APA: Rare case of great tag team and great single careers; who was more successful?

[KillBill]

The thread is not called "Is The Rock black?". Try to keep it on topic.

We always hear how after all the greatest tag teams split up, one goes on to greatness, the other obscurity, like Rockers or Hart Foundation. Or One is great, the other good, ok, like E&C or Hardys. However, APA was a rare case of 2 men who had equally great success. Odd it is, is that one guys success was before the tag team came together, the other afterwards. So, between Ron Simmons and JBL, who had the better singles career?

At first thought, esp for fands who have been watching for only 10-15 yrs, it would seem to be JBL. But looking into things more deeply, its not, and its not even close. Lets look at them idividually:

JBL: debuting in '95, he was Justin "hawk" Bradshaw. After coming like the typical big man and winning sqashes and having small fueds with guys like Freddy Joe Floyd and Savio Vega, JBL went on to become more of a jobber to the stars. He then formed a tag team with Barry Windham, called The New Blackjacks, and I believe were part of that NWA "invasion", but I could be wrong. After getting knocked silly by Bart Gunn in Brawl For All, he then kinda floundered around with no direction, til he was found by Cyrus...and then he was APA.

Post APA: great singles career, he was one of the best heels in a very long time, was gold on the mic and formed the Cabinet. He was the longest reigning champion in 10 yrs at that time, which was quite the accomplishement. Had great fueds with Gurrero, Cena, Batista, Mysterio, and HBK.

Ron Simmons: began his career as part of the tag team Doom, with Butch Reed in NWA/WCW in late 80's, winning tag team gold on several occasions. He then became a singles wrestler, becoming one of the most popular wrestlers at that time. He beat Vader for the WCW title in '92 as a replacement for Sting. He only held the belt for about 4 months, before losing it to Vader. After a stint in ECW, he debuted as a goofy ass mother ****** in WWE, fueding with Ahmed Johnson. He started the NOD, and a huge part in helping Rock become a star, putting him over and having him become the new leader of NOD. After the face turn, Ron floundered around for a short time, before Cyrus got him.

Post APA: DAMN! Thats about it.

After going into their careers, even though JBL had a longer reign and was maybe a bigger player in his time, Simmons had the better career in the landslide for a few reasons:

1. He helped create the Rock. No superstar that JBL may have put over was bigger than the great one.

2. other than his face run in WWE, there was no point where he was a real 'jobber" to the stars. He always had a chance to win.

3, Even though JBL had a singles career both before AND after, he did not accumilate as many titles as Ron.

4. The biggest and most important reason of all: The WCW title win. JBL had the much much better reign, but Siimmons winning the WCW title was one of the biggest and most important events in wrestling history. He was the first black man to win a world title, and he did in WCW, which was all about the south back then. We don't need to go into details about how much that meant. He is still the only Black man to win the world title to my knowledge, (Zeke winning ECW doesn't count).

So those are my thought, what do you guys think?

Edit: Here is the video of Simmons winning the title. Watch the reaction of the crowd and fellow wrestlers. This guy had it.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9uz1y_ron-simmons-vs-vader_sport

 

[The Deadly Viper]

In my opinion they are both great superstars, however I think good old Bradshaw just seems to beat Ron Simmons because.... even though Ron got the WCW title, I think Bradshaw has overall just accomplished a lot more prestigious awards than Ron Simmons. Don't get me wrong I love Ron but unfortuantly due to the fact that I mainly focus on WWF/E Ron never won a WWE major title whereas Bradshaw has won the WWE title and been at 17 time hardcore champion.

 

[The Crazman]

Booker T won the world title. Also, though I agree that JBL didn't help make anyone as big as the Rock he did help make John Cena. Regardless of your view on Cena he is one of the biggest stars of the past ten years.
Now to your question, i agree that Ron Simmons had the best career outside of the APA, though thats doesn't mean that JBLs career wasnt fantastic, but the barriers Ron helped to break down, along with achievements title wise, out weigh JBLs career significantly. Its just a pity all we've got out of him for the past few years is the occasional 'damn'.

 

[StuartJolly]

JBL quite clearly was more succesfull. I cant beleive one of your points was he was the first blask world champion. Why would race be a significant factor over someone elses' career is racist. While Farooq disapeared Bradshaw become WWEs biggest heel and one of their top wrestlers. Look at it like this, if they both came back right now who would get the bigger reaction ?? Who could headline a PPV ?? JBL JBL JBL.

 

[justinept]

Ron Simmons. Without question here. He was the first African American to hold a World Title in a major US Wrestling Promotion. Nothing Bradshaw did can compete with that.

 

[goldbergiswrestling]

you are right Ron Simmons is the more sucessful one for the moments you mentioned except you are off a bit. you said to ur knowledge he is the only black world champion. so are u saying that the rock never held a world championship, granted he was only half black. but Booker T was fully black and he was a 5 time, 5 time, 5 time, 5 time, 5 time WCW champio and a 1 time world heavyweight Champion.

Oh but its not too Rare these days, look at Shawn Michaels & HHH, Look at Rated RKO (both were established but not great), Hulk Hogan and Macho Man, I mean if you include tag teams where one was established already then there are many.

 

[wrestlemaniaIII]

My problem with JBL is that he accomplished absolutely nothing when he wasn't with Ron Simmons. At wrestlemania XX he changed his look and was weaker than ever. Then he turned heel and nobody cared because he was insignificant. Then at the great american bash he was dominated by Eddie Gurrerro and won on a fluke. JBL was not over at all. He was jammed down our throats and we had no choice but to accept him as WWE champion. He was probably the least over wrestler to be champion. Since we had no choice, people grew to accept him. To me, this does not make him great. Yes he was intercontinental champion. but to answer the original question, Ron Simmons was better. People accepted him, not because they had to but because they wanted to

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Ron Simmons' biggest claim to fame as a singles wrestler is that he was the first officially recognized black man to hold a universally recognized world heavyweight wrestling championship. BoBo Brazil held the NWA World Heavyweight Championship briefly back in the early 60s, but the NWA doesn't recognize it as official. Even if Brazi's reign were to be recognized, Simmons' run with the WCW World Heavyweight Championship was the first by a black man in more than 30 years so that's something to be proud of in and of itself. When Ron Simmons won the WCW World Heavyweight Championship, however, it was kind of his last hurrah I suppose but he did hold it for a respectable 150 days. It was his final big accomplishment as a singles wrestler, though winning a world title is a helluva last big singles accomplishment.

JBL held a number of prestigious singles titles like the US and IC titles but his biggest claim is his ten and a half month run as WWE Champion. JBL is among the longest reigning world champions in the WWE in more than 20 years. Whereas Ron Simmons' world title win was sort of the last big thing in his singles career, JBL's win of the WWE Championship really kind of signaled the beginning of his status as a legitimate singles star. I know he'd held the WWE Hardcore Championship 17 times, but winning the WWE Women's Championship would've been more prestigious than that.

When looking back on things, I'd say most people would say that JBL was more successful overall. I couldn't blame anyone for saying that. But for me, I'm gonna go with Ron Simmons. Think about it, Ron Simmons may have potentially changed what it meant to be a black professional wrestler. Could Booker T and the Rock have been multiple time world champs even if Simmons had never had his run? Yeah, almost certainly so. But Simmons was the first black man to be officially recognized for holding a widely recognized world title. There can only be one first moon landing, one first kiss and one first black world champ. Until the NWA gets off its ass and gives Bobo Brazil's reign the recognition it deserves, that means it's Ron Simmons. Simmons' run made a statement in some ways whereas JBL was just another white guy world champ.

 

[cod500]

I would have to go with Simmons, I think his accomplishments mean more. And I believe Rock and Booker T are both black. If we were having a Samoan conversation we could include Rock, if we are having a black conversation we can include Rock because he is both.

 

[KillBill]

JBL quite clearly was more succesfull. I cant beleive one of your points was he was the first blask world champion. Why would race be a significant factor over someone elses' career is racist. While Farooq disapeared Bradshaw become WWEs biggest heel and one of their top wrestlers. Look at it like this, if they both came back right now who would get the bigger reaction ?? Who could headline a PPV ?? JBL JBL JBL.

Dude, you need to pay attention and not be calling me a racist. What are you talking about? Its not signifacant? He did something the had never been odfficially done, and did it in a territory known for its history of racism. He broke the barriers and made it possible for other black, african american or anyone who never thought they had a chance do it. He proved dreams can come true and anything can happen. You must have totally missed my point.

I totally forgot about Booker T, I cannot believe that, thank you for the reminder people. I did not consider Rock because hes only half black, but still, Simmons win may have set the foudation for guys like the Rock to be great.

 

[Vintage]

They both had equally impressive careers. I'd have to give the nod to Ron just because what he did was unheard of at the time in the business and with the exception of Booker T (reportedly to avoid a discrimination law suit) hasn't been done since(Rock doesn't count) I really thought Doom was one of the most underrated tag teams in history and they had moderate success in WCW too. Simmons deserved a better singles run in the WWE but the destined to fail Acolytes of the Undertaker gimmick took on a life of it's own and spawned the APA. That is a credit to both men. I was ultimately happy to see JBL get his time on top as well, he came a long way from his Justin hawk bradshaw days

 

[cod500]

Dude, you need to pay attention and not be calling me a racist. What are you talking about? Its not signifacant? He did something the had never been odfficially done, and did it in a territory known for its history of racism. He broke the barriers and made it possible for other black, african american or anyone who never thought they had a chance do it. He proved dreams can come true and anything can happen. You must have totally missed my point.

I totally forgot about Booker T, I cannot believe that, thank you for the reminder people. I did not consider Rock because hes only half black, but still, Simmons win may have set the foudation for guys like the Rock to be great.

How do you not consider Rock black if he is half black? He considers himself black and samaon, he even said it. What do you consider him? white? Samoan (even though that 50% too). The man calls himself half black and half Samoan. I'm sure he would be insulted if people did not observe the fact that his hall of fame father was black and so is he. How many 100% black people do you even think is in the USA? There are not many, but evryone calls them black. I'm just saying Rock goes down as a black champ and a Samoan champ. If not what else is he put under? light skinned?

 

[Vintage]

I would think that the Rock falls under the Samoan category but even if you don't agree with that he's certainly not African American being that he's half Samoan and Hawaiian. It generally isn't a big deal but in this case it makes a distinct difference.

 

[cod500]

I would think that the Rock falls under the Samoan category but even if you don't agree with that he's certainly not African American being that he's half Samoan and Hawaiian. It generally isn't a big deal but in this case it makes a distinct difference.

Why does he fall under Samoan but not black if he is only 50% Samoan as well ? I see what you mean in this case but it makes no sense how you can call him Samoan but you wont call him black. I'm not calling you racist or anything but in the south where i live many people don't want to acknowledge Rock being black because they don't want to give any credit to a black guy for being such a good performer. So they try to just call him samoan even though he is only 50%. But you are correct, its no big deal. Hopefully Pope can be the next, unless people try to deblack him as well.

 

[Fan_of_Wrestling]

Just for the record Ron Simmons, Booker T, Taz, Ron Killings, Bobby Lashley and Ezekiel Jackson are the Black world champions from WWE, WCW, ECW, NWA. Bobo Brazil and The Rock can be argued.

I was massively surprised when Bradshaw became JBL, it's a shame that we couldn't have had that gimmick change years earlier. I would go with Ron Simmons being the best career although I always thought it was a shame he never had that big run in WWE that JBL got.

Sorry Mark Henry... I forgot you. lol

 

[trashboy]

I like Ron Simmons alot more than JBL, never cared for JBL except during the APA days.. but i have to choose JBL as far as better career goes, but of course i only know them pretty much from their WWF / E days.. and aside from Simmons being the first black world champ or whatever, when you seriously think of him and his career, what's the one thing that comes to mind... DAMN!!

 

[richunclescrooge]

Im pretty sure Taz is Italian, but im not 100% on that

but The Rock being half black makes him black in the same way that Obama is black. Even though they are not 100% they are still considered black.

And back to the topic at hand, I agree that it said a lot about Ron's importance that he was able to become the first black champion in that era, but it really all depends on the booker. If Vince really wanted it, Hornswoggle could be the wwe champ right now. A lot of people would probably be pissed but he would be recognized as the first little person wwe champion. To me, title reigns arent what is most important. JBL had one of the longest title reigns, and that was a big nod from WWE to him to let him have the belt for so long, but it all depends on the booker's preference.

Success to me is who put asses in the seats. I wasn't really following wrestling around Ron's early career but I do believe that JBL helped bring people to shows. As far as "Who drew more fans?" who holds that recognition?

 

[KillBill]

Im pretty sure Taz is Italian, but im not 100% on that

but The Rock being half black makes him black in the same way that Obama is black. Even though they are not 100% they are still considered black.

And back to the topic at hand, I agree that it said a lot about Ron's importance that he was able to become the first black champion in that era, but it really all depends on the booker. If Vince really wanted it, Hornswoggle could be the wwe champ right now. A lot of people would probably be pissed but he would be recognized as the first little person wwe champion. To me, title reigns arent what is most important. JBL had one of the longest title reigns, and that was a big nod from WWE to him to let him have the belt for so long, but it all depends on the booker's preference.

Success to me is who put asses in the seats. I wasn't really following wrestling around Ron's early career but I do believe that JBL helped bring people to shows. As far as "Who drew more fans?" who holds that recognition?

JBL put asses in seats because people loved to hate him, but if it weren't for the brand ppv's, he would never of headlined a ppv. Did he ever headline a Wrestlemania? Its so hard to compare, because we are all so familiar with JBLs success, not too many people know about Simmons and his success. It was early 90's in WCW, when it wasn't a huge thing yet. I'm not sure the match was even televised, im sure it had to be a ppv. Here is the Title match between Vader and Simmons, where Simmons wins the title. Listen to the pop he gets from the crowd, their reaction. I'm pretty sure he coulda put butts in seats. And all the wrestlers coming out, made it one of those moments.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9uz1y_ron-simmons-vs-vader_sport


Does anyone know how to post the match from dailymotion.com? I only know how to do youtube.

 

[justinept]

Black is not a race; it's a color. That's where the PC jargon comes into play. The Rock is technically of African and Samoan descent. In terms of skin color, he is black. No one looks at D'Wayne Johnson and says, "That guy isn't black."

Semantics aside - I can't believe people haven't looked at these two guys and asked these two questions: "Where would Ron Killings have been without Bradshaw?' and "Where would Bradshaw have been without Killings?"

Without Bradshaw, Killings probably would have been phased out of the company after his run with the Nation of Domination ended. He would have likely been remembered by wrestling purists who recalled his World Title win in WCW. His resume before the APA was worthy of induction into the WWE Hall of Fame based solely on becoming the first black World Champ of a major US wrestling promotion.

Without Killings, Bradshaw probably would have been phased out of the company after his New Blackjacks stint ended. He would have been remembered by very few WWE fans as he would have done nothing of note in his WWE tenure.

Now to sit back and say that Bradshaw was more successful because he won more World Titles is unfair. Under that guise, David Arquette was more successful than Ted DiBiase.... Edge is more successful than Hulk Hogan. It is completely ludicrous for wrestlers of the past two decades to be compared to one another based on that stat. Twenty years ago, winning a World Title was a big deal that meant carrying the company. During the Monday Night Wars, winning a World Title was about keeping fans on the edge of their seats by continually booking title changes. Last decade winning a World Title became about headlining a watered-down roster that only featured half the talent. And in the past 2 years, winning a World Title has become about taking unestablished younger wrestlers and giving them credibility with the World Title. Ron Killings winning in WCW simply was a much bigger accomplishment than Bradshaw winning x amount of title in the WWE.

The question here is also slightly unfair as it suggests to the 15-year olds on the board that Ron Killings went off to have a great singles career after the APA ended. That's not how it worked out. Killings had already had a solid singles career before he joined the APA. His career was winding down. JBL's time was just getting ready to hit its peak.

 

[SickJames]

Wow really?

Have we forgotten about The Rock that quick after mentioning how Ron had a hand in making him, he won the World title and I wont confuse the two, He won the WCW Title not the World title which debuted in 2002 which IS a completely different title as you can see in title history under WWE.com

Anyway just wanted to point that out. Rocky was WCW Champion, twice in fact.

So Ron wasnt the only one.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

JBL put asses in seats because people loved to hate him

Sorry but abso-friggin-lutely NOT!!

JBL had a powerful hand backstage and he had zero admirers among his peers.
He was ok on the mic but he was shoved down our throats because Smackdown didn't have a top heel at that time and as Heyman famously said
".....cause Triple H refused to work tuesdays!!"
That my friend wasn't just a spiteful rant or taunt...it was damn true!
He had the flab of Susan Boyle and the in ring skills of a drunk walrus.

I remember him coming to the ECW One Night Stand 2006 and saying how 2 blocks away was MSG and if you'd put his name on the marquee, it would fill up...
That is a so goddamn hilarious, its not even funny!!
Nobody ever went to a wrestling show to hear or see JBL. PERIOD.

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

No one looks at D'Wayne Johnson and says, "That guy isn't black."

Obviously you're not a Family Guy fan.

Stewie I hope he's ok, otherwise i'll have to go back to hanging out with The Rock again.
Voiceover "One's a baby. The other's black. Well sorta...... If it is black it's definitely diluted. There's probably some hispanic in there........'

Anyway, we're not supposed to be debating the Rock's ethnicity so let's move on.....

I'm going to say Simmons career mainly because it included an accomplishment that was both historic and ground breaking. Being the first ever African American World Heavyweight Champion is a big achievement.

How dare some of you come on here and say that that's a worthless achievement. Why is it any less significant than the first interacial kiss on TV, or the first African American President? To say it doesn't matter any more than white guys winning it is the only racist comment i've read in this thread so far.

Bradshaw may have been a 17x Hardcore champ, but we need to remind ourselves that this was during the age of the 24/7 Hardcore title and the majority of those reigns were no longer than 2 minutes long.

Bradshaw's only 2 significant achievements in the WWE was his 10 month title reign and proving that he was more than just a brawling tag team guy. He was an amazing heel, imo, but not to the point where the fans actually appreciated his talent.

Edge, Jericho and Orton still got cheers as heels, i feel, because the fans thought they were amazingly talented as heels, whereas people actually hated JBL. Probably because every promo included him banging on about being rich and famous to levels that the fans could only dream of (McMahon's primary heet technique) and bigging himself up as a 'Wrestling God' when very few of his matches were enjoyable to watch.

Bradshaw's ME push seemed to be nothing more than a reward for sticking with being a mid-card tag team guy for 10 years without moaning, plus being able to wipe his ass with $100 bills like Vince, probably helped, whereas Simmon's achievements seemed to be more because he acually deserved it.

So yeah, for those reasons, i'd have to go with Simmons.

 

[Ruthless-RKO]

Both great as singles and tag team, but I would have to say ron simmons, for his work back in the early 90's in WCW and winning the world title.

And no he ain't the only black man to win the world title, booker T won it and also the rock although you can say he's samoan.

 

[tystra09]

Wow thank you for deleting my post. Anyway, Ron Simmons and JBL had very good careers overall, but Simmons had the best singles career in my book. I remember when I was younger I watched the WWE (back then known as WWF) and one of my favorite tag teams was Bradshaw and Farooq. Farooq was in my mind what made that tag team work so well. He had more experience in my opinion. As stated before by others in this forum, he was the first recorded African American to win a Major Title. JBL had one of the longest title runs in the span of ten years.....until John Cena beat that record. The jist of it is that JBL was the longest reigning champion, but Ron Simmons is the first recorded African American Champion. That in my mind will be more lasting than JBL's reign as a "champion"