Can you have an "informed" racist?

[Uncle Sam]

Careful with the infractions in here boys; people might just get their wording wrong. Or nobody will reply.

Anyway, this has spilled over from the Board Room. I'm sure Sly will summarise his own argument, should he appear, but I'll try in the mean time, no doubt doing a horrifically inaccurate job of it.

SlyFox (SlyFox696) seemed to suggest that to be racist, you have to be ignorant. Hence, if you have decent justification for racial prejudice (his example being members of a certain group raping your mother) then that's not racism.

However, I disagree. Firstly, I don't think there is a "good" justification for racism. I also don't think stereotyping is the same as racism. You have to suggest a certain race is inferior, not just different, to be racist. Racism with justification is still racism, as I see it. If you hate black people because a group of black guys smashed up your car, fair enough, you have justification, but you're still racist.

Oh, and please try and keep tempers in check. Otherwise we're no better than [members of a particular race].

 

[klunderbunker]

While I feel this is a powder keg, here goes.

I'm with Sam. Racism would be seen as hating or downplaying an entire race of people. Are there bad Asians or Muslims or bad anything else out there? Of course there are. However taht doesn't make every single one of them bad or evil or whatever. You can attempt to justify whatever you want about a particular group, but at the end of the day you still dislike that group because of either their color, gender, creed or whatever. You're making a generalization of everyone in that group, and there's no way you can prove that what you're saying holds true for everyone. In Sly's case, sure there's a reason to be angry against that small group of Asians or whatever the case may be, but that doesn't mean all Asians are rapists.

 

[Ms. TM Canada]

You may have what is justification in your mind (like you said, someone of certain race does you wrong, you hate that race), but it's probably still ignorant and stupid (at least in my mind, not everyone's).
If I hate all black people because one insulted me or something, I'm an idiot because I'm labeling an entire group of people based on one incident where the race of the person was irrelevant.
I agree that there is no "good" justification for racism (or sexism, or ageism, or any "ism"). Even with "justification" you're unfairly labeling a group when you should be labeling an individual, or relying on stereotypes that do not apply to a group as a whole.

The thing about stereotyping is that it is usually something negative. ie: Blondes are dumb, black people are criminals, Hispanics are lazy, you could go on and on. (these are just examples for demonstration, and they are well known stereotypes. They're stupid and untrue and I don't believe them, so don't get mad at me). These imply inferiority and are racist.
However, you could also have the "asians are good with technology" stereotype. It's not true, not all asians are techies, and you're still labelling an entire group of people. It's positive, but it's still wrong and discriminatory, because you're applying a person's skin colour to a trait. Whether that trait is positive or negative is irrelevant; you're basing your thoughts on what they must be like on their skin colour.
Just for kicks, a stereotype about white people: "White people are bad dancers". Is it racist? You bet. Once again, you're labeling a group where you should be labeling individuals.

All that said, we rely on stereotypes to some degree, but they shouldn't be based on skin colour. If you meet a banker, you can probably bet he or she is good with numbers. If you meet someone who is a runner, you can bet that he or she probably thinks physical fitness is important. These are all stereotypes that we have to use all the time to make assumptions about what people must be like. They can still backfire, but we all use them, and we need to.
When stereotypes become discriminatory is when they base an idea about a person on something that the person cannot control (age, gender, race, sexual orientation, etc).

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I'm going with the general flow of things on this one. Racist comments are what they are, and regardless of why they're made, it doesn't change the fact that they aren't racist to begin with.

The thing is, violence and crimes don't subject themselves to one group, one skin color, one sex. It's unbiased and neutral. Yet people who've been wronged by a selective individual would sometimes instantly like to believe their entire race or origin is as they are. That's wrong, and as such a form of stereo-typing.

That's basically nothing different that seeing me with long hair, and having a bad memory of some other guy with long hair, believing I'd be no better than they were. It's the same as being mugged by *insert race here* then forever believing that entire skin color is all out to mug you at some point again. It's a stereo-type.

But I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Racist comments aren't made from the color of your skin, or the ethnic group you come from.. it comes from simple-minded people, unwilling to change and co-exsist.

The term "nig***" isn't dangerous when used by Africian Americans. It's a way of communicating. Yet when it's used by almost any other race, or skin color.. it's suddenly an act of war. A hate crime, even.

So the real question is, why can one group say something and yet another say the exact same thing and have it mean something so completely different? It has zero to do with skin color, race, or anything like that. And it all boils down to how you, as a person, preceive the word. If you intentionally want to make it a racial remark, you will. If you wish to look at it as a way of greeting one another, you will.

Racial remarks and situations have nothing to do with any type of ethnic background, so much as you as a person in general, for what YOU, personally, wish to believe. No race did anything different, or wrong, or anything as such.

Selective people have done selective things. Horrible and bad things. But no entire race has done those things back and forth.

 

[Azrael Cain]

Can one be an informed racist? Depends on what s/he is going to be informed with. If it's the propaganda that pollutes the mind about Eugenics and other various bullshit that is incorrect, invalid and has been proven wrong, then yes, one can be an informed racist, it's just that the information is wrong.

But if we're talking about a truly informed person then it is not possible. The more informed one becomes about where humans came from, how we evolved, how we migrated, as well as what binds us together (and there are a lot of factors, it's just that we'd rather ignore them and focus on our differences), the more a person understands that racism is a tool of hatred and all it does is blind and feed a cycle of hatred and violence and ignorance (mind you, different context) and bigotry.

Like I said in the 'Different Kind of Racism' thread, racism is bullshit that has been fed to people continuously. It's easier for people to accept that someone is superior, and it's easier to use skin color as a mark of superiority. It is in no way, shape or form a correct way to determine superiority, and furthermore, the concept of one race being superior to another (or one person being superior or whatever) is ludicrous.

We need to realize that we are all a part of a Little Global Village and that we are to work with one another, regardless of race or sex or beliefs. We cannot survive any longer the way that we've been going. Constantly, people focus on what divides them. Constantly, people strive to point out imperfections and differences -- it has to stop. We cannot fix the problem on the outside, we must fix it on the inside. We must work within ourselves to come to an understanding of the world, of ourselves.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Meh. Um, how to describe this without coming off wrong..I don't see racism as any worse than any other types of prejudices or discrimination, for a start. 'Racism' has caused too much 'Politcally Correct' shit, so that now you can be called racist for saying Mixed Race.

Many groups play on the racism card, I know people who do it. Commonly "Is it because I'm black?" seemed to be a phrase going around not long ago, said by members of lots of other races, as well as black people.

'Informed' racism is misleading, as I think if you were informed about a certain group of people, you wouldn't have racism. I can see from the example Sly gave before why you would hate, or have prejudices against a certain group of people, and I wouldn't call that racism. I think the problem stems from racism is too broad of a term nowadays.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Meh. Um, how to describe this without coming off wrong..I don't see racism as any worse than any other types of prejudices or discrimination, for a start. 'Racism' has caused too much 'Politcally Correct' shit,

I think that being PC is good. It's what people should be. However, being over-PC is just plain irritating. However, I don't see it as a major inhibition, just a minor irritation. Definitely a fair price to pay to prevent racial prejudice. A lot of the things you hear are actually myths, or highly exaggerated. Our good friends at The Daily Mail and The Sun like to spread such half-truths.

so that now you can be called racist for saying Mixed Race.

I think you're exaggerating. Quite frankly, that doesn't make sense on any level. Maybe your ******ed fellow citizens can call you racist - 'cos, y'know, they're ******ed - but I don't think it's quite been through the House of Commons just yet.

Many groups play on the racism card, I know people who do it. Commonly "Is it because I'm black?" seemed to be a phrase going around not long ago, said by members of lots of other races, as well as black people.

I think they're just being ironic. It's the things kids do these days, right? I wear a Mr. Men t-shirt with Mr. Strong on it. Oh, the irony.

I can see from the example Sly gave before why you would hate, or have prejudices against a certain group of people, and I wouldn't call that racism.

But they're still prejudiced against a certain group. Therefore, they're racist. Like, for example, a group of women took a shit on my doorstep. An odd example, I know. If I then discriminated against women, I'd still be sexist - the circumstances are irrelevant.

I think the problem stems from racism is too broad of a term nowadays.

It's actually a relatively concise term. Is that what I mean? Probably. It's just that people are ******ed. Y'know, in the broader sense of the term.

 

[Tastycles]

While any form of racism is deplorable, you have to accept there is a difference between the motives of certain people. For example, someone who calls asian people pakis because they are different is an ignorant racist. Someone who refuses to buy Japanese products because they were tortured by hundreds of different Japanese soldiers for four years of World War II is also a racist, but no matter how much you disagree with their attitude you have to accept that there is reasoning behind their actions.

Generalisation is wrong, but we all do it on a daily basis - e.g. if you see a tramp who is out of it, you assume he is a smackhead because most tramps who are out of it are. There's better examples, but I can't think of any. When it comes to race, most of us don't do this, but some people do. It's wrong, and it is no more justifiable than the people who hate other races for no reason, but it is certainly easier to see where the prisoner of war or rape victim is coming from.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I think that being PC is good. It's what people should be. However, being over-PC is just plain irritating. However, I don't see it as a major inhibition, just a minor irritation. Definitely a fair price to pay to prevent racial prejudice. A lot of the things you hear are actually myths, or highly exaggerated. Our good friends at The Daily Mail and The Sun like to spread such half-truths.

I read both of them . PC is just annoying, because the extent of what PC is, is too 'over-PC' there is so much stuff you can't say, which no one I know takes offence to, but for some reason you're not allowed to say.

I think you're exaggerating. Quite frankly, that doesn't make sense on any level. Maybe your ******ed fellow citizens can call you racist - 'cos, y'know, they're ******ed - but I don't think it's quite been through the House of Commons just yet.

It is ******ed. We got told now anyone of mixed race has to be called 'of dual heritage' because they may find being called Mixed Race offensive. See what I mean about it being stupid?

I think they're just being ironic. It's the things kids do these days, right? I wear a Mr. Men t-shirt with Mr. Strong on it. Oh, the irony.

They're basically just taking the piss of how people can get away with things for fear of the 'racism card' being played.

But they're still prejudiced against a certain group. Therefore, they're racist. Like, for example, a group of women took a shit on my doorstep. An odd example, I know. If I then discriminated against women, I'd still be sexist - the circumstances are irrelevant.

My point being, racism isn't as bad as people like to say it is, it's all the rules regarding racism which make it seem bad e.g. "You can't say mixed race". Prejudicing against anyone is wrong, but everyone does it. I don't see why race is a big deal when the others supposedly aren't.

It's actually a relatively concise term. Is that what I mean? Probably. It's just that people are ******ed. Y'know, in the broader sense of the term.

Not really. The meaning of it isn't as 'concise' as it was. Anything can be seen as 'racist', when it's not.

 

[Iscariot]

Never thought I'd go this way, but I'm with Becky on this one.

The fact is that Racist behaviour is not acceptable on any level, but it comes to something where people have been playing the race card for so long, PC has gone to stupid levels and we end up with shit where we can't say this or do that because we're perpetuating hate. And we're not, we're really not. As Will pointed out, there's so much of "one rule for 'us' and one rule for 'them'" out there that sometimes Racism becomes a crutch in which someone can simply use the colour of their skin as an out orjustification for their predjudice. And not meaning to sound offensive, alot of people of 'duel heritage' know this now, and feel no issue in using it.

I think you can't get an 'informed racist' per say, but you can get someone who is informed and understands that race shouldn't be the issue, it's manipluation of race, on either side, that's the problem.

=I=