WWE Region, Third Round, Ultimate Submission: (4) El Santo vs. (5) Mick Foley

[Tastycles]

Ah... what's the point? I'm not going to get passionate, there's no point, but here's a bit of information. If you haven't voted, read it, but don't try and argue with it, I'm not going to bother responding.

Here's some uncontextualised Santo facts I wrote 3 years ago:

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=51499

Here's Foley losing to a pretty generic submission, for your viewing pleasure.


"He was a jobber then!"

Yes, he was, but it still shows he's been booked to lose by submission before. I could easily have posted a video of him losing in this manner to Ken Shamrock when he was a main eventer, but I like these old time videos more. And also "he wouldn't lose to a camel clutch" behave. Do you think Shawn Michaels would lose to a leg drop if the Road Dogg was doing it? No. Moves have different "powers" based on who uses them.

Mick Foley's PPV win percentage: 32%.

Mick Foley's peak years were between the years 1998-99. During that time the list of people he beat by submission is a who's who of greatness: Val Venis, Mark Henry, Dustin Runnels, Billy Gunn. SHIT THE BED, THE MAN'S A MACHINE.

Mick Foley has put over Mil Mascaras before. I don't see why he wouldn't put Santo over too.

Mick Foley was made to "quit" several times by The Rock. Often he was duped, because Mankind the character is a fucking moron. "Duh, I've just been thrown off this cell, I'm going to climb it again, that's sure to end well". It's not hard to see how El Santo, who spent the majority of his career being a heel, and has made a career fighting Vampires etc. wouldn't be able to outwit him.

I don't know the answer to this, but it's worth thinking about. Has Foley ever beaten a main eventer with nothing but his hands?

 

[LigerBomb]

First off technicality time. This match has Mick Foley listed as the opponent not Mankind (v.1 or v.2), Cactus Jack, Dude Love, etc. And Mick Foley sucks.

Second, this whole Foley = indestructible thing has to stop. He gets hurt. He succumbs to pain. He stays down. He takes risks and usually fucks himself over in the process. He's a fucking human being not some amorphous blob devoid of internal vital organs and nerve endings that dissipates kinetic energy.

And as to the issue of pain/injury: Impact trauma is NOT THE SAME as a connective tissue dissolution. If the clutch—or any inescapable constant tension submission move—were applied, eventually the body would either break or go limp as a pure defense mechanism due to enormous nociceptor feedback. Either one is an advantage for the other guy. Foley passes out? Great, score. Foley tears a body part making it useless? Still a plus and a new area to exploit. This isn't absorbing one off high-impact shock from a fall due to extra adipose tissue (FAT) padding and a wide, flat ass to spread out the damage. These are ordinary—if not already highly compromised due to abnormal load-bearing—joints manipulated to fail through precise and highly concentrated compression/shearing force.

This is the viscous tissues of fascia, cartilage, tendons and ligaments being slowly strained and stretched over articulating joint fulcrums beyond their respective breaking points. This is meat rent from bone. No amount of eye of the tiger, crazy-ass mofo, mind over matter bullshit overrides that.

At best Foley's body produces a massive epinephrine dump that may get him out of trouble once or twice but its effects are temporary and when they're gone he's still grossly overweight with a laundry list of per-existing injuries, severely limited endurance and minimal strength.

 

[jtolliver23]

I have to go with Foley for this one reason: In his prime, he never gave up. I can not think of a single instance when he ever submitted in his prime. He would endure torture to ensure he never tapped out. I don't know much about Santo, but the mandible claw is pretty devastating. Foley gets my vote.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Foley is not going to tap, but Santo rarely ever lost. Foley, on the other hand, lost all the time, including matches where the stipulations favored him, like hardcore matches. Much of Foley's legacy is putting other guys over while doing crazy stupid stuff. Here, Santo would lock on the Camel Clutch at about the 20 minute mark of a 0-0 match, and Foley would pass out with about 10 seconds left, giving Santo the 1-0 victory.

Vote for El Santo.

 

[Mr. Book This Section]

Foley can do things that this Mexican cant. He can take tacks into his body, throughn of 20 foot cells, speared into tables that are on fire and more. Mick Foley can handle a few submission holds. Foley wins.

 

[The Brain]

I've avoided this one because I just don't know how to vote. Just about any other stipulation and I'd give it to Santo. Santo might even be able to get one submission out of Foley. I don't see him getting any more than that. Foley proved at Royal Rumble 1999 that he would not quit. I can't say I know enough about Santo to judge whether he is likely to submit but I know it would be damn near impossible to get Foley to. It doesn't look like my vote will make much difference anyway so I'll vote Foley.