Arizona Immigration Law: An abomination or something we need more of?

[Jack-Hammer]

Earlier this week, the Governor of Arizona signed into law what's said to be the single toughest step towards fighting illegal immigration of any state in the United States. I'm not up to speck on all the specifics of the law, but I know that the law would require the police to inquire about the immigration status of men and women that are suspected of committing crimes and have been stopped or detained for sufficient probable cause. The law would require that the police be shown proof that they're in the country legally including any number of legal documents, proof of a work visa, green card, or whatever.

Now, unsurprisingly, the majority of the Hispanic community in Arizona and throughout much of the rest of the country are up in arms over this law. It's gotten quite heated in Arizona especially since about a third of the population is Hispanic. Critics of the law say that it will result in racial profiling, that it's unconstitutional and that the law in and of itself violates certain federal laws and statutes. All this week, all the major news networks have shown footage of marches and protests all over the country in which the vast majority of those involved are Hispanic.

The debate over illegal immigration in the United States has been among the most heated in the country, particularly over this past decade. In the wake of 9/11, the division has only grown more so as the 9/11 attacks were able to demonstrate just how vulnerable America is and just how laughable national intelligence and overall security agencies in the country are and have been for quite a while.

I've heard it said on CNN in the past that between 2 and 3 million immigrants enter the U.S. through Mexico illegally each year and, if you really think about it, that can be kind of alarming. I don't claim to be an expert on all the ins and outs of this issue, but I really don't see how tougher laws against illegal immigration is a bad thing. After all, it's not as if we enforce many of the policies that we already have. The impact that illegal immigration has on American taxpayers is enormous. Many of the illegals are afforded aid that legalized American citizens are ineligible for and it costs taxpayers billions each year. However, the thing that really worries me is that crossing into the United States via the Mexican border illegally is an ideal way for those that mean harm to the United States to enter undeteced and stay under the radar. However, the thing that constantly irks me is the fact that the race card is thrown up whenever this subject comes about. In a nutshell, you have many within the Latino community call you racist if you're for tougher immigration laws. I feel that's one reason why this country just isn't able to move forward. Instead of talking about the issues concerning such legislation, instead of going over the impact illegal immigration has on the country, someone screams racism because it's easier and because everyone is afraid of being labeled a racist. I know I am, it's downright nasty to be called a racist when you're not one.

For me, the issue isn't about race, it's about security. I'd feel the exact same way if we shared a border with Great Britain and Brits were entering the U.S. illegally by the hundreds of thousands or millions every year. Now, while I do personally believe that the majority of those heading into the U.S. are simply looking for a better life, there's no way to tell unless who they are and what they're actually doing in the country is a matter of record with state and/or federal authorities. I understand the philisophical rhetoric behind the "we're all immigrants" stance because it's true. Everyone currently in the U.S. is desceneded from immigrants that came to the U.S. seeking better lives. However, the problem is that we live in a different time. We live in a world in which there are many around the world that would love to cause the United States harm. Nobody thought September 11th would happen, but it did. So what if illegals or groups of them crossed the border with the intention to...I dunno, head to San Francisco, get as much C-4 explosive as they can and take out the Golden Gate Bridge? Sure, it's highly unlikely, but I'd rather my government do everything it possibly could to ensure something like that doesn't happen. Stricter laws would be a good tool to use as a means of helping to ensure that something like this doesn't happen and could potentially save who knows how much money each year.

So, what does everyone think?

 

[SalvIsWin]

As far as I understand, the bill makes it a crime if you cannot produce proof of citizenship when in legitimate contact with a state authority. From that I assume it means if you're dealing with an officer or authority of the state for what ever reason, pulled over, questioned over a crime, if they have reason to suspect you're an illegal immigrant, they can ask to see proof of citizenship. Also, if there is probable cause for an officer to believe that you have committed an offense that would make you eligible to be removed from the USA. There are other provisions, but these are the big ones as far as I know.

I too have a problem with this because it's essentially giving a police officer the authority to question you about your citizenship at any time. If an officer truly wanted to, they could have 'legitimate contact' with you at any time they wish. I think the reason this is controversial among minorities, especially Hispanics, is because it's not a requirement to ask all people for their proof of citizenship, only those who are to be suspected of being an illegal alien. I highly doubt officers are going to question white males or females about the status of their citizenship, this is a law that is directly going to influence Hispanics and their rights.

As far as I understand, if you're trespassing and the police question you and you're Hispanic, they can ask for your proof of citizenship, and promptly arrest you if you do not have it, I doubt the same would happen for a white person trespassing. If the bill stated that upon arrest you are now going to be asked to produce proof of your citizenship, either if it's on you, or that you're spouse or whomever would have to bring it down for you, I wouldn't have a problem, that would be fair and equal to all citizens. However the wording itself of this bill makes it clear to me at least that Hispanics will not be open to harassment that other races most likely will not bill, or at least exposed to a higher portion of harassment.

 

[Kenny Powers]

I think its an invasion of privacy and human rights. This is just like Nazi Germany with the Nazis extraditing and segregating every citizen due to race, creed, or sexual orientation.

My spouse is Latino and we had to go through hell and more just so she could become a US citizen. It was easier for me since I was in the military when we married. There are so many people that are denied daily into this country. Most of the people that try to come here illegally are killed before they even reach the border.

A lot of people not only Latinos are upset about his bill, even the local policeman. Instead of the police taking care of business stopping a murder or robber they have to check Joe Blow's papers because a nosy neighbor called suspecting him of being an illegal immigrant. It isn't fair and it segregates the community. How many white people will be asked for their identification anyways?

This is like Neo McCarthyism. Instead of accusing every one of being Nazi's were accusing everyone of being illegal immigrants. This Immigration law is really just an excuse to "take our country back" or to kick out anyone from other countries we don't like. It's pathetic.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

I wouldn't be surprised if the law gets thrown out. This law is a potential violation of Invasion of Privacy laws and a potential for major racial profiling. There HAS to be a better way to fight illegal immigration than this.

 

[secret titan]

I think its an invasion of privacy and human rights. This is just like Nazi Germany with the Nazis extraditing and segregating every citizen due to race, creed, or sexual orientation.

Let's not get carried away. This law is in no way shape or form trying to kill off all illegal immigrants, or even put them in conccentration camps. It would only be a minor inconvenience to the people asked to show proof. Yes, it may require profiling, but it also prevents anyone here illegally from stealing the services offered to the legal citizens.

My spouse is Latino and we had to go through hell and more just so she could become a US citizen. It was easier for me since I was in the military when we married. There are so many people that are denied daily into this country. Most of the people that try to come here illegally are killed before they even reach the border.

What hell would you say? Was it that you had to learn about America, even more than the average citizens know?

Maybe I'm just not as familiar with immigration laws, but if I had millions of people coming to a country I was in charge of, I'd definitely make it hard to become a citizen just so people would have to prove they truely wanted to be here.

A lot of people not only Latinos are upset about his bill, even the local policeman. Instead of the police taking care of business stopping a murder or robber they have to check Joe Blow's papers because a nosy neighbor called suspecting him of being an illegal immigrant. It isn't fair and it segregates the community. How many white people will be asked for their identification anyways?

If a neighbor calls the police about a suspected illegal immigrant, it's not really any different than when that same nosy neighbor calls and complains about noise, or anything else. Since they police would be coming to your home, you should have the proof you'd need to have them just leave.

This is like Neo McCarthyism. Instead of accusing every one of being Nazi's were accusing everyone of being illegal immigrants. This Immigration law is really just an excuse to "take our country back" or to kick out anyone from other countries we don't like. It's pathetic.

This isn't so much "taking our country back" as it is keeping our country. This law isn't about kicking people out from countries we don't like, it's about making people do it the legal way and stopping the flood of illegal immigrants from stealing from this country.


Plus, this law isn't really that intrusive.

Police ask for proof that you are here legally.
You show it.
They leave.

It's not going to cause that much of a problem for anyone that isn't here illegally.

 

[The Big Gunnzbowski]

Do you guys even realize what started this? What got this bill into motion? The Arizona Government jumping the gun due to pressure from the Caucasian community. A rancher was shot and killed on his own land, presumably by an illegal immigrant. What they're not really mentioning is that Illegal Aliens do not carry weapons. This murder was committed by a drug smuggler who was caught off guard, who then RETURNED to Mexico. This happened in my home town, and while yes, it's a tragedy, a whole race has been singled out here. The Federal Government has already stated that it plans to sue the state of Arizona over this legislation. This same governor just recently signed a bill making it legal to carry a concealed weapon in Arizona without a permit or training. And just this week, she made it illegal for Schools to allow ethnic group to participate in "Ethnic Study" classes. Does anybody see a pattern here?

And to comment on some of the other things said by some people here... Someone mentioned them "stealing" from our country... These illegal immigrants that are earning paychecks, having taxes taken out by the state/federal governments are not getting returns at the end of the year like the rest of you. Nope... Those funds go right back to the government... So for every 2 Billion dollars in unpaid medical bills they leave behind, the government is keeping 4 Billion dollars in irreclaimable tax dollars. Is it the Immigrants' fault that the government isn't sending the money back to the places that were affected by it? Hospitals, Schools, etc... And until you know what the "legal way" is for becoming a citizen, you should probably research it. It can take up to 2-3 years for an application to go through. It can cost upwards of 5 to 10,000.00 assuming you hire a lawyer, because that's really your only chance anymore. The United States used to be about pursuing the "American Dream"... A beacon of hope for the rest of the world... What they apparently left out, was that there was a quota. People mention Ellis Island, where they basically just opened the gates and said come on in! Now they're putting up walls and saying Get the F!CK out! It makes little sense... There is a better way of going about it, but everybody feels that their entitled to something, and nobody can seem to agree on what...

 

[FromTheSouth]

Illegals get paid undocumented cash, not taxed paychecks. For one, to tax a paycheck, an employer has to list a tax payer ID, which is only for people legally here. The "taxes" that the left claims illegals pay are nothing more than sales and sin taxes. They do not pay FICA or federal income tax.

I have no problem with the law whatsoever. It states that an officer has to have probable cause to even inquire about immigration status. They can't just walk up to any person and ask for their papers. For the record, police are required to use judgment everyday, and this is nothing more than another judgment call. People who oppose this law, do so because they are told what police could do, in theory and are protesting without seeing the bill in action. Like I said, cause is needed, and officers determine whether or not cause is present in every situation they encounter. Why is this one judgment any different. Police could claim cause and invade every home looking for drugs, and they don't do that. Why is it assumed that this law will suddenly cause cops to abuse their duty bound rights when, for the most part, they don't already.

Furthermore, illegals are criminals the second they cross the border. Why should we not enforce the laws already on the books? There is a process to get into this nation. Those who do not follow the process shouldn't be here.

Also, the Mexican-Americans protesting the law need do nothing more than carry some ID. That shouldn't be considered a big inconvenience.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

The biggest issue I have with the idea of "racial" profiling is the fact that the law isn't build to single out a "race," it's designed to single out illegal immigrants from Mexico, who coincidentally, are all of one race. People fixate on the race issues because it's a devisive issue, and because it enables a political party to put a dent in the other.

I completely respect the feeling of the Hispanic People here as well. I understand they will feel, and probably be, profiled. But at the same time, anybody can be stopped by a police officer and be required to identify themselves. And how out of hand is the immigration issue in this country? It's pretty bad.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

I think this type of law would work better in a state that doesn't have an historically established Latin American population. Doesn't Arizona already have one of the largest Latin American populations in the US (please correct me if I'm wrong here)?

I'm part Latin American myself, and I can understand the opposition to this law, but I think it's a step in the right direction of where America's stance on illegal immigration should be heading. Obviously, it's a bit extreme, but, I almost feel to be necessary: some sort of compromise will result and finally something will be done about a problem that we have yet to sufficiently address.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I think this type of law would work better in a state that doesn't have an historically established Latin American population. Doesn't Arizona already have one of the largest Latin American populations in the US (please correct me if I'm wrong here)?

One of the top three, along side California and Texas.

I'm part Latin American myself, and I can understand the opposition to this law, but I think it's a step in the right direction of where America's stance on illegal immigration should be heading. Obviously, it's a bit extreme, but, I almost feel to be necessary: some sort of compromise will result and finally something will be done about a problem that we have yet to sufficiently address.

The other side of the issue is the fact that people seem to think that people who are anti illegal-immigrant are anti-Hispanic / Latino. It's like the idea that someone who is pro-choice is pro-abortion. These little leaps of faith or logical progressions madden me.

I have a terrific relationship with my State Hispanic Chamber of Commerce as a result of my work with them. My issue, like the politicians in AZ, isn't the Hispanic population. It's the way it's gone about.

Like most Americans, I have no issue with immigrants who go through the naturalization process and pay taxes.

I DO have an issue with a nationwide 10% unemployment rate while illegal immigrants are paid cash, send their children to our public schools where laws dictate that their children MUST be educated (which drains funds from the taxes their parents don't contribute to), and then school budgets fail because the illegal immigrant parents of the students cannot vote in the referendums and school district budget elections. The result? Substandard schools packed with students getting a free ride while tax paying citizens and resident aliens foot the bill.

 

[The Big Gunnzbowski]

Illegals get paid undocumented cash, not taxed paychecks. For one, to tax a paycheck, an employer has to list a tax payer ID, which is only for people legally here. The "taxes" that the left claims illegals pay are nothing more than sales and sin taxes. They do not pay FICA or federal income tax.

Wrong, sir. Well, now you're right... Before though, there were millions of people working with fake social security number using fake names. It's a known fact. The ones who were receiving legit paychecks using bogus information were the ones I meant... Sorry, I didn't specify.

I have no problem with the law whatsoever. It states that an officer has to have probable cause to even inquire about immigration status. They can't just walk up to any person and ask for their papers. For the record, police are required to use judgment everyday, and this is nothing more than another judgment call. People who oppose this law, do so because they are told what police could do, in theory and are protesting without seeing the bill in action. Like I said, cause is needed, and officers determine whether or not cause is present in every situation they encounter. Why is this one judgment any different. Police could claim cause and invade every home looking for drugs, and they don't do that. Why is it assumed that this law will suddenly cause cops to abuse their duty bound rights when, for the most part, they don't already.

I'm sorry, bro... but this is where I have to stop you. If you've never been harassed by law enforcement because of the color of your skin, you can't assume you know why people are against this law. About your "Why is it assumed that this law will suddenly cause cops to abuse their duty bound rights when, for the most part, they don't already." Do you know ANYTHING about Sheriff Joe Arpaio?? Please...look him up and read about what he does. Long before this law, Joe Arpaio did what he calls "Immigration Sweeps". Raiding local businesses in Phoenix arresting undocumented aliens. Without provocation or probable cause, he would just choose a strip of businesses and raid them. If he was doing that BEFORE this law, imagine what he'll do now. In Southern Arizona, Border Patrol sets up checkpoints at choke points, stops EVERY vehicle, and only asks for ID from anybody that doesn't look White.

Furthermore, illegals are criminals the second they cross the border. Why should we not enforce the laws already on the books? There is a process to get into this nation. Those who do not follow the process shouldn't be here.

I agree...but at the same time they need to fix the broken process. It's way too complicated, takes way too long, and costs way too much.

Also, the Mexican-Americans protesting the law need do nothing more than carry some ID. That shouldn't be considered a big inconvenience.

Fair enough!

 

[Razor]

Oh geez. This is federal government land, not state land.

Prima: "But Razor! The implicit regulation of immigration isn't in the Constitution!"

Ah, and Prima, you would be right...I think. I'm pretty sure. But wait. Look at Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution.

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

Now, there is much more to the Section than that. I erased out the stuff about militias and establishing taxes (sorry Ron Paul, it's right there. The Income Tax is legal as long as its uniform throughout the entire United States.) because I didn't care about it right now and it doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.

Back to the issue, Naturalization is the action by which immigrants become American Citizens. They can still not run for President, but they will be the great, taxable sources of income that we all love to be.

Naturalization in and of itself has nothing to with the issue in debate. Until you look at the Supreme Court....

They ruled that the regulation of Naturalization also covered the regulation of immigration. As in the case of Hampton v. Mow Sun Wong, where this decision was upheld in 1976.

Since the Supreme Court is there to ultimately act and see if our laws are legal under the Constitution, they can be seen as legitimate and ultimate references when the idea of what rights and responsibilities lie in the Constitution is called into play.

With that caveat intact, it's a simple matter to deal with the Arizona immigration law. It's unconstitutional. You rarely hear of states practicing laws that take away from federal rights, in fact, it's usually the other way around. But in this case the law is an abomination of the Constitution.

As far as the beef of the law, in that the police can legally force a citizen to present papers of citizenship if there is a legitimate cause to suspect that they are an illegal citizen...there is serious fear here. Where are the blocks against abuse? A police officer can choose to single out an entire community because they look like a foreign nationality and claim that they look suspicious. Cuban immigrants in southern Florida, Mexican immigrants in Arizona, Texas, Arkansas, California, and New Mexico, or Irish immigrants in New York could be targets of unscrupulous police officers.

What will be proof enough of national citizenship? My Social Security card? Not only are those incredibly easy to fake, I don't have mine on me at all times. Not only because I don't want it stolen, but because I've memorized the number. My driver's license? Those are faked so easily 16 year olds have been getting plastered in bars for 30 years with them. Do I have to carry around an easily faked birth certificate? How about an National ID? Are we going to spend billions in a new, federally funded National ID campaign that will be a serious source of corruption and a potential source of violations of privacy?

As far as I can tell, this is just a law that says a police officer can look at someone, say "Yeah, he looks illegal" and ask for documentation. That's all fine. I'll just ignore the fact that the only other countries you hear doing this are embroiled in civil war. My issue is not only with the unconstitutionality of the law, but with the vagueness of the wording.