSlam, HBK in London, Rock in Miami, Edge at Backlash 2009. There are examples to the contrary, but not many. There's a disturbing trend with Cena in matches over twenty five minutes.

    I'd actually prefer Cena win. Unfortunately, I have to go with logic and vote for Funk.
     
  22. Dmbfantomas

    Dmbfantomas Bald Billy was Better

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    Coco has swayed me. While I'll be totally fine with Juan winning, his record in long matches is disheartening. Terry Funk is an awesome talent and the gimmick favors him.

    I could also see him using the Lesnar strategy in this match.
     
  23. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Not entirely sure at the time who I'm voting for here. Terry Funk has wrestled hour long draws in his mid 40's and did it pretty much every night for over a year straight as NWA champion so there is no question he's more equipped for this match. Cena is the guy who often overcomes the odds to win but even this one might be too much for him. Funk isn't taking too many falls in this match and Cena took quite a few against Orton, someone who isn't quite Terry Funk, I can't imagine Funk getting less than 5 or 6 falls with all the tricks that guy knows and at the moment I can't see Cena putting Funk down for that many losses in an hour.

    Cena is a huge star and has quite the career, this could very well be another one of those Cena does the impossible moments but my better judgment is leaning towards Funk here.
     
  24. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    No, I'm saying Funk would be happy with a tie in kayfabe because he would keep the title and his opponent would gain nothing in return.

    You're trying to use hypothesis to argue for a hypothetical match. To add multiple hypothesis to the equation would just be smoke and mirrors, something you're very good at adding to debates.


    No, I never implied that you said Cena wasn't a star, I implied you were over-estimating the effect of the WWE machine on Cena's legacy.


    Yet you ignore the fact that Orton ate six falls himself, and Cena's endgame was to win the match, not to tie it like the majority of Funk's major Ironman matches played out.

    Their feud did not end there and then though; there was a final four way match between the pair of them, Orton and Edge which Cena won, before he moved on to feud with Khali.

    I'll be honest, this is a good point. Cena does have a tendency to lose matches that go on for a long time, and with the stipulation, this is guaranteed to go on for a long time. However, the majority of your examples were at a time where Cena had very little to gain in winning them; they weren't decisive loses and it wasn't long before Cena was back on top once more. In the WZT, where both men have everything to gain from a win, there's no doubt in my mind that a prime Cena would be booked to defeat a prime Funk in this kind of match.


    So using hypothetical arguments and flip-flopping on opinions is more logical than voting Cena?
     
  25. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Except in kayfabe, the whole point of working those main events is to win and take home the big purse. So your theory makes no sense.

    Though a lot of your "logic" seems to rest on guys having no heart when it's convenient to your argument. We'll get to that soon.

    It's inter-era fake professional wrestling. At some level, a lot of these matches are going to come down to some level of extrapolation and finding equivalencies across the decades. Nuance isn't smoke and mirrors just because it's causing your brain to overheat.

    And I say you're underestimating it. Should we just park this one here?

    Funk's endgame is always to win. He has more heart than you'd give him credit for.

    I'm also not ignoring that Orton ate six. A guy who ate six hung five on Cena. Funk is going to walk all over Big Match John.

    So it's still 1-1? Gotcha.

    Yeah, Cena had little to win in world title matches, a big match in London against a fierce rival, and a match with Rock that he spoke about as though it would define is legacy. Of course Cena had no problem losing those matches. :rolleyes:

    And once again, when it's convenient you assume Cena's heart isn't in it. Who's using smoke and mirrors now?

    Against what you're offering up? Yeah.
     
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