Are cool heels good or bad for wrestling?

[vanderhevel]

seems like the wwe wont allow there to be cool heels anymore, like randy orton being turned face rather than get cheers as a cool heel. villains are much more entertaining in most types of programming as they are dynamic and interesting where the faces are boring and cut and dry.

rather than turn randy orton face or pump boos into the building when cm punk or y2j get cheers, why dont they try to make their faces cooler to match up that way people dont get so bored of them. look at batman and the joker, joker is badass as all hell wrecking that museum in the original bat man movie, he was cracking jokes and all sorts of funny shit. the only way to measure it up was to make batman bad ass as a mofo. same with heel rock and good austin.

 

[brighamosity]

It's simple. They want you to cheer for the faces and boo the heels. If they made you like the heels, then they wouldn't be heels. Vince McMahon would not want John Cena getting a beatdown from a "cool heel" and then all the fans cheer for the heel. That completely defeats the purpose of having faces and heels. Stone Cold is what you would consider a "cool heel". But he was a face. The reason they don't have what you would probably consider a "cool face" is because they are targeting children now. A "cool face" to a kid is John Cena. And if you really try to look at it from an unbiased perspective, you might like him himself. I've been trying to suspend my disbelief at WWE lately, and I've honestly found John Cena to be pretty interesting. His promos are pretty entertaining to me. And I completely understand why a kid would like him. It sounds like you just don't like good guy wrestlers. And there's nothing wrong with that. But just because you don't like them doesn't mean they aren't "cool". I think the IWC is too harsh on faces. Like being a face makes you less cool. I guarantee if John Cena made a heel turn tomorrow, he would become the IWC's favorite wrestler. Heel wrestlers should not be "cool" because only faces are supposed to be cool. A cool heel would only hurt the credibility of the faces.

Look at Randy Orton. He was a "cool heel". The reason they made him a face is because they don't want their fans cheering for a heel. They've always done that in wrestling. The Rock was a cool heel. So they made him a face. Mankind was a cool heel. They made him a face. Some of the nWo were cool heels. So they made the Wolfpac. When Hogan came back to WWE, they turned him face after his match with the Rock. Anytime you have a heel who is too over with the crowd, they will inevitably turn them face, because that makes them more marketable to the mainstream fans. It's just good business.

Oh, and I know this contradicts everything I just said, but there are cool heels. C.M. Punk is the coolest heel I've seen in years. Nexus is also pretty cool. But so long as the mainstream fans (i.e. kids) continue to boo them, they will remain heels.

 

[Dave]

seems like the wwe wont allow there to be cool heels anymore, like randy orton being turned face rather than get cheers as a cool heel. villains are much more entertaining in most types of programming as they are dynamic and interesting where the faces are boring and cut and dry.

rather than turn randy orton face or pump boos into the building when cm punk or y2j get cheers, why dont they try to make their faces cooler to match up that way people dont get so bored of them. look at batman and the joker, joker is badass as all hell wrecking that museum in the original bat man movie, he was cracking jokes and all sorts of funny shit. the only way to measure it up was to make batman bad ass as a mofo. same with heel rock and good austin.

I can quite honestly say that this is the first time I have ever heard the Rock and Austin compared to Batman and the Joker. So… Erm… Kudos!

But onto the matter at hand, I think that the people that have gone beyond being a heel and demonstrating heelish behaviour, like Randy Orton have little choice but to go to a tweener role or even face. The fact of the matter is that if you have a heel that is too badass, no one is going to take him seriously in his alignment and thus, the whole point of him being a heel is lost. Heels are supposed to be the people who are the villains and it is very rare that villains are cheered for. If I may borrow your comic analogy, when was the last time you were rooting for Mr. Freeze against Batman? You just don’t do it and if the case becomes prevalent that Mr. Freeze is getting cheered by the people, he’s not a villain anymore is he?

The same goes for heels who are getting cheers. There is no point in keeping them as heels anymore and no matter how awesome you make the faces, it is not going to take away from the reaction that the heels get. Making John Cena more awesome is not going to make people cheer Randy Orton any less and to suggest otherwise is crazy.

So, what I will say is that having heels that are being cheered by live audiences is bad. You have fucked up somewhere because professional wrestling works on the good guy/bad guy mantra and to digress from that can sometimes be the opposite of progress, regardless of how awesome the face is in comparison.

 

[CH David]

seems like the wwe wont allow there to be cool heels anymore, like randy orton being turned face rather than get cheers as a cool heel. villains are much more entertaining in most types of programming as they are dynamic and interesting where the faces are boring and cut and dry.

rather than turn randy orton face or pump boos into the building when cm punk or y2j get cheers, why dont they try to make their faces cooler to match up that way people dont get so bored of them. look at batman and the joker, joker is badass as all hell wrecking that museum in the original bat man movie, he was cracking jokes and all sorts of funny shit. the only way to measure it up was to make batman bad ass as a mofo. same with heel rock and good austin.

I don't really see a question in the OP at all. I'll base it off of the thread title. "Cool heels" like what you saw in the Attitude Era have fucked everything up. People are cheering the bad guys, booing the good guys, what the hell is that? That goes against everything in the history of wrestling that preceded 1996. If people are cheering for you, they are going to tweak your character to make you a face, at the least a tweener. Still, the faces are supposed to get cheered because they are doing what is right, not beating up people for the hell of it. Cool heels have ruined the business, and it will likely take quite a few more years to reverse that damage.

Your Batman analogy is also bad. Batman was already a badass, Joker was just a deadly maniac. To defeat him, he had to do everything in his power not to turn his back on the true morals, which stood as not killing the Joker. If he killed the Joker, then the Joker truly won. Just a bad analogy.

 

[The Shockmaster]

There should be a place for "Cool Heels" in wrestling but sadly since the attitude era it just doesnt exist anymore. Okay okay it goes against morals to cheer for a bad guy but so what...this is all entertainment where talking about not real life. Im not cheering for a criminal or a bank robber im cheering for a guy that goes around and gives an RKO to both sides of the roster.

If I like a cool heel i should be able to cheer for his heelish ways. Just because I cheer doesn't mean that i think hes a great guy. All that it means is i enjoy this characters heelish antics and feel i should cheer along in support of those ways.

And just for a little input on randy's situation...do you think (with people saying he recently turned face) he would really RKO Evan Bourne(who couldnt get more face). The answer is NO...he is still a tweener and just rolls with the faces now because there isnt a tweener group to hang with

 

[brighamosity]

There should be a place for "Cool Heels" in wrestling but sadly since the attitude era it just doesnt exist anymore. Okay okay it goes against morals to cheer for a bad guy but so what...

You're missing the point. Who were these "cool heels" of the attitude era that you are referring to? If it's the Rock and Stone Cold, they were faces. DX perhaps? Faces all the way. A "heel" is someone you're supposed to boo. A "face" is someone you're supposed to cheer. If they act like a bad guy, but people cheer them anyway, it's still considered a face. The name of that gimmick is called "anti-hero". Stone Cold was the person who made this gimmick so successful. He was a badass who beat up anyone who got in his way. But at the end of the day, he was still considered a face. Because he is the person Vince McMahon wanted you to cheer for. It would simply make no sense whatsoever for them to have someone be a heel if everyone was cheering for them. That is why you won't see John Cena make a heel turn anytime soon. And that is why Randy Orton is now a face.

I will spell it out because some people still don't get it. Good guys sell t-shirts. Bad guys don't. If a bad guy starts to sell t-shirts, they make him a face, so they can sell even more t-shirts. It has absolutely nothing to do with "morals" and EVERYTHING to do with money. Faces make more money than heels. Heels are only there to help faces make more money. If a heel is "cooler" than the face, the fans will stop buying the t-shirts of the face.

You talk about morals like Vince McMahon has any. Back in 2003 or so when Triple H was having sex with that corpse, if the fans had started chanting "We want Katie Vick!" they would have made her come back from the dead and she would have been a zombie wrestler. Morals have nothing to do with it. If there was a serial killer wrestler, and fans cheered for them, and Vince McMahon thought he could make money off of him, you'd have a face serial killer.

And if you're just referring to heels that you liked but kids don't, they do still have "cool heels". They're called Nexus.

Oh, and your argument about Randy Orton not RKO'ing Evan Bourne, that only proves that he's a face. Tweeners attack both good guys and bad guys. It's been awhile since I've seen Randy Orton attack a good guy so he is 100% face in my book.

 

[CH David]

There should be a place for "Cool Heels" in wrestling but sadly since the attitude era it just doesnt exist anymore. Okay okay it goes against morals to cheer for a bad guy but so what...this is all entertainment where talking about not real life. Im not cheering for a criminal or a bank robber im cheering for a guy that goes around and gives an RKO to both sides of the roster.

So we should cheer bad guys for doing bad stuff? I don't care if it is a bank robber or not. He is still a bad guy. He punted an old man in 2007 for Christ's sake. He gave a DDT to a man's wife and kissed her right in front of him. That is good? Wooow. Society is going downhill if that's the case.

If I like a cool heel i should be able to cheer for his heelish ways. Just because I cheer doesn't mean that i think hes a great guy. All that it means is i enjoy this characters heelish antics and feel i should cheer along in support of those ways.

So you are going against the was wrestling has been for generations? Good to know. Cheering a heel is fucktardly stupid. You can appreciate a guy by making sure he is doing his job correctly, boo him. If he is getting cheers, he is obviously doing a shitty job at being a heel. Common sense shows if you want a heel to stay a heel, boo him.

 

[The Shockmaster]

I appriecate what the heel doing so i am going to boo him? NO...i am going to chear him...not boo him...booing him means i dont agree with what he is doing. Dont give me that its been chear for good guys and boo for bad guys since wrestling started crap. Wrestling changes with the times.

In the new batman did you cheer for batman...if you did your a f*cking ****** cause the joker is the man. Hes a bad guy but hes a cool bad guy. Same with wrestling...just because hes a bad guy im going to boo him...even if i like what hes doing. That just makes no sense at all; And you my friend, I think are stuck in the glory days of Hogan and probably cry when Cena gets attacked by the Nexus.

And theres another example..nexus..bunch o bad guys who beat you cena and other faces everyweek...i bet half the IWC marks out every time they do...and i dont mean by booing.

 

[vanderhevel]

idk, to me it doesnt matter if someone is good or bad, if they display charisma, ability, and are interesting when they are on the screen, i cheer them. thats why i cheer y2j no matter what, even though he hates getting cheered.
some people may think its wrong to do that, but i cant boo something i like, i boo stuff i hate.

 

[brighamosity]

idk, to me it doesnt matter if someone is good or bad, if they display charisma, ability, and are interesting when they are on the screen, i cheer them. thats why i cheer y2j no matter what, even though he hates getting cheered.
some people may think its wrong to do that, but i cant boo something i like, i boo stuff i hate.

So you admit you like Jericho. Do you not consider him cool? I think he is. You just answered your own question. There are cool heels.

But if everyone started thinking Jericho was cool, even Cena marks, then he would inevitably become a face.

This is really becoming a circular argument.

Again, it's OK to like a heel. If you like them, then you probably consider them "cool". But if everyone starts thinking they are "cool", then they will make a face turn.

 

[CH David]

I appriecate what the heel doing so i am going to boo him? NO...i am going to chear him...not boo him...booing him means i dont agree with what he is doing. Dont give me that its been chear for good guys and boo for bad guys since wrestling started crap. Wrestling changes with the times.

Wrestling changes? Bullshit. The only thing that changed was the Attitude Era, and that was the exception to the rule. The question is, are cool heels good or bad for wrestling? They are bad for wrestling. They are supposed to be booed, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. You are doing the opposite of what a heel wants. Congratulations, you are fucking up his paycheck. Moron.

In the new batman did you cheer for batman...if you did your a f*cking ****** cause the joker is the man. Hes a bad guy but hes a cool bad guy. Same with wrestling...just because hes a bad guy im going to boo him...even if i like what hes doing. That just makes no sense at all; And you my friend, I think are stuck in the glory days of Hogan and probably cry when Cena gets attacked by the Nexus.

First you call me a ******, then you call me your friend. Two things wrong with that. 1) I'm not a ******, so thank you for being a douche in saying that. 2) I'm not your friend. I don't associate myself with dumb shits like you. A heel's job is to get you to boo him. You are doing the opposite of what they want. Again, you are a moron and are screwing their job up.

Also, you are the 2nd person in the last week to think I'm a Hogan fan. Listen up moron, I am not a Hulkamaniac. I respect what he did for the business, but I'm not nearly as big a Hogan fan as I am for others. I don't cry when Cena gets beaten up, I watch in anticipation for things to happen. I enjoy the storyline, but I don't root for the heel.

Quit with the Batman talk. You aren't helping yourself.

And theres another example..nexus..bunch o bad guys who beat you cena and other faces everyweek...i bet half the IWC marks out every time they do...and i dont mean by booing.

Wow, the IWC marks out for a heel. What a shock. That doesn't help prove your point. Cool heels are not good for wrestling. That is the point of this thread. I don't care if you think times have changed, wrestling's storyline is good vs. evil. The evil will never prevail. However, if you cheer for the heel, then you fuck up the entire cycle, and ruin everything.

 

[The Shockmaster]

I honestly feel very sorry for you. Booing a heel at a show is one thing...but you say you never root for a heel. Are you telling me you sit at home and boo heels and cheer faces religiously. Its called entertainment for a reason...in a world were a deadman dies time and time again, a place where the a man called the yeti debuted in a mummy costume and doink the clown appeared this week on Raw that it is not acceptable to cheer a guy that may smash a chair over cenas head.

If you never sat at home and watched the greatness that is Jericho and did not want to cheer at the end of a promo or match i would have to say there is something wrong in your brain.

Finally argument....theres enough little kids in the arena(that dont know any better) to keep heels "heels" and faces "faces". Its up to the teens and the older audience to distinguish and appreciate the meaning of a heel and actually how "cool" they could be.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I honestly feel very sorry for you. Booing a heel at a show is one thing...but you say you never root for a heel. Are you telling me you sit at home and boo heels and cheer faces religiously. Its called entertainment for a reason...in a world were a deadman dies time and time again, a place where the a man called the yeti debuted in a mummy costume and doink the clown appeared this week on Raw that it is not acceptable to cheer a guy that may smash a chair over cenas head.

If you never sat at home and watched the greatness that is Jericho and did not want to cheer at the end of a promo or match i would have to say there is something wrong in your brain.

Finally argument....theres enough little kids in the arena(that dont know any better) to keep heels "heels" and faces "faces". Its up to the teens and the older audience to distinguish and appreciate the meaning of a heel and actually how "cool" they could be.

Why would I root for a heel? If the coolest guy on earth robbed a bank and holds 100 people hostage, am I going to be cheering for him because I think he is cool. No I am not. Wrestling has been about cheering the good guys and booing the bad guys for ages and that is never going to change.

Jericho's promos bore me to death as does his matches.

 

[Max Headroom]

By's, my god, this is entertainment. I got to agree with shockmaster on EVERYTHING he stated in this thread. If wrestling went to the plain good vs. evil, where everyone cheers good and boos bad, thats gonna get pretty damn boring fast. You pay to watch the PPVs, or go to the arena live, or your at least watching at home. If you wanna cheer a bad guy, do it. That don't mean they aint doing their job, it shows they done their job so good they managed to convery someone to their own style.


So to answer the question, yes "cool" heels are good for wrestling. They keep things different from the original formula and adds fun to the show. And to the guy who finds Jericho boring, HOW? Every RAW I wait in anticipation for the part of the show he is on, but well, thats just me.If I am at my house watching RAW, i'll cheer who I want. Like said before, the kids make up for the cheers some heels get.

 

[Ferbian]

I wouldn't go as far as to say heels are bad for wrestling. In the past it was obvious that heels were very hated. They were the wrestlers that people paid to come watch getting beaten. It even transfered into boxing with Gorgeous George telling the "secret" to Muhammad Ali.

Wrestling needs a good and a bad side. Especially with the storylines going on. Some watch it because they find realism in it (Sure you could say their ignorant and uneducated on that manner. But some might just be suspending their disbeliefs). Some watch it because, well basically it's an all in one product. You get entertainment, drama, action and you develop a feeling for the wrestlers. Be it hate, compassion, love etc.

Heels is a part of the product to solidify the empathy we get towards a wrestler. You could say they present something. Austin was known as the average workers. Vince McMahon was the boss. Vince signified the one person that everyone wanted to beat the living crap out of. He signified everything that the average person had to go against to make it through the day. Every heel does it. In their own manner.

The making faces cooler thing I don't think would work. Some of the faces are just fine now. The majority of them are doing what they're supposed to do. They're getting over as faces and getting a face reaction. All in all it's the actual heels that aren't doing their job "properly" because they're getting popular. I don't see how making the faces cooler will ever change that. Randy would've gotten a face reaction no matter what. The same goes with a lot of the wrestlers.

So I would say any type of heel is good for wrestling.