Yaz Tells All-A WZCW dot com Exclusive

Discussion in 'WZCW.com' started by Rainbow Yaz, Jan 19, 2017.

  1. Just FalKonika

    Just FalKonika I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    Yes, all of these men deserve the Hall of Fame slot. I will not argue here. However, some of these men will be remembered not for their World championships, but for the stories and other accomplishments. Matt Tastic is the greatest Mayhem competitor of all time. Record holding 4x Mayhem champion. Competed against some of the best Mayhem competitors, like Alex Bowen, Steamboat Ricky, and Vega, and beat them all. Titus is the longest reigning Eurasian champion, the original babyface of WZCW, one of, if not, the best face in WZCW history, and just one of the best characters ever.

    For the short time Big Will was around, he accomplished quite a bit. His feud with Gus over the Elite championship might be one of the brighter spots of the dark era. Probably the first proper feud. He was a good RPer, did well to win a Lottery, and finally took the belt away from Joseph Rios. He faded away since the World title win, but admittedly, he is one of the better guys who was around, and if he came about in the Golden era, or even now, he'd be a World title contender for sure.

    Here is where we start diving into the Celeste Crimson territory - remembering the character for being an influential character with not much to their name.

    Vengeance, since debuting, was a very good RPer, and always managed to keep himself in a title picture. He was in the first two King for a Day matches. He challenged for the Elite X, Eurasian, and World championships on multiple occasions, with the feud against Showtime for the Eurasian title in a Best out of Three series being a highlight, as well as his match against Everest for the World title in a Buried Alive Match. Following this, he teamed up with Ty Burna, and the two became a wrecking ball force that nobody could stop, eventually leading to the World title run... however, the World title reign lasted only PPV cycle, as he lost the belt to Ty Burna in the first ever Hell in a Cell match at Unscripted II. That was Vengeance's last match.

    He had a good career, had some memorable moments, and was the original demonic character in the fed. However, since then, Ty Burna has taken the mantle as the best demonic character WZCW has ever seen. He has overshadowed Vengeance completely, despite Vengeance being the character to really push Ty to the main event scene. Dr. Zeus, The Beard, Dorian Slaughter... all of these disturbing characters really cemented their names in WZCW with World title wins. However, out of all those names, Ty Burna is only truly deserving of a Hall of Fame spot. Not Zeus. Not Beard. Not Slaughter... yet, Vengeance gets in? Why? Because we remember him as a great character? Because he has a cult following?

    Don't get me wrong, I love me some Vengeance. Excellent character with a good, short career. Started well, ended well... but he only ever accomplished a World title. One title. Same as Celeste Crimson. Granted, Celeste only won the Tag belt, but it's still only one title. Celeste Crimson was remembered as fondly, and is as influential as Vengeance (i.e. Vengeance was to dark characters as Celeste was to female characters). She had just as many memorable moments, like being at the forefront of the Team WZCW vs. Apostles of Chaos storyline, the amazing Chris K.O. vs. Celeste Crimson feud for the Eurasian championship, and being apart of the first power couple of WZCW between Steven Holmes & Celeste Crimson with that shock reveal after feuding with him. Also, the fact that she competed at the very first show in WZCW, 10 YEARS AGO, and is now competing at Kingdom Come, in the current day, even if it is a one-off showing... that's impressive. That's very impressive. Nobody else has done that. In fact, I could classify that as an achievement.

    The only thing differentiating Vengeance & Celeste is the caliber of title they held, which both only held for one PPV cycle with no defenses. Celeste had the tag. Vengeance had the World. World > Tag. To me, this is the only distinction, because both characters are as influential as each other, and had as many memorable moment as each other. Whilst Vengeance's career was small, it was packed full of stuff. Celeste is more spread out, yes, but god damnit, 10 years between her first and possibly last match? Dude... that's unheard of in any e-fed.

    I feel if you put Vengeance in, you put Celeste Crimson in.
     
    #51
  2. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
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    I stand by the fact that Celeste shouldn't go in. If Celeste was a male character would you still think she should go in? Gender shouldn't define status, everyone should be on an equal playing field.

    Ten years is a great accomplishment, but like you said in ten years she only achieved one title. That isn't Hall of Fame material. That is honestly kind of poor. You mention the AoC vs. WZCW feud, as did I. Good feud and Celeste and Titus carried team WZCW, yet they still lost. K.O. vs. Celeste? Not that memorable, and she still lost.

    I respect your opinion, but I think you are pushing too hard for Celeste because she was female. I think that is the defining charteristic there. Her biggest accomplishment was being born with two X chromosomes.

    For the record of the guys I listed that I pitched, I only ended up backing two, Tastic and Constantine.

    If this was real life wrestling and Celeste did what she did, I'd be much more open tosay she deserves a nod, but she isn't some great trailblazer. Ech is a dude who decided to RP as a female and happened to be pretty decent for a long period of time.
     
    #52
    Da Prophet likes this.
  3. Da Prophet

    Da Prophet Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I feel like the final part is where you put all your arguments together so it's quicker to just breakdown this part. Totally disagree with you.

    AoC vs. WZCW sucked btw. I said it then and stand by it now.

    Yeah and it's a massive difference. A tag title is nowhere near as valuable as the World Championship. The Tag Titles have been for years the easiest belts to get. In her TEN YEARS in the fed, as you liked to point out, Celeste has managed to capture only ONE title and it happens to be the easiest of the lot to grab (maybe only the mayhem title is below it). It's still one of the easiest and that is all she has. Vengeance has the hardest title and he took it from Titus who at the time was the biggest face in the fed and Lee was at the height of his powers before this most recent run. You can't just have a throwaway like of "caliber of the title" because that's the entire point separating them. They are both great characters with major impact on the fed but one of them reach the top of the fed and the other never achieved anything close to that. That's the difference. The World Championship is the reason Vengeance gets in and keeps Celeste out. You can't compare them as having only one title reign when it's the HARDEST against one of the EASIEST.

    And one achieved a higher peak than the other, defeated one of the biggest face characters of all time and held the World Championship. The other held a tag title. You have to win some gold to get into the Hall of Fame. It's not the Hall of Very Good. The best of the best are supposed to be in the Hall of Fame. Not every character who had a memorable moment. You keep it for the elite and Vengeance had a peak that Celeste didn't have.

    10 years and only one tag title reign. Vengeance had a much shorter career but still managed to get the World Championship and had many memorable moments. The length of her career doesn't help your argument because in TEN years Celeste, if she was a Hall of Fame character, would have won something other than a single tag title. One of the easiest to capture as I've said before. Ten years and that is all she has. It's not worthy of being alongside the other Hall of Famers. Her impact is big but you cannot put her into the Hall of Fame with a World Championship and a run at the top of the fed like Vengeance had. His last few months he was in that main event scene so it's not like it was one PPV cycle either. For a ten year career I expect more than just one tag title reign.

    I disagree completely.
     
    #53
  4. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
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    [​IMG]
     
    #54
  5. Just FalKonika

    Just FalKonika I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    The only argument I had was that Celeste inspired female characters, similar to how Vengeance is influential towards darker characters. I could make an argument that Celeste is more memorable for being an influential figure towards women, than Vengeance was to darker characters, because Ty Burna is the premiere dark character, and I'd wager more people credit Ty than Vengeance in that regard; however, to say Celeste should go in purely because she's a female is dumb. I agree with you on that. I'm comparing the influence she had towards characters who had a gimmick or characteristic trait, much like Vengeance.

    To be fair, I'm going to use Yaz's reason before, because I had to go to dinner.

    Conversation for another time.

    I did mention that the World is greater than the tag titles. You don't have to explain that to me. I also understand that the tag titles have been, at many occasions, the easiest title to win/challenge due to lack of competition. This, I understand. However, Vengeance's World title reign was very lacklustre. Yes, he beat Titus, and Titus was very good, but the reign was, more or less, a tool used in the Vengeance/Ty Burna feud to establish Ty Burna as a monster. A transitional champion. Similar to Celeste's title.

    The bold part - Fair enough. Excellent point. I'll concede that one.

    The underlined part - This really irks me. Yes, I understand that winning titles proves you're the best, but Joseph Rios was a World champion. Two times, in fact. Stories told suggest she shouldn't be remembered, and is a black stain. Should he get in? But he is a two-time World champion, after all. That logic alone, he should be ushered in before Vengeance.

    Sure, I am using an exception to the rule, but why discount someone's impact? I'm not saying Vengeance didn't have an impact, because he did (even if it isn't remembered by the newer folks), but Celeste was an influential figure.

    Despite the inability to show any championships, Lottery wins or KFAD briefcases for her ten years, she was still a member of the first ever show, and is competing at Kingdom Come VIII. That, in itself, is an impressive feat. Who else has that accomplishment? I mean, I'd argue that one of the best feats Matt Tastic holds is that he has competed for SEVEN YEARS STRAIGHT. Nobody else has really done that. (The closest is Dave, Ty, Showtime, and myself, but all of us have switched characters and/or taken significant breaks). Why couldn't Celeste have an accolade as being around for 10 years? In fed life, where many major characters disappear in a couple of years, that is impressive.
     
    #55
  6. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
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    This part confuses me. Are you arguing that Celeste is the reason for gimmicky characters? Without looking, what was Celeste's gimmick? Because honestly, outside of yourself, who is a fan of fed history and have been around for a while, most people only remember her as a female. That isn't a gimmick or characteristic trait. That is a gender.

    I'm not trying to be the big bad Head of Creative and keep Celeste out. We took a vote, she gained some support, but ultimately she fell short of making it this year. Maybe she will make it next year. I won't vote for her, but I'm not keeping her out due to some vendetta.

    And winning gold doesn't automatically get you in. I mentioned Rios in my talk. Since he was well before my time all I had heard were rumors of what he did. I spoke with Lee, and he confirmed that Rios was a big a douche turd as the rumors told. Beard, as good as Theo was, is likely never going to go in. Dorian Slaughter had one of the hottest years on record, he won't go in. Garth Black had a crazy career rejuvenation and won the strap, but I'm not sure he gets in either. Just because I don't think you are a Hall of Fame character, doesn't mean I dislike you or think you are bad.

    I don't buy that she should get in just because she was around a while. Plenty of pro athletes who are slightly above average carve out long solid careers that aren't worthy of note. If you want to count her longevity as an accolade, fine, I will concede that, but you also have to take into consideration that she had that much more time than others to accomplish something and never did.
     
    #56
  7. Just FalKonika

    Just FalKonika I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    No, Celeste is influential for people who began making female characters, and opening the doors for more creativity. Back in the day, females weren't allowed to be made, hence the Vixen's division becoming a thing. But, as time moved forward, and the creative team became more open to more characters, such as funny characters like Action Saxton & Saboteur, and really gimmicky characters like Alhazred and SHIT, so too did the option to choose a gender, and make a female character.

    I believe this is a healthy discussion. I have a differing viewpoint to Prophet, yourself, and the voting outcome, so I'm expressing my argument. I don't view this as a vendetta, or you being drunk with power. I know you, and you wouldn't do that. I understand how this came to be, but I simply disagree, and I'm sharing my opinion.

    EDIT: This quote reminds me: just to clear the air of any potential arguments, I'm not taking this stance because Eve Taylor is facing Celeste Crimson in a match at Kingdom Come, and my arguments at her not being in the Hall of Fame isn't fuelled because of my disdain for not being able to face a Hall of Famer at the big event, making the win more meaningful to Eve. I do not have any disdain, actually. This is just a genuine belief of mine, regardless of our match.

    I did say that she didn't accomplish much in her lengthy stay, but for an e-fed, staying for a few years is quite the accomplishment.
     
    #57
  8. Da Prophet

    Da Prophet Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    You mean Vengeance's title reign and loss helped established the greatest character in the history of the fed? Yeah. You attempted to use it against Vengeance but the fact that his title reign helped push Ty into that spot and that storyline was all about Ty rising to the top spot actually helps Vengeance. It shows a clear moment in time when he had a huge impact, a long lasting impact, which I'd argue is bigger than anything Celeste did.

    It's not similar to Celeste's title reign. Vengeance's had a much bigger impact while Celeste's is largely forgotten. It's not even close to the impact each title reign had. It's a silly comparison to make.

    Rios example is a mute point. He kept the title and didn't RP for matches. You know that. That's why he doesn't get in and for his backstage antics. He's a two time champion because of a storyline also. They had him drop the title and win it back on the same night. You know that. Vengeance beat Titus during his best run. Vengeance goes in over Rios every day of the week. That is why Rios doesn't get to go into the Hall of Fame. His achievements are meaningless because of his abuse of power.

    Rios has a negative impact on the fed. Therefore does not belong in the Hall of Fame. Again, as I pointed out with earlier, Vengeance had a major impact. Celeste was influential but you can't live solely on that for the Hall of Fame. You need to win. Celeste doesn't have the accomplishments to stack up with the other Hall of Famers and her influence alone doesn't bring her up to their level.

    For Vengeance I believe his impact and that importance of the World Championship reign and ultimate defeat earns him a spot in the Hall of Fame.

    That is more of an accomplishment for Ech. Staying around for that long is something to cheer Ech about but not Celeste. So what you stayed around but what did you win? It's impressive that Ech has remained in the fed for that time and that he RPed on the first show and is still doing it now. I give Ech all the respect in the world for that but it's not a reason to put his character in the Hall of Fame.

    Dude, come on. You just said that Celeste didn't accomplish much in her lengthy stay. If she didn't accomplish much in her lengthy stay than why would she go into the Hall of Fame. Vengeance accomplished much more than Celeste in far less time and that is why he gets in and she does not.

    The Hall of Fame is for people who accomplish things during their stay. You just said Celeste didn't accomplish much in her stay. Why would she get into the Hall of Fame if she didn't accomplish much other than sticking around? That's more of an accomplishment for Ech the handler, not Celeste the character.
     
    #58
  9. Spidercanrana

    Spidercanrana Should've Reinstated The Fox
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    In defense of Crimson, and I'm sure FalK would agree, writing a woman character is a hard task for a man. I've taken college writing courses where students failed to build a character of the opposite sex because they relied on tropes and unintentional sexism to make said man/woman stand out. It is a testament to Ech for not only Not writing a garbage female character, but doing so twice with Kagura (who IMO should go in way before Celeste).

    Hell of a lot harder to write than some dark, satanic spooky guy.

    Then again this is more props to the handler than to a fed character. I'm not arguing Vengeance's achievements over Celeste's. But I doubt anybody really knows the layer of difficulty in writing women here except those that already have.
     
    #59
  10. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    I can't believe that you didn't do the big reveal? I don't even know what it is...

    That said, you've did an amazing first podcast there, mate. You've obviously got a mind for the Fed and the passion you have for it is clear for everyone to see. I really hope that you want to continue it. Even if you do it before every PPV, that'd be awesome.
     
    #60
  11. Hyorinmaru

    Hyorinmaru Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
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    I before every PPV would be awesome
     
    #61
  12. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
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    I'll do another before Apocalypse. Sitting and talking for two straight hours was a bit of a task. I do enjoy sharing my knowledge and stories, and I'll try to get my girlfriend's dog a muzzle before the next recording. Barking bitch she is.
     
    #62
  13. a0161613

    a0161613 WZCW's Mr Excitement

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    Just started this epic. You're doing good so far. Major props - not matter what you thinking about your speaking, at least you had the guts to do it. I just wouldn't.

    Questions for next time:
    What was your thoughts on the Strikeforce/Sacrificial Altar, specifically the KC War Games match?
    We've discussed a lot of things by PM in this cycle. Without spilling too many beans now, you can talk about a lot of things that we have shot around, the things that have and have not made the shows etc.
     
    #63
  14. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    If characters like Reynolds, SHIT, Chris KO, Rush, Smith, Manzo, and Bratchny arent HOF worthy then Celeste shouldn't be either. Perhaps there should be a separate wing for celebrating RP'ers instead.
     
    #64
  15. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    Make sure you listen to my podcast tomorrow...
     
    #65
  16. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias Natural 20
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    I don't get the logic behind that. Our screennames do not exist in kayfabe in the fed. Handlers wing is an awful idea. There are better ways to go about it.
     
    #66
  17. Spidercanrana

    Spidercanrana Should've Reinstated The Fox
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    Have people vote in a name instead. We kinda have some idea of who would fit in. There's a clear difference in wanting someone like Action Saxton in compared to, say, Mr. Butty.
     
    #67
  18. Lee

    Lee Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's Supermod!
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    Listening to the podcast. Here's my LD style thoughts.

    • Siblings. There was Corey and Alex Bowen.
    • Agreed on the pre show RP mention. Especially with the discussions we had backstage about it.
    • Flex is probably one of the most underrated people in the fed at the minute. The two together will be a great match.
    • I struggle saying Salvific Knights myself. The Vis Imperium storyline is so overlapping it's great.
    • Reynolds/Abel I agree with how intriguing the Abel character is.
    • Eve/Celeste this should be a great match. Especially with how they have built up over the cycle.
    • Blades v Black is two people who could be face or heel depending on how they're facing due to their actions and how they take it. I do agree that Black needs the fire.
    • Titus v Theron. I pronounce it as Canadian Eh Avison. Thanks for your kind words. Aww shux <3 From what you said on how I changed the title is what my aim was.
    • Myself and Showtime had discussed the cash in during the match a while back.
    • Bruce Irwin was awful. One of those had a good idea but realise there's nothing concrete to add to it.
    • Cooper has been a great turn, loving the work you two are doing in your match.
    • Will was Elite X Champion not EurAsian.
    • Ty fears Vengeance. I really pushed for Vengeance because he's someone that should be remembered in the fed.
    • I'll not go near the HOF debate, it's covered in depth here.
    • You rock Yaz! We care :D
    • TBK and Doc are a great combo. Brilliant RPer.
    • Not looked at the book this so can't comment.
    • I have Borderlands but haven't played it. Maybe I should. It's been 8 years since release. That's one helluva rage quit!
    • Ha I could see you as a shitty New England fan. You said Reditt...Crocker will no doubt appear soon.
    • Nice question by Jeff about different RP style. Filler reduction is something I'm very passionate about. If I take something out and it makes no difference to my RP then why should I have it in?
    • Your dog made me jump! It's midnight here lol
    • Guiding Everton to EPL title will always been a pain the arse! Ha.
    • You're right in fav face and heel question, it does change too much.
    • Who will reign in 2017? I can really see Flex taking the next step.
    • I did like the Mikey/Constantine feud but it could have been way more.
    • I relate to you on the bad champion thing and that was me at this point last year, you've got it in you to push and make legends of that man.
    • You've done a great job as HOC. Really honoured to be on creative under you.
    • My housemate thought I had a dog in my room now.
    • The two fed idea. Little known fact WZCW was born as a spin off fed from another fed. This was on the old WZ forums pre 2006. Canonically that was removed. I think Ech may have been part of this. Ricky (Steamboat) and Everest definitely were.
    • We've all been there in being pissed off at losing and wanting to quit. Glad you stuck through it!
    • Dave does rock.
    • Wait Dynamite was Joe West? Bloody hell that makes so much sense now.
    • I asked this question just because I knew you'd say this about Prophet. He's brilliant and does so much that you don't see.
    • Dagger as the sheriff of WZ :lmao: he's learning really well on creative.
    • Me a legend? Aww! I forgot you said that, thanks for the apology though man. I don't hate you.
     
    #68
  19. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
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    You know I have said a piece or two here and there about the Strikeforce/TSA feud but I have never gotten to go over it in depth. I have good and bad memories of that feud so it should make for an interesting listen.

    I appreciated you dropping me a quick Facebook message about liking it. I'm gonna try to cut down on the length next time for sure, maybe try an outline before I record to make things flow better.

    Trying to get Everton to the top of the EPL, I hate it haha. I managed a third place finish, eight points behind Chelsea for the lead. It is so hard to contend without the big money owner. It is such a vast difference from American sports where they have rules in place to try to prevent teams from just spending crazy amounts of money to contend. Shotaro and I actually had a really interesting conversation a while back about that. I miss Shotaro.
     
    #69
  20. Skairipa Matrix

    Skairipa Matrix 3 Time Elite Openweight Champion

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    I just finished listening to the podcast, it was a good listen even though it was a bit long. It was easy to undestand what you were saying even when your dog was barking and I know what it's like to have dogs bark at annoying times, I have two dogs that like to bark a lot.

    As one of the people who asked about the pre show being optional and ended up not RPing for it I wanted to say I didn't see optional and decide to no show. Jam and I briefly talked about coming up with an RP but I had to leave for the weekend as of early afternoon Friday and we had nothing good by like Wednesday, and I didn't wanna rush anything and have it suck when I came back so I just decided to take the round off. But I already came up with something for being left off the card to fit into my next RP so there's that.

    Also I know we basically RP'd as faces in our first RP and figured that would probably cost us, but we figured it'd be easier to portray ourselves as underdogs rather than try to out heel the champs. I think we'll be able to heel it up better from now on though.

    As far as me being a Colts (and Broncos) fan, yes I do live in Massachusetts, but I grew up with my dad hating the Patriots and liking Miami and the rest of my family being Patriot fans, I wanted to be original and Peyton Manning perked my interest right away so Colts it was. The year Manning was injured and Tebowmania was running wild something drew me into Denver and then Manning signed there the next year so I was rooting for both teams and now I'll always do so. I hate Brady so much, and their fans are unbearable douchebags for the most part so them losing makes my day anyway. I'll probably talk more NFL with you in your Q & A thread sometime.
     
    #70
  21. The Doctor

    The Doctor Great and Devious

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    Fantastic cast. Long but absolutely packed with content so it was good. Future ones with an outline might help but two hours is a decent max. It's always nice to hear good things about LeBelle - it's been a blast working with him from day one.

    Questions for next time, pretty much all self-indulgent:
    • Strikeforce were without a doubt Saxoteur's best rivals. I feel like our feuds had positive moments, but you and I both know that a lot of our ideas were just kind of lost. During that whole time where we dominated the tag team division, do you have any major regrets and do you have any major good memories? Really if you could just talk about that whole period of time because it was special to a lot of us who were around for it and it was pretty wild that'd be nice.
    • You briefly touched on Adonis replacing LeBelle in that triple threat. What was the reaction in the back when we pitched it, and what did you guys think of the RP?
    • On that note, I have been trying to be in this fed as a manager for a long time and things either fell through or were outright rejected. How does it feel to know you made history by actually allowing part-timers and the like?
    • This is more of a statement but I'm always really glad you've been supportive of AES in general, even if you getting out in the HOC spot drastically cut down your time to be involved. Big Tex is doing well for himself and is very over, so your contributions will live on forever. [Saluting GIF]
    • Say nice things about me and my characters ;)
     
    #71
  22. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    I very much appreciate your positive praise of my work. You're far too kind.
     
    #72
  23. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
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    Doc, self indulgent? Never ;)

    I think talking about our time at the top of the tag division should be a good time, even if only three or four people still remember those days. Crazy to me that I'm considered one of the veterans of the fed with five years now under my belt.

    Thanks for taking care of Big Tex for me. I honestly can't think of anyone who could have ran with him other than yourself. I still pop onto AES from time to time to check it out. Always a good time.
     
    #73

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