Can There Be A New Dominant Face of the Company Without Vince Putting Him Over?

[RicoLen]

Simple question, difficult to answer.

Can there be a new dominant face of the company without Vince putting him over?

Look at the past since the days of Hulk Hogan's passing into WCW. Who have we had as the face of the company? Bret Hart, HBK, SCSA, The Rock, HHH, & Cena.

Who has feuded with Vince McMahon? Everyone but Cena. Who are the most legit faces of the company in that list? Everyone but Cena seems to be the popular answer.

Now, let's go back to the leadup to Money in the Bank this past summer. Remember Vince & Cena starting to get into it? What happened after their brief altercation? Everyone thought Cena was going to get fired by Vince, and what was the general reaction of the fans? "I have to give Cena credit, he had a good match, and did a great job in his feud with CM Punk."

But was it really his feud with CM Punk that had everyone suddenly going soft on the guy? Or was it the fact that now he's paired up, at least on some level, against Vince McMahon?

Now, setting aside the issues with Cena. Bret screwed Bret. That's the most famous line regarding the Montreal Screw Job. Who coined it? Vince. Who is the popular choice for Austin's best rivalry? The Rock is close, but even so, more people realize it was his feud against Vince. The Rock? Vince. How 'bout Bret Hart's recent return in 2010? He buried the hatchet with HBK night one, but went on to fight Vince. Hulk Hogan during his last run in the WWE? That was one of the hottest feuds in the WWE at that time.

You're talking about some of the biggest names in pro-wrestling history, and a lot of these guys get talked about more than guys like Andre the Giant, Randy Savage, Ultimate Warrior, certainly Kevin Nash, and why?

Honestly? IMO it's because of their feud with Vince McMahon.

(Rhetorical) Raise of hands, how many people would have been interested in a Y2K return of The Ultimate Warrior if they knew he was going to gun straight for Vince McMahon? How many people would have liked to have seen Kevin Nash, after his return with the nWo in the WWE turn on and then begin feuding with Vince McMahon?

OK, so I don't expect those narrow minded to agree that those feuds would be interesting, but I think they could have been legendary.

So let's go back to Cena again. Why is he hated? ... Does "he's a product of the system" or "because he's shoved down our throats" or "because Vince makes him unbeatable" come to anyone's mind? Uh-huh. Subconsciously people know Cena is Vince McMahon's darling superstar, and they hate it.

Just think about what would happen if Cena & Vince were to really get into it? Maybe that feud wouldn't win YOU over, but do you think it would win a lot of others over? Do you think it'd have the potential to be Cena's best feud in his career? Cause I do.

Let's talk about CM Punk. CM Punk, starting with his shoot heard round the world, picked a fight with Vince and his whole family didn't he? And to begin with it looked like Vince was really taking it personally and was going to go on the attack against CM Punk didn't it? Now, there's a lot of people that have lost interest in CM Punk because they feel like the most compelling part of his storyline has been dropped, and that he's been turned into another cookiecutter face, instead of a badass heel. Why?

Again, we hit upon Vince McMahon.

At this point, I'm of the opinion that I really don't see how someone is going to get instantly and sensationally over in the WWE unless they feud with Vince McMahon, and make a fool of him and earn his undying hatred.

But what do you guys think? I COULD just be seeing a link that doesn't exist I suppose. I'm not 100% on this opinion I have yet. But it sound pretty solid to me.

Can there be a new dominant face of the company without Vince putting him over?

 

[Brahma Bull]

Bret did it. It didnt get him over. He was already leaving when Vince screwed him. He had to go against mr mcmahon when he returned because there was bad blood, but he was already over regardless. I dont know when you think people went soft on cena. I still hated him, even though he was going against vince. And the rock got over on his own. Sure he feuded with mr mcmahon, but so did everyone else. The rock got over without having to feud with him, and when people remember the rock's great rivalries, mr mcmahon is somewhere below kurt angle and above mr ass. HBK was also over without mr mcmahon. sure he feuded with him, but that was way after hbk was already the man. the only guy i will give you is scsa, thats it. they have all wrestled jericho as well, so this thread is as legit as you have to feud with jericho to be the new dominate face. Sorry man, I think this thread has no validity.

 

[Junkfood34]

i totally agree with you...but not feuding with vince has worked as well the most notable example is Rey Mysterio and plz dont call him a mid carder hes won world titles which isnt in the definition of a mid carder and sure hes like gone from main eventer to midcarder many times but he never ever feuded with vince. Another example would be Jeff Hardy. He didnt interact with vince most of the time (only time ive seen jeff talk to vince was when they were running the illigitemet son thing and jeff was told he wasnt the son...his reaction was halarious) but he still got put over towards the end of his wwe angle. also feuding with vince doesnt always get the job done...i am of course talking about bobby lashley and the whole battle of the billion aires thing with donald trump. i mean sure he got into a few wwe championship matches with cena but then.....gone.....nothing he wasnt that much over, plus look at sheamus.....when has he even looked at vince and yet hes like the new up and comming irish version batista....all they gotta do is give him like a rumble victory, a good feud with a top heel and bam instant batista version 2.0....and now for batista himself.....im not sure if he feuded with vince but he sure as hell got himself over along with hhh, taker, flair and even cena

inconclusion yes ur right on the fact that the best, easiest and most self profitting way to make it inthe business is to feud with vince....but it is not the only way to get put over

 

[RicoLen]

Bret did it. It didnt get him over. He was already leaving when Vince screwed him. He had to go against mr mcmahon when he returned because there was bad blood, but he was already over regardless.

OK. I'll give you that Bret was on his way out. But was that screw job not one of the most talked about events in pro-wrestling history? And why?

And anyways, Bret was the hottest topic in pro-wrestling after the screw job. It's not his fault WCW dropped the ball with him.

I dont know when you think people went soft on cena. I still hated him, even though he was going against vince.

You did (still hate him). Did you pay attention to the talk from others? After money in the bank, all the sudden there was a brief but noticeable outcry of "Wow, Cena's not looking so bad all the sudden." It wasn't loud, and it didn't last long, but it was there, and I at least noticed.

And the rock got over on his own. Sure he feuded with mr mcmahon, but so did everyone else.

And this happened when? During the attitude era? When everyone was awesome and WWE TV has never been better? hmmm.

they have all wrestled jericho as well, so this thread is as legit as you have to feud with jericho to be the new dominate face. Sorry man, I think this thread has no validity.

Hey, I don't mind you disagreeing. You bring up good points too. But this is a legit thread.

So far you've said nothing that concretely points to Vince McMahon not being the best way to solidify a new dominant face. We've had other faces, but in the end, who really considers them huge stars unless they feuded with Vince?

OK I'll give you, yeah there can being a new dominant face of the company without Vince, eventually.

Let's tweak the original question some then. It's my thread, I can do that if I want. heheh

Don't you think that a feud with Vince would probably be the quickest and most effective way to solidify a new DOMINANT face of the company?

@Junkfood34
I wouldn't consider any of the guys you mentioned a 'dominant' face of the company. Not Mysterio, not Hardy, not even Batista. Batista may have momentarily been on par with Cena, same with Orton, but at the end of the day who's the biggest and most dominant of the 3? Cena, and he's been under fire for ages now as having nothing on The Rock & Austin.

Taker is actually a very good example though, I'll give you that. HHH feuded with Vince, Flair was huge starting back in the 80's, he pre-dates this discussion.

I get though that he's not the only way to get over as a dominant face of the company, but man, he just about is.

I mean, even CM Punk, quick as it was got put over and made the internet darling and the guy who the attitude era fans could latch on to, even though there are still a lot of attitude era fans that did not, he did grab a lot of them.

 

[Brahma Bull]

Once you tweaked it, i completely agree. Vince can either make people completely hate a wrestler if he sides with vince, or love a wrestler if he challenges vince. I think that Vince's character is what made the attitude era so epic. So yes, i agree now. lol

 

[RicoLen]

Heheh, fair enough. You were right, obviously people will get over again... someday.

In the meantime however... why ISN'T Vince on TV anymore? I guess this is a closed question, and should be in the spam section, so I'll probably be penalized for asking this, BUT is he just too old and tired and doesn't have the energy anymore?

If that's the case however, why isn't someone getting set up to be the new Vince character?

Say Michael Cole (who says he'll quit or whatever if he doesn't beat JR) became the successor to Laurinaitis as the Raw GM. Might they be able to groom Cole to fill the character role Vince played in the past?

 

[Headman]

I would say feuding with a great heel is your best bet to get yourself over, and Vince just happens to be a great heel. I think Cena can credit JBL and Triple H, both great heels for getting him over as a top star. More so Triple H, because I honestly thought the WWE was going to pull the plug on him at Wrestlemania 22. Cena making Triple H tap was the last thing I thought would happen and in my mind atleast solidified Cena as the superman (For a lack of a better term) he's become. So yeah, a feud with Vince will help but I believe they can do the same with another heel who gets alot of heat.

 

[RicoLen]

Well you know what's funny about that. I've been thinking since starting this thread, that lately Vince really isn't a heel. Oh sure he plays the role magnificently, but I think the time is long gone that people consider Vince a heel. I think if he wanted, he would be the most over face in the company.

Lauriniatis & Cole are probably the two most qualified for bringing the hate/heat and helping get over dominant faces, but Cole would really have to be in a much bigger place of power than he is right now. John is right where he needs to be, but he needs to up the douchebag antics somehow without going over the top. I think that's the best thing about him is that he's not over the top and very believable, so much so that people bag on him for having no personality. I think that could be turned into one of his strengths, myself.

 

[themiketryon]

I would have to say that most faces have/are created by the fans. While I suppose it's Vince or creative who give the nod to who is a face/heel, I still think the fans are going to cheer for who they want. With that, there is a lot that falls on the superstar to "get over" as well, but ultimately, it's us the fans who make or break a face.

 

[RicoLen]

I would have to say that most faces have/are created by the fans. While I suppose it's Vince or creative who give the nod to who is a face/heel, I still think the fans are going to cheer for who they want. With that, there is a lot that falls on the superstar to "get over" as well, but ultimately, it's us the fans who make or break a face.

I suppose that probably is true today... kind of. There are exceptions (Hollywood Rock by his own choice, Ted DiBiase Sr. was always a heel to my knowledge, same with Jesse Ventura). But let's face it, at the end of the day any crowd of people, no matter who they are, are sheep. If Vince wants you to hate someone he's got enough psychological know-how to make you hate them, or visa-versa.

We, the people of the wrestling fan community, don't know WTF we want. Get 5 members of the IWC together in a room and ask them the question of what they want to see most in pro-wrestling, and they'll give you 8 different opinions.

What's more is that I don't think there's enough teamwork lately in the WWE. Vince always was willing to look like the bad guy, whether he looked like an asshole or a complete idiot, or somewhere in between he was OK with making himself look bad as long as it got someone else over.

There's just not enough give and take between heels & faces these days. Faces just don't get mic time unless they're in it for one of the top titles. I know absolutely jack s**t about Evan Bourne & Kofi Kingston and why we as fans are supposed to buy into the idea that they're a worthy tag team of holding the championship belts. What happened to ... huh see I can't even think of his name off the top of my head anymore, I could look it up but what's the point? I prove it better by just saying he's the guy that The Miz was mentoring for so long but as dropped out of the scene for so long I can't remember his name anymore. - Just looked it up, it's Alex Riley, the most memorable thing about him was his music. - Why wasn't he being used in a long feud with Dolph Ziggler at the same time that whole thing with Jack Swagger & Vickie was going down? There's no reason he couldn't have been weaved into that story to keep him semi-relevant and show that Ziggler could beat a contender like Riley in a longstanding feud, at least until Mason Ryan turned face.

Who is supposed to put over the faces these days? The heels are supposed to make themselves look bad so that faces look 'good'. The faces are supposed to be the ones that get cheered, not because they're smiley happy people, that's lame, but because they're awesome. Aside from just a couple of faces, I don't know of any that fit that bill. As far as I'm concerned that's a matter of the heels & faces not doing enough give & take in the ring and on the mic to make the other guy look good. The heels make themselves look good, the faces look like cookie cutter american heroes from the 1950's. Even Punk is starting to get that stench of cookie cutter face on him.

Faces don't have to be Steve Austin or The Rock to get over, but they can't be friggin *****es either. You CAN in fact be edgy, and likable, and a good guy all at the same time, The Rock has proved that, hell The Hitman proved that. Those two were faces that you knew without a shadow of a doubt that they were good guys, they were completely likable, and still had enough edge that you could cheer for them in a fight against anyone.

The thing that Vince really brings to the table that, atm, only Lauriniatis & HHH bring to the table right now is that whoever they feud against automatically has the ability to draw in those fans who have a problem with authority. Vince was easily hateable so it just worked that much more.

IMO They should work that angle more, at least until they get a few more faces really well established with a solid fanbase, and it should always be the case that heels & faces need to work on their give & take to make each other look good, not only in the ring but as a television character as well.