Being An Indie Star Is No Longer A Handicap - And I'm Not Sure It Ever Was

[Uncle Sam]

This is a line of thought that I've plagiarised from Coco - but he'd plagiarised it from Leo Kruger moments earlier, so I think that's alright.

For the non-Bo-Leavers amongst us, Kruger isn't just like Justin Gabriel because he's South African; he also has a very similar background. Kruger wrestled in World Wrestling Professionals in South Africa, just like Gabriel, and was something of a Big Deal™, just like Gabriel. Unlike Gabriel, he was world heavyweight champion there. Kruger then made his way to FCW, just like Gabriel, where he was their world champion, just like Gabriel. Since, Gabriel ended up on NXT's first season, and Kruger has made his way, almost by default, to the new NXT/FCW hybrid (also known as NXT). Look at this, or at one of Kruger's matches, or one of Kruger's promos, and you can tell that he is one hell of a prospect. He's basically Kraven the Hunter, but as a wrestler. If that sounds awesome to you, it's because it is. If it doesn't, you're wrong.

During a recent 'promo class' for the NXT prospects, Kruger cut this promo:

http://www.putlocker.com/file/B9480C88ED2CB1C5# (Click "Continue as Free User" to view the video)

If you'd like to go over what Kruger said again, or you're more of a reader than a viewer, I took the trouble of making this transcript, martyr as I am:

I could cut you a promo. I could be very entertaining. I could be funny. I could dance and I could make you laugh, but we both know that will make absolutely no difference. So instead, I will speak from the soul. And don't cut me off, because I have earned this time. I have earned it.

No matter what I do, you will not invest in me. Why? Because my name is not Seth Rollins. Or Dean Ambrose. Or Antonio Cesaro. No, my name is Leo Kruger, and that's not good enough. Because I didn't work the indies for twenty dollars a night - no. Because I was too busy - I was too busy main eventing Lagos, Nigeria in front of twenty thousand people at the age of nineteen. So I'm not your guy. And I'm done trying to be your guy. I'm not your puppet anymore. I don't care if I entertain you anymore. This puppet is cutting his strings. And you only have yourself to blame for it. Ta ta.

I don't for a second believe this is a shoot. Some people do, largely because they're idiots. If you're going to shoot, you're not going to do it in a promo class presentation that nobody's supposed to see. It's a showcase for Kruger's talking abilities, and a pretty good one at that. And it's true. Three years, which is how long Kruger's been with WWE, is not an unreasonably long time to spend in developmental - Kruger's wrong there - but it seems as if indie talent do get preferential treatment.

People say that if Vince McMahon didn't make you a star, you don't get to be a star in WWE. This is bullshit for a number of reasons:

1) Hulk Hogan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_h...81981.E2.80.931983.29_The_Birth_of_Hulkamania)

2) It's 2013. If you're not a star in WWE, you're not a star - unless your name is Sting.

3) "Indie buzz" is the closest you can get to being a star outside of WWE these days, short of being a TNA deserter, and it's clearly been an advantage recently. This is what this thread is about.

We'll go with the indie stars Kruger mentions in his promo first. Seth Rollins, or Tyler Black, and Dean Ambrose, or Jon Moxley, are two thirds of The Shield. I don't know who said The Shield were in the doghouse, but they clearly don't watch WWE television. They've demolished every big name they've come across - sometimes through strength of numbers, sometimes through old fashioned teamwork - from Sheamus and Ryback to John Cena and The Undertaker. Most recently, they eliminated seven members of the opposition in an eleven-on-three handicap match - and only lost after a four man beatdown on Seth Rollins. If the Wyatt Family have been given The Shield's push, the plan for The Shield's push was for them to do fuck all.

Antonio Cesaro, or Claudio Castagnoli, is actually doing pretty poorly by comparison - but still pretty bloody well. He came off a lengthy reign as United States Champion but is still lucky enough to have a storyline, a character and a match or three to showcase his talent every week.

Meanwhile, alongside Kruger in NXT, we have...

Sami Zayn, or El Generico, the hottest prospect that WWE have. There's no doubt that Sami is exceptionally talented, and I love him more than my immediate family, but he's been given main roster talent to wrestle and a championship push mere months after debuting. Shit, he was wrestling, and defeating, Antonio Cesaro minutes after debuting.

Kassius Ohno, or Chris Hero, is, as far as I can tell, shit. But like a bad smell, like that which shit produces, he just won't go away. Reports are that a main roster spot is his once he loses the love handles. I don't know about that, but I do know that he's back on our screens once again, being given a baffling anti-authority storyline and yet another chance to demonstrate his lack of any remarkable attributes.

At the very pinnacle of professional wrestling we have Daniel Bryan, or Bryan Danielson, two-time WWE Champion, and the only man to get a clean win over John Cena not named The Rock in years. Bryan hasn't always been on the receiving end of the best writing, but he was given a Money in the Bank win and a sebsequent world championship when the reaction he got from live audiences was more coughs in a library than deafening roars.

People call CM Punk, or CM Punk, whiny because he talks about having the cards stacked against him when he was clearly actually dealt a pretty good hand. I think Punk has some genuine complaints, but it was that indie buzz that kept him afloat when he could have sunk. He and Bryan are comfortably the top two stars in professional wrestling with John Cena absent. At worst, Punk is the man that paved the road for those who followed. At best, he's a man who was handed championship after championship and great storyline after great storyline on a platter because of his pedigree.

Goodness knows why Kaval left. My theory is that it's because he's an impatient little bitch. He won NXT and was getting regular exposure on national television. What a horrible existence! Still, he gave it a good fortnight before he decided to take his ball and go home, so fair enough.

Have at it.

 

[Matty~!]

Indy buzz has always been a killer despite perceptions having been changed. Foley had a huge indy buzz going into WCW in 1989 and then that fizzled out. His indy buzz again was huge when he returnedin 1991 and that time he succeeded. He once again had massive buzz in 1995 / 1996 from ECW which was nothing more than a glorified indy at the time and he was repackaged in WWF with the Mankind deal. Which in the end worked out great, it was seen as a kiss of death at the time.

However ECW talent in general always had the glorified indy deal from Public Enemy (who in fairness weren't great) Al Snow (who was fantastic) Taz who was mediocre at best outside of Heyman's grasp. Then the dudleys struggled like hell until WWE realised they could not push them..

Thats where I get to Punk he was so huge to a certain set of fans that WWE couldn't help but push him, he was the first of the current or maybe last indy generation to get a push. You look at Paul London, Brian Kendrick, Colt Cabana etc. All great independent talent didn't get the shot they should have in the WWE especially Cabana who is a superstar waiting to happen if you ask me.

End of the day WWE will push who they want to push, it can work out great that way sometimes in terms of The Rock and HHH back in the day, opposite side of the coin it can be awful like Ahmed Johnson (who personally I think was so bad he was great to watch) I totally buy into the theory Vince has a criteria to fill and if you don't meet expectation you don't get pushed, or if you meet expectations you can get over pushed.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

In the grand scheme of things, I've never viewed being an Indie star any sort of real handicap as far as WWE goes. I think the only one that's ever really seemed to have that sort of view has been Vince and the various gaggle of yes men he's had working for him over the years. Sometimes, in my eyes, Vince has his mind set too much on the "corporate" aspects of WWE such as what WWE's image is, how they can further promote that image, what organizations they can align with to jack up media coverage, etc.

As a result, based on what HE particularly wants WWE's "image" to be, I'm sure he's overlooked or outright dismissed the notion of certain guys who could be a boon to WWE. That mind set does ultimately begin with Vince but it's one that's perpetuated by certain guys he's had working for him, like Big Johnny. He was head of talent relations for years and he'd often go for a guy based mostly on their look & presence while giving considerations such as charisma & in-ring ability less importance. Guys like Big Johnny and others in that department are the ones Vince often relied on for feedback on this guy or that guy, what do you think about this guy I heard about, etc.

With Triple H ultimately being in charge of talent relations and WWE's development system, being a star in the independent scene doesn't have nearly the same stigma it once did. Triple H is a wrestling guy, a wrestling guy whose always been passionate and knows that there's a lot of talent out there in the Indie scene. Otherwise, he wouldn't have signed guys like Cesaro, Ohno, Zayn and others. Vince isn't a wrestler and Big Johnny hadn't been since the very early 2000s or late 1990s. Triple H has been very much in the mix of things all this time and, frankly, I think it's given him a kind of perspective on things that Vince just simply can't have. Vince ultimately makes the call but, all in all, he certainly trusts Triple H and that's been a good thing for WWE thus far.

At the same time, however, it's understandable if someone sort of rolls their eyes sometimes when they hear buzz about someone on the independent scene. It seems that damn near every guy with any degree of buzz on the Indie circuit has a cult of devoted, hardcore fans proclaiming him to be the greatest of all time.

 

[Lord_Frish]

The problem for Indie Wrestlers is that they will always be available. Like Daniel Bryan has reminded us so many times, if he were fired he would be wrestling in the indies the next day. If Brock Lesnar was fired back in 2002 he would have stopped wrestling and join the UFC anyway, if Batista were fired he would have gone onto MMA or more likely movies as he already has done. Basically these are take it or leave it opportunities. Someone like Daniel Bryan is a person who can be fired and rehired because he will always be a wrestler. The same can be said of most indie wrestlers.

So it isn't that WWE dislikes indie wrestlers, it is these special cases like Lesnar and so on that they have to use and use fast or they risk missing out on them entirely. The ones that could succeed outside of wrestling or could make a lot of money in wrestling.

 

[Trill Co$by]

Before I begin, I'd like to point out that you missed Adrian Neville/Pac. I'd say Xavier Woods, but he's been in WWE's development far too long to still be considered an indy guy. Nonetheless, here's my retort.

Possibly the reason why these "indy wrestlers" are so highly regarded in the WWE is because unlike these new talents coming in, these guys have already worked for years. They're far more mature than a lot of these NXT prospects, and push come to shove, they can sort of be tutors for the new prospects. Ohno, for example, may not be star quality in your eyes but he sure can go in the ring. And he has a wide knowledge of ring skills that many will never know. Having him train someone like Andy Levine would've done wonders for him.

Then you have the fact that they're also recognizable. A common flaw that people mention about IWC [the people who know these indy guys the most] is that they throw around that "15% average" like it's a fact. And even if it is, that same 15% is going to add 15% more of a reaction than not having it. Simply put, with 15% of an audience knowing who, say Sammi Zayn is upon debut. That will soon get more impressionable people like little kids to also recognize them more. It's a long shot, but it works.

So to that extent, I agree that being an indy guy isn't a crutch. More so, being an indy spot monkey [I'm looking at you, Evan Bourne] is a crutch. I'm not sure why people complain about it being a crutch. It's actually been the reason why so many guys have come to be such big names in the WWE in recent times.

 

[Toroc102]

I'd say that working the Indy's was never necessarily a detriment to one's career, its just that it isn't really a positive either. For instance a NCAA champion or a College Football player is more complished in the eyes of the WWE than the ROH World Champion or te champ of some other iny org.

The real problem isn't that their indy guys, its most guys who work the indies are real wrestling fans, and most real wrestling fans aren't that big. You look at a lot of the biggest stars in the sport for the past 30 years a lot of them we're athletes before they joined the WWE. Hogan, Sting, Warrior were all bodybuilders that were able to make much more money in wrestling. Guys like Batista and Lesnar didn't have to work the indies. They signed Lesnar right out of college(to a big contract) based on size and reputation. Batista never worked an indy in is life. He was most likely hired based on look alone.

Guys like Batista don't need to work the Indy's and that goes for back in the day to. Scott Hall was recruited from a gym by Barry Windham based on look. Look up a lot of the big stars in wrestling. Its surprising how many of their stories start with "so and so saw me at the gym/bouncing and told me I should give wrestling a try."

Anybody that played NFL football is probably not going to have to work the indys. Remember that report a few months back about the WWE striking up a partnership with the NFL to guide former NFL players into wrestling after their career is over?

The real thing that holds Indy guys back is their size. Most of them aren't that big and WWE rarely pushes big guys, but if for some reason a guy that looked like Batista was working the Indy's you better believe Vince wouldn't be like "oh I love that guy but he works the indy's, I'm not gonna touch him."

 

[Joker Ambrose]

I think in previous years it was a handicap. Because everyone knows wwe likes to home grow their talent. Now that has changed since the success of an individual named CM Punk and now Daniel Bryan. I think wwe is going crazy over indie talent as they are still signing new guys and training them but now they are much more open minded and understand that these individuals have been on indies for years and have improved their skills and harnessed their potential and talent. These guys can be bough in and not have to be kept into their development for long as they have the basic skills. They just have to be given time to adjusted to work wwe crowd and programming.

 

[#tamale]

The real problem isn't that their indy guys, its most guys who work the indies are real wrestling fans, and most real wrestling fans aren't that big. You look at a lot of the biggest stars in the sport for the past 30 years a lot of them we're athletes before they joined the WWE.

You either love wrestling or you give up on it. Brock Lesnar is as much of fan of wrestling as Daniel Bryan, it's just that Brock loves it in his own way.

Batista never worked an indy in is life. He was most likely hired based on look alone.

And Batista became one of the biggest stars in the WWE.

Guys like Batista don't need to work the Indy's and that goes for back in the day to. Scott Hall was recruited from a gym by Barry Windham based on look. Look up a lot of the big stars in wrestling.

You know all the shit Scott Hall and Kevin Nash had to go through before they even got a chance with the WWE?

Anybody that played NFL football is probably not going to have to work the indys. Remember that report a few months back about the WWE striking up a partnership with the NFL to guide former NFL players into wrestling after their career is over?

If a guy can learn how to be good in the ring, develop a great character, entertain, and draw money, I could give a shit where they come from.

If Tim Tebow were to sign with WWE tomorrow, I would be ecstatic.

The real thing that holds Indy guys back is their size. Most of them aren't that big and WWE rarely pushes big guys, but if for some reason a guy that looked like Batista was working the Indy's you better believe Vince wouldn't be like "oh I love that guy but he works the indy's, I'm not gonna touch him."

This right here is the other part I wanted to touch on Uncle Sam's great thread; the myth of the big guys getting pushes.

Ryback, Big E Langston, Antonio Cesaro, big guys right? Plagued by erratic booking.

Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Cody Rhodes, Dean Ambrose, Seth Rollins, Bo Dallas, Sami Zayn, etc., not big guys and have had strong booking for a while now. Randy Orton doesn't fit the mold of "big guy" and he's had strong booking in 2013.

Brock Lesnar is a very unique performer and he at times gets questionable booking. John Cena just lost the WWE Championship clean to Daniel Bryan. Sheamus has been out with an injury, and Roman Reigns is tremendous in The Shield.

Doesn't matter where you come from or if your physical appearance isn't that of someone like Batista, if you are entertaining, the WWE will push you.

 

[Wald]

It is and it isn't an issue. I don't think the WWE has ever turned up the chance to sign a guy they see money in purely because he came from the indies. That said I do see why Indy fans are paranoid about the WWE, because the WWE do change their favourites when they get called up.

I think CM Punk told the story of HBK and Triple H telling him he didn't know how to work because he didn't know how to work the WWE way when he came up from ROH and I think that's what the WWE don't appreciate about the indies. They see the indies as spot monkeys who can't tell a story and to an extent they're right. The WWE works a slower pace (for a reason) and works more on wrestlers performing signature maneuvers at specific points of a match than the indies would. Even Daniel Bryan now works this way.

So in a way the WWE does hold the indy style as being a handicap, but I don't think they hold grudges against Indy wrestlers.

 

[Matty~!]

Bastista may have never worked (I'm sure he probably did prior to OVW but there's no evidence) however, working OVW during the early 2000's was better than working independents. They ran weekly television, house shows and supercards that were given special billing by the network they were on in Louisville. I know Batista downplayed it's importance in his development, it made too many other guys not to have a factor in his success.

The NFL link only works when guys don't make it in the NFL and are looking for career opportunities elsewhere. If any major players make the leap it would be a huge news story and truly shocking. Pro wrestling has a huge history in being a good career for college football players it's not a modern day thing. Pretty much everyone out of Amarillo in the mid to later 60's had played at West Texas State.

Ryback, Big E Langston, Antonio Cesaro, big guys right? Plagued by erratic booking.

Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Cody Rhodes, Dean Ambrose, Seth Rollins, Bo Dallas, Sami Zayn, etc., not big guys and have had strong booking for a while now. Randy Orton doesn't fit the mold of "big guy" and he's had strong booking in 2013.

That's the first time I've ever seen Cesaro labelled as a big guy he maybe 6'5 but he's what 230? Surely if he qualifies Orton would do as well at 6'4 and 245? Cesaro nor Orton for that matter wrestle like a big guys in the way Ryback, Big E or the muscle heads of the past do.

Everyone is plagued by erratic booking too it's not just confined to the big guys or small guys, it's also not confined to wins and losses either, because a lot of the time wins and losses in the current booking philosophy mean diddly squat.

Doesn't matter where you come from or if your physical appearance isn't that of someone like Batista, if you are entertaining, the WWE will push you.

I beg to differ and his name is Colt Cabana! The guy has a good build, is a good hand in the ring and can talk his socks off, did he get a proper shot though?

 

[Toroc102]

You either love wrestling or you give up on it. Brock Lesnar is as much of fan of wrestling as Daniel Bryan, it's just that Brock loves it in his own way.


And Batista became one of the biggest stars in the WWE.



You know all the shit Scott Hall and Kevin Nash had to go through before they even got a chance with the WWE?

This right here is the other part I wanted to touch on Uncle Sam's great thread; the myth of the big guys getting pushes.

Ryback, Big E Langston, Antonio Cesaro, big guys right? Plagued by erratic booking.

Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Cody Rhodes, Dean Ambrose, Seth Rollins, Bo Dallas, Sami Zayn, etc., not big guys and have had strong booking for a while now. Randy Orton doesn't fit the mold of "big guy" and he's had strong booking in 2013.

Brock Lesnar is a very unique performer and he at times gets questionable booking. John Cena just lost the WWE Championship clean to Daniel Bryan. Sheamus has been out with an injury, and Roman Reigns is tremendous in The Shield.

Doesn't matter where you come from or if your physical appearance isn't that of someone like Batista, if you are entertaining, the WWE will push you.

For one thing you seem to have gathered that I don't like guys like Batista and Brock and even Ryback or Langston. Not true.

Also, Brock did give up on wrestling. He quit on the WWE and tried like three other things before he couldn't compete in the UFC and decided to come back. From everything I've read about him Brock might like the business but he doesn't love it, but again that's neither here nor there.

"Hall began his career in 1984 in Championship Wrestling from Florida (CWF) and soon began a feud with Dusty Rhodes" Not exactly slumming it is it? Kevin Nash debuted in WcW. Not slumming it was he?

Ryback got a title shot within like 5 months of his debut. I can't speak on Big E because I really haven't seen him much, but remember how terrible guys like Exekiel Jackson and Mason Ryan were. They got chance after chance after chance. If Daniel Bryan were that terrible he wouldn't even have made it on the indies.

"Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Cody Rhodes, Dean Ambrose, Seth Rollins, Bo Dallas, Sami Zayn, etc., not big guys and have had strong booking for a while now. Randy Orton doesn't fit the mold of "big guy" and he's had strong booking in 2013."

I'm not even going to mention Sami Zayn or Bo Dallas, they haven't even debuted on WWE TV so I don't know why your mentioning them. But basically you are missing the entire point. If you don't think that big guys or guys with the look(Orton would fall under that category, not the big man category)have an advantage over someone like DBry or Cody Rhodes you're nuts. There are no better examples than guys like Ryback, Ezekiel Jackson, and Mason Ryan. Ezekiel and Mason were two of the worst wrestlers I've ever seen both on the mic and in the ring and they got WAY more chances than most people will get.

 

[Matty~!]

For one thing you seem to have gathered that I don't like guys like Batista and Brock and even Ryback or Langston. Not true.

Also, Brock did give up on wrestling. He quit on the WWE and tried like three other things before he couldn't compete in the UFC and decided to come back. From everything I've read about him Brock might like the business but he doesn't love it, but again that's neither here nor there.

"Hall began his career in 1984 in Championship Wrestling from Florida (CWF) and soon began a feud with Dusty Rhodes" Not exactly slumming it is it? Kevin Nash debuted in WcW. Not slumming it was he?

Ryback got a title shot within like 5 months of his debut. I can't speak on Big E because I really haven't seen him much, but remember how terrible guys like Exekiel Jackson and Mason Ryan were. They got chance after chance after chance. If Daniel Bryan were that terrible he wouldn't even have made it on the indies.

"Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Cody Rhodes, Dean Ambrose, Seth Rollins, Bo Dallas, Sami Zayn, etc., not big guys and have had strong booking for a while now. Randy Orton doesn't fit the mold of "big guy" and he's had strong booking in 2013."

I'm not even going to mention Sami Zayn or Bo Dallas, they haven't even debuted on WWE TV so I don't know why your mentioning them. But basically you are missing the entire point. If you don't think that big guys or guys with the look(Orton would fall under that category, not the big man category)have an advantage over someone like DBry or Cody Rhodes you're nuts. There are no better examples than guys like Ryback, Ezekiel Jackson, and Mason Ryan. Ezekiel and Mason were two of the worst wrestlers I've ever seen both on the mic and in the ring and they got WAY more chances than most people will get.

I believe you maybe putting a bit too much faith in wikipedia there for Scott Hall's debut. By 1984 Dusty would have been booking for Crockett and not on Florida TV that much if at all.. Plus if you look at the end of that paragraph on Hall's wiki entry it states...

Here, they debuted as American Starship (Hall as "Starship Coyote" and Spivey as "Starship Eagle").[1][4] They wore furry boots, bright masks and began matches with a t-shirt ripping routine (similar to Hulk Hogan's).

Assuming if any of this is true, Hall had a gimmick somewhere between Bruiser Brody and Hulk Hogan in a promotion that was heading down hill, sounds like a great way to start your career.

I know for sure Hall had a decent run in the AWA in the late 80's but once again the promotion was falling to bits and they were desperate for talent. When Hall and Nash surfaced in WCW in the early 90's Hall was the Diamond Studd which went absolutely nowhere. Nash was the Oz and the equally as bad Vinnie Vegas both gimmick went nowhere. Even their initial WWF runs weren't as true headliners, Hall was brought in as a fall guy for Flair. And Nash was wearing a very 90's esque shell suit as Diesel and not looking anything at all like the vintage version everyone remembers.

 

[Toroc102]

Most sites I've gone too mention the Dusty Rhodes feud before the Coyote gimmick. I'm going to go back and listen to his Austin podcast to see if I can get more clarification out of that.

I think one thing that should be mentioned is that the Indies are in no way comparable to the territories. It was a whole different way of thinking. Even when they were going downhill territories still had a lot more recognition than Indies do, some(possibly delusional)people thought that being associated with the NWA was better back in the day than being associated with the WWE. Remember in the 80's certain places regions didn't get WWF TV as ludicrous as that may sound. Today WWE is on in every market and the Indies might not be on in the city that they are located on. The two aren't comparable.

The territories were in competition with Vince, the only company that anyone could say is even remotely in competition with the E these days is TNA. All other American wrestling promotions are feeder systems at best.

 

[Matty~!]

You are right in your summation that the territories in their dying days were probably still bigger than TNA has ever been in terms over drawing audiences to their shows, although with the exception of JCP, UWF and possibly AWA none were probably getting the TV ratings TNA get due to the regional thing at the time.

 

[#tamale]

That's the first time I've ever seen Cesaro labelled as a big guy he maybe 6'5 but he's what 230? Surely if he qualifies Orton would do as well at 6'4 and 245? Cesaro nor Orton for that matter wrestle like a big guys in the way Ryback, Big E or the muscle heads of the past do.

Everyone is plagued by erratic booking too it's not just confined to the big guys or small guys, it's also not confined to wins and losses either, because a lot of the time wins and losses in the current booking philosophy mean diddly squat.

Does Cesaro have the physique that Vince supposedly loves? I would say so. More than Orton.

Has anybody been plagued by erratic booking more than Ryback or completely mishandled such as Big E Langston in the past year?

Wins and losses do matter. Cody Rhodes was jobbing to Sheamus earlier this year and people could not give a fuck about him. He turns face, starts winning matches, and becomes someone of note in the WWE.

I beg to differ and his name is Colt Cabana! The guy has a good build, is a good hand in the ring and can talk his socks off, did he get a proper shot though?

For each one of your "Colt Cabanas" there is Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, The Shield, The Wyatts, Sami Zayn, and I could keep on going.

For one thing you seem to have gathered that I don't like guys like Batista and Brock and even Ryback or Langston. Not true.

Never said or thought that.

Also, Brock did give up on wrestling. He quit on the WWE and tried like three other things before he couldn't compete in the UFC and decided to come back. From everything I've read about him Brock might like the business but he doesn't love it, but again that's neither here nor there.

He gave up on the WWE brand, not wrestling in general. He did go and wrestle in New Japan for about two years becoming the IWGP Champion. He was the UFC Heavyweight Champion. The only thing he didn't succeed in after his initial WWE run was the NFL.

"Hall began his career in 1984 in Championship Wrestling from Florida (CWF) and soon began a feud with Dusty Rhodes" Not exactly slumming it is it? Kevin Nash debuted in WcW. Not slumming it was he?

Context. Kevin Nash was an LOD imposter, OZ, and a mediocre version of Diesel. It took Nash less time to find success, but they did try to chase him out of the business.

Scott Hall was mid-carder for life personified before Razor Ramon came along. I could start off playing basketball against Lebron James, that does not make me someone of his caliber.

Ryback got a title shot within like 5 months of his debut. I can't speak on Big E because I really haven't seen him much, but remember how terrible guys like Exekiel Jackson and Mason Ryan were. They got chance after chance after chance. If Daniel Bryan were that terrible he wouldn't even have made it on the indies.

Again, context. Ryback received that title shot because he was over, John Cena was injured, and they needed a viable opponent for CM Punk. He would have won that match had The Rock not announced his title match at the Royal Rumble. And after that, what happened to Ryback, he lost to The Shield, John Cena, Punk (again), Mark Henry, was that whole "Cryback" debacle, until they finally found this bully character and Heyman for him.

What have Mason Ryan and Ezekiel Jackson ever done? I hardly remember them getting chance after chance, only a slight push for Ezekiel Jackson that happened about a million years ago.

I'm not even going to mention Sami Zayn or Bo Dallas, they haven't even debuted on WWE TV so I don't know why your mentioning them. But basically you are missing the entire point. If you don't think that big guys or guys with the look(Orton would fall under that category, not the big man category)have an advantage over someone like DBry or Cody Rhodes you're nuts. There are no better examples than guys like Ryback, Ezekiel Jackson, and Mason Ryan. Ezekiel and Mason were two of the worst wrestlers I've ever seen both on the mic and in the ring and they got WAY more chances than most people will get.

Why do I mention them? Sami Zayn and Bo Dallas are already on WWE TV (NXT) and they are the biggest NXT stars at the moment. They are already working the house shows.

Again what chances did Jackson get aside from a small push? In fact, Cody Rhodes beat him for the Intercontiental Championship and went on to have a long reign. Mason Ryan was just a part of New Nexus and has done nothing of note since.

 

[Matty~!]

I would say that Orton is more muscular now that he's ever been before, having just viewed the HHH documentary it is amazing really how much mass he's put on since his earliest Evolution days, therefore I would say he has a build Vince likes as well. My whole point about Cesaro is that he's not overtly muscular or overweight for his height, he's a solid 230. He's not the stereotypical big man that Vince likes had he been he would of been picked up a lot sooner than he was in my opinion. And you really are splitting hairs if you wouldn't class Orton and Cesaro in the same bracket for the sake of an inch in heigh and Orton being heavier.

 

[Toroc102]

He gave up on the WWE brand, not wrestling in general. He did go and wrestle in New Japan for about two years becoming the IWGP Champion. He was the UFC Heavyweight Champion. The only thing he didn't succeed in after his initial WWE run was the NFL.


Context. Kevin Nash was an LOD imposter, OZ, and a mediocre version of Diesel. It took Nash less time to find success, but they did try to chase him out of the business.

Scott Hall was mid-carder for life personified before Razor Ramon came along. I could start off playing basketball against Lebron James, that does not make me someone of his caliber.

Again, context. Ryback received that title shot because he was over, John Cena was injured, and they needed a viable opponent for CM Punk. He would have won that match had The Rock not announced his title match at the Royal Rumble. And after that, what happened to Ryback, he lost to The Shield, John Cena, Punk (again), Mark Henry, was that whole "Cryback" debacle, until they finally found this bully character and Heyman for him.

What have Mason Ryan and Ezekiel Jackson ever done? I hardly remember them getting chance after chance, only a slight push for Ezekiel Jackson that happened about a million years ago.



Why do I mention them? Sami Zayn and Bo Dallas are already on WWE TV (NXT) and they are the biggest NXT stars at the moment. They are already working the house shows.

Again what chances did Jackson get aside from a small push? In fact, Cody Rhodes beat him for the Intercontiental Championship and went on to have a long reign. Mason Ryan was just a part of New Nexus and has done nothing of note since.

Dude was in WCW at the time which was crap. Everybody had a bad gimmick at the time. Vince got Kevin Nash an within 2 years he was the champ. -

Your metaphor about Lebron James makes no sense. A good one would be to like if some guy made his MMA debut against Anderson Silva. Which would never happen in a real sport. If pro wrestling were real, Scott Hall would never be in a match with Dusty Rhodes in his first year.

I won't argue with Ryback getting the shot because he was pretty over, but if anyone sucked half as bad as Ezekiel Jackson or Mason Ryan and looked like Daniel Bryan they wouldn't even be on TV. Mason Ryan is injury prone and he sucks at almost every part of wrestling and he's still employed. Ezekiel Jackson is a little better but he sucks pretty bad too. He is employed on look alone. Even if someone looked like Cesaro or Orton and they were as bad as these two they would've been gone long ago.

I'm sorry I don't count NXT as real WWE TV. If it doesn't air nationally on an actual television set(not only on the internet or only in Florida) I don't count it.