Are we wrong about everything? (Part 2)

[Jimmy King]

On WWE's corporate website, corporate.wwe.com, there's a statistic on the front page that's quite interesting. According to Nielsen research, OVER 78% of WWE's audience is 18 or older.

So, when people bash WWE's product and say that "The kids are ruining Cena/WWE/etc..." they're wrong, aren't they?

Before last week, a typical Raw drew 4 million viewers (I'm being a little generous.) That means that approximately 840,000 are 17 or younger. So when we think about Cena being linked to 6 year olds (not in a Polanski way,) we're wrong, aren't we? I mean, let's be honest, that means that there are less kids watching WWE than there are PEOPLE watching TNA.

My guess is that, though quite obvious, WWE isn't trying to appeal to kids. We sometimes fail to realize that they are trying to appeal to families- as a whole.

So, now, what are your thoughts on the WWE's product and TV-PG rating?

Also, the video on the corporate site is done really well.

 

[Zeven_Zion]

Well then it makes them quite dumb trying to appeal to 78% of adults with kiddy shit, no? Kiddy magazines, kiddy merchandise, kiddy Cena, kiddy segments, colorful gimmicks that only a KID would like cuz it's brainless and doesn't know what's going on, forced smiles at the kiddies by the faces. What sane 18 years old likes this? What sane 25 years old wants to see dance offs? What family likes to watch wrestling as if it was a sit-com? What the fuck is Vince trying to do? Family oriented .. pff .. IT'S WRESTLING! It's not F.R.I.E.N.D.S! Jesus Christ. If Vince can't produce a product that's compelling and brimming with exciting WRESTLING, then he should just say so, not rename his product "sports entertainment" and go running around telling people it's "entertainment" that's why an awesome match comes once in a blue moon in WWE. Didn't that guy get the memo? The most exciting thing about WRESTLING shouldn't be the promos, the gimmicks, how big your fucking titantron is, how flashy your pyro is or if there's a lonely lap top giving out orders. We watch WRESTLING for the WRESTLING. Storylines, pyro, gimmicks, promos, titantrons, production -- that should be a little extra something something to make THE WRESTLING even better, not compensate for the lack of it and shove ratings, money and numbers whenever WWE fucks up.

By the way, I liked the TNA reference. Classy. And then the TNA fans are the bad ones, right?

 

[dwith]

PG era sucks... plain and simple

If you are even close with your viewing #'s then it would be a good reason WWE's rating's have dropped, and continue to drop. If WWE doesn't get out of the pg era it will be a WCW before it's over. I used to love watching WWE back in the attitude era, great adult oriented wrestling. Now I watch it if I am bored shitless.. Nexus suck's and none of them are in the least bit interesting.

When WWE bring's back the pg-14 era I will watch it weekly again.

Oh and the WWE said it will never go back to the PG-14 again so I guess that means I won't be watching anytime soon, and I'm sure many others feel the same way, and the rating's will be down the toilet just like a big old piece of shit that it is...

very sad... for WWE

I hope it's worth it forthe McMahon's senate seat. Politic's suck

 

[JMichaels]

I think this stat simply proves people's point when they complain about the PG era. 78% of the audience are 18+, yet the programming is written to appeal to about 6-12. If 78% of your audience is 18+, shouldn't you be making stuff that appeals to THEM???

 

[The Best At What I Do]

I hate to say it but I actually with Zeven Zion for once. If the large majority of WWE's audience is in fact adults then it is just bad business marketing the large majority of their product to kids. I guess it would explain why a couple days ago their flagship show had the worst rating in 13 years. They better start changing things up before those ratings never come back.

 

[Whatsinaname696]

if that is indeed accurate, then wouldn't they slowly be losing viewers seeing as their show isn't geared towards them, Families might still tune in, sure, but that's still gonna be a drop off, and yes, politics suck

 

[PhD]

I'm glad Zeven Zion has decided to grace us with his profound knowledge of business and contemporary media. Leaving aside the actual content of WWE programming (which as a 26-year-old man with two college degrees, I find quite interesting; are you going to tell me RAW compares to, say, Spongebob Squarepants?), the WWE obviously understands that children are it's most profitable consumers.

In an era of declining PPV buyrates, ancillary revenues from T-shirts, toys, video games, etc. are a huge revenue driver. The WWE only makes something like 15% of it's revenue from TV advertising, meaning they could really probably care less about the overall composition of the at-home audience. Also, by making a "family-friendly" product, the WWE can get parents to buy 4-5 tickets, rather than relying on the single-ticket market of 20-somethings. Finally, in an era when MMA has clearly stolen the market for violent entertainment aimed at the 18-30 set, it makes absolutely no sense for the WWE to compete with a product which the ultimately can't compete with in terms of realism.

It doesn't seem super-complicated to me; no matter what portion of the home-viewing audience children actually compose (and how do you know what proportion of that 78% is parents watching with their kids?), they are by far the most important part of the company's consumer base.

And Zeven, I have to assume you were joking when you claimed that storylines were "a little extra" in addition to the wrestling. Even real sports use narrative to develop viewer interest; anyone who tells you they enjoy watching a scripted, fake fight without any sort of storyline behind it is an idiot.

 

[cbear47]

Even real sports use narrative to develop viewer interest; anyone who tells you they enjoy watching a scripted, fake fight without any sort of storyline behind it is an idiot.

Or a CZW fan. ZING!

At any rate, this whole argument is at the crux of dozens of issues right now in performance art... the idea of quality vs. what will sell and generate profits.

See, the thing is, if you make a trult quality film, or a quality wrestling show, people WILL notice. That's how ECW hung around on Paul Heyman's stolen dimes for so long... the shows had some really amazing quality to them (I know, I panned CZW and praised ECW... but the difference is STORYLINES).

Raven vs. Dreamer, how many years did that go? In an era where title reigns were shrinking, besides. IT worked, fans tuned in, but the sex and gore cost them viewers.

So WWE could be putting on high-quality stuff, and being PG (it can happen--Casablanca is a masterpiece, and a sex scene with full frontal or a bloodied corpse wouldn't add to it in any way) and Voila! they'd rock the world.

But they don't need to go hogwild to make money, so they do the minimum, and it may finally be showing up. The fans are tuning out, it would seem. Which means Vince will soon be looking to revamp again.

Which could go two ways... going full-on kiddie (the buzz over Paul Bearer and the throwback to early-90s 'Taker seems to point that would sell) or back to something harder. Or both.

And for those that say UFC has killed "realistic" wrestling... have you seen MMA? BORING. The reason Hollywood fights are choreographed is to excite you. From the Borat Naked Fight to Jet Li, it's designed to look good (or friekin hilarious) for the enjoyment of the fans.

MMA is two sweaty guys in speedos grinding it out on the mat most of the time.

EXACTLY what homophobic wrestling detractors pointed to for years. Ah, irony.

Sorry if this went long or strayed off-topic. Good thread, IMO.

 

[PhD]

Or a CZW fan. ZING!

At any rate, this whole argument is at the crux of dozens of issues right now in performance art... the idea of quality vs. what will sell and generate profits.

See, the thing is, if you make a trult quality film, or a quality wrestling show, people WILL notice. That's how ECW hung around on Paul Heyman's stolen dimes for so long... the shows had some really amazing quality to them (I know, I panned CZW and praised ECW... but the difference is STORYLINES).

Raven vs. Dreamer, how many years did that go? In an era where title reigns were shrinking, besides. IT worked, fans tuned in, but the sex and gore cost them viewers.

So WWE could be putting on high-quality stuff, and being PG (it can happen--Casablanca is a masterpiece, and a sex scene with full frontal or a bloodied corpse wouldn't add to it in any way) and Voila! they'd rock the world.

But they don't need to go hogwild to make money, so they do the minimum, and it may finally be showing up. The fans are tuning out, it would seem. Which means Vince will soon be looking to revamp again.

Which could go two ways... going full-on kiddie (the buzz over Paul Bearer and the throwback to early-90s 'Taker seems to point that would sell) or back to something harder. Or both.

And for those that say UFC has killed "realistic" wrestling... have you seen MMA? BORING. The reason Hollywood fights are choreographed is to excite you. From the Borat Naked Fight to Jet Li, it's designed to look good (or friekin hilarious) for the enjoyment of the fans.

MMA is two sweaty guys in speedos grinding it out on the mat most of the time.

EXACTLY what homophobic wrestling detractors pointed to for years. Ah, irony.

Sorry if this went long or strayed off-topic. Good thread, IMO.

Great points, cbear. At this point, I enjoy pro-wrestling a lot more than MMA just because there's never a dull moment; in the UFC, there's a fifty-fifty shot you might get a barn burner, but the rest of the time you might get a top-control snooze fest. Ultimately though, we must acknowledge that the UFC has cut heavily into pro-wrestling's historical fanbase. I have no doubt that this is a driver behind the PG-era.

And while this thread is not ostensibly about TNA, it's hard to not talk about them. Personally, there are a few things I think are great about TNA: Flair and Angle, the top few tag teams, the Knockouts that actually can wrestle (although that's mostly lost), and the use of blood/hardcore styles on occassion. However, to suggest that they represent some kind of purer, more adult alternative to the WWE is dumb; pro wrestling needs good booking to succeed.

TNA is probably more successful than ECW ever was, but that isn't saying much. Until TNA tries to develop a product that is coherent in a larger sense rather than a week to week clusterfuck with above-average wrestling, I'll save my money for Wrestlemania and ROH's iPPVs.

 

[Rckstrtmmy]

One of the reasons WWE is PG is because of Mattel. They wouldnt make their toys if they were PG13. I hope that when the contract expires and Linda McMahon loses her damn election it might go back to the way it used to be.

Also, kids might not be the biggest audience but they are responsible for getting the merchandise from their parents. Parents DO buy this stuff for their kids prolly more than us older people buy that shit for ourselves. I for one have been a fan for years. And I used to have a bunch of shirts, foam fingers, belts, toys, etc. Now I dont have a single WWE item besides the video games. The merchandise sales are a big part of WWE's revenue and their business sense is way better than we give them credit for sometimes. They know what they're doing.

 

[ilapierre]

My thoughts on WWE and its PG programming are...who cares what statistics say? Stats lie. Plain and simple. 78 percent of WWE's audience is 18 and over. Do we know this for sure? Are all 6 year olds who watch tv polled? Or are their parents who are in their 20s or 30s? Are the people who watch wrestling people who have never stopped and will never stop because they have an allegiance to the company they loved years ago? As a 29 year old, anybody under 25 is a kid to me. So what is the percentage of people between 18 and 25 watching WWE? 60? That statistic posted raises so many questions. But lets say it is exactly what it is. Doesn't that tell you that kids under 18 are a whole lot smarter than we adults make them out to be and that the dumber demographic is more likely the kids between the ages of 19 and 25 who were 8 years ago little kids loving John Cena?

It's funny how the posters who think WWE sucks seem to have a passion for great wrestling, great television, great storylines. They loved WWE but now they aren't happy and are voicing their displeasure. They want to be entertained, and they are not too stubborn enough like some people here to admit they are not, as fans, watching quality wrestling anymore. Then you have these other posters who defend WWE and would defend WWE at all costs, believing they are at war and they have to join forces to combat WWE criticizers (who often get labeled pro-TNA..even if the criticizers also hate TNA). It wouldn't matter how good or bad the product was, they defend the company as if they have a stake in it. They do admit to WWE having faults, but emotionlessly like a robot without feelings talk about the business side of what WWE is doing. They talk about how WWE is doing whats best for business even if it isn't always all that exciting to watch, they talk about how PG programming isn't all that bad and how great the wrestling is (when its not), and then go on to tell you how old they are and how many degrees they have (like that makes them a better wrestling fan). But, as a true, passionate fan, who really gives a crap what WWE is doing business wise? I mean, it is good to know why WWE does what they do and have an objective opinion on why WWE wrestling sucks hard right now. But, does a true fan really have to hold an allegiance to a promotion? So many posters here are anti-TNA or anti-WWE. Why do posters here get so offended when one or the other is criticized? Isn't wresting to be watched a couple hours a week and enjoyed? If it were exciting i'd suppose that wrestling fans would just watch their amazing shows and go on with their lives. But wrestling has been so stale for so long that wrestling fans, emotionless smarks like PhD, are entertained more by what they read here on WZ about the behind the scenes stuff and take the gossip as truth. They focus mainly on emotionlessly defending and explaining the behind the scenes business of TNA or WWE..the behind the scenes stuff they take as 100 percent truth (just like they take that 78 percent figure as absolute truth). They secretly don't like what they see on TV, but they forever defend the company they feel allegiance to and make excuses for it by explaining the business side of things they read on the Net to the passionate mark, like Zevon Zion and me. We are fans, should we not all be marks instead of know it all smarks, who love to be entertained? Shouldn't that be the whole point of wrestling, to be surprised, to know as little about the behind the scenes stuff as possible, to just enjoy or dislike what it is we see on TV each week? Wrestling should not be all about putting ourselves in the shoes of the people behind the scenes making business and booking decisions. It should just be about being a passionate fan who either loves or hates what they're being spoonfed.

 

[Whatsinaname696]

to PhD, you have two degrees? AMAZING must mean you're a genius when it comes to this, obviously you are or you wouldn't have mentioned that you had those two degrees, they must be awfully relevant (no offense on two degrees really, education means everything,but seriously?), revenue does come from a lot more than TV ad time, no doubt, but if that number continues to shrink that means something, if you have no tv time to advertise on, guess what, NONE of the other shit matters one damn bit, people didn't buy ninja turtles and power rangers cuz they looked cool (although some of the turtles figures.... anyways) they bought them because of the TV show and I know a ton of families buy their kids TNA crap for the same reason even though TNA isn't "family friendly" so thas a cop out and just plain wrong, and you seem to think MMA took a huge chunk of Wrestling fans, it did not, it took some, most can watch both, amazing I know, and you are correct on how MMA works, half the time it is shit, the other half it's great, that happens with reality which is why it doesn't really infringe on wrestling, wrestling is bout storylines sure, but no, it is about wrestling first and foremost, at least to some of us, and a good booking ensures you get your moneys worth whereas MMA CAN'T promise that in ANY way seeing as ya can't say what will happen, storylines, lights, big arenas, all great... when I was a kid and went to the circus, the atmoshpere was great, if the show wasn't though, I didn't go back (unless the cotton candy and corn dogs were fan-fuckin-tastic, even if they were killin me) MMA is NO threat to pro-wrestling jus like real wars are no threat to war movies (unless they blow up hollywood I spose) and movies are no threat to live acts or broadway (although I wouldn't mind broadway being blown up... g/f seems to like it, anyways) WWE goin PG will NOT destroy them overnight in any way, shape or form.... doesn't mean it's not gonna have a negative affect on all their business in the long run, it might not, but it isn't only possible, it's likely (and as far as TNA, they DEF have their problems, but thas not the topic of this discussion)

 

[mrbooker]

It's funny how the posters who think WWE sucks seem to have a passion for great wrestling, great television, great storylines. They loved WWE but now they aren't happy and are voicing their displeasure. They want to be entertained, and they are not too stubborn enough like some people here to admit they are not, as fans, watching quality wrestling anymore. Then you have these other posters who defend WWE and would defend WWE at all costs, believing they are at war and they have to join forces to combat WWE criticizers (who often get labeled pro-TNA..even if the criticizers also hate TNA). It wouldn't matter how good or bad the product was, they defend the company as if they have a stake in it. They do admit to WWE having faults, but emotionlessly like a robot without feelings talk about the business side of what WWE is doing. They talk about how WWE is doing whats best for business even if it isn't always all that exciting to watch, they talk about how PG programming isn't all that bad and how great the wrestling is (when its not), and then go on to tell you how old they are and how many degrees they have (like that makes them a better wrestling fan). But, as a true, passionate fan, who really gives a crap what WWE is doing business wise? I mean, it is good to know why WWE does what they do and have an objective opinion on why WWE wrestling sucks hard right now. But, does a true fan really have to hold an allegiance to a promotion? So many posters here are anti-TNA or anti-WWE. Why do posters here get so offended when one or the other is criticized? Isn't wresting to be watched a couple hours a week and enjoyed? If it were exciting i'd suppose that wrestling fans would just watch their amazing shows and go on with their lives. But wrestling has been so stale for so long that wrestling fans, emotionless smarks like PhD, are entertained more by what they read here on WZ about the behind the scenes stuff and take the gossip as truth. They focus mainly on emotionlessly defending and explaining the behind the scenes business of TNA or WWE..the behind the scenes stuff they take as 100 percent truth (just like they take that 78 percent figure as absolute truth). They secretly don't like what they see on TV, but they forever defend the company they feel allegiance to and make excuses for it by explaining the business side of things they read on the Net to the passionate mark, like Zevon Zion and me. We are fans, should we not all be marks instead of know it all smarks, who love to be entertained? Shouldn't that be the whole point of wrestling, to be surprised, to know as little about the behind the scenes stuff as possible, to just enjoy or dislike what it is we see on TV each week? Wrestling should not be all about putting ourselves in the shoes of the people behind the scenes making business and booking decisions. It should just be about being a passionate fan who either loves or hates what they're being spoonfed.

round of applause all very true statements and well said if people disagree ask yourself did you love wrestling as a kid, i dont care how old you are you most likely loved it if your on a forum and you are an adult now. Some people will say well wrestling was good when I was younger, but lets be serious when you are younger you just like wrestling not a certain company. Because its watching wrestling on your tv not about why the show is a certain way.

With that said seeing WWE is hard because people remember the history the macho man, ulitmate warrior, hogan, HBK, Rock, Austin, legion of doom, the awesome mid carders like razor ramon, mr. perfect, Bam Bam Bigalow, owen heart, british bulldog they remember those moments throught decades of time and then they see what a diluted and uncaptivating show it has become, and thats when people stop just watching and come on forums to talk about...

And then they ask around why why why is it like this now???? And then thats how the whole backstage politics, and writers, and economics gets started. Because people want to know what the hell is going on with this product that has entertained them for decades, in my case almost two decades i just turned 22 and have been watching wrestling since i can remember looking at a TV, it interest me to see how a WRESTLING fan in their 30's reacts to the WWE product now or if they a nor longer of fan of WWE, seeing as they have been around watching since the major wave of wrestling hit with Wrestlemania I.

WWE is a publicly traded company now, they have investors now, they are a business before they are a show now, its all about making profit every quartely, its no longer about trying to better yourself as a show every week.

Wrestling has changed and people are angry with it with that said, just as the poster who i quoted alluded to either like it or dont i choose not to and so have 100's of thousands on this past raw.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I don't know why anyone is so surprised by that revelation. All you have to do is look at the ratings demographics of Raw each week to know that the vast majority of WWE's audience is adult. The ones that simply have trouble believing it or don't want to believe it are the ones that have this ludicrous notion that something with a PG rating means it's "for kids" and can't be quality entertainment.

Pro wrestling in general, as I've said many times, has historically been something that's geared towards familys. If you look back all through wrestling history, even to the beginning of the territory days, wrestling audiences have been comprised of fans of all ages and from all walks of life. For some unknown reason, there are some fans that simply do not want to accept or acknowledge that or say that you're not a "real wrestling fan" or any of that other bullshit if you like the WWE.

The title of this thread is pretty apt because far too many of us think that we know more than we actually do. I can't begin to count the # of posts I've read in which people try to make out that they could do a better job or that they know more about what works and what doesn't. I don't take any of those posts seriously in general because the posters don't put their money where their mouths are. We can sit behind our computer screens typing out all the nonsense we want because we have absolutely nothing to lose, nothing whatsoever. We can toss about all the great ideas we've got, some of them which actually do sound pretty good, but would our ideas really work? They sound good to us sure, but what if the majority of 5 million others didn't?

The WWE most certainly has faults, but if you're expecting perfection then you're going to be waiting for a long time. I wish the WWE would do away with the guest host concept, I wish they'd do away with the corny skits they sometimes put on. There's always going to be something that you don't approve of, that's life people. Pro wrestling isn't a fantasy league in which all our ideal storylines, matches and feuds are going to come about in exactly the way that we'd want them to.