Abortion is Legal in the United States, Right?

[Razor]

Oh yeah, it still is. Phew. I thought that Women's Rights were being trampled all over when my back was turned. Those sneaky Republicans, you have to keep both eyes on them all the time. Or else they'll steal your children and eat your dreams. Or something like that.

Anyway, the point of the thread isn't the morality of Abortion. If you post in here to just say "Abortion is wroooong. You're going to hell Razor" then you can kindly shut the fuck up. I don't have any need for another Abortion Thread, and I'm sure FTS doesn't want to have to clean another one up. Let's get on with this bitch.

Let it Be Resolved That:

Abortion is a legal medical procedure in the United States.

Let it Further Be Resolved That:

Other legal medical procedures are either funded by government subsidies or directly covered by Medical Insurance

Let It Further Be Resolved That:

A Medical Insurance company that receives government subsidies should therefore be allowed to fund Abortions with that money.

Problem:

Blue Dog Democrats and Republicans are completely up in arms over medical insurance companies being able to fund abortions with tax payer money. Why? A majority of Americans aren't against abortion. Abortion is a legal medical procedure. In the eyes of the Law they might as well be arguing to stop funding of pacemakers.


So. Is this logical? Or am I committing a grand big logical fallacy that I'm just not seeing? Are the Senators and Congressman right in the opposition? Or are they just making fools of themselves in opposing the funding of a legal medical procedure? Stake your claim.

 

[FromTheSouth]

It's not Republicans blocking the legislation. We can't block anything. It's Democrats.

But, I will tell you that breast enhancement is a legal medical procedure. So are face lifts. So is optional gastric bypass. No optional procedures should be covered. If the baby will kill the mother, then a lifesaving abortion shouldn't be a problem.

But, oops, I'm a ****e and couldn't wait five minutes to find 75 cents to buy a condom is not an efficient use of tax money. But hey, you're a liberal, what do you know about government efficiency?

 

[Baller]

Well, I personally think abortion is wrong and figured I would just get that out of the way first and foremost, but anyway back to the question.

Originally Posted by Razor
Problem:

Blue Dog Democrats and Republicans are completely up in arms over medical insurance companies being able to fund abortions with tax payer money. Why? A majority of Americans aren't against abortion. Abortion is a legal medical procedure. In the eyes of the Law they might as well be arguing to stop funding of pacemakers.


So. Is this logical? Or am I committing a grand big logical fallacy that I'm just not seeing? Are the Senators and Congressman right in the opposition? Or are they just making fools of themselves in opposing the funding of a legal medical procedure? Stake your claim.

I think you are correct Razor, whether you agree with it or not, it is a LEGAL procedure in the United States, and that is the bottom line. If the government is willing to pay for it and not bother to ban it, then people have no right to complain about it. The government makes the laws, and we have the right to vote for an amendment, and it would never pass, and that is why I respect those peoples opinions, of who which to have an abortion, (even though it is there fault for having the child in the first place) and can live their life the way they choose, as long as they follow the law.

 

[Razor]

It's not Republicans blocking the legislation. We can't block anything. It's Democrats.

Yeah, and that Republican congressman who blocked unemployment benefits for weeks wasn't blocking anything up. Suuuure.

But, I will tell you that breast enhancement is a legal medical procedure. So are face lifts. So is optional gastric bypass. No optional procedures should be covered. If the baby will kill the mother, then a lifesaving abortion shouldn't be a problem.

Sure. However, abortions are more than a mere face lift. And you know that. Abortions are mainly used by poor, single mothers who couldn't care for their child anyway. This relieves the burden off of them, their family, their community, and the potential child having to be born into horrible conditions.

Oh, and aren't pacemakers optional? Aren't all "life-saving" procedures "optional?" Quite a loose term.

But, oops, I'm a ****e and couldn't wait five minutes to find 75 cents to buy a condom

Great job not only demonizing, but completely insulting every woman who gets an abortion. Fucking hell. Quite insulting, actually.

is not an efficient use of tax money. But hey, you're a liberal, what do you know about government efficiency?

What was that? I couldn't hear you over the 750 billion dollar Prescription Drug package passed by the Republicans for seniors while demonizing attempts to make healthcare affordable. It might be the brand spanking new Homeland Security Department tapping my internet connection. Damn, I should really get my hearing checked.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pro-choice. Now, I'm not using that to start the choice/anti-choice argument, but if you can't afford an abortion if you want one, you don't really have a choice, do you?

One of the reasons people opt for an abortion is that they can't afford a pregnancy and child. Now, if they can't afford that, do you think they can afford an abortion? Sure, we can talk about how they could have used contraception, but first, it's a bit late for that now. It's like telling a person who's just lost his legs after being hit by a train not to go on the train tracks. Second, contraception fails, and sometimes you simply don't have a choice in the matter. My point here is that you can't allow personal income to decide something like this. If a doctor got pregnant and her husband's a lawyer, you're not really going to be THAT hard up that you can't afford an abortion. But if a single mother falls pregnant, or 2 people with low-paid, necessary jobs, we'll force them to keep that child? There's a big problem with that.

 

[FromTheSouth]

Yeah, and that Republican congressman who blocked unemployment benefits for weeks wasn't blocking anything up. Suuuure.

He didn't block anything. He knew he wouldn't win, so he took that time to rail against spending. We can't afford these things we're trying to do. There just isn't enough money. This is where you say, "End the war." Good idea. Your guy expanded it though, so don't look at me. And guess what? If we stop spending that $80 billion, we'll only be $1.2 trillion in deficit, so yeah.

Sure. However, abortions are more than a mere face lift. And you know that. Abortions are mainly used by poor, single mothers who couldn't care for their child anyway.

What you meant to say is that it's for poor women who can't afford the baby and don't want the stretch marks that come with adoption, but continue.

This relieves the burden off of them,

Because relieving burdens from irresponsible skanks should be our top priority in these tough economic times.

their family, their community, and the potential child having to be born into horrible conditions.

Oh, and aren't pacemakers optional?

Give me a fucking break. Use your brain instead of dumb ass arguments like this.

Aren't all "life-saving" procedures "optional?" Quite a loose term.

This is so fucking stupid it is beyond my need to comment. Knee surgery so one can walk, essential. Abortion so someone can still party without having to pay for a babysitter, not essential.

Great job not only demonizing, but completely insulting every woman who gets an abortion. Fucking hell. Quite insulting, actually.

Well, I am sorry I offended your womb, but avoiding pregnancy is pretty easy.

What was that? I couldn't hear you over the 750 billion dollar Prescription Drug package passed by the Republicans for seniors while demonizing attempts to make healthcare affordable.

What was that? I couldn't hear you over the sound of the right actually doing something to improve healthcare.

It might be the brand spanking new Homeland Security Department tapping my internet connection.

It's so unfortunate that you have so much to hide. It's also unfortunate that you think the FBI is interested in your quest to buy an eighth from Tito.

Damn, I should really get my hearing checked.

As long as we don't have to pay for abortions, you might be able to.

 

[BladeRunner]

The biggest issue to me is, I shouldn't be forced to pay for someone's abortion.

If the government funds it, my taxes are going towards that.

That's like putting a gun to my head, and someone saying "Give me money for an abortion or I'll send you to jail."

Have you ever thought about it like that?

The government can use force to compel you to do what it says.

People shouldn't be forced to pay for something like that.

How would you like to be partially responsible for the next 50,000 abortions that go on in America? Do you like the idea that every time taxes come out of your paycheck they're going toward an abortion?

Because abortion is a controversial decision, and a controversial topic, the government should stay the hell out of it.

By the government paying for it, it's forcing everyone to take a side they may not agree with. And I guarantee you the shit will hit the fan.

Here's some modern polls that Americans were asked about the topic:

"Do you support or oppose allowing abortions to be paid for by public funds under a health care reform bill?"

Support Oppose Unsure


27% 67% 6%

"Generally speaking, are you in favor of using public funds for abortions when the woman cannot afford it, or are you opposed to that?"


Favor Oppose Indifferent Unsure
37% 61% 2% 1%

The first one is from a Quinnipiac University Poll and the second one is from a CBS News Poll. These were both done recently.

The American people do not want publicly funded abortions by a wide margin.

If you want to look at more poll info go to:

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

Everyone of these threads ends up the same way, we may as well have an official abortion thread, where the same people can sword fight with their dicks and strap-on's

I'm no fucking womens rights activist, not by a long shot, but some of the posts in this thread are disgusting, any female who gets an abortion is a cheap ****e, are you serious?

Some times I have trouble telling the difference between a republican and a confederate. I'll let Razor and Becca keep fighting this battle, as I can't match their quality. With that said, I am disgusted yet humored at the small world some people live in.

 

[The Doctor]

I try not to get involved in threads about abortions, because I think both sides are stupid.

Pro-Lifers cry and scream whenever a baby is murdered, and they picket abortion clinics. And all the while, they're infringing on free will.

Pro-Choicers aren't pro-choice; they're Pro-Abortion! Pro-choice just looks better on the leaflets.

Want to know what I am? I'm Actually Pro Choice. I may not like abortion, but I'm sure as hell not going to infringe on someone's right to choose.

Abortion is a medical practice, and therefore should be paid for in the same way as any other medical procedure. Don't bring religion or feelings into this. You're going to pay taxes no matter what, and I doubt most of the country even knows where they're going to. Just shut up and pay, and let them go wherever they go.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Pro-Choicers aren't pro-choice; they're Pro-Abortion! Pro-choice just looks better on the leaflets.

This is so stupid I'm not even sure why I'm giving my time to reply to it. Pro-Choice is NOT pro-abortion, the term is used in anti-choice propaganda to make the cause seem bad. Sure, there will be a TINY minority who think everyone should have an abortion, but that's not pro-choice. Pro-choice is putting your feelings aside and recognising that it's not your decision what someone does with their body.

Want to know what I am? I'm Actually Pro Choice. I may not like abortion, but I'm sure as hell not going to infringe on someone's right to choose.

...So pro-choice, then?

The biggest issue to me is, I shouldn't be forced to pay for someone's abortion.

If the government funds it, my taxes are going towards that.

That's like putting a gun to my head, and someone saying "Give me money for an abortion or I'll send you to jail."

Have you ever thought about it like that?

The government can use force to compel you to do what it says.

People shouldn't be forced to pay for something like that.

The Government funds a lot of STUPID things. Putting holes in the moon, for example. Why not allow the money to go to a cause which helps someone? You were 'forced' to pay for that. If you don't like paying taxes, move to a different country.

At the end of the day, we can argue technialities, we can argue personal feelings for abortion, and we can argue whether it should be legal. But do you really think it's right to force someone into keeping a child because they can't afford the abortion, when the wealthy, middle-class woman can have as many abortions as she likes because she can pay for it? You're looking at this too much in terms of your personal view, and what you think abortion is. But when you look at it practically, as I show in my previous post, abortion should be treated as any other procedure.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

I'm torn on this issue like no other. As everyone here should know by now, I am a populist/borderline Marxist. Should poor, uneducated women have the choice to terminate their pregnancy if they already have plenty of mouths to feed on a severely limited budget? Yes, I think that option should be open for them. Should young, pampered women who treat unprotected sex as something with no consequences have the right to an abortion? No, I don't think they should have that right.

But, it looks like it'd be illegal to discriminate based on socioeconomic status. So, all of this is to say that I have ambivalent feelings regarding abortion.

 

[BladeRunner]

The Government funds a lot of STUPID things. Putting holes in the moon, for example. Why not allow the money to go to a cause which helps someone? You were 'forced' to pay for that. If you don't like paying taxes, move to a different country.

Being forced to pay taxes for something that is against the will of the people is "taxation without representation".

And no, the people should not pay for stupid things.

The whole point of taxes is to go towards things the people generally agree they should go to.

This is a perfect example of a minority trying to force their own perspective onto a majority using force. This time the "force" being used is the government.

This isn't something the people agree on, as I've already shown.

And because the country is so split you shouldn't try to make it a one size fits all scenario.

Government should be about the people and the constitution, not tyranny of the minority.

 

[Loveless]

Pro-Lifers cry and scream whenever a baby is murdered, and they picket abortion clinics. And all the while, they're infringing on free will.

Wouldn't it be an infringement on free will to stop them from protesting?

Pro-Choicers aren't pro-choice; they're Pro-Abortion! Pro-choice just looks better on the leaflets.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Want to know what I am? I'm Actually Pro Choice. I may not like abortion, but I'm sure as hell not going to infringe on someone's right to choose.

Wait wait wait. So everyone under the banner of Pro-Choice actually likes abortions, except for you? You're the only one to see them as a necessary evil while we all love the clinics and hold abortion showers and coffee mornings to celebrate our favourites and encourage new members? Obviously I'm being facetious but the point is the same. This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. I mean honestly, did you even read back what you just wrote?
I'm not going to repeat everything I've said elsewhere like a repeating loop but none of us like abortions, we are in no way Pro on this matter. It's an unfortunate situation in which no-one is coming out the winner and a personal choice has to be made as to which is the lesser of two evils. And as you said, it's no-one else's right to infringe on that choice.

Abortion is a medical practice, and therefore should be paid for in the same way as any other medical procedure. Don't bring religion or feelings into this. You're going to pay taxes no matter what, and I doubt most of the country even knows where they're going to. Just shut up and pay, and let them go wherever they go.

You probably have a point but for sensitivities sake, it's a lot simpler just to respect peoples wishes on this. They don't have to like it but making them pay for it is a bit much.
I've always found it kind of ironic that the pro-lifers (predominantly Republicans and God botherers) are the same people who tend to be all for the death sentence and don't mind their tax dollars going towards that. Regarding unwanted children, if the left don't kill you before you're born, the right will get you later. Sadly there's probably some truth in that as unwanted children or those adopted tend to be far more likely to end up in jail.

 

[Loveless]

Being forced to pay taxes for something that is against the will of the people is "taxation without representation".

It's not against the will of the people, it's again the will of the majority which is not the same thing. And governments are constantly doing things against the will of the majority because, usually, the majority are wrong and not in possession of the full facts. It's nonsense to claim taxation without representation as the counter argument is very clearly represented (with lies, scaremongering, hatred and vilification)

The whole point of taxes is to go towards things the people generally agree they should go to.

Nope, it isn't. The whole point of taxes is giving power to those elected so they can do their job in the way they see fit. Taxes have nothing to do with direct democracy, you don't get to choose how the money is spent, you only choose who spends it. Obviously the 60%+ who are against publicly funded abortions didn't care about the issue enough to vote for the people who would represent them more closely.

This is a perfect example of a minority trying to force their own perspective onto a majority using force. This time the "force" being used is the government.

The minority are the ones elected, in a massive landslide if I remember correctly, so I guess they're not the minority after all.

Government should be about the people and the constitution, not tyranny of the minority.

Yeah you're right, the government should represent the tyranny of the majority instead. Go look up tyranny in the dictionary, it'll tell you it's the oppression of CHOICE.

 

[BladeRunner]

Yeah you're right, the government should represent the tyranny of the majority instead. Go look up tyranny in the dictionary, it'll tell you it's the oppression of CHOICE.

The constitution protects against the tyranny of the majority. Much like it protects against the tyranny of the minority. Both are tyrannies.

The people's will is tempered by the rule of law which is the constitution.

The whole problem nowadays is elitists thinking they know what's best, and then forcing one point of view upon everyone.

Remember plurality? Remember a variety of viewpoints? I thought liberals believed that people should be able to live how they wished?

The government shouldn't force one universal standard of living upon everyone.

Your argument is "to totally go by the majority is wrong."

My argument is "to totally go by the minority is wrong."

The constitution of America agrees with both of us.

The compromise is it shouldn't be the government's business.

It should be a personal thing. A private thing.

The government is a public thing. When you include others it's no longer a private thing.

To totally disregard what the people want because you think you always know what's best is delusive, elitist, and dangerous.

--------------

And one more thing.

How can you be pro choice if you're forcing people to pay for abortions?

Tell me what choice those people have?

 

[Loveless]

The constitution protects against the tyranny of the majority. Much like it protects against the tyranny of the minority. Both are tyrannies.

How is giving people a choice a tyranny? It's the exact opposite

The whole problem nowadays is elitists thinking they know what's best, and then forcing one point of view upon everyone.

OK, I'll assume you're referring to the Pro-Choicers as the elistists here. How are they forcing their point of view on anyone? Did I miss the Mandatory Abortions For All march? While we're advocating a personal right to choose, it's the Pro-Lifers who are the oppressing personal freedom by denying the right to choose.

Remember plurality? Remember a variety of viewpoints? I thought liberals believed that people should be able to live how they wished?

Again, we're not rounding up pregnant women in the middle of the night and taking them off to abortion camps. How is our viewpoint oppressing how the pro-lifers live?

The government shouldn't force one universal standard of living upon everyone.

See above

Your argument is "to totally go by the majority is wrong."

My argument is "to totally go by the minority is wrong."

The constitution of America agrees with both of us.

The compromise is it shouldn't be the government's business.

So you're advocating anarchy then?

It should be a personal thing. A private thing.

Which is exactly what it is now.

The government is a public thing. When you include others it's no longer a private thing.

Everybody needs representation.

To totally disregard what the people want because you think you always know what's best is delusive, elitist, and dangerous.

No-one is totally disregarding anything, as you've probably noticed there's a massive argument going on about it now. The fact is that if the people elected a government that took this position, therefore the government is representing the people's choice.

How can you be pro choice if you're forcing people to pay for abortions?

Tell me what choice those people have?

1. The people had the choice to elect someone different
2. Pro-choice refers to our stance on abortion, not taxation
3. People pay tax all the time that goes on thing's they'd object to, why should this be any different?

 

[BladeRunner]

How is giving people a choice a tyranny? It's the exact opposite

It's tyranny when you force someone to pay for someone else's abortion because it's FORCED.

OK, I'll assume you're referring to the Pro-Choicers as the elistists here. How are they forcing their point of view on anyone? Did I miss the Mandatory Abortions For All march? While we're advocating a personal right to choose, it's the Pro-Lifers who are the oppressing personal freedom by denying the right to choose.

You would assume wrong. I never said one thing about pro life or pro choice. This is about whether the government should fund abortions or not. I'm refering to elitists as those who want to push their viewpoint upon everyone, instead of everyone being free to think and live as they wish.

Again, we're not rounding up pregnant women in the middle of the night and taking them off to abortion camps. How is our viewpoint oppressing how the pro-lifers live?

This isn't about pro life pro choice for the 2nd time. This is about the government funding abortions with everyone's tax money. Your viewpoint only oppresses when you FORCE people to pay for what you think is the correct way to live.

So you're advocating anarchy then?

I'm advocating rule of law, rights of man, the constitution, and democracy.

Everybody needs representation.

Once again you misunderstand what I said. When I say the "government is a public thing" that means its a public service. When I say abortion is a private thing, that means it's not a public thing. It's a private personal thing that should be the decision of the individual. When you make others pay for it is no longer only the decision of the individual.

 

[HBK-aholic]

When you make others pay for it is no longer only the decision of the individual.

You don't make sense regarding this discussion at all, but the above quote just boggles my mind. How is someone having an abortion not their decision if a healthcare service pays for it? You know those people who get abortions also pay tax? We're not stealing off good never-having-an-abortion-it's murder people. The service should be there to benefit those who need it. Countless things are paid for by tax that doesn't benefit me in any way, but do I complain?

People are looking at this with their personal feelings on abortion way too much. The only logical way for this to be fair is for you to be able to get an abortion with government funding if necessary.

 

[BladeRunner]

How is someone having an abortion not their decision if a healthcare service pays for it? You know those people who get abortions also pay tax? We're not stealing off good never-having-an-abortion-it's murder people. The service should be there to benefit those who need it. Countless things are paid for by tax that doesn't benefit me in any way, but do I complain?

Ok this is the last thing I'm going to say on the topic.


Point 1:

To the people who want to pay for abortions, yes, it's fine for those people.

But as I've already shown the MAJORITY don't want to pay for other people's abortions!

Obviously you guys don't give a shit about what anybody else wants. You just want what you want and you're going to steal from others to get it.

You are stealing from them if they don't want to pay for the abortion. You are forcing them to pay for it anyway even though they don't want to.

If this weren't the government, we would be calling it extortion!

It's not about whether something from taxes benefits you or not, it's whether you're willing to pay for them or not.


Point 2:

If everyone pays for abortions through taxes, it is no longer a private individual thing. It's a public thing. And because it's a public thing the private individual no longer has the total decision on whether to have it or not. The individual has lost their autonomy on making the whole decision, because they're leaving it up to someone else.

And since the government is paying for it, it gets to make the decision about the abortion.

Do you see the problem here?

Even if you believe in abortion rights you're contradicting yourself by making other people pay for them. When other people pay for them, it's now not up to the individual but the group. And the group(government) gets to decide what you do with your body because it's their money.

Now if you want to make the whole decision on your own you have to leave other people's money out of it.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Ok this is the last thing I'm going to say on the topic.


Point 1:

To the people who want to pay for abortions, yes, it's fine for those people.

But as I've already shown the MAJORITY don't want to pay for other people's abortions!

The majority don't want to pay for most of the things tax pays for.

Obviously you guys don't give a shit about what anybody else wants.

No, that's the 'pro-life' movement.

You just want what you want and you're going to steal from others to get it.

You are stealing from them if they don't want to pay for the abortion. You are forcing them to pay for it anyway even though they don't want to.

If this weren't the government, we would be calling it extortion!

I don't WANT to pay tax on the hair cut I got, or the shirt I just bought. No one WANTS to pay tax.

Point 2:

If everyone pays for abortions through taxes, it is no longer a private individual thing. It's a public thing. And because it's a public thing the private individual no longer has the total decision on whether to have it or not. The individual has lost their autonomy on making the whole decision, because they're leaving it up to someone else.

And since the government is paying for it, it gets to make the decision about the abortion.

Do you see the problem here?

Um, how? I live in England, and I can go and get a free abortion if I so want one. That's MY choice, not Gordon Browns, or the public. It'd be my private, individual decision.

Even if you believe in abortion rights you're contradicting yourself by making other people pay for them. When other people pay for them, it's now not up to the individual but the group. And the group(government) gets to decide what you do with your body because it's their money.

Again...HOW? It's not the governments money, I pay the tax. Do you have any idea how ridiculous this argument sounds? You're telling me the government will tell me to get an abortion, or to keep the child, if I fall pregnant? That isn't how it works.

It's in no way contradictory, being pro-choice and AGAINST this is contradictory. Without the government paying for abortions, I wouldn't be able to afford one if I got pregnant now and decided I didn't want the child, meaning I'd be FORCED to go through the pregnancy - I wouldn't have a choice, which kind of goes against being pro-choice.

Now if you want to make the whole decision on your own you have to leave other people's money out of it.

Again, how? No one else would make the decision for me.

 

[Trill Co$by]

If you think an abortion is the right thing to do then your morals are 100% corrupt.

Who in the blue hell are you to play the hand of God and prevent life?

I get it, sometimes bad things happen to our young ladies, and they don't want to relive that moment, but why in the hell make someone else pay for actions they didn't commit? Why stop that baby from being born? Why not just put it up for adoption if you can't handle it? And for those who go out and have sex with the "Spray and pray" method, you're even worse. If you're so badass to go out and have sex, you better be prepared to raise the child that comes with it.

I for one think abortion should be illegal and have always felt that way. I'm glad that insurance companies don't help with abortions because they shouldn't have to. No human has the right to play God and prevent life from taking place.

 

[Spaceman Spif]

I'm torn about this subject, always have been. While I agree that we as free people should be able to choose, and a woman should be able to choose whether or not she gets an abortion or not as it is her right, I have a hard time understanding why they would do it. Why take an innocent life because you fucked up and got pregnant when you didn't want it to happen? It's still your choice but how is it fair to child growing inside you? I don't think it is.

Now I know and can understand better if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant due to it. I can almost see why they would want an abortion in that situation, but still a part of me says give them up for adoption, then again I can't know what it would feel like to carry the child of a rapist inside me for 9 months, yes the child is innocent, but sadly it's a constant 9 month reminder of a horrible event.

So I'm mixed on this subject, I support the right to choose, but I do not support the right to end a innocent life.