90's Region - #8 Stone Temple Pilots vs #25 Pantera

[IrishCanadian25]

3rd Round 90's / 00's Region Match

#8 Stone Temple Pilots vs #25 Pantera

Please take into account the entire body of work of the artists, their mark on the music industry and/or society as a whole, their influence on other artists, lyrics, music, etc. If you have not already done so, please review the rules of the tournament and the Wrestlezone Forums. Have fun!

​

 

[HellBoundPower]

Come on guys. We need more votesfor Pantera. As good as STP is, they shouldn't be able to top off Pantera. Pantera pioneered groove metal, and everyone in their band was talented as hell. Stone Temple Pilots are decent, but being that I'm not a big fan of grunge (I personally think it's VERY overrated) I have to go with Pantera.

Dimebag Darrell was a great guitarist, one of the best in metal. Vinnie Paul is king of the double bass, and Phil Anselmo is an awesome vocalist with an extensive range. Rex Brown is also a solid bass player. Stone Temple Pilot is pretty much known for Scott Weiland, and while their instrumentals are pretty good, they don't even compare to Pantera in my opinion. Just listen to Cowboys From Hell. That album tops anything STP has ever done.

Now I'm expecting to hear all the grunge fans say, "Pantera is just a bunch of noise." All you have to do is listen to their early work on Cowboys and Vulgar Display of Power to realize that they are a lot more talented than they let on in their later albums.

 

[justinsayne]

Oh for fuck sake, how the hell is this thing 6-2 in favor of STP, for fuck sake, STP is good but not nearly as fucking good as fucking Pantera, the band that put Metal back on the fucking charts, I mean for fuck sake just look at the impact Dime's death had on music in general, you can't go to a metal show these days without seeing some sort of tribute to the man, wether it just be a fan walking around with a tattoo of the guy, or wearing a shirt honoring the man's memory, or the guys on stage taking a moment and honoring the legend himself

Let's also look at all the bands that have spawned off of Pantera, you got Down, Superjoint, Damageplan, & fucking HellYeah, how many other bands can say that they spawned 4 solid bands from the one they were all collectively in together

and then you've got their mainstream success, everybody has heard CFH and Walk, they are two of the biggest songs in rock period, not just metal, but rock as a whole

Now after taking all that into consideration what has STP done that makes them more worthy to move on in this thing, they've had a few good albums but were really nothing more than just another grunge band, after they broke up they weren't really missed, and I can't remember the last time I've seen or heard anybody get excited about these guys, and this includes the announcement of them getting back together

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Oh for fuck sake, how the hell is this thing 6-2 in favor of STP, for fuck sake, STP is good but not nearly as fucking good as fucking Pantera, the band that put Metal back on the fucking charts, I mean for fuck sake just look at the impact Dime's death had on music in general, you can't go to a metal show these days without seeing some sort of tribute to the man, wether it just be a fan walking around with a tattoo of the guy, or wearing a shirt honoring the man's memory, or the guys on stage taking a moment and honoring the legend himself

Let's also look at all the bands that have spawned off of Pantera, you got Down, Superjoint, Damageplan, & fucking HellYeah, how many other bands can say that they spawned 4 solid bands from the one they were all collectively in together

and then you've got their mainstream success, everybody has heard CFH and Walk, they are two of the biggest songs in rock period, not just metal, but rock as a whole

Now after taking all that into consideration what has STP done that makes them more worthy to move on in this thing, they've had a few good albums but were really nothing more than just another grunge band, after they broke up they weren't really missed, and I can't remember the last time I've seen or heard anybody get excited about these guys, and this includes the announcement of them getting back together

FINALLY, a worthy debate!

Stone Temple Pilots all the way.

Justin, you're saying that Pantera put metal "back on the map." I am not sure how much I'd agree with that, but lets assume for arguements sake that is the case. STP was one of the pioneers of Grunge Rock. In fact, if Ozzy, Maiden, and Preist are the triad Gods of Metal, then Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, and STP are the Pentagon of Grunge. And Grunge was brand new - not a redeux. But for your sake we'll call it a push.

You've also chosen to play the martyr card. Yes, Dimebag's death was a terrible tragedy, but his death didn't make them a better band. Phil Anselmo's death would have made them a better band. (joking.) But had Weiland died for whatever reason, I think there would have been a similar cry. In fact, moreso, since STP's musical reach was far larger than Pantera's in terms of fan base.

Justin, you listed 4 mediocre bands that spawned off of Pantera. STP spawned off a decent band in "Army of Anyone" and of course "Velvet Revolver." Do you know why STP spawned off less bands than Pantera? Because they stayed together longer and reassembled faster.

I was shocked that you went the mainstream rock route with Cowboys From Hell and Walk. SHOCKED that anyone would take the mainstream arguement with them and Pantera against STP, so this may hurt a bit. CFH and Walk, and for your sake let's add Cemetary Gates since that was the hit song off the popular Demon Knight Soundtrack. HELL, I'm in a good mood, I will even give you "Five Minutes Alone." That's 4 "mainstream" rock songs that were only so mainstream outside of the metalhead subculture.

Stone Temple Piots- Plush, Creep, Sex Type Thing, Wicked Garden, Vasoline, Interstate Love Song, Dancing Days, Lady Picture Show, Trippin' On a Hole in a Paper Heart, Sour Girl. GAME OVER.

Then, there is your most egregious point of all:

after they broke up they weren't really missed, and I can't remember the last time I've seen or heard anybody get excited about these guys, and this includes the announcement of them getting back together

Many of the shows on their HUGE 2008 tour are sold out right now. Fair seats are going for $90+ on Stub Hub. Do the research. Every major local radio station has been doing STP ticket giveaways for WEEKS now. Nobody's excited? Are you kidding? People are thrilled they are back together! I guess those are the same people who propelled the debut album "Core" to go Platinum 8x in the US and 2x in Canada. Pantera's best effort? Vulger Display of Power. Platinum 2x. But yeah, they're more mainstream.

STP in a...dare I say it...WALK!

 

[HellBoundPower]

Justin, you're saying that Pantera put metal "back on the map." I am not sure how much I'd agree with that, but lets assume for arguements sake that is the case. STP was one of the pioneers of Grunge Rock. In fact, if Ozzy, Maiden, and Preist are the triad Gods of Metal, then Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, and STP are the Pentagon of Grunge. And Grunge was brand new - not a redeux. But for your sake we'll call it a push.

Pantera helped revitalize metal in the 90s when grunge was at the top of the charts. Pantera was almost the only thing keeping Metal alive when alternative rock, grunge, and rap were dominating the charts. Stone Temple Pilots were just playing off the current trend at the time of playing alternative/grunge type music, because that's what was popular at the time. Pantera was staying true to their metal roots and putting out quality music while STP was copying Soundgarden and Pearl Jam.

You've also chosen to play the martyr card. Yes, Dimebag's death was a terrible tragedy, but his death didn't make them a better band. Phil Anselmo's death would have made them a better band. (joking.) But had Weiland died for whatever reason, I think there would have been a similar cry. In fact, moreso, since STP's musical reach was far larger than Pantera's in terms of fan base.

I don't think so. Dimebag is celebrated by fans and musicians alike, not just because of his amazing guitar playing, but because of his personality. He was a nice, fun loving guy that got along with pretty much anybody. The same can't be said for Scott Weiland, whose had many personal problems with people, and of course the drug problems. While I think Weiland's death would be looked on as a tragedy, I don't think it would've had the same impact as that of the late Dimebag Darrell.

Justin, you listed 4 mediocre bands that spawned off of Pantera. STP spawned off a decent band in "Army of Anyone" and of course "Velvet Revolver." Do you know why STP spawned off less bands than Pantera? Because they stayed together longer and reassembled faster.

Have you actually listened to those bands? While I'll agree that Hellyeah and Superjoint aren't the best, they're better than mediocre. Damageplan was good for what they were, and I think they would've been better if were able to put out more than one album. And Down is AMAZING. I question the music taste of anyone that thinks Down is mediocre. They are what rock/metal should be, unlike all the stupid emo bands out today. They put heart and soul back into music, and make it sound good. Every single person in that band is filled with talent.

And then you have Army of Anyone, a band that sound like all the other bands coming out today. I will admit that they're okay, but nothing special. And Velvet Revolver is only any good because of Slash. I'm not really interested in their music, especially after seeing the video for "Slither" where Weiland is running around dancing like a fairy in tight silver pants. Nothing compared to Down.

And another point I have to make is that STP wasn't together longer. They were together from 1987 until 2003. Pantera was together from 1981 until 2003. And granted Phil didn't join until 1987, but that would put them together for the same amount of time. The only difference is that Pantera doesn't have a chance to reunite like STP recently did, because of the murder of Dimebag Darrell.

I was shocked that you went the mainstream rock route with Cowboys From Hell and Walk. SHOCKED that anyone would take the mainstream arguement with them and Pantera against STP, so this may hurt a bit. CFH and Walk, and for your sake let's add Cemetary Gates since that was the hit song off the popular Demon Knight Soundtrack. HELL, I'm in a good mood, I will even give you "Five Minutes Alone." That's 4 "mainstream" rock songs that were only so mainstream outside of the metalhead subculture.

Stone Temple Piots- Plush, Creep, Sex Type Thing, Wicked Garden, Vasoline, Interstate Love Song, Dancing Days, Lady Picture Show, Trippin' On a Hole in a Paper Heart, Sour Girl. GAME OVER.

Well you could also add "I'm Broken", "This Love", "Drag The Waters", and "Revolution Is My Name", but that's not really the point. Pantera is looked at the way they are because they were able to get to #1 on the Charts with little or no radio airplay. Pantera was a band that could sell without the help of radio and MTV, which they had very little of throughout their whole career. The same can't be said for STP. If they didn't play grunge, and if it wasn't for the popularity of Nirvana, MTV wouldn't have played STP. STP was just following the trend that all bands at that time except Pantera were. All the hits they came out with were promoted all over the place, and almost thrown in your face, while Pantera wasn't played at all.

Many of the shows on their HUGE 2008 tour are sold out right now. Fair seats are going for $90+ on Stub Hub. Do the research. Every major local radio station has been doing STP ticket giveaways for WEEKS now. Nobody's excited? Are you kidding? People are thrilled they are back together! I guess those are the same people who propelled the debut album "Core" to go Platinum 8x in the US and 2x in Canada. Pantera's best effort? Vulger Display of Power. Platinum 2x. But yeah, they're more mainstream.

Of course they're sold out. Everyone wants to see STP back together. It's nostalgia at it's finest. If Dimebag wasn't dead, and Pantera were to get back together, I think it would be just as big, if not more so. And as for the amount of albums they've sold, STP played a more popular kind of music, so of course they sold more albums. Again, STP was playing the trendy kind of music at the time, while Pantera were staying true to themselves, and still selling albums with a type of music that wasn't nearly as popular. I think that's more impressive personally.

 

[justinsayne]

Well HellBound pretty much said everything in response to IC25 in a better fashion than I would, but their is one big problem I have with IC25's debate tatics in this tournament, one thing I've seen him do not only in this thread but a few others, and that is point out album sales, and their rank on billboard charts, you see the problem with this is if you use that as your way of determining that a band is better than their competition than your saying bands like Nicklehack, Creed, and Saliva are all good, they are not, they are shit, and alot of shitty bands sell records, I mean Christ if your going by album sales than the fucking Backstreet Boys would be better than a lot of the bands in this tournament, just cause a band sells a lot of records doesn't make them better, it just means they were more marketable

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Well HellBound pretty much said everything in response to IC25 in a better fashion than I would, but their is one big problem I have with IC25's debate tatics in this tournament, one thing I've seen him do not only in this thread but a few others, and that is point out album sales, and their rank on billboard charts, you see the problem with this is if you use that as your way of determining that a band is better than their competition than your saying bands like Nicklehack, Creed, and Saliva are all good, they are not, they are shit, and alot of shitty bands sell records, I mean Christ if your going by album sales than the fucking Backstreet Boys would be better than a lot of the bands in this tournament, just cause a band sells a lot of records doesn't make them better, it just means they were more marketable

I think mainstream success is a fair criterion when discussing whether a band is "the greatest ever" or not. Obviously not the only criterion, but one that deserves SOME attention. I bring up the album sales and chart positions only because it is among the only quantifiable, concrete figures we can produce in these debates. Most everything else is purely subjective, which is great too. I am trying to mix it up.

For every debate I make on the album sales and chart positions of an STP or a Bon Jovi, I will make a point about the musical variety of Live's "Throwing Copper" and the magic of Queen's "Kind of Magic Tour" at Wembley in the mid-80's.

As for you bringing up Creed and Nickleback, I think the fact that they have both been bounced from this tournament is proof enough that album sales are FAR from the only criterion we go by. But the fact that they made the tournament and advanced a round shows they do have some merit because of their broad reach and mainstream success. Not sure WHY you brought up Saliva, their albums sales have been fairly pedestrian at best. They are certainly not multi-platinum artists like STP.

Well you could also add "I'm Broken", "This Love", "Drag The Waters", and "Revolution Is My Name", but that's not really the point.

I listed the songs I listed to respond to Justin's arguement that Pantera had mainstream hits. It was never a debate about whether or not the songs were any good. I like A LOT of Pantera music, and man is it handy in the gym. But Justin made the indefensable arguement that Pantera had as much mainstream hit influence as STP, which is Far Beyond False.

On a side note, HBP and Justin are both getting Green Rep when I hit my home CPU. Great arguement we have going here, I'd love to see some more POSTERS chime in on the debate, instead of just voting.

 

[HellBoundPower]

I listed the songs I listed to respond to Justin's arguement that Pantera had mainstream hits. It was never a debate about whether or not the songs were any good.

I know. I was listing those because they were also singles from Pantera. All of them were singles and had music videos made to them, which is why I brought those particular songs up.

Well it looks like Pantera is starting to make a comeback, only down by 3. We need RVDgurl here to give another vote to Pantera. As much as STP is loved, I really hope Pantera takes this one.

 

[mouthforcombat]

Are you kidding me? Stone Temple Pilots? Scott Weiland is a complete rip off of Chris Cornell. As mentioned above, STP sounds way too similar to Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains, and Soundgarden, all terrible bands that became big off of a short lived trend. There is a reason grunge is not around anymore, America sobered up and put the drugs away for the most part (minus rural areas). Sure, STP sounds alright when you're stoned off your ass, then again, so do women complaining and pots and pans crashing in to eachother because you're numb to the sound. Pantera is EPIC. Stone Temple Pilots? I don't think so.

Furthermore, in Weiland's long career of following and copying Chris Cornell, who is nothing special, himself, does it not seem funny that Velvet Revolver sounds JUST LIKE Audio Slave? Grunge is terrible, STP is terrible, and so are the headache inducing vocals of Cornell, Weiland, and every other singer for every other rock band in the early 90's. I think the biggest key here is that, as mentioned by HellBoundPower, Pantera rose to the top with NO airplay, strictly word of mouth. STP was forced down our throats similar to deep throating in a porn movie. Long live Pantera.

 

[FoleyIsGod]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48oMTmYcz4

Just was looking through Youtube and found a Black Label Society song dedicated to Dimebag.

Its so damn moving, RIP Dimebag, was taken from us wayyyy too soon.