Calgary Region, Third Round: Ultimate Submission: (3) Edge vs. (6) Eddie Guerrero

[klunderbunker]

The following contest is a third round match in the Calgary Region.

This match takes place in the Saddledome in Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

It is an Ultimate Submission match.

Rules: This contest has a 30 minute time limit and the most submission victories wins. There are no pinfalls.

#3 Edge

Vs.

#6 Eddie Guerrero

This contest is one fall with a 30 minute time limit. The match will take place in a 16 x 16 ring with no ramp leading to it. Any traditional managers for either competitor will be allowed at ringside.

As for voting, vote for who you think would win this match based on the criteria you choose. Some suggestions would be (not limited to): in ring ability, overall skill, their level of influence at the highest point in their career, ability to connect with the crowd, experience in major matches or simply personal preference etc.

The most votes in the voting period wins and in the case of a tie, the most written votes wins. There is one written vote per user, meaning if a poster make ten posts saying Bret should win that will count as a single vote. In the event of a second tie, both men are ELIMINATED, no questions asked. Only winners advance.

Voting will open in 48 hours and will be open for five days and all posts must be non-spam. You may use the 48 hours to present your cases as to why either competitor should/should not win.​

 

[JXL]

The Lasso from El Paso vs. The Edgucator or Sharpshooter

Edge can wear you down with his offense, and he has more of a variety of submissions than many has seen. I liked his Edgucator submission cause it reminds me of a combination of the Cloverleaf/Body Stretch type. Eddie knows more of the luchador submissions, and his Lasso from El Paso is a dangerous hold. Despite this is a gimmick match, my vote goes to Edge, as he has more of the arsenal keep you grounded, then lock in either the Edgucator or the Sharpshooter.

My vote: Edge.

 

[Tastycles]

An interesting one this. Both men have submission moves in their arsenals, but neither are particularly focussed on that aspect. Neither are either of them regarded particularly for their resiliance. As a result I can't see the stipulation giving either man a strong advantage. So, with that in mind, I'm going to pick the man who has had the better career, and that is undoubtedly Edge.

Guerrero was in the right place at the right time to win the title, with two victories of note, but apart from that, he was mostly consigned to the midcard. Edge has overcome some pretty horrendous injuries to make his way into the main event, where he has beaten some of the best wrestlers of the last 10 years fairly consistency. He'd win this one I think.

 

[JGlass]

Love both these wrestlers, but my vote goes to Edge. Both men have finishers and signature submissions that are attacks on the torso, but Edge holds the advantage of his moves being easier to hit.

Eddie's Three Amigos is a difficult move to hit if the opponent is able to fight back in anyway at all, and he pretty much has to make sure that the opponent is in no condition to fight back when he's setting these three vertical suplexes up. The Frog Splash would be an extremely effective move for setting up the Lasso from El Paso, but it's a move where the opponent will be able to see what's coming and counter if they have any ability to fight left in them. A wrestler as resilient and crafty as Edge could certainly avoid a Frog Splash.

Edge's Spear can come out of nowhere. Sometimes he sets it up, but we've seen him hit it out of nowhere plenty of times. A high impact move like the Spear will knock the wind out of his opponent long enough for him to be able to lock on the Edgeucator or Sharpshooter and force his opponent to tap just so they can catch a desperately needed breath.

Eddie holds the edge in the technical and high flying departments, but I don't think high flying ability will help Eddie in this match. The technical ability is certainly a great strength to have, but it's not like Edge is The Great Khali here. Eddie is an extremely gifted technical wrestler, but if Eddie is an 8, Edge is a 6.5.

Edge holds the advantage in strength and lethality, his moves are powerful and he doesn't stop until his opponent is in no condition to fight back. Eddie doesn't have the mean streak Edge does, nor is he as evil. Eddie had an evil side to him during his heel days in WCW, but it doesn't even come close to some of the shit Edge has done over the past couple of years.

Both men are crafty, and they might be two of the best cheaters since Ric Flair. Eddie is not afraid to throw a foreign object into the ring and find a way to use it without alerting the ref, and Edge isn't afraid of "accidentally" knocking the ref out and then using that object to beat the living hell out of his opponent. Neither man can really say they are more wily than the other.

In the end, I give this to Edge. I think both men manage to capitalize with a submission within the first 15 minutes. At about 25 minutes, Eddie attempts a Frog Splash that Edge avoids by getting his knees up. Edge capitalizes on Eddie's weakened core by spearing him and locking on the Sharpshooter, forcing Eddie to tap with two minutes left. Edge gets up and starts to celebrate, but Eddie gets up, turns Edge around and kicks him in the gut and hits the three amigos. With 20 seconds left, Eddie attempts to lock on the Lasso. With 12 seconds left, Eddie locks it on. Edge screams and screams in agony, and just after the clock hits 0, he taps. The ref says the tap was after the final buzzer, and Edge wins and moves on to round 4.

 

[El Rev sXe]

I've got to go against the current here and vote for Eddie.

It's true, both man have submissions on their wrestling repertoires but they aren't as frequents as the spear or the frog splash are. Laso from El Paso and edgecator (or sharpshooter) are very similar, painful and difficult to break. However I give Eddie the credit based on two factors: the gory special, and the fact he is a better technician.

The Gory special is a move made famous by his father, it has become one of the moves that defines the legacy of the Guerrero family. Submission wise, it's a pretty hard move to execute, however once it is execute I think it is difficult to break it. How the hell are you going to break it if your arms and legs are trapped? On the other hand I don't think that I have seen someone submit to this move, at least not in a big match.

Eddie is a better technician, he has better skills with the mat and for my logic, he knows better some simple/basic/common submission moves. I'm not a master with the names, but if you have seen Eddie in ECW, WWE and Japan you know how good is he. For me the gimmick match benefits in this case Eddie.

Eddie wins

 

[PsychoBlack]

Eddie wins this. He knows how to focus his attack on one part of the body to better weaken it for the submission. Edge is a great worker but does not have the submission prowess or the patience to make Eddie tap

 

[ABMorales787]

This would be Eddie's bread and butter versus Edge. Watch a Lucha Libre match. Most matches end with improvised submission moves. This is the field Eddie was raised on and the style he wrestled with for most of his life. Not just his El Paso maneuver, but the Gory Special, his grandfathers Camel Clutch, and whatever else he can come up with.

While Edge may be Canadian and you know... Has the Sharpshooter etched into his genetics. But that's about it. He's shown it. He's a showman in the ring. Not a technician. He may have two submission moves as he brought back his Edgecator (and as usual, Cole's never seen it) recently. But that really can't match the technical ability of Eddie.

 

[Alastor]

Has Edge ever won via submission on a regular basis before? Other than being given the Edgecator so that he can have a submission move because he is Canadian, I don't think he has ever tried to used submissions to win a match. Eddie has a whole arsenal of submission moves to use. The Lasso from El Paso is the most familiar but as mentioned he has much more submission moves due to his Lucha Libre style. In a ultimate submission match, improvised submission moves can be a key deciding factor and Eddie is able to pull off more improvised moves compared to Edge as he is a better technician.

 

[Stormtrooper]

Has Edge ever won via submission on a regular basis before? Other than being given the Edgecator so that he can have a submission move because he is Canadian, I don't think he has ever tried to used submissions to win a match.

You mean aside from last weeks Smackdown, where Edge used the Edgucator to defeat Drew McIntyre?

Eddie has a whole arsenal of submission moves to use. The Lasso from El Paso is the most familiar but as mentioned he has much more submission moves due to his Lucha Libre style. In a ultimate submission match, improvised submission moves can be a key deciding factor and Eddie is able to pull off more improvised moves compared to Edge as he is a better technician.

Last time I checked this isn't a "how many submissions can you lock on your opponent" match. This is an Ultimate Submission match. Eddie can lock on submission attempts all he wants, but that doesn't mean Edge is gonna submit to all of them.

This is a real close match, one that can go either way. I personally chose Edge since Edge has had an exponentially bigger career (more championships, more world championships, more notoriety, MUCH longer reign on top, etc), and because I think he will wear down Eddie enough to where he'll be able to lock in whatever submission he wants (you don't have to be a submission wrestler to be able to lock in a submission). I love Eddie, but Edge takes this.

 

[Megatron]

This is the first match for Eddie where I'm not 100% certain he'll earn the victory, so I'll state my case for him.

1. The style fits Eddie more then Edge. Eddie is a skilled technician. He could go hold for hold with some of the greatest technical wrestlers ever in Dean Malenko, Chris Benoit, etc. (including beating them many times). Eddie has a few submissions that he can go to (Lasso from El Paso, Gory Special, STF, and figure four). Edge, meanwhile, isn't much of a technical wrestler, certainly not the calibre of Eddie. He's a showman and will try for the big moves to knock Eddie down, while Eddie will wear down Edge with attacks that will set up for any of the three submissions.

2. Edge is quite overrated in terms of his accomplishments. Edge is an 11 time champion. While that looks impressive, when you disect into it, it's really not. While I don't wanna review over every title reign, the first he stole from Cena (and proceeded to lose 3 weeks later). His second he held over Summerslam (where he won by a cheap shot) and then lost it in a TLC at Unforgiven. Most of his reigns have been short in days like the first two. In fact, he's had exactly 1 reign over 100 days (at 105 from Armageddon 07 to Wrestlemania 24) and has held the title 11 times for 512 days - a whopping average of 46 days per reign. Not exactly impressive.

Not only that, but in his 4 WWE Championship reigns, he's held the title for exactly 6 - that's right, 6 - more days then Eddie's ONE reign in 2004. The amount of times Edge is named champion should actually be held against him, because it shows he a) can't hold onto the title very long and b) isn't a dominant champion. He's actually a very poor champion. Anyone using his 11 titles to 1 title by Eddie should look a little bit deeper into those numbers then just the number of reigns.

3. Edge is a walking injury. Edge has had many major injuries throughout his career. First it was his neck injury in 2003, then it was two torn pectoral muscles, first in 05, then in 07, and then a torn achilles in 09. 4 major injuries throughout the entire body. And guess what, the Laso from El Paso attacks the back, figure four the legs, and the Gory Special the back. Eddie, who is a smart wrestler, would realize he could have two weak areas that he could attack. I'd guess he'd go for the back, since he has a few different submissions he can put on Edge.

So you have the Laso from El Paso and the Gory Special that he can use to make Edge tap. Seeing as how this is only 30 minutes, you probably won't see more then 3 or 4 submissions. Not only could he use those two submissions to make Edge quit, but he could use the Frog Splash to hurt Edge's back even more (since he's done it onto guys' backs before). To add with his big moves, Eddie has suplexes that attack the back, backbreakers, and powerbombs that he could use to weaken Edge's back.

The bottom line is: Eddie's technical ability and wide variety of moves that he can use to hurt Edge's back gives him at least a 2-1 victory, possibly more if he's on top early. Edge is not nearly the submission wrestler, nor technical genius, that Eddie was, and, I feel, is quite overrated simply because he's billed as an 11 time champion when you could condense that into 4 reigns and they still would only be in decent length (120ish days each). Edge couldn't chain wrestle with Eddie, and would probably be feeling the pains halfway through before giving up at least once or twice.

Viva La Raza, baby.

 

[#hamler]

I was afraid it would come to this. Two of my personal favorite wrestlers and to be honest, I'm fine with whoever wins this round. While Eddie Guerrero is a phenomenal technician, my vote simply goes to Edge, because he is the better man. Eddie was a career mid carder. He didn't finally achieve the main event status until Smackdown ran out of big names in their main event. Edge on the other hand, has headlined numerous PPVs with huge fuckin names. John Cena, Triple H, Jeff Hardy, Undertaker and the list goes on. How overrated some may think Edge is cannot take away from that amount. Edge is better on a main event level, hence, why he's been there so long. Besides, this match doesn't take place in Mexico or even Texas. It takes place in Canada- Edge country. And whenever Edge comes to Canada, the people always back him up. I see a pretty much even match throughout, but Edge locking in the Edgucator in the closing seconds to get the last submission before the time expires.

 

[Megatron]

I was afraid it would come to this. Two of my personal favorite wrestlers and to be honest, I'm fine with whoever wins this round. While Eddie Guerrero is a phenomenal technician, my vote simply goes to Edge, because he is the better man. Eddie was a career mid carder. He didn't finally achieve the main event status until Smackdown ran out of big names in their main event. Edge on the other hand, has headlined numerous PPVs with huge fuckin names. John Cena, Triple H, Jeff Hardy, Undertaker and the list goes on. How overrated some may think Edge is cannot take away from that amount. Edge is better on a main event level, hence, why he's been there so long. Besides, this match doesn't take place in Mexico or even Texas. It takes place in Canada- Edge country. And whenever Edge comes to Canada, the people always back him up. I see a pretty much even match throughout, but Edge locking in the Edgucator in the closing seconds to get the last submission before the time expires.

So pretty much your entire argument here is that since Edge is a bigger name, he should win? If that's the case, why isn't it always Stone Cold vs. Hogan in the final? Because gimmick matches give lower seeded guys a chance to win. Eddie is the technical genius here, not Edge. Besides, this is the basis of Edge's main event run in the WWE:

-Steal the title from face champion
-Brag for 3-4 weeks how he's the Rated-R superstar and that his opponent doesn't have a chance

And then two different trails:
-Have screwy win to retain title (DQ, outside interference)
-Lose the title.

Edge is a weak main eventer, while Eddie has held wins against Angle, Lesnar, JBL, Mysterio, and Benoit (some of the top wrestlers at that time) and really was a solid upper midcarder/main eventer near the end of his career (and would've won the title again had he not died).

Another thing, the venue shouldn't matter. Remember Unforgiven 06, TLC match versus Cena? it's held in his own HOMETOWN, in his own MATCH, and he LOST. Edge isn't clutch, and he doesn't have close to the amount of technical ability of Eddie to win this match.

If the only reason people are voting Edge is because Eddie's a 'career midcarder' just shouldn't vote. No offense, but this career midcarder has more technical ability in one nut then Edge has in his entire body, and would really benefit from this stipulation.

 

[#hamler]

So pretty much your entire argument here is that since Edge is a bigger name, he should win? If that's the case, why isn't it always Stone Cold vs. Hogan in the final? Because gimmick matches give lower seeded guys a chance to win.

No. Edge has had way more time to polish himself in the spot light while Eddie hasn't. Eddie hasn't had much time to show us what he's got at the main event level while Edge has. Eddie was a midcarder who got lucky.

Eddie is the technical genius here, not Edge. Besides, this is the basis of Edge's main event run in the WWE:

-Steal the title from face champion

-Brag for 3-4 weeks how he's the Rated-R superstar and that his opponent doesn't have a chance

And then two different trails:
-Have screwy win to retain title (DQ, outside interference)
-Lose the title.

Isn't that the case with every heel champion? They brag a while then lose? What's your point here?

Edge is a weak main eventer, while Eddie has held wins against Angle, Lesnar, JBL, Mysterio, and Benot (some of the top wrestlers at that time) and really was a solid upper midcarder/main eventer near the end of his career (and would've won the title again had he not died).

Oh Edge is a weak main eventer? I get it now. The WWE has put so much trust into a weak main eventer to hold the Championship 11 times and main event a couple Wrestlemanias. If Edge was so weak at main eventing, tell me why he's done it for so long. While Eddie was on top all of maybe a year total in his career?

Another thing, the venue shouldn't matter. Remember Unforgiven 06, TLC match versus Cena? it's held in his own HOMETOWN, in his own MATCH, and he LOST. Edge isn't clutch, and he doesn't have close to the amount of technical ability of Eddie to win this match.

The venue does matter.

Yes it does. John Cena is a lot stronger mentally than Eddie Guerrero ever could be. Eddie is all about playing off the crowd but when Edge has the crowd's full support, Eddie has no one to really back him up in a long, drawn out match.

If the only reason people are voting Edge is because Eddie's a 'career midcarder' just shouldn't vote. No offense, but this career midcarder has more technical ability in his one nut then Edge has in his entire body, and would really benefit from this stipulation.

What? People can vote for any reason and criteria they chose. Edge is simply better at headlining shows than Eddie was. What's wrong with that logic?

 

[Megatron]

No. Edge has had way more time to polish himself in the spot light while Eddie hasn't. Eddie hasn't had much time to show us what he's got at the main event level while Edge has. Eddie was a midcarder who got lucky.

While it certainly took him a while to get there, it's not like Eddie was gonna go away had he not died when he did. No, he was going to be champion again.

Isn't that the case with every heel champion? They brag a while then lose? What's your point here?

Yes, but Edge's length in reigns varied from 3 weeks to 7, which is immensely short. JBL held it for 280 days (more then half the amount Edge has) in one reign. Quality of the brand or not, not even two years earlier to Edge winning his first world title was someone holding the title for 200+ days. Hell, the Miz has already held the title for 110 days, longer then any of Edge's 11 reigns. Randy Orton held WWE title for over 200 days in 07-08.

Fact is: Edge is a weak champion that can't hold onto the title to save his life.

Oh Edge is a weak main eventer? I get it now. The WWE has put so much trust into a weak main eventer to hold the Championship 11 times and main event a couple Wrestlemanias. If Edge was so weak at main eventing, tell me why he's done it for so long. While Eddie was on top all of maybe a year total in his career?

I meant in terms of winning, he's very weak. Sure, as a heel, his characters built that way. But prime Edge, I believe, is around 07-08 when he was feuding with Taker. He won the title, then struggled to hold onto it. If he was a strong main eventer, he'd have less reigns that lasted longer. Sorry I'm not impressed by the multitude of 21 and 49 day reigns. Just doesn't scream great.

And Eddie's time main eventing was cut short due to his death, don't ignore that.

Yes it does. John Cena is a lot stronger mentally than Eddie Guerrero ever could be. Eddie is all about playing off the crowd but when Edge has the crowd's full support, Eddie has no one to really back him up in a long, drawn out match.

If Edge is a heel, which I'm seeing him as, it wouldn't be outrageous to think Eddie would be getting cheers, if this is 2004 Main Eventing Eddie. The crowd loved him and this isn't Edge's hometown.

Plus, the crowd will have minimal factor into who will tap the most. If that's one of your crutches, you're in trouble.

What? People can vote for any reason and criteria they chose. Edge is simply better at headlining shows than Eddie was. What's wrong with that logic?

Because it doesn't really answer who would get more submissions in 30 minutes. Sure, Edge may have main evented Wrestlemanias, but how's that going to help him make Eddie tap? If your main basis of being pro-Edge is that he spent more time in the main event, then I won't waste my time. Because the match not only favors Eddie, but add that in with Edge's injury history, Eddie's smarts, and Edge's inability to be a consistent winner, this should be Latino Heat all day every day.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

1. The style fits Eddie more then Edge. Eddie is a skilled technician. He could go hold for hold with some of the greatest technical wrestlers ever in Dean Malenko, Chris Benoit, etc. (including beating them many times).

How exactly does an Ultimate Submission's match fit Eddie more than Edge, considering Edge actually has multiple submission victories that people are somehow neglecting to acknowledge merely because (like Eddie), he had a better finisher that allowed him to pin the opponent?

Edge has went toe-to-toe with Kurt Angle, out-lasted the ankle lock, and defeated Angle - all without having to resort to tricks, and "cheating" by doing something with his shoes, or any other random crap that Eddie always had to resort to against Angle.

Oh, and Angle - is more of a technical wrestler, than the likes of Malenko, Eddie, Benoit or any other name you wanna toss up in the air. And Edge beat him, soundly.

Eddie has a few submissions that he can go to (Lasso from El Paso, Gory Special, STF, and figure four). Edge, meanwhile, isn't much of a technical wrestler, certainly not the calibre of Eddie. He's a showman and will try for the big moves to knock Eddie down, while Eddie will wear down Edge with attacks that will set up for any of the three submissions.

Edge doesn't need three alternative submission holds, because the sole one he has - works.

Eddie has three, and yet only one of them has actually won him matches; the Lasso. On that note, I seem to recall Eddie using it about as much as Edge has used his Edge-u-cator. So now what you need to do is breakdown the two top holds between them.

Edge's Edge-u-cator is basically a reverse Sharpshooter in which it's impossible to reverse in any manner and the only hope of the victim to get out is by crawling to the ropes. Edge has never had that submission reversed on him.

Eddie's Lasso is a high angle version of a sharpshooter, without actually sitting down or putting all his weight on the back. Instead, he torques the body backwards and places his knee in the sole of the back. If you look at how he's always done it, then you'll see how easy it is to escape, merely by allowing your body to roll underneath and slide out.

In the end - Edge's submission is only escapable via crawling to get a hopeful rope break. Eddie's can be rolled away from.

While I don't wanna review over every title reign, the first he stole from Cena (and proceeded to lose 3 weeks later).

And I suppose Edge cashing in the MITB, which the sole purpose of 'said' cash-in was doing so whenever the challenger so felt to do so - was less impactful than actually having a RUN-IN completely win you the match.

Edge may not have won many of his Championships without heel tactics, or without his opponents already being worn down - but at least he can say he's won part of them without anyone else's help.

Eddie's only Championship reign was done because Goldberg ran in, speared Lesnar, and allowed Eddie to win. Otherwise, Eddie had taken the F-5 and was well on his way to losing. Furthermore - looking back on that one specific Championship match - Eddie couldn't get the win via just a spear from Goldberg, it also took knocking Lesnar out via a ddt on the title belt, followed by a Frog Splash. So he needed outside interference AND cheating - just to pick up his sole title. Yeah, that makes him a much greater Champion.

His second he held over Summerslam (where he won by a cheap shot) and then lost it in a TLC at Unforgiven. Most of his reigns have been short in days like the first two. In fact, he's had exactly 1 reign over 100 days (at 105 from Armageddon 07 to Wrestlemania 24) and has held the title 11 times for 512 days - a whopping average of 46 days per reign. Not exactly impressive. Not only that, but in his 4 WWE Championship reigns, he's held the title for exactly 6 - that's right, 6 - more days then Eddie's ONE reign in 2004.

Eddie also held the Smackdown (World) Heavyweight Championship during a time when there were brand-exclusive Pay per views, and as I recall - he retained at Mania, then went on for the next month and a half before his next title defense at Judgment Day in which he LOST via DQ, only to hold another month and finally lost it to the same guy he lost to at Judgment Day.

So, while you're trying to hype Eddie's long reign up as being more impressive, the fact that Eddie ultimately beat Angle - only; then lost to JBL. Whereas Edge won his Championship off RVD/Cena and hold it in a similar fashion against Cena (via a pinfall - Summerslam) then lost in a TLC match, is kinda using a pot/kettle reference here.

Truth is neither reign was impressive, but at least Edge was Main Eventing every ppv he was in as a World Champion from the 2nd time on. Summerslam, then Unforgiven. Not to mention, he lost it to a world class athlete that will go down in history as one of the top guys in all of this profession. Whereas, Eddie didn't even Main Event the ppv he lost the belt at. And most people still refuse to accept JBL as a worthy Champion. (for what it's worth, I loved JBL and thought he was an amazing Champion - let that be noted)

All in all - you must take into account Edge's better reigns, if you're going to attempt using his "cheap/short" reigns against him.

The amount of times Edge is named champion should actually be held against him, because it shows he a) can't hold onto the title very long and b) isn't a dominant champion. He's actually a very poor champion. Anyone using his 11 titles to 1 title by Eddie should look a little bit deeper into those numbers then just the number of reigns.

Actually, the amount of times Edge has held the World Championship should be held in his favor. Because it shows how many times the Company felt he was the best guy to place the Championship on, to put over the Faces of the Company in the best light.

Edge has made a name for himself because he's faced some of the best. Cena, Taker, Orton, HHH, etc. But in return, Edge has also become one of the top heels in the WWE - and as a result, the Company continues to give him Championship runs to allow those other names the glory of beating him - thus, putting them back over.

Eddie put over JBL, who in turn made a name for himself against much better opponents and left Eddie in the dust.

As for the "poor Champion" remark, once again it should be noted that if you're going to run against Edge by claiming he's a poor Champion - the only way to do that, is to look at his win/loss record as Champion, then compare it to Eddie's one reign.

Eddie won his title with more underhanded-ness, than Edge. Edge was merely cashing in a title shot he'd earned, fairly, and was using the rules of 'said' title shot to his advantage. Eddie actually had to cheat to win.

Eddie retained against Angle, and that's it. Yes, Edge had the title less *(2nd time)* - and somehow defended it just as much. Strange how that one factored in. Edge defeated RVD, as well as Cena. Before dropping it to Cena. Eddie didn't beat anyone besides Angle, unless I'm mistaken - someone can correct it - with proof.

3. Edge is a walking injury. Edge has had many major injuries throughout his career.

And Eddie's dead. Edge wins by default.

Injuries aren't apart of fictional tournaments. Or at least they shouldn't be. I mean, to claim Edge wouldn't win because he's had injuries in his career would make him look even stronger - when you factor in how much longer he's lasted in the sport, how many more high profile matches he's competed in, and how many more titles he's won. All while being injury prone, I guess.

And guess what, the Laso from El Paso attacks the back, figure four the legs, and the Gory Special the back. Eddie, who is a smart wrestler, would realize he could have two weak areas that he could attack. I'd guess he'd go for the back, since he has a few different submissions he can put on Edge.

When has Eddie EVER won with the Gory Special? Furthermore, when has he ever used it as an actual submission? Now, I'm sure the official does one of those "walk-around" moments - but I've never seen Eddie keep anyone on his back long enough to make them submit.

Edge isn't a cruiserweight like Mysterio. Eddie isn't going to be holding Edge in place long enough to do anything other than allow Edge to take a nap, while Eddie wastes energy.

Seeing as how this is only 30 minutes, you probably won't see more then 3 or 4 submissions. Not only could he use those two submissions to make Edge quit, but he could use the Frog Splash to hurt Edge's back even more (since he's done it onto guys' backs before).

And Edge's moveset can focus entirely on Eddie's back, which will allow the Edge-u-cator to factor in and make Eddie tap. I fail to see how this argument can go one way or another.

The bottom line is: Eddie's technical ability and wide variety of moves that he can use to hurt Edge's back gives him at least a 2-1 victory, possibly more if he's on top early. Edge is not nearly the submission wrestler, nor technical genius, that Eddie was, and, I feel, is quite overrated simply because he's billed as an 11 time champion when you could condense that into 4 reigns and they still would only be in decent length (120ish days each). Edge couldn't chain wrestle with Eddie, and would probably be feeling the pains halfway through before giving up at least once or twice.

Viva La Raza, baby.

Yes, Eddie can be considerably better as a technical wrestler. NO, that does not mean he wins. Once again, Edge defeated Kurt Angle - soundly, and clean. I'm not intentionally trying to do the "Wrestler A beat B, so A can be C" logic - but considering you're trying to claim Eddie is a better technical athlete that means he'd win, is incorrect and Edge going head on with a better technical wrestler proves why.

Edge can chain wrestle Eddie, but the better question would be - would he want to? The answer is likely no. Why would you play to your opponent's strength, when you can go against their weaknesses? Edge has his own style and would use it against Guerrero, much like he has against the likes of Cena, Angle, and anyone else of a similar style to Guerrero.

Edge wins.

 

[Stormtrooper]

Oh Mega...... Did you really have to bring this up? Literally the WORST thing you can bring up.

3. Edge is a walking injury. Edge has had many major injuries throughout his career. First it was his neck injury in 2003, then it was two torn pectoral muscles, first in 05, then in 07, and then a torn achilles in 09. 4 major injuries throughout the entire body. And guess what, the Laso from El Paso attacks the back, figure four the legs, and the Gory Special the back. Eddie, who is a smart wrestler, would realize he could have two weak areas that he could attack. I'd guess he'd go for the back, since he has a few different submissions he can put on Edge.

Lets run through the following:
1. In 1999, Eddie Guerrero was involved in a VERY serious car accident, that almost cost him his life. He missed months of action before ultimately returning, but he was never the same man, and it would lead to further problems.
2. In his first WWE Match in 2000, he severely damaged his elbow. Being unable to compete for months again.
3. In May 2001, he was sent to rehab for a drug addiction. Unfortunately for him he relapsed, and in November of 2001 he was released from WWE.
4. He returned in April 2002, and then spent the next year and 10 Months solidly entrenched in the Midcard, before getting the shot at the Title. After losing the title, he would be firmly entrenched in the upper midcard for the remainder of his career, and we'll get to that now.
5. In November of 2005, Eddie suffered what was sadly the last and fatal career setback, when he was found dead in his hotel room due to at the too soon age of 38.

Edge has an injury problem, yes. Eddie, however, got seriously injured twice, then missed a year because of drug addiction, and then DIED. Eddie has missed EXPONENTIALLY more time then Edge, based solely on the fact that Eddie is dead (and thus not wrestling), whereas Edge is active. I love Eddie, but to give Eddie an ...Edge... due to injury is absurd, since, well, Eddie suffered the ultimate injury.

God, I hated to write that.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Edge's Edge-u-cator is basically a reverse Sharpshooter in which it's impossible to reverse in any manner and the only hope of the victim to get out is by crawling to the ropes. Edge has never had that submission reversed on him.

I'm only going to refer to this particulary part of the post, you can say the same thing about the Gory special. Like I said in my post, the GS might be difficult to lock, but once you are locked there isn't a way you can break the hold or even going to the ropes. Like I said before: how the hell are you going to break it if your arms and legs are trapped? This move has been broken cause for American wrestling is abusive to make a move where you can't move your freaking body.

 

[Thriller Ant]

Oh Mega...... Did you really have to bring this up? Literally the WORST thing you can bring up.


Lets run through the following:
1. In 1999, Eddie Guerrero was involved in a VERY serious car accident, that almost cost him his life. He missed months of action before ultimately returning, but he was never the same man, and it would lead to further problems.
2. In his first WWE Match in 2000, he severely damaged his elbow. Being unable to compete for months again.
3. In May 2001, he was sent to rehab for a drug addiction. Unfortunately for him he relapsed, and in November of 2001 he was released from WWE.
4. He returned in April 2002, and then spent the next year and 10 Months solidly entrenched in the Midcard, before getting the shot at the Title. After losing the title, he would be firmly entrenched in the upper midcard for the remainder of his career, and we'll get to that now.
5. In November of 2005, Eddie suffered what was sadly the last and fatal career setback, when he was found dead in his hotel room due to at the too soon age of 38.

Edge has an injury problem, yes. Eddie, however, got seriously injured twice, then missed a year because of drug addiction, and then DIED. Eddie has missed EXPONENTIALLY more time then Edge, based solely on the fact that Eddie is dead (and thus not wrestling), whereas Edge is active. I love Eddie, but to give Eddie an ...Edge... due to injury is absurd, since, well, Eddie suffered the ultimate injury.

God, I hated to write that.

I don't care that much about the match, but this is fucking stupid. The match is a submission match. Edge has suffered multiple in-ring injuries that show that he is injury-prone. Submissions cause injuries. That is why Edge is at a disadvantage there.

Last time I checked, car accidents, drug addiction and overdosing cannot occur in a wrestling match. Therefore everything you just said besides the elbow injury is completely irrelevant to this match and a complete waste of time for anyone to read.

As for the match itself, both guys have a submission move that has finished guys, but wasn't their main form of ending a match. The last guy to cheat will probably win, so I guess I'll go with Edge since he's had more main event success with his cheating than Eddie.

 

[Megatron]

How exactly does an Ultimate Submission's match fit Eddie more than Edge, considering Edge actually has multiple submission victories that people are somehow neglecting to acknowledge merely because (like Eddie), he had a better finisher that allowed him to pin the opponent?

Eddie is a better technical wrestler/chain wrestler, which is what a majority of submission matches are about - technical wrestling.

Edge has went toe-to-toe with Kurt Angle, out-lasted the ankle lock, and defeated Angle - all without having to resort to tricks, and "cheating" by doing something with his shoes, or any other random crap that Eddie always had to resort to against Angle.

I know you're referring to their WM XX match when you say Eddie was cheating, but him loosening his boot wasn't cheating at all. It was Eddie showing off his smarts yet again - something that Eddie will use in this match.

Oh, and Angle - is more of a technical wrestler, than the likes of Malenko, Eddie, Benoit or any other name you wanna toss up in the air. And Edge beat him, soundly.

Where in the world is Angle more of a technical wrestler then Malenko or Benoit? Malenko isn't known as the man of 1000 holds for nothing, and Benoit was good enough technically that he didn't just need the crossface to win. Angle is slightly more technical then Eddie, but Eddie isn't chopped liver.

And Edge has beaten Angle, but how many have been by submission? I'm asking this partly because I'm not sure. If he hasn't though, the point's moot, as Eddie has beaten Angle as well.

Edge doesn't need three alternative submission holds, because the sole one he has - works.

Eddie has three, and yet only one of them has actually won him matches; the Lasso. On that note, I seem to recall Eddie using it about as much as Edge has used his Edge-u-cator. So now what you need to do is breakdown the two top holds between them.

Edge's Edge-u-cator is basically a reverse Sharpshooter in which it's impossible to reverse in any manner and the only hope of the victim to get out is by crawling to the ropes. Edge has never had that submission reversed on him.

Eddie's Lasso is a high angle version of a sharpshooter, without actually sitting down or putting all his weight on the back. Instead, he torques the body backwards and places his knee in the sole of the back. If you look at how he's always done it, then you'll see how easy it is to escape, merely by allowing your body to roll underneath and slide out.

In the end - Edge's submission is only escapable via crawling to get a hopeful rope break. Eddie's can be rolled away from.

Even if Eddie's Lasso from El Paso has been the only one to record him wins, it's not like the Gory Special, STF, and Figure 4 won't wear down Edge. Plus, should Edge get one submissionn - which would be likely - you think Eddie would fall to the same move twice in the same match, where falls are so crucial? You know Eddie is one of the smartest to wrestle in the past 15 years, and so Edge couldn't just rely on 1 submission, since it would take at least 2 (more then likely 3) to win this match.

And I suppose Edge cashing in the MITB, which the sole purpose of 'said' cash-in was doing so whenever the challenger so felt to do so - was less impactful than actually having a RUN-IN completely win you the match.

As you yourself said later on, Goldbergs interference wasn't enough to put away Lesnar, and that's because Lesnar was a straight up animal. Besides, Eddie was going with him for 20 minutes straight before any interference happened. It's not like he was getting creamed, Goldberg interfered and put Eddie on top of Lesnar, and that was it. Eddie still finished him off with the frog splash.

Edge may not have won many of his Championships without heel tactics, or without his opponents already being worn down - but at least he can say he's won part of them without anyone else's help.

The only reason he can say this is because he can't hold onto the title at all and Eddie passed before he could earn at least another reign (which he was slated to get).

Eddie's only Championship reign was done because Goldberg ran in, speared Lesnar, and allowed Eddie to win. Otherwise, Eddie had taken the F-5 and was well on his way to losing. Furthermore - looking back on that one specific Championship match - Eddie couldn't get the win via just a spear from Goldberg, it also took knocking Lesnar out via a ddt on the title belt, followed by a Frog Splash. So he needed outside interference AND cheating - just to pick up his sole title. Yeah, that makes him a much greater Champion.

He was holding his own for the first 20 minutes of the match (before Goldberg came in) and did have some successful retains later on, instead of losing it at the next PPV.

Eddie also held the Smackdown (World) Heavyweight Championship during a time when there were brand-exclusive Pay per views, and as I recall - he retained at Mania, then went on for the next month and a half before his next title defense at Judgment Day in which he LOST via DQ, only to hold another month and finally lost it to the same guy he lost to at Judgment Day.

He beat Mysterio as well, but other then that, most of his matches either ended in no contests or DQ's because of his feud with JBL.

So, while you're trying to hype Eddie's long reign up as being more impressive, the fact that Eddie ultimately beat Angle - only; then lost to JBL. Whereas Edge won his Championship off RVD/Cena and hold it in a similar fashion against Cena (via a pinfall - Summerslam) then lost in a TLC match, is kinda using a pot/kettle reference here.

Eddies reign was highly underwhelming, I'm not denying that, but he did have SOME successful defenses (against Angle, Mysterio, technically against JBL) while many of Edge's resulted in him losing the next PPV. Such as HIS first reign.

Truth is neither reign was impressive, but at least Edge was Main Eventing every ppv he was in as a World Champion from the 2nd time on. Summerslam, then Unforgiven. Not to mention, he lost it to a world class athlete that will go down in history as one of the top guys in all of this profession. Whereas, Eddie didn't even Main Event the ppv he lost the belt at. And most people still refuse to accept JBL as a worthy Champion. (for what it's worth, I loved JBL and thought he was an amazing Champion - let that be noted)

Most of his title matches since the second reign have seen him during teh middle of the show (since most of his reigns have been on Smackdown, which normally doesn't main event).

All in all - you must take into account Edge's better reigns, if you're going to attempt using his "cheap/short" reigns against him.

I would, but where's his better reigns? His longest reign was 105 days, and he went against Mysterio in two of the main events (including one where he was hurt) and then the Undertaker (where he lost the title). That was, in my opinion, his best reign, and it wasn't all that mighty.

Actually, the amount of times Edge has held the World Championship should be held in his favor. Because it shows how many times the Company felt he was the best guy to place the Championship on, to put over the Faces of the Company in the best light.

No, because if you add up the days you could make them into 4 solid reigns at around 100 days each. However, with Edge's inability to hold onto the title, he has 11 with less then 60 days in all but 2 of them, I believe. How is that impressive when all he's doing is losing the title after (normally) losing it in a screwy way? It just shows that when the odds are even, he normally isn't the better man.

As for the "poor Champion" remark, once again it should be noted that if you're going to run against Edge by claiming he's a poor Champion - the only way to do that, is to look at his win/loss record as Champion, then compare it to Eddie's one reign.

Eddie won his title with more underhanded-ness, than Edge. Edge was merely cashing in a title shot he'd earned, fairly, and was using the rules of 'said' title shot to his advantage. Eddie actually had to cheat to win.

Eddie retained against Angle, and that's it. Yes, Edge had the title less *(2nd time)* - and somehow defended it just as much. Strange how that one factored in. Edge defeated RVD, as well as Cena. Before dropping it to Cena. Eddie didn't beat anyone besides Angle, unless I'm mistaken - someone can correct it - with proof.

Again, he also beat Mysterio. And Edge's win at Summerslam was by underhand tactics (brass knuckles) as well. Anyways, enough about title reigns, back onto why Eddie should win the match.

Injuries aren't apart of fictional tournaments. Or at least they shouldn't be. I mean, to claim Edge wouldn't win because he's had injuries in his career would make him look even stronger - when you factor in how much longer he's lasted in the sport, how many more high profile matches he's competed in, and how many more titles he's won. All while being injury prone, I guess.

This just seems like a bunch of drivel. It's pretty cut and dry. I'll give you another example:

In many later Shawn Michaels matches, you will see guys attack his back, even though the surgery that has happened possibly 4 or 5 years ago. Still, their work on his back puts Shawn in pain and at a disadvantage.

Now, onto the point I was making. Edge has a history of injuries all over his body, with the big one being his neck. Eddie, being the smart ring veteran that he is, will use the Frog Splash, German suplexes, the Three Amigos, dropkicks, powerbombs, backbreakers - you name it - to take Edge to the ground, before he can execute either the Gory Special or Lasso from El Paso. After all of the work done on the back that will never really be the same as it was, Edge will have no choice but to give up at least once. Probably to both moves.

When has Eddie EVER won with the Gory Special? Furthermore, when has he ever used it as an actual submission? Now, I'm sure the official does one of those "walk-around" moments - but I've never seen Eddie keep anyone on his back long enough to make them submit.

It's a submission that can win matches and is in Eddies repitoire. As far as I'm concerned, if Gory Guerrero could win matches with it, there's no reason to believe that Eddie couldn't have used his fathers move for at least ONE fall.

Edge isn't a cruiserweight like Mysterio. Eddie isn't going to be holding Edge in place long enough to do anything other than allow Edge to take a nap, while Eddie wastes energy.

Or, y'know, put pain on that neck that he had surgery on.

And Edge's moveset can focus entirely on Eddie's back, which will allow the Edge-u-cator to factor in and make Eddie tap. I fail to see how this argument can go one way or another.

Again, Edge could get one fall from the Edge-u-cator. But I'll say it again - you really think Eddie would fall for the same hold twice in a match where falls are so crucial? Don't think so.

Yes, Eddie can be considerably better as a technical wrestler. NO, that does not mean he wins. Once again, Edge defeated Kurt Angle - soundly, and clean. I'm not intentionally trying to do the "Wrestler A beat B, so A can be C" logic - but considering you're trying to claim Eddie is a better technical athlete that means he'd win, is incorrect and Edge going head on with a better technical wrestler proves why.

Edge may have beaten Angle, but that doesn't matter if it wasn't by submission. This is a submission match, pinfalls can't help you here. So unless Edge has a submission win against Angle at anytime (which he might have, I'm not sure) that argument isn't much help because Edge didn't have to focus trying to make Angle tap.

Edge can chain wrestle Eddie, but the better question would be - would he want to? The answer is likely no. Why would you play to your opponent's strength, when you can go against their weaknesses? Edge has his own style and would use it against Guerrero, much like he has against the likes of Cena, Angle, and anyone else of a similar style to Guerrero.

Eddie is a smarter in ring competitor then Edge, and would make sure he doesn't fall into Edge's style of play in a match where he has to wear down his body. Besides, Edge is gonna have to do some slower, more methodical offense if he wants to lock in a submssion. Thus, he's playing into Guerrero's style.

Edge wins.

Nope. 2-1 loss, if he's lucky.

 

[Megatron]

Oh Mega...... Did you really have to bring this up? Literally the WORST thing you can bring up.


Lets run through the following:
1. In 1999, Eddie Guerrero was involved in a VERY serious car accident, that almost cost him his life. He missed months of action before ultimately returning, but he was never the same man, and it would lead to further problems.
2. In his first WWE Match in 2000, he severely damaged his elbow. Being unable to compete for months again.
3. In May 2001, he was sent to rehab for a drug addiction. Unfortunately for him he relapsed, and in November of 2001 he was released from WWE.
4. He returned in April 2002, and then spent the next year and 10 Months solidly entrenched in the Midcard, before getting the shot at the Title. After losing the title, he would be firmly entrenched in the upper midcard for the remainder of his career, and we'll get to that now.
5. In November of 2005, Eddie suffered what was sadly the last and fatal career setback, when he was found dead in his hotel room due to at the too soon age of 38.

Edge has an injury problem, yes. Eddie, however, got seriously injured twice, then missed a year because of drug addiction, and then DIED. Eddie has missed EXPONENTIALLY more time then Edge, based solely on the fact that Eddie is dead (and thus not wrestling), whereas Edge is active. I love Eddie, but to give Eddie an ...Edge... due to injury is absurd, since, well, Eddie suffered the ultimate injury.

God, I hated to write that.

First of all, I'm quite sure there isn't going to be any pain pills planted in the middle of the ring for Eddie to OD on. If there is, then give Edge the match. But, as far as my knowledge is known, there's never been drugs placed in the middle of a wrestling ring. So cross out numbers 3-5 on your list.

#1, where was this serious injury. As in, what body part. Because a neck injury is about as serious as you can have, which is what Edge suffered.

And for the 2nd one, what submission does Edge use that applies pressure to the elbow? None that I know of.

You took my point pretty much the worst possible way you can take it. Edge has been injury prone throughout his career, which Eddie would exploit to get some falls. Eddie has had the one injury to a body part (that you've explained) and the car accident (although I'm not sure what main body part was affected there). Edge's submission isn't directed towards the elbow, so due to Edge's past injury history Eddie has to have some sort of advantage.

I don't see what drugs have to do with anything I was trying to say. This is purely wrestling talk.

 

[Muffin Top Merkley]

I have to admit, but due to my extremely tired state of mind, when I first came in here to vote, it was only based on Edge has the Edgucator submission move in his repertoire and Eddie didn't have one. It didn't take me long to remember Eddie's Lasso from El Paso.

I also thought Eddie would lie, cheat and steal a victory here, giving him the potential advantage. But then I remembered that Edge is the Ultimate Opportunist, and would go to the same lengths as Eddie.

Currently, I'm undecided as to who will get my vote.

Part of me wants to vote for Edge just for being Canadian, but the votes are currently way to close for me to just throw away a vote like that. I'd hate to be the one vote that puts Edge (or anyone for that matter) over for a stupid reason.

What this match will come down to for my vote is who is more likely to lock in a submission in the middle of the ring. I'll need more convincing from both parties before my vote is cast.

 

[Alastor]

You mean aside from last weeks Smackdown, where Edge used the Edgucator to defeat Drew McIntyre?


Last time I checked this isn't a "how many submissions can you lock on your opponent" match. This is an Ultimate Submission match. Eddie can lock on submission attempts all he wants, but that doesn't mean Edge is gonna submit to all of them.

This is a real close match, one that can go either way. I personally chose Edge since Edge has had an exponentially bigger career (more championships, more world championships, more notoriety, MUCH longer reign on top, etc), and because I think he will wear down Eddie enough to where he'll be able to lock in whatever submission he wants (you don't have to be a submission wrestler to be able to lock in a submission). I love Eddie, but Edge takes this.

Knowing more submission moves in an Ultimate Submission match is very much an advantage. Yes Edge may not tap out to all of them, but in a big match environment both wrestlers will have taken extreme precaution to guard against the others' signature submission. Knowing a few added moves to surprise your opponent may just give you the edge to win in a close match up.

 

[The Other Hardy Brother]

Eddie was a better overall wrestler than Edge. In a submission match I'm sure both of these men cunning as they are would come up with more ways than just their normal submission holds to wear the other one down. But in only 30 minutes I can't see either of them tapping out more than once. I see Edge using some underhanded advantage and then hitting the Spear on Eddie and slapping on his submission and getting the only submission of the match. Edge wins here 1-0

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I need to state that I'll be covering other posts, including Mega's reply, at a later time today. I simply wanted to touch base on this (smaller) post, because it'll take me less time.

I'm only going to refer to this particulary part of the post, you can say the same thing about the Gory special. Like I said in my post, the GS might be difficult to lock, but once you are locked there isn't a way you can break the hold or even going to the ropes. Like I said before: how the hell are you going to break it if your arms and legs are trapped? This move has been broken cause for American wrestling is abusive to make a move where you can't move your freaking body.

You contradicted yourself. First you claim the hold is unbreakable, then you back-track and claim that because of American wrestling, they make it "breakable" because they hate knowing there's a move that you can't escape.

The fact is, it's breakable because wrestlers have broken it. Now, do I believe Edge is going to 'Mysterio' himself out of that specific hold? No. Edge doesn't have the limber ability Rey has, however Edge does have about 100 lbs. on Rey. Edge also isn't exactly the type who submits instantly. He's withstood stronger, more punishing submission holds than one that merely bends you to a slight degree. Eddie won't be able to hold him long enough to force a submission, and the longer he tries - the weaker he'll get from holding all that weight on his back.

Which, in turn, helps Edge to set-up an easier tapout on Eddie's part from his back pain-inflicted Edge-u-cator.

Now, going back to the Gory Special - Edge and Guerrero have actually met before, in 2002, and in their meetings I do believe the record is 2-1 (Edge), and in all three matches, anytime Edge was in the Gory Special - he escaped it with little damage done.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Eddie is a better technical wrestler/chain wrestler, which is what a majority of submission matches are about - technical wrestling.

Edge has went toe-to-toe with the likes of Eddie Guerrero, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, and several other technical wrestlers. He's also defeated everyone I've named off - including Eddie Guerrero.

By submission? No, at least not the majority of the time. However, has Eddie defeated any of them by submission, either? No, at least not that anyone has mentioned or shown proof of.

Edge has defeated a technical wrestler by submission before in William Regal. Regal is just as technical, if not more so, than Eddie.

I know you're referring to their WM XX match when you say Eddie was cheating, but him loosening his boot wasn't cheating at all. It was Eddie showing off his smarts yet again - something that Eddie will use in this match.

Eddie has actually referenced his Mania match against Angle as him "cheating". I understand that doing something as simply loosening his boot laces up, isn't cheating, but I was only referring to what Eddie has called it himself.

When you bring in the factor of smarts and ring savvy, Edge has just as much of it as Eddie. Edge wasn't given the moniker of "The Ultimate Opportunist" for nothing.

Where in the world is Angle more of a technical wrestler then Malenko or Benoit? Malenko isn't known as the man of 1000 holds for nothing, and Benoit was good enough technically that he didn't just need the crossface to win. Angle is slightly more technical then Eddie, but Eddie isn't chopped liver.

And Edge has beaten Angle, but how many have been by submission? I'm asking this partly because I'm not sure. If he hasn't though, the point's moot, as Eddie has beaten Angle as well.

I feel like I should find the video of Jericho asking where the video evidence is of Malenko actually performing 1,000 moves. Sure, he was a great inside the ring, but Edge isn't facing Malenko - and if I recall, Malenko won over Eddie more than vise versa.

As for Angle, uhm, Angle is considered one of the best technical wrestlers in the business because he's a legit wrestler. He's a gold medal winner. He's wrestled in the Olympics; and Edge has gone toe-to-toe, and defeated Angle multiple times.

Eddie holds victories over Angle, but if I recall in their feud - Eddie had to find constant underhanded tactics to get those victories. Eddie couldn't out-right hang with Angle in terms of wrestling. Edge could.

How does this relate? Edge has proven he can go with the best as far as technical in-ring ability is concerned. Eddie has had issues.

Even if Eddie's Lasso from El Paso has been the only one to record him wins, it's not like the Gory Special, STF, and Figure 4 won't wear down Edge. Plus, should Edge get one submissionn - which would be likely - you think Eddie would fall to the same move twice in the same match, where falls are so crucial? You know Eddie is one of the smartest to wrestle in the past 15 years, and so Edge couldn't just rely on 1 submission, since it would take at least 2 (more then likely 3) to win this match.

This match is what, 30 minutes? You're assuming too much that several submissions will be had, when I'd be more willing to bet it'll come down to a 1-0 finish.

Once again, Edge has been locked in the ankle lock by Kurt Angle and with held the pain from it, without tapping. He's been locked in the Figure Four by Ric Flair and refused to tap out. He's been put in the Triangle Choke by the Undertaker, and went almost a solid minute before finally passing out/tapping out.

Eddie Guerrero doesn't have the same skill to apply the Figure Four as the guy who mastered it; and if Edge didn't tap when Flair put it on him - why do you think Edge would even give it a second thought to someone less than the master?

Also, there seems to be two different versions of the Gory Special people are referring to. I need to know which is the one we're discussing. The first is one where he locks the legs around his own, and pulls back on the neck - but the arms are free. The second is where the legs and arms are both pinned, but no pressure is being placed on the neck and all that's happening is the body is being bent backwards - but not by much.

Edge has been put in this hold before, and hold tapped. He's also found ways of getting out of it. There is no reason to believe he wouldn't do the exact same thing again. And unless Eddie wants to waste all the strength he has in a 30 minute match, in hopes that he can hold Edge in place and pray he'll tap to something that's NEVER caused anyone to submit to before, my guess is Eddie will give up and try something else.

It's not like he was getting creamed, Goldberg interfered and put Eddie on top of Lesnar, and that was it. Eddie still finished him off with the frog splash.

What match were you watching, exactly? Because the match I was watching saw Eddie being man-handled for the most part, followed up by an F-5 that had Eddie beaten had Eddie's feet not hit the official - which allowed Goldberg to enter the ring and SPEAR Lesnar, not just "put Eddie on top", and Lesnar still had enough power left because Eddie (in 20 minutes) couldn't wear him down enough for even something as powerful as Goldberg's spear to beat him.

So Eddie found a title belt, ddt'd Lesnar on it, then hit a Frog Splash.

A LOT of crap went into Eddie actually winning that match, and none of it had anything to do with Eddie actually having the in-ring technical talent to do it on his own.

The only reason he can say this is because he can't hold onto the title at all and Eddie passed before he could earn at least another reign (which he was slated to get).

Other than the assumption that Eddie was going to win the Championship for a 2nd time (which I've not seen solid proof of, instead of Eddie supporters saying "oh, it's true.") I'll just agree to disagree.

However, anything else in what you said here - I have no idea what you were trying to say. "He can't hold onto the title at all"; uhm, Eddie lost his as well, so I suppose it could be said neither could Eddie. I really fail to see where this means anything?

The overall point of the Championship accomplishments is that for as much as Edge has lost the World Championship, he's rebounded and re-won it all over again. When Eddie lost his Championship, he had his chance(s) for rematch(es) and continued to lose them all.

Eddies reign was highly underwhelming, I'm not denying that, but he did have SOME successful defenses (against Angle, Mysterio, technically against JBL) while many of Edge's resulted in him losing the next PPV. Such as HIS first reign.

You keep referring to his first Championship reign in reference to how quickly he lost, but you refuse to accept that in other reigns he's actually defeated and retained against several individuals much greater than the likes of Mysterio, and DQ/No Contest results against JBL.

Edge has defeated Ric Flair, Rey Mysterio, Kane, John Cena, the Undertaker, Jeff Hardy, Triple H, and many others.

Another issue that needs to be brought up - if you're going to use the "Eddie was going to win a 2nd Heavyweight title but he died" excuse - then you have to allow the equally added - "Edge was set to have a long reign in 2007 from when he won in May, until the following year's Wrestlemania at the end of March, but he suffered a pectoral injury."

Which is actually explained when you consider the Championship reigns went from Edge vacating the belt, to Khali and Batista sharing time with it, until Edge won it back when he instantly returned from injury only to drop it to Taker at Mania.

Most of his title matches since the second reign have seen him during teh middle of the show (since most of his reigns have been on Smackdown, which normally doesn't main event).

Actually, when Edge won the Championship directly following Vengeance in June of 2006 he Main Evented the following two Pay Per Views, (Summerslam & Unforgiven) as well as the Saturday Night's Main Event that fell in between.

As well, while we're on the topic of which of the two have Main Evented what.. while Eddie indeed holds a World Championship victory at a Wrestlemania, and that is pretty much the only thing Edge has left to do..

Edge has Main Evented a Wrestlemania. As well as been apart of 3 collective Mania Main Event programs. Eddie's been apart of one, and it wasn't THE Main Event.

I would, but where's his better reigns? His longest reign was 105 days, and he went against Mysterio in two of the main events (including one where he was hurt) and then the Undertaker (where he lost the title). That was, in my opinion, his best reign, and it wasn't all that mighty.

Dolph Ziggler has been a 1-time World Champion for a total of roughly 40 minutes. Jeff Hardy has a reign that lasted barely 3 minutes. Just because their reigns lasted under an hour, does not mean they weren't legit World Champions in the history books.

The point is - you can't just look at one reign as any specific best. The fact that he had multiple reigns, and over double digits worth of them - against guys the likes of; Taker, Cena, HHH, Orton, and more.. it shows you that Edge has become an elite performer in the business.

Eddie had 1 reign, in which he beat Angle, Lesnar, (you claim Mysterio) and lost to JBL. He never even BEAT JBL. And once he lost, he never rebounded.. then he died.

No, because if you add up the days you could make them into 4 solid reigns at around 100 days each. However, with Edge's inability to hold onto the title, he has 11 with less then 60 days in all but 2 of them, I believe. How is that impressive when all he's doing is losing the title after (normally) losing it in a screwy way? It just shows that when the odds are even, he normally isn't the better man.

Alright, so since you want to combined everything.. Edge is currently ranked 3rd among combined total of Championships held. (7 World title reigns for 379 days and counting) Behind only Batista, and Triple H. Yes, Edge has lost his title shortly after winning it - but as I keep repeating, unlike Eddie - Edge continued to rebound and continued to re-win.

Now, when you get through all the title talk and what this means, or how it can relate.. it's pretty simple.

Eddie can't rebound. Edge can.

Edge gets a submission victory over Eddie, and he'll lose because he won't be able to regain focus on the goal at hand. Edge loses, and he'll come back faster and stronger, reclaiming his goal at hand.

In many later Shawn Michaels matches, you will see guys attack his back, even though the surgery that has happened possibly 4 or 5 years ago. Still, their work on his back puts Shawn in pain and at a disadvantage.

Now, onto the point I was making. Edge has a history of injuries all over his body, with the big one being his neck. Eddie, being the smart ring veteran that he is, will use the Frog Splash, German suplexes, the Three Amigos, dropkicks, powerbombs, backbreakers - you name it - to take Edge to the ground, before he can execute either the Gory Special or Lasso from El Paso. After all of the work done on the back that will never really be the same as it was, Edge will have no choice but to give up at least once. Probably to both moves.

Has Shawn Michaels' back injury ever once factored into why he's LOST a match? No. Never. Infact, some would say that when he returned and since he returned - he was even better than he was before.

Now, since Edge has returned from all his injuries - have any of them ever once cost Edge a match? No. Edge had an ankle injury and Jericho won via a Walls of Jericho (that focused on the back, not the ankle), incase you wanted to use that as a possible excuse.

Eddie, has had injuries as well - but it's truly a moot point, because injuries don't factor into a Wrestler's match unless it's scripted to. That is the truth.

Steve Austin broke his neck (via Owen Hart) and continued to wrestle for years after that. He was ran down by a car as well, and not once did he lose due to a broken neck, or back. Injuries are not the factor you're making them out to be.

Yeah, the announcer's will likely make mention of how so and so was hurt, and how that body part is being targeted - but more often than not, if ever at all, the injury is not related to the outcome of a match.

Or, y'know, put pain on that neck that he had surgery on.

See above reply...

Again, Edge could get one fall from the Edge-u-cator. But I'll say it again - you really think Eddie would fall for the same hold twice in a match where falls are so crucial? Don't think so.

As I said above somewhere, and I'll say once before (I believe) before I'm done replying in total - you're relying too much on the belief that several submissions will happen.

Neither guy is known for tapping out, and neither guy is known for being heavily submission heavy. That will result in a 1-0 finish, more than a 2-1, 3-1, 3-2 style of ending.

As for your comments - no, I highly doubt Eddie will tap more than once to the Edge-u-cator, but not because he wouldn't want to; so much as due to the time restrictions and the fact I believe it'll come down to the wire - or a sudden death set-up in which Edge wins 1-0.

Eddie is a smarter in ring competitor then Edge, and would make sure he doesn't fall into Edge's style of play in a match where he has to wear down his body. Besides, Edge is gonna have to do some slower, more methodical offense if he wants to lock in a submssion. Thus, he's playing into Guerrero's style.

I have NO idea how you can claim Eddie is the smarter in-ring competitor, when you have constantly brought up how much Edge has screwed and manipulated his way to World Championship victories.

As for the style of play, I believe you're forgetting that these two have had wars with each other before - and they both loved the fast pace style. Edge won't fall into anything, and Guerrero won't play into anything. Their styles are more alike than you want to believe. The only difference is Edge has held the upper hand more than Guerrero ever did.

Now, as far as the finishers go - both revolve around getting your opponent weakened enough to be on the ground and in a position to have their legs twisted. Neither guy has the upper hand in having to work harder, or less, to put a submission on.

Nope. 2-1 loss, if he's lucky.

See.. told ya I'd be bringing up the lack of falls situation once again.

This match is 30 minutes. Edge and Guerrero both have very rarely tapped out, and both have good stamina. The difference is I feel Edge has endured worse submissions than Guerrero's Lasso, and withstood them. Just like all their previous match-ups, Eddie and Edge would put on a classic.. but Edge would come out the winner, just like he did before; in a 1-0 finish.