Can You Forgive Me?

[LSN80]

[YOUTUBE]Rl7utA0ukIE[/YOUTUBE]

Being a betting man, Id harbor a safe one that all of us have at least one person in our lives that we hold unforgiveness against. The reasons for this are too numerous to count. At its root, unforgiveness is anger and bitterness toward someone for the wrong they've caused you. For most, said anger is due to a serious hurt, whether physical or emotional, such as assault or abuse. And who's to say one reasons isn't better then another? For some, unforgiveness comes from years of physicalo or emotional abuse. For others, it can come for something such as a boss that angers, demands too much, or was just plain a dick. The funny thing is, these people may change and ask for forgiveness, and be truly sincere. But all the change in the world can mke it hard to forget the damage they've caused in the past. Are you able to forgive easily if someone is sincere and shows signs of change, or is it hard to let go?

As I stated before, most religions preach and teach forgiveness at its core. Whether it be as the right thing to do or Jesus forgiving by dying on the cross, religion tells us that forgiveness is a necessity for us to advance or have success in our religion of choice. And forgiveness can be freeing, as religion suggests. For most, holding unforgiveness only holds us back, as the person we won't forgive is unaffected. Easier said then done, but religion teaches that if we forgive, our lives will change for the better. Have you ever found it easier to successfully forgive someone because of religious beliefs?

Finally, I promised Stitch a conclusion to my story as to why my wife turned me down so many times for dates, and it also is the story that sets the stage for the man Ive had to extend forgiveness to. My wife had dated previous a jealous, angry man. He believed he owned her, and created a night of my life Ill never forget. We had been dating about a month, and we went to see White Noise(My wife loves any and all horror movies, even awful ones like this). ANyway, we were watching the movie for about 30 minutes when a strange guy I'd never seen sat down beside me. He introduced himself as Jason, Julie's boyfriend. News to me, as she told me she had been single for 8 months! Anyway, he explained I was out with his girl, and they were leaving together. This man scared me, both the look in his eyes and the pure build of him. But there was no way in hell Julie was leaving with this man, even as he tried to drag her from the theatre. I got in between, and somehow restrained him. I offerred to talk it out with him, and he responded by spitting in my face. Once enough time hd passed and she got away, I let him go once he calmed down. He saw her purse on the floor as we were leaving, rebuked my offer to talk again, and stormed out.

We filed a police report for the stolen items and the harrassment, and I took her home. Her mother and sister came over to her home, and I had no longer sat down to tell her mom what happened that I heard a voice behind me say "I should have done this before", only for everything to go black. I woke up in the hospital, the right side of my face bashed in. Julie told me when I was out from the blow to the back he had punched me 8 times in the right side of the head, causing the doctor to tell me not to look at my face. I truly looked like Two-Face from the Batman movies for about a month. He got a year in jail, and I got a lifetime of headaches and off-and-on seizures.

It took me a year to let go of the anger I felt. I received an invitation to go to his parole hearing, and I wanted to at first. I wanted to tell the board what a callous bastard he was, and give in-depth details of what I couldn't in court. I wanted to see the entire sentence fulfilled, and smirk at him as I testified. For me, life was great. I was engaged to Julie, (who had turned me down many times because of the jealous ex-boyfriend who she felt "trapped by"), finishing my doctorate, and he was rotting in jail. The something hit me- How much better would my life be if I just let it go? If I antagonized him, didn't let it go, and stirred a year old pot, who knows what he would have done? Who knows how long, if not forever, I would have stayed bitter? So I let go of it. It took the realization that my life would only be better if I let things go. I was gaining nothing by hating this man. It wasn't easy, but I declined the parole hearing invitation, and never gave him a long thought again. I moved on, with help from my now wife, and other important people in my life who helped me realize what I needed to do. It was one of the hardest things of my life, but I was able to do it. What/who was the hardest person/situation in which you had to show forgiveness? Why?

The questions are contained within the thread, but all discussion of the topic are welcome and encouraged. Feel free to take this in any direction you choose.

 

[Dave]

When it comes to forgiving people, I guess it comes down to how much I have been hurt by how their actions.

During my life, and yours, you'll obviously have come across people who have wronged you in some way. To be honest though, I don't forgive that easily. That's not because I am cold or pessimistic. It comes down to the fact that I am not someone who feels betrayed all that often. I am very optimistic with everything in life and if you have done something that requires me to forgive you, then you don't deserve to be forgiven at all.

I'll give you an example. I was recently betrayed by one of my friends. I told him a lot of things that meant a lot to me and just like that, he turned on me and told the person involved. I've never shared feelings and thought like that with this particular friend and the betrayal of his actions still sting me to the core. I have not forgiven him for trying to be so self-serving and I possibly won't for a long time.

That being said, I am willing to forgive some things. I have forgiven friends before and I'm sure that I will forgive them again. Depending on the seriousness of what they did, I don't see forgiveness being an issue for me.

 

[hatehabsforever]

As a general rule of thumb, I consider myself a very forgiving person. Over the years, I, like most of us, have had issues with a number of people for a number of reasons. In the vast majority of cases, I have found the ability to forgive, and in most of these scenarios I have usually been able to forget as well. I have resumed normal friendships/relationships with these people on a go forward basis, and have continued to do so to this day.

Having said this, there is a line which can never be crossed and once this imaginary line is crossed, that's it. It's over, there's no forgiveness, in fact there isn't even the potential for forgiveness. I would put about 5 or 6 people in this elite group, all of whom are involved in the same incident. I will never forgive any of these people, nor will I ever even attempt to do so. To me, these people ceased to exist once the incident in question occurred, several years ago.

So I guess for me it all or nothing. Either your wrongdoing was minor, for which I can be very forgiving. Or it was major, and you're out of my life permanently. End of story.

 

[Mustang Sally]

...if you have done something that requires me to forgive you, then you don't deserve to be forgiven at all.

I'm with you. Aside from the "forgiveness is divine" adage that's been passed around for ages, I don't see the necessity for granting it if the person has truly wronged you. I'm more interested in damage control from whatever they did in the first place that they're now asking forgiveness for.

Back when I was an intern at the newspaper I still work, there was a guy who started the same time as me. Instead of doing what interns are supposed to do; that is, work your tail off, this guy was trying to "campaign" his way to promotion. He spent his time trying to butter up his superiors instead of getting his hands dirty with work. He arrived late each day and always tried to sneak out a little early. The work he did was adequate, but he was capable of so much more.

Although he was my competition, I tried to help him by telling him that people in the office knew what he was doing (which was true). I attempted to show him some organizational techniques that would make it easier for him to proceed with his work. There was no need for me to do these things; in fact, you could say there were reasons not to since we were competing for the same job.......but assisting a fellow employee just seemed the right thing to do. Besides, I still figured I was better than him at what we were doing and would eventually get the job, anyway.

He thanked me profusely, yet didn't work any harder. What he did instead was talk behind my back about me and try to discredit me with the bosses and other employees. Finally, he stole files from my computer and tried to pass them off as his own work.

I went immediately to management and exposed him. After all, I can take someone verbally trying to sabotage me, but when I do the actual work and someone tries to steal it, I won't accept it. It turned out they already knew what this guy had been up to. Not that they knew about the theft of my files, but after everything else they had seen with this guy, they weren't surprised and didn't doubt me. They fired him immediately.

Before he left the building, I saw him coming toward me. I was afraid of what he might do, especially given the kind of person he was, right?

Instead, he looked contrite and apologized, asking my forgiveness. Apparently, now that his effort had failed, there was no more need for pretense, and the guilt he felt was the only thing he was left with.

On the basis of that, do you think I forgave him?

Not a chance!

His apology meant nothing; what counted was all the effort he spent trying to boost himself by hurting me. If management had bought his act, I would probably have been eventually fired.....and how much remorse do you think he would have felt?

And even if he did feel bad about what he did, it would be after the damage was already done....and I was on the street.

Forgive him? Fine, if you're the kind of person who wants to do that, that's great.

Not me.....not this time.

 

[LSN80]

I have not forgiven him for trying to be so self-serving and I possibly won't for a long time.

Having said this, there is a line which can never be crossed and once this imaginary line is crossed, that's it. It's over, there's no forgiveness, in fact there isn't even the potential for forgiveness.

His apology meant nothing; what counted was all the effort he spent trying to boost himself by hurting me. If management had bought his act, I would probably have been eventually fired.....and how much remorse do you think he would have felt?

All three of you know me well enough to understand I won't let it go at that!

I'm hearing a common theme here, and that's there a certain line that someone needs to cross where there's a point of no forgiveness. The underlying theme here is betrayal- For Dave, someone betrayed his trust as a roommate and a friend. For Habs, there was a large group of people who wronged him. For Sally, it was a co-worker her took her kindness and went behind her back and tried to figuratively screw her. All instances of intense betrayal, it seems, that would be hard to let go.

WHat is it about betrayal that makes it so hard to forgive? I believe I know all three of you as "e-friends", and consider you wonderful people. A serious line would have to have been crossed to bring each of you to the point where forgiveness isn't an option. My question is this: Is there a line you draw universally where forgiveness isn't an option, or is it a case by case basis?

One of the things Ive always believed of myself is in my unwavering capacity to forgive. But damn, I don't know what I would do in any of your situations! I do know Ive been in similar ones- and Ive forgiven, so I thought. However, after reading your posts, Ive realized my forgiveness has come with a huge catch. In each situation of betrayal, Ive never been able to bring myself to trust the person or resume the relationship I once had with the person. And I never will. I may care for them as people, but Ill never trust them again. Is it possible I've fooled myself that Ive truly forgiven them? Is there a part of me that's still angry/bitter?

Betrayal is an interesting theme. It seems to be the universal theme for not letting go. Perhaps we have let go, and don't give said betrayer a second thought. But I wonder, what would the first encounter with the person who betrayed you look like? I'm not sure I can give a great answer of forgiveness and understanding, as Id likely be cold and distant. Maybe that's just the normal, human reaction.

Id love to hear back from the three of you on this, and welcome anyone else to enter the discussion! Obviously this has gone in a secondary, incredibly important direction regarding betrayal in the theme of forgiveness. I know Ive changed the theme of the thread somewhat, so....

[YOUTUBE]a0W2RH94Ekk[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Dave]

I don't think anyone should be so blind and ignorant to throw a blanket over the issue of betrayal and say "this is what I think is acceptable and this is what I think is unacceptable". My thinking is because betrayal doesn't happen on it's own. I wouldn't like to think that I am friends with people that would betray me for no reason. In my experience, it is usually due to a number of circumstances and sometimes that helps to understand why they have acted in the manner that they have.

For example, in the issue I raised in my earlier post, the only reason that I was betrayed is because of something I said to my friend that concerned him indirectly. Without going into too many boring details, he immediately broke my trust and told someone I care about deeply all of the details of my psychology and the intimate thoughts I have been thinking. For me, there is a reason that he did that. But it doesn't make it any easier to forgive. There is a difference between forgiving someone and understanding why they did it and moving on. Perhaps that is the feeling of "forgiveness" that you feel, LSN?

Personally, I think it comes down to the individual and what their idea of forgiveness is. My idea would be accepting what has happened and the reasons that someone needs that forgiveness. To going back to a state where the situation doesn't have a bearing on the way you interact or act around each other. Only when I feel like that has happened, then I feel as though I have forgiven someone and no sooner.

BTW, LSN! In case you didn't get my rep comment earlier, I'd like a PM from you soon, man.

 

[Dagger Dias]

There is no universal answer for what can or cannot be forgiven. I take it case by case for that reason. Religious beliefs play a large role in my actions when it comes to forgiving. I strive to do what is right and set a good example. More often than not, one must forgive those who treated you wrongly. Some instances I would have NEVER forgiven the individual involved had it not been for my religious beliefs.


The hardest instance of forgiving someone is still ongoing for me. A former friend of mine betrayed me when my mother in law came to visit my wife this summer. He snuck off behind our backs to try to begin a relationship with her knowing she is still married. He ended up convincing her to abandon her family back in California by running off with him out of state. I am disappointed in her but was able to forgive her. Him on the other hand, he threw away a 12+ year friendship with me with his betrayal. This guy single handedly destroyed my wife's side of the family. I have only shared part of the story and would rather not go into further details. I might never forgive him. My religious beliefs would see me forgive him, in time, but what he did was nearly unforgivable. That is by far the hardest incident I have ever needed to forgive.

 

[hatehabsforever]

All three of you know me well enough to understand I won't let it go at that!

I'm hearing a common theme here, and that's there a certain line that someone needs to cross where there's a point of no forgiveness. The underlying theme here is betrayal- For Dave, someone betrayed his trust as a roommate and a friend. For Habs, there was a large group of people who wronged him. For Sally, it was a co-worker her took her kindness and went behind her back and tried to figuratively screw her. All instances of intense betrayal, it seems, that would be hard to let go.

WHat is it about betrayal that makes it so hard to forgive? I believe I know all three of you as "e-friends", and consider you wonderful people. A serious line would have to have been crossed to bring each of you to the point where forgiveness isn't an option. My question is this: Is there a line you draw universally where forgiveness isn't an option, or is it a case by case basis?

One of the things Ive always believed of myself is in my unwavering capacity to forgive. But damn, I don't know what I would do in any of your situations! I do know Ive been in similar ones- and Ive forgiven, so I thought. However, after reading your posts, Ive realized my forgiveness has come with a huge catch. In each situation of betrayal, Ive never been able to bring myself to trust the person or resume the relationship I once had with the person. And I never will. I may care for them as people, but Ill never trust them again. Is it possible I've fooled myself that Ive truly forgiven them? Is there a part of me that's still angry/bitter?

Betrayal is an interesting theme. It seems to be the universal theme for not letting go. Perhaps we have let go, and don't give said betrayer a second thought. But I wonder, what would the first encounter with the person who betrayed you look like? I'm not sure I can give a great answer of forgiveness and understanding, as Id likely be cold and distant. Maybe that's just the normal, human reaction.

Id love to hear back from the three of you on this, and welcome anyone else to enter the discussion! Obviously this has gone in a secondary, incredibly important direction regarding betrayal in the theme of forgiveness. I know Ive changed the theme of the thread somewhat, so....

The thing is with me, it really isn't such a large group of people, so much as it is one person, and the family and friends and supposed co-friends of hers that crossed the line beyond which there could never be true forgiveness. The thing is, as a general rule of thumb, I am a huge proponent of forgiveness, for religious reasons as well as moral and mental health reasons. I am not prepared to discuss the specifics, but suffice it to say that I can absolutely guarantee you that if you were standing in my shoes, you would be unable to forgive either. Because as much as I am a believer in forgiveness, I am vehemently opposed to hypocrisy. I have no interest in false forgiveness. It has to be genuine or it means nothing. I don't think I would be able to forgive in my scenario. Frankly, I don't think I even want to. And while I consider myself a very mentally and psychologically strong person, I truly don't believe I'm a big enough or strong enough of a man to forgive here.

Forgiveness, and where you draw the line, is definitely on a case by case basis. As I said earlier, I would have a wide range of tolerance for what I could truly forgive, but then there's that line which once crossed, it's over.
I refuse to fool myself into false forgiveness. I refuse to even try. And if forced into a confrontation with those who cross the line, I know exactly how things would be. It would be a decade ago, all over again, and I'm never going back there.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Generally, I can forgive most things. People are fallible and prone to mistakes. Where I hit the point of no return is the fact that there are evil people in this world who really have no redeemable features.

About half a year ago a close family member was assaulted leading to a comma, then permanent brain damage and partial paralysis. As a domino effect of this a further family member has suffered mental anguish and is now being treated in hospital for depression. Now, I guess you think I despise the guy who committed this assault? Strangely no, the person I despise is the coward who told him to do it and who is walking around a free man. Whilst Northern Ireland is now a relatively safe place there are still pillocks hiding under the banners of 'disbanded' organisations who have lackeys who do stuff to impress them, but accept no responsibility when the lackey comes a cropper. These are the type of characters that I could never forgive, telling someone to commit physical harm to another person just because it makes you out to be a 'big man' is just indefensible.

 

[Mustang Sally]

People are fallible and prone to mistakes.

This gets into an area we addressed a few months ago: the definition of "mistake."

According to the dictionary, a mistake is doing something wrong but not knowing it was wrong. That's a mistake......and if someone hurts you by their actions but didn't realize they were doing the wrong thing, or that doing it would hurt you, then forgiving them shouldn't be a problem.

However, in the example I used earlier in this topic, a fellow employee stole files from my computer and tried to pass them off as his own. After he was caught (and fired), he came to me, apologizing and claiming he made a mistake.

But I say.....no. What he did was intentionally steal my work for his own gain.....and claim credit for it. Sorry, folks, but that's not a mistake. It was a deliberate misdeed that he performed with a goal in mind.....and he was hoping to get away with it without being detected. You can handle that sort of betrayal however you want, but in my world, I don't forgive the guy.

Whether to forgive or not depends on too many factors to issue a blanket policy here. Always, it will depend on how close the person (the potential "forgivee") is to you...... how serious the betrayal was......and a hundred other factors that make each instance subject to it's own questions and solutions.

To forgive may be divine....... but sometimes it's wrong, stupid, impractical, unadvisable.......or impossible.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

This gets into an area we addressed a few months ago: the definition of "mistake."

According to the dictionary, a mistake is doing something wrong but not knowing it was wrong. That's a mistake......and if someone hurts you by their actions but didn't realize they were doing the wrong thing, or that doing it would hurt you, then forgiving them shouldn't be a problem.

However, in the example I used earlier in this topic, a fellow employee stole files from my computer and tried to pass them off as his own. After he was caught (and fired), he came to me, apologizing and claiming he made a mistake.

But I say.....no. What he did was intentionally steal my work for his own gain.....and claim credit for it. Sorry, folks, but that's not a mistake. It was a deliberate misdeed that he performed with a goal in mind.....and he was hoping to get away with it without being detected. You can handle that sort of betrayal however you want, but in my world, I don't forgive the guy.

Whether to forgive or not depends on too many factors to issue a blanket policy here. Always, it will depend on how close the person (the potential "forgivee") is to you...... how serious the betrayal was......and a hundred other factors that make each instance subject to it's own questions and solutions.

To forgive may be divine....... but sometimes it's wrong, stupid, impractical, unadvisable.......or impossible.

I'm sorry if you somehow read my post as an attack on you, it was never intended as such.

Having said that, I have been in the same circumstances as you described before and to be honest, I've shrugged and got on with my life - it hasn't changed who I am or who anyone I care for is. If someone is... lacking in certain moralistic values then they have to live with it and I do have belief in karma. Holding a grudge or being unforgiving isn't me, so I do have a strong personal forgiveness ability (although there are many people I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them). I'm 37 years of age and, up to 6 months ago, I can honestly say that I hated no person directly. As I stated earlier that figure is now one and this adds to the, already extensive, list of why I despise this individual as hate had never been a part of my makeup.