Are Jericho and Rey Screwing the SmackDown Midcard?

Thriller Ant

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We have all seen the drop in prestige of the Intercontinental Title over the last couple years. Hell, William Regal lost it a couple months ago in his second defense during a 2 month reign. So, from that standpoint the Jericho/Mysterio feud is good for the belt as these men were both in the world title picture and semi-feuding with then-champion Edge recently. That, however, is also where the problem lies. While watching Jericho face John Morrison on Superstars the other day, I never felt like Morrison could win. It was a great match, don't get me wrong, but I just couldn't allow myself to think that in kayfabe, Morrison could step up and beat Chris Jericho. I'm not saying the Jericho/Mysterio feud is a bad thing, I personally am excited about it. I'm just concerned about the belt.

So here is the question: Is the feud between Rey Mysterio and Chris Jericho raising the Intercontinental Title to a prestige level where the average midcarder (Benjamin, R-Truth, Morrison, etc.) can't realistically win it in kayfabe?
 
I see what you mean, but I don't think the mid carders are being hurt by this. If anything it helps in the long run. Think about it, when the feud is all over with, if JoMo were to get a victory over Jericho for the IC title, wouldn't it be more meaningful then his last title reign? They are bringing a little prestige back to the title, and that is a good thing.
 
In kayfabe terms, if an average midcarder couldn't win it, surely it would mean that the title is very prestigious because only midcarders who are above average can win it?

I think it's not hurting the midcard at all. It's not like Chris Jericho and Rey Mysterio isn't willing to put over young guys. Before, if a wrestler was going to be a main eventer within the next two or so years, they'd win the IC title, and that was supposed to be enough of a push in itself to get a wrestler ready to go to the next level.
Now with the IC title's lowered prestige, winning it isn't enough to give a wrestler a pre-main event push. So instead they have a former world champion as IC champion. The lowered but not non-existant prestige of the IC title mixed with beating a former world champion who happens to be holding the IC title is now worth the same as winning the IC title back in the day. So I think it all just about evens out. I mean, 10-20 years ago, only superstars who were going to be main eventers or close to it were given good IC title reigns. Austin, Rock, Michaels, Hart, Razor Ramon, Triple H, Chris Jericho, Edge.
Why should average midcarders get the title these days if in the past the title only benefitted above average wrestlers because they were the only ones who were able to make the most of it?
 
I see what you are trying to say. The way that I see it is this. The feud between Rey Mysterio and Chris Jericho is not based entirely on the Intercontinental Championship. It was based on Jericho's desire to expose Mysterio's face and rip off his mask, while becoming a 9-time Intercontinental Champion in the process. Mysterio's only goal was simply not to let those things happen, which he did.

The Mysterio/Jericho did not and does not need to be over the Intercontinental Title. It's obvious that both superstars are above the title, but WWE doesn't trust them enough to constantly put them in the main event. I never liked the fued, but I really thought it would help the Intercontinental Title. I'm feeling that I was wrong. If Mysterio takes an extended absence, that could give time for Jericho to defend the IC Title against worthy defenders, such as Shelton Benjamin, R-Truth, John Morrison, Charlie Haas, Ricky Ortiz, and more. When Mysterio does return, Jericho will have already lost the title and we could have the fued over, a little word called respect.

As for Morrison's loss to Chris Jericho at Superstars, it wasn't a surprise. Jericho needed to win his first match as the Intercontinental Champion. Although Morrison might have benefitted from the win more than Jericho, I find it better that he won. Morrison has plenty of time to build himself up as a main player and in no time, Morrison will be defeating former World Champions and main eventers right and left.

So, to close up, I'm gonna say... Rey and Jericho are not really hurting the midcard on Smackdown. Although, their fued does not need to be over the Intercontinental Championship, (which it barely is), it just adds a feature that makes this particular fued stand out. Hope that helps you out a bit.
 
In regards to the titles prestige I think it's so far in the toilet that really having Chris Jericho hold it really adds nothing.

Think back to around this time last year, Chris Jericho was IC champ heading into Night of Champions. What happened then Kofi Kingston would go on to "shock" everyone, by beating Chris Jericho. After that I heard a lot of grumblings about how that Kofi win helped the belts prestige, when in reality it did nothing.

Having a big star hold the belt, and battle with another big star is not how you strenghten the IC belt. Having a superstar who needs a push, like Kofi, battle MEANINGFUL and engaging feuds however DOES.

So my answer is no having Jericho and Rey fight over it does not help the IC title.
 
So here is the question: Is the feud between Rey Mysterio and Chris Jericho raising the Intercontinental Title to a prestige level where the average midcarder (Benjamin, R-Truth, Morrison, etc.) can't realistically win it in kayfabe?

No, not at all. its only raising the profile of the mid card as a whole. You would be suprised at what a competitive match and some good promos can do. Didnt Jericho make RTruth look like very serious buisness two weeks ago? Extremely competitve, awesome match, that Jericho barely won.

Its all in the matches man. If Morrison and Jericho have a crazy fuckin feud, then Morrison is elevated. The Mysterio-Jericho feud is what the IC title, and the mid card DESPERATELY needs, needed. It does nothing but trickle down, and help the other contenders.
 
As usual I'm with Norcal here. It's easy to make this work and it's all about the rub. I give you two names and one feud for the perfect example: Steve Austin and Bret Hart. Austin never once pinned Hart clean. The only time I ever remember him winning was via DQ. Austin was launched into the main event without ever winning because he was made to look like a god out there. That's what Jericho or Mysterio can do here. They can make someone else look awesome even in defeating them. Anyone else can rise up to their level, even without actually ever getting the belt. It's easy to do, if it's done right.
 
This more depends on what happens AFTER the Jericho/Mysterio feud ends...whoever the winner is (I'm betting on Rey after a mask vs tittle at SummerSlam) WWE has to make a #1 contenders match and start another program the problem for the mid-card tittles lately have been once creative gets one good/solid program finished...nothing happens until a big idea for another one. Hopefully w/WWE's new focus on wrestling the US tittle (and the IC belt for that matter) will have some importance after SummerSlam.

...this actually makes me miss the WWF pre-attitude era booking...anytime it seemed like someone was on the come up for a tittle a program started
 
If anyone is being screwed in the situation... it's Jericho... as he proved in recent months he is good enough to carry a brand... but Jericho is one of those rare talents that can move up and down the card and still carry the brand... and in today's WWE it's essential you can do it cos no one is going to be dominant except taker, trips and Cena...

Personally I don't see this as a demotion, as Rey is still SD's most over character bar Taker... Jericho has yet another place in history with 9 titles and probably 10 by the end of the feud... As for the mid-card below him... Jericho is the standard they have to reach to have any chance in the WWE of the future, this feud will give them a great chance to watch how it needs to be done.
 
You may have thought that JoMo didn't stand a chance, but in the actual match Jericho couldn't actually win without resorting to cheating. JoMo looked like he deserved to be the ring with Jericho. You are meant to think if the referee had spotted the tights being held then Jericho would have been possibly DQ'd and JoMo would have won. If he had lost a squash it would have looked bad, but I feel that match has elevated Morrison. It has shown he is past dealing with Benjamin and now has a serious crack at beating Jericho for the IC title.

Jericho has elevated Morrison so much since he's been on Smackdown, and it has already been pointed out that he has done the same with R-Truth. Jericho is a great thing for the Smackdown midcard. He lives for elevating others.
 
I'm more concerned about what happens to whoever the next IC champ is after Jericho, rather than what Jericho/Mysterio having a feud together does for the title. Jericho/Mysterio doesn't run the title into the ground, but it doesn't elevate it to an incalculable level either. It does get a bit of a boost, no doubt, but not enough that its suddenly above the WWE title or anything.

However, where do we go from here? Smackdown, despite being the more entertaining of the shows, is still trying to figure out who is midcard and who is main event. In some ways, that's great, as it allows people to switch things up. Ziggler putting up a minor fight against Khali but still losing is doing much more for him than if he was just beating Jesse, Jimmy Wang Yang, and Funaki over and over again and claiming that he's great (cough*Kozlov*cough). But with the IC title, chances are, some of those big main event guys won't be put in the position to take over a feud for that belt. It could happen, sure, but WWE probably won't go that route to have, say, Undertaker vs Dolph Ziggler for the IC title.

Who are your options to beat Jericho for the title? Out of the faces on the brand, you've got Jeff Hardy, Jesse, Jimmy Wang Yang, John Morrison, Cryme Tyme, Rey Mysterio, R-Truth, Undertaker, Khali. You can already eliminate almost all of them. Hardy and Undertaker are main event and staying there. Jesse, Yang, and Cryme Tyme have no business touching singles gold whatsoever. The Great Khali....no thanks, he's just not IC material. This leaves us with only three choices: Morrison, Mysterio, Truth.

Let's say Morrison/Jericho becomes a feud and JoMo walks out with the IC title. Who is his next feud? He's already been feuding with Shelton and Charlie Haas. Hawkins hasn't been on TV in months and is basically gone from the WWE at this point. Ortiz is a shitty jobber. That leaves Ziggler, Kane, and Knox. Ziggler and Knox unfortunately aren't at the level that they would need to be to make a feud with Morrison over the IC title seem like its a step above (or on the same level) for Morrison. It would appear as though he was going from a potential main event push and then downward to midcard hell. A feud with Kane on the other hand looks semi-impressive, especially if Morrison comes out on top, but at the same time, afterwards, who does he feud with? A step down for Ziggler and Knox and the like. Therefore, its not a good idea to put Morrison as IC champ, because if they're serious about pushing him as a main event face on the brand, he needs to be elevated feud after feud, not downgraded every so often.

Let's say R-Truth picks up the IC title, which immediately downgrades it from Jericho's level on the hierarchy. Truth is more of a "stuck in the midcard and won't go anywhere fast" type of guy. Naturally, if he feuds with Knox, Shelton, Haas, or Ziggler, it won't hurt him, because it'll be the same level he's at now. However, we've already seen him feud with Shelton, and on that list, Shelton's above the rest. R-Truth and Kane would make sense, but Truth is 37...Kane is 42...is it really worth Kane trying to put over R-Truth when you know he's not going to be around long enough to make something big out of it? Plus, for the IC title itself, giving it to R-Truth relegates it back to midcard status and it goes nowhere.

Best option is actually for Mysterio to win the title back. Now, the trick with Mysterio is that he's flexible in his position on the card. Nobody really ever expects him to win a world title anymore, but when he's challenging for it, it sort of makes sense, right? Nobody really questions it too much. Edge/Mysterio never seemed as if it was Edge facing JTG. Plus, Mysterio is - for some reason - perpetually over with the crowd and popular. This allows a much greater flexibility when it comes to losses and putting over younger stars. Mysterio serves himself, the roster, and the WWE company best if he wins the IC title back and begins feuding with some of the leftover heels from Smackdown. He serves himself because he can successfully pin guys like Dolph Ziggler whereas he'll always lose to someone like Edge. He serves the roster because he's a veteran passing his knowledge onto younger guys like Ziggler and helping them get over with the crowd. He serves the WWE because he's a popular star promoting feuds with these younger guys over the IC title, making it something that is wanted and on top of it, something the fans don't want Mysterio to lose, so they'll be pissed when a guy like Ziggler is able to take the belt away from Rey. This boosts Ziggler up a lot, especially if he can get on the mic and take shots at Rey to get the crowd to hate him, and what happens to Rey? Nothing. Rey doesn't find himself in a spot where nobody takes him seriously and he's jobbing to Ricky Ortiz, because he's Rey Mysterio.

For the sake of the IC title's credibility and the Smackdown roster (especially the midcard), I think the Jericho/Mysterio feud has to end with Rey winning back the title at the Bash. This allows him to start a fresh, new feud with Shelton Benjamin at Night of Champions. In the mean time, Dolph Ziggler can be put in a feud with R-Truth where he comes out on top, giving him a big enough boost that he's upgraded towards legitimate midcarder level. Mysterio goes over Shelton in their feud, and then starts a feud with Ziggler who beats Mysterio. Everybody wins in that scenario. Morrison moves up to a Jericho or Kane feud and is looked at as if he's a main event guy, Shelton feuds with Mysterio and is upgraded thusly, Ziggler is given enough momentum to successfully feud with Mysterio by going over R-Truth, and by the end of this cycle, you've got a new main event guy (Morrison), a new legit upper midcarder who could be a passing feud for CM Punk (Shelton), Mysterio in the same position he's in now, and Ziggler as Intercontinental champion.
 
I agree that Mysterio winning the feud is the best way to go. Before I start, no matter who wins, this feud is good because Jericho and Rey are so over that losing the belt after or during the feud can't really hurt them. (I just realized I hadn't given my opinion on this yet, lol) Morrison is the next best midcarder at the moment, but one of the young heels should win it in order to keep Morrison on his push. I'm not saying that he shouldn't feud for that belt, but like you said, NoFate, it would be a step down for him to win it then face Ricky Ortiz. On the other hand, if someone like Dolph Ziggler wins it, he can feud with Morrison and win with heel tactics. This allows Morrison to stay in his current place by dominating a match, but Ziggler gets a boost by beating him.

Where I disagree with you is over the length. You want it to be over at the next PPV, but I want another long, personal feud, a la Jericho/Michaels. These two have had great chemistry since at least WCW (maybe ECW too, I don't know offhand) and this is a compelling storyline. Meanwhile, this allows the other midcarders to get into good feuds and move themselves up and build themselves as contenders to the title if/when it becomes available to them. Besides the timeline of the feud, I totally agree with you NoFate.
 
We have all seen the drop in prestige of the Intercontinental Title over the last couple years. Hell, William Regal lost it a couple months ago in his second defense during a 2 month reign. So, from that standpoint the Jericho/Mysterio feud is good for the belt as these men were both in the world title picture and semi-feuding with then-champion Edge recently. That, however, is also where the problem lies. While watching Jericho face John Morrison on Superstars the other day, I never felt like Morrison could win. It was a great match, don't get me wrong, but I just couldn't allow myself to think that in kayfabe, Morrison could step up and beat Chris Jericho. I'm not saying the Jericho/Mysterio feud is a bad thing, I personally am excited about it. I'm just concerned about the belt.

I gotcha. Right now, Morrison wouldn't beat Jericho for the belt. He's a lowly mid-carder competing against Chris motherfucking Jericho. Twas never going to happen.

So here is the question: Is the feud between Rey Mysterio and Chris Jericho raising the Intercontinental Title to a prestige level where the average midcarder (Benjamin, R-Truth, Morrison, etc.) can't realistically win it in kayfabe?

That is the magic of a feud. Whomever finishes this feud with the title can start one with the next IC title champion. Let's assume it's Morrison for shits and giggles. After a prolonged feud, if it's worked right, you'll believe Morrison can win.

I mean, no one automatically assumed Cena would win every match he was in. It took how many feuds before he was considered a solid main-event star? How many did it take for Triple H? HBK?
 
Jericho and Rey have made a career out of jumping from the midcard to the main event and back again in the blink of an eye. They don't have egos. They don't need to be at the top of the card week in and week out. They're willing to be plugged in wherever they're needed. Because of that, it's just as likely that Jericho will lose to a supposed midcarder like John Morrison as it is that he'll beat a main eventer like Edge.

You may say that you never thought Morrison would beat Jericho but believe you me, Morrison WILL beat Jericho eventually and Jericho will be more than happy to do the job. As long as a talented wrestler holds the IC title and has great matches then the title will seem more important. Titles are devalued when they hotshot from one flavor of the month to the next with little rhyme nor reason. Jericho has made it clear that the IC title has a special place in his heart.

Right now SD is a show that's perfect for IC title level guys. The majority of the big players on SD are guys who routinely spend more time feuding over the IC title than they do a World title. Plug any of those two guys into the current IC title feud and you have money. The beauty of it all is that you could also plug those same two guys into the World title feud.

The SD midcard is the SD main event and it feels pretty damned awesome.
 
I think Chris Jericho and Rey Mysterio are helping the Intercontinental Title. The simple fact that we’re talking about two men who went from all over the World in Independents and International territories to ECW, then to WCW, then finally to the WWE says a lot about these two and their credibility. The fact that we’re talking about two men who started out as Cruiserweight Champions then became World Champions in the Sport where “Big Giants” rule, says a lot about these two and their versatility. These two are literally World Class athletes and to a certain extent World Class actors. Having the IC Belt as the center piece of this feud, to me, brings this Title back to the glory days of when The Macho Man had it all the way up to WrestleMania X7.

In my opinion, when the WWE started the Invasion angle, this is the exact point where the Intercontinental Title went from “Silver Medal of the WWE” to the “3rd place trophy”. I say this, because this is when the WCW Title was brought in and basically took the number 2 spot in the WWE.
 
If you're worried that the prestige of the IC championship will be diminished because the next IC champ (i.e. Morrison) has no one worthwhile to feud with, just remember that the prestige of the title survived Bret Hart feuding with The Mountie. Sometimes it's hard to find a suitable opponent, but eventually someone will rise up and prove themselves.
 
I don't think it's hurting the other mid-card talent. I believe it's raising the measuring stick that much higher. We've been subjected to 2-month title reigns, so we are used to everyone becoming champion, whereas we should see the JoMos, Benjamins, R-Truths, etc move up the ladder with an IC title victory being the pinnacle and graduation of the (mid) mid card.
 
The Intercontinental title is actually being defended on PPV again. That's a step up. You have two former World Champions wrestling for it. That's a step up. You have arguably the greatest wrestler right now (Jericho) against one of the most popular (Rey). It's better than it was back in the Attitude era, when pretty much anyone could win the title (looking at you, Road Dogg and X-Pac). If they do this thing right, Jericho holds the title until Summerslam, where you officially launch the era of John Morrison, winning the title on PPV in a huge match. Then, the IC title looks really legit.
 
I actually think it's a great move. I really believe only main eventers and top mid-carders should hold both the Intercontinental and United States titles. They aren't hurting the mid-card at all because frankly, there's so much room on Smackdown! for the mid-card right now. Right now you're seeing plenty of Shelton Benjamin, John Morrison, Charlie Haas, R-Truth, Dolph Ziggler, heck even the occasional appearance by Ricky Ortiz. The mid-card is becoming somewhat established on Smackdown!, even if they are all a far way away from main eventing.

I think Jericho and Rey feuding over the IC belt is great. They always talk about how prestigious the IC title is, and it once was. Two main event guys in a high end feud that involves the gold certainly doesn't hurt restoring credibility, especially since Rey keeps coming back for more despite Jericho wanting to unmask him. It shows the value that the title holds to Rey and to Jericho. It could be returning to its old state when being the IC Champ really meant you were second best on the show. The IC Champ used to be a headliner, a guy to come and see, and then when you had the IC Champ against the Heavyweight Champ things were all abuzz. If the IC title can return to this on Smackdown!, then it's great.
 
[QUOTE="Lionheart" Thrill Jericho;1129918]We have all seen the drop in prestige of the Intercontinental Title over the last couple years. Hell, William Regal lost it a couple months ago in his second defense during a 2 month reign. So, from that standpoint the Jericho/Mysterio feud is good for the belt as these men were both in the world title picture and semi-feuding with then-champion Edge recently. That, however, is also where the problem lies. While watching Jericho face John Morrison on Superstars the other day, I never felt like Morrison could win. It was a great match, don't get me wrong, but I just couldn't allow myself to think that in kayfabe, Morrison could step up and beat Chris Jericho. I'm not saying the Jericho/Mysterio feud is a bad thing, I personally am excited about it. I'm just concerned about the belt.

So here is the question: Is the feud between Rey Mysterio and Chris Jericho raising the Intercontinental Title to a prestige level where the average midcarder (Benjamin, R-Truth, Morrison, etc.) can't realistically win it in kayfabe?[/QUOTE]

I can say without even thinking...definitely not. First of all what is this mid card you speak of? The unestablished (at the time) men in the back who would come out for random matches week in and week out? Mysterio took the belt of of JBL, and Jericho off of him to bring credibility to the title after guys like Santino buried it.

While Mysterio and Jericho are feuding over the title exclusively, the other lower card talent were given the ability to just now move up and really own the mid card, and actually be recognizable and over with the audience. The Mysterio and Jericho feud has VERY quietly, actually elevated the mid card. They have freed up time for them to work their own programs without a title, which is helping them not only get better in the ring, but actually work on their gimmick and fine tune their character. R-Truth, Morrison, and hell this angle he is in sucks but Even Dolph Ziggler is developing nicely on Fridays.

Them in an IC feud gives enough room and time for the main event and mid card to flourish.

This is also a testament to the greatness of Y2J and Rey, in that they are able to make a worthless title appear to be almost as glamerous as a World Title. God Forbid Evolution, Cena, or even The Big Show fight for the US Title these days.
 
Well actually in a way it is, but think about it this way when Jericho and Mysterio end their feud,one of the mid-carders is gonna step up there game wether its Shelton, Jo Mo, etc it won't matter. And when that mid-carder steps up, his popularity and in ring skills are gonna step up, soo even with kayfabe blocking the doorway, that mid-carder could have a win against Jericho! It would mean a lot more than to just win it off in a couple of days off Charlie Haas or something.
 
I think that this feud is raising the prestige of the belt. We went from Santino and Goldust feuding for the title to former world champions feuding for the titles.
 
I see the point, and yet I don't at the same time.

Yes, I suppose that it does leave people like Morrison in somewhat of a screwed position... But here's the thing. For the past years, creative has really dropped the ball on the belts. They figure that, instead of giving the over guy belts, they would make it the other way around, and they would use the belts to get over the wrestler. I've got no problem with people like Mysterio or Jericho getting ths strap, because.... Well, they're over. That isn't to say that Morrison and the other bunch of wrestlers who haven't proven a damn thing on Smackdown won't get over, but it has to take time, and it has to take making these men that hold the IC belt look.... Well, like champions. That way, when Morrison actually does win the belt, it actually legitimately means something, and it's almost a sense that the wrestler has started to really make his name in the WWE.

Consider this footage that I use to exemplify my point:

[youtube]1GMCBdC7bY8[/youtube]

Hear that pop at the end? It felt like then, that Jeff Hardy had really accomplished something. That he had broken some type of glass ceiling, and that his career was truly going to begin. Of course, the next Raw, Triple H kinda punked him out, but still, it felt like a defining moment in Jeff Hardy's career. He had beaten a man that was built as fairly unstoppable, and made his name as a singles wrestler.

So to answer your question... I guess I don't agree.
 

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