WWE Region, Philadelphis Subregion,Second Round:(3)Undertaker vs.(14)Mitsuharu Misawa

[Big Sexy]

I have never claimed to know shit about Japanese wrestling so I'm not going to talk down a guy that I have only seen a couple of matches from. Good posters on this forum who watch and follow Japanese wrestling and know a lot more then me about the subject, say that Misawa was a big deal and great wrestler. I will not dispute any of that.

However, one thing I do know a lot about is wrestling in the US, especially in the major promotions. I also know that this tournament matchup is taking place in the WWE region and in a major US city. The Undertaker has been a dominant force in the WWE for over 22 years. This is a major tournament where every match is a big one and very few superstars can match the Undertaker's success in big time matches. The biggest wrestling event of the year is Wrestlemania and the Undertaker is 20-0 at the ppv. 17 of those 20 wins came against superstars that are in this tournament including three wins vs Triple H, two vs HBK, and victories over Edge, Batista, Flair, Orton, etc. Taker has defeated many of the biggest names this business has to offer at some of the biggest events of the year and he gets the victory here.

I'd also like to say that anyone bringing up drawing power in this match is fucking stupid. Comparing the drawing power of one guy in Japan vs another guy in the US makes little to no sense.

 

[Bernkastel]

Most wrestlers draw their best at Wrestlemania, not just The Undertaker. Even Austin isn't gonna draw as well at Mania as he did the rest of the year. It's true but that rule applies to everyone. Naturally you do your best drawing at the biggest show.

But Undertaker only draws a small fraction at those other events compared to what he draws at Maina, why? Because he's not a strong of a draw. Who do you think would draw more at Summerslam, Austin or Undertaker? Austin. Why? Because he was a strong draw all year... thus why WWE made him their top draw.

I have never one said that Undertaker is the SOLE reason for the attendance at Wrestlemania all I ever said is he plays a big part (and sometimes the biggest part) in those attendance numbers, which is true.

You certainly suggested it, making it seem as if the only reason fans attended Maina's 25 though 27 was to see Taker... and that's not true at all.

Yeah, and at WM 26 Undertaker and HBK weren't the only players, but had top billing.

And it was to highlight Michaels final match... not the Streak. That certainly does not suggest that fans paid to come see just Undertaker in that match, right?

Misawa has a shit ton of fans to work with and you can't compare Japanese Wrestling to American wrestling, it's completely different.

100,000 as region is not the same as 1,000,000 fans a city. Again, not his fault he doesn't live in a country as populated as the US. And while they are different every business speaks the language of money... and that's the way I've been comparing them.

Good mechanics can do a lot more in Japan than they ever would in America. Johnny Ace main evented sellout cards in Japan, in America he would be lucky to sell out a high school gym.

He also didn't work the camera except in the rarest of occasions before he became "Mr. Excitement." A better example would have been his older brother, Road Warrior Animal. You know the LOD right? They were massively popular everywhere they worked... Japan, US, Europe. So that's a moot point.

Wasn't Kobashi the best draw in Japan for a few years there? From what I'm reading he was the top draw in Japan in 04 and 05.

And by then he was working primarily in NOAH, not All Japan.

You certainly can do kayfabe as that's what wrestling is often built upon. One thing about tournaments like this is looking at a kayfabe perspective. It's just asinine to think that the guy who were the top draws always won because that NEVER happens. Taker beat everyone and can easily beat Misawa too.

How? We have two guys that never worked with each other before, are you just going to assume that Taker would win because he works for WWE? We was never their biggest draw, he was a draw for a long time. Misawa was All Japan's biggest draw at one point, and was also a draw for a long time.

See how that work? Guy who was top draw > guy who was never top draw.

Taker also beats top draws, a lot actually.

O rly? How many world championships does Undertaker have, 7? And how long did he hold those for, 445 days? That's not very long.

Misawa has often lost clean to guys who weren't top draws, so what makes him so invincible that he could automatically win against Taker, a guy who's clean losses as the deadman character you can count on 1 hand? Misawa isn't gonna cheat and the only top star that has beaten Taker clean while he was a face was Austin, that's it.

Austin was the top draw in the company at the time right? It's been established that Undertaker loses to the top stars. Whether or not Misawa was as big of a draw as Austin is irrelevant since we aren't comparing them... this is Undertaker vs Misawa, and Misawa was a top draw, and thus he'd beat Taker, who loses to top draws.

He didn't have to be their top draw to often beat the top draw and have a following that would make most top draws blush.

The only times when he was dominant as a champion was when he was a heel. The other times the company wasn't doing as well, and he'd always be the second biggest face in the company; whether it be post Attitude or pre Attitude era.

That was the entire point of them. They actually showed something and it's that Taker is a MUCH larger draw then Misawa.

A better quantitative draw, not a better quality draw. In a business sense, quality always beast quantity.

Your argument is "well they dont tour big cities" Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta pulled big numbers as did Inoki and Ridzokian so I don't want to here the Japan is smaller crap. If he was really that big of a star he would have came to America and been able to get over here like his counterpart Kenta Kobashi did.

That's for TV's show and PPV's, which All Japan under Misawa did the same thing [as been previously established], and he was a much bigger draw than Baba at the time. Compare the two promotions while the were touring and doing events, and they'd both draw 2000 - 3000 people.

You mean the matches against Samoa Joe in ROH? That's actually a step down as ROH wasn't making close to the amount of money that All Japan was in the mid to late 90's. Don't kid yourself.

I don't want to hear this, you know how All Japan worked every night fans came to see these 4 guys whether it be in a tag match or facing one another Misawa played no bigger part in it than anyone else and you know this.

Those were events, on the big shows Misawa got top billing. He held the Triple Crown more times than anyone else other than Kawada, but his combined days as champion were more than 10 times longer. Why do you thin that was? Because Baba knew that he could squeeze more money out of Misawa than anyone else.

Their were 4 guys at the front of AJPW

And Misawa was the most popular of the four; WWE had three to four big draws too, and was Taker ever considered the biggest draw at any time? No he wasn't.

Never once did I say Undertaker was a bigger draw than Austin. Undertaker's longevity made him one of the top draws of the 90's something that Misawa wasn't. I don't know why you keep deciding to bring in outside wrestlers into this argument. We're debating Taker vs Misawa not Austin vs Taker.

So you'd accept the fact that Austin would beat the Undertaker because he's the top draw. Why couldn't you accept the same for Misawa? Whether or not he's as big of a draw as Austin is irrelevant. What matters is that he was a top draw, and it's evidence when you look at his history, the way he was booked, the titles and how long he held them, and his position in the company after Baba's death.

What? Who defends the streak? Taker does, you know this just like the rest of the world does.

Taker hasn't been on the active roster for two years now, and he's wrestled two matches, both at Mania. So which is a bigger draw, Taker - who does nothing all year - or the Streak? That was my point. And the Streak itself is a WWWE creation, it was never Takers.

Hell Misawa started his own company why didn't he make it global? taker is not just a product of the WWE he spans generations as fans of all ages know who he is, it's his mystique that has put so many fans in awe over the years.

You really don't know much about business do you? Spread yourself too thin too quickly and you lose money. Even the WWE can only afford to tour globally a couple of times a year.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA Get the entire fuck out of here. It's Racist that i'm voting for the better wrestler?

You aren't voting for the better wrestler; you are voting for the one you like more.

I could see if it was Baba, Tsuruta, or maybe even Kobashi, these guys drew big numbers and got over in America.

Kobashi drew 500 people in a bingo hall; that's not impressive. Even Baba knew there wasn't money to be made touring globally. Arguably the only Japanese wrestler that did make a serious impact globally is Antonio Inoki. Even Rikidozan was limited, but only because at the time, pro wrestling was limited.

Am I racist because I acknowledged the fact that Taker was a better wrestler?

Racist? No, ignorant? yes. I've shown you why Misawa was better using history and logic, yet you cling to Meltzer and misinterpret his information.

If you went outside and asked someone who Mitsuharu Misawa was they would have no clue, If you went to Japan and asked people who the Undertaker was i guarantee more people would be able to answer that question.

Prime example of your ignorance here; you think WWE has that much of a presence in Japan? They've only toured there a few times over the past few years - and Undertaker wasn't even with them when they went last time. Your example would be wrong.

Misawa was not more relevant than Undertaker in no way shape of form. Taker is a global icon Misawa wasn't

You've got that backwards, junior. WWE is a global icon, Undertaker by his own name is just a Stateside wrestler.

 

[Bernkastel]

I'd also like to say that anyone bringing up drawing power in this match is fucking stupid. Comparing the drawing power of one guy in Japan vs another guy in the US makes little to no sense.

Then how else would you have compared them? How many 5 star matches from Meltzer they have, or how many moves they can do? You can't use kayfabe because they've never faced either other before... and both primarily work one country. The only feasible way you could compare them is use drawing power, popularity, and money. That's the language of all business.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

But Undertaker only draws a small fraction at those other events compared to what he draws at Maina, why? Because he's not a strong of a draw. Who do you think would draw more at Summerslam, Austin or Undertaker? Austin. Why? Because he was a strong draw all year... thus why WWE made him their top draw.

So does EVERYONE ELSE! Wrestlemania 17 did almost double the buyrates of any event WWE did the rest of the year. So they went from just over a million buys to about 560,000 buys, I would say that's a pretty significant drop. Good numbers regardless but any top draw over the last 20 years fell into the same category. You can't knock Taker for something that everyone else does.

You certainly suggested it, making it seem as if the only reason fans attended Maina's 25 though 27 was to see Taker... and that's not true at all.

Because I said his match was the top match on the card? How does that suggest he sold those events by himself? At WM26 I never denied Cena/Batista and Vince/Bret were draws but HBK/Taker was the bigger draw of said event. Yeah I really negated the rest of the card there.

And it was to highlight Michaels final match... not the Streak. That certainly does not suggest that fans paid to come see just Undertaker in that match, right?

Yet the year before it wasn't Michaels final match but it was easily the match that was most anticipated. Wrestlemania 27 his match was also the most anticipated. Once again not negating the rest of the card just simply pointing out it was the top match on the card.

100,000 as region is not the same as 1,000,000 fans a city. Again, not his fault he doesn't live in a country as populated as the US. And while they are different every business speaks the language of money... and that's the way I've been comparing them.

That's great but as Norcal put it this isn't the "top draw of all time" tournament.

He also didn't work the camera except in the rarest of occasions before he became "Mr. Excitement." A better example would have been his older brother, Road Warrior Animal. You know the LOD right? They were massively popular everywhere they worked... Japan, US, Europe. So that's a moot point.

Not really. It's easier to get over in Japan. Like some have said Scott Norton was a top wrestler in Japan. That guy's as exciting as watching paint dry. If you can get over in America 9 times out of 10 you will get over in Japan, the same can't be said the other way around though.

And by then he was working primarily in NOAH, not All Japan.

So?

How? We have two guys that never worked with each other before, are you just going to assume that Taker would win because he works for WWE? We was never their biggest draw, he was a draw for a long time. Misawa was All Japan's biggest draw at one point, and was also a draw for a long time.

This match isn't taking place in Japan, its taking place in Philly. You just like to pretend where a match takes place means nothing. Carlos Colon may have beaten Flair in Puerto Rico but he certainly isn't gonna do it in North Carolina. Same thing here, Misawa may have a chance in Japan, he doesn't in America. Location matters a lot, you just don't like to admit that.

See how that work? Guy who was top draw > guy who was never top draw.

Top guy in America beats top draw in Japan when the match is in AMERICA.

O rly? How many world championships does Undertaker have, 7? And how long did he hold those for, 445 days? That's not very long.

Yeah because titles mean SO MUCH to American wrestling in this day and age.

Austin was the top draw in the company at the time right? It's been established that Undertaker loses to the top stars. Whether or not Misawa was as big of a draw as Austin is irrelevant since we aren't comparing them... this is Undertaker vs Misawa, and Misawa was a top draw, and thus he'd beat Taker, who loses to top draws.

It's also been established that he also BEATS top stars and OFTEN. Couple that with the fact that being a top star in Japan doesn't mean being a top star in America and Taker's pretty much golden in this match. It's not a knock at what Misawa has done but he hasn't done it here. This match isn't taking place in Japan, get over it!

The only times when he was dominant as a champion was when he was a heel. The other times the company wasn't doing as well, and he'd always be the second biggest face in the company; whether it be post Attitude or pre Attitude era.

Once again second biggest face in America > Top face in Japan when the match is in AMERICA.

Then how else would you have compared them? How many 5 star matches from Meltzer they have, or how many moves they can do? You can't use kayfabe because they've never faced either other before... and both primarily work one country. The only feasible way you could compare them is use drawing power, popularity, and money. That's the language of all business.

They are fighting in America, Taker is one of the biggest stars in America over the last 20 years. You can easily argue with kayfabe and its a good and sound argument, you just don't like it because it goes against your basis of argument.

 

[Big Sexy]

Then how else would you have compared them? How many 5 star matches from Meltzer they have, or how many moves they can do? You can't use kayfabe because they've never faced either other before... and both primarily work one country. The only feasible way you could compare them is use drawing power, popularity, and money. That's the language of all business.

Seeing as how there are no guidelines in this tournament for voting criteria there are a number of things I could choose to decide by. However, drawing power in two different countries, with two different cultures, and two different levels of interest in the sport of pro wrestling is a laughable way to compare them. Achievements, longevity, big match success, level of opposition beaten, the location of the match, etc... Those are things that would be relevant to this discussion of who would win the match. Of course the posters who want to vote on things like who they like better or whose ring attire they prefer can't be told they are wrong if that is their sole basis for voting.

 

[Bernkastel]

Seeing as how there are no guidelines in this tournament for voting criteria there are a number of things I could choose to decide by. However, drawing power in two different countries, with two different cultures, and two different levels of interest in the sport of pro wrestling is a laughable way to compare them. Achievements, longevity, big match success, level of opposition beaten, the location of the match, etc... Those are things that would be relevant to this discussion of who would win the match. Of course the posters who want to vote on things like who they like better or whose ring attire they prefer can't be told they are wrong if that is their sole basis for voting.

Money is the same all around man, if it weren't it would be impossible to have international business, but we do so all the time. From a business standpoint it's not difficult to see that Misawa was the top quality draw in a major promotion, while Taker was a quantitative draw in a major promotion. Wouldn't you agree that a guy that was a top draw should trump a guy that wasn't a top draw? Quality > Quantity?

If so, that's why you should vote for Misawa.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Misawa is great and his matches are fantastic to watch but there is one factor that makes me struggle to put them over the top US stars and that is the lack of top line success that their top gaijins have ever managed in their home countries. If their top US guy could defeat their champions and yet never get above the midcard level on home soil, does it not reason that their champion wouldn't also have the ability to go over the top US guys?

While the Undertaker can be susceptible outside of WrestleMania, I still think he'd be too much for Misawa.

 

[Big Sexy]

Money is the same all around man, if it weren't it would be impossible to have international business, but we do so all the time. From a business standpoint it's not difficult to see that Misawa was the top quality draw in a major promotion, while Taker was a quantitative draw in a major promotion. Wouldn't you agree that a guy that was a top draw should trump a guy that wasn't a top draw? Quality > Quantity?

Actually money isn't the same all the way around which is why different countries use different currencies, but that's besides the point. Guys like Scott Norton and Tensai were popular in Japan but in the states they were low card guys that absolutely no one cared about. Popularity across different countries simply cannot be compared.

By the way, seeing as drawing power is the only thing you seem to be using to decide who you are voting for in this match, it's kind of hypocritical when you look at the other posts you have in this tournament and drawing power often isn't even brought up.

 

[Bernkastel]

Actually money isn't the same all the way around which is why different countries use different currencies, but that's besides the point. Guys like Scott Norton and Tensai were popular in Japan but in the states they were low card guys that absolutely no one cared about. Popularity across different countries simply cannot be compared.

By the way, seeing as drawing power is the only thing you seem to be using to decide who you are voting for in this match, it's kind of hypocritical when you look at the other posts you have in this tournament and drawing power often isn't even brought up.

But be stupid; they were never top draws of their promotions Japan or States, Misawa was. Money is transferable; that's how business is made. Different top promotions in different countries - like WCW and New Japan - did joint matches all the time. How do you think they decided on a winner? It wasn't always "home field boy gets the win." It was the man with more popularity and influence that won. If they were equals they drew.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Misawa is great and his matches are fantastic to watch but there is one factor that makes me struggle to put them over the top US stars and that is the lack of top line success that their top gaijins have ever managed in their home countries. If their top US guy could defeat their champions and yet never get above the midcard level on home soil, does it not reason that their champion wouldn't also have the ability to go over the top US guys?

While the Undertaker can be susceptible outside of WrestleMania, I still think he'd be too much for Misawa.

Misawa's first reign as AJPW Triple Crown Champion came when he beat Stan Hansen. He also beat Vader for the AJPW Triple Crown Championship.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Misawa's first reign as AJPW Triple Crown Champion came when he beat Stan Hansen. He also beat Vader for the AJPW Triple Crown Championship.

Not to start up an argument from two other contests but both Vader and Hansen have massive questions over their headline statuses (how 'great' the AWA Championship was at the time of Hansen's reign and a combination of what happened to Vader once Hogan and Flair returned to WCW and his subsequent tenure in the WWF during a weak time in their history). Plus he lost said title to Steve Williams whose biggest US push at the sterling hands of Bart Gunn.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Not to start up an argument from two other contests but both Vader and Hansen have massive questions over their headline statuses (how 'great' the AWA Championship was at the time of Hansen's reign

Obviously the AWA Title was, in your opinion, great enough to merit you supporting Rick Martel in the last round against Misawa:

Just to make it interesting, I'll throw this into the mix. Martel held the AWA World Heavyweight Title for 19 months and beat Jumbo Tsuruta for the belt, a guy who was regarded as the best Japanese wrestler of the 80s... or to put it another way - the Misawa of the 80s. Now, if this was in the land of the rising sun, I wouldn't think that this would be enough but given that it is in the States, I think that a prime Martel might be given the 'W' again here.

Stan Hansen took Martel's championship, the very championship that you said was sufficient enough for a victory over Misawa. How can you consider Martel's AWA title sufficient enough to beat Misawa but then discredit a Misawa victory over the man who took Martel's title from him?! You can't without totally defying logic.

and a combination of what happened to Vader once Hogan and Flair returned to WCW and his subsequent tenure in the WWF during a weak time in their history).

You're rewriting history here, man. Vader was fired from WCW because of an altercation with Paul Orndorff. Your implication that he left because Hogan and Flair pushed him out of the main event is totally off-basis, especially considering the fact that he fought Hogan in at least two main-event matches for the WCW Title. As for being in WWE during a weak time in their history, who cares? You claimed that Misawa was questionable as an opponent to The Undertaker because any gaijins/Americans he had fought didn't have much success in the US. That's flat-out wrong, and, if we take your Martel-Misawa post and this post I'm responding to together, than you've already acknowledged this is the truth in regards to Stan Hansen.

Plus he lost said title to Steve Williams whose biggest US push at the sterling hands of Bart Gunn.

Dude, where are you getting your basic wrestling facts? It's not from a previous knowledge of wrestling or from wikipedia, I know that for sure. I'm not even going to entertain this claim.

 

[deem]

Finally worked through the thread. I didn't know which way to vote and still don't. Both are in my top 10 of all time, I adore them both and have always hoped for a Misawa run at this thing. I think I'm definitely pulling for Mitsu, but I'm trying to remain unbiased and vote for who would win a kayfabe match/deserves to go through.

It really winds me up when people call Taker one of the best big men ever. He's one of the best wrestlers ever. In anything you can name, he's at the pinnacle (drawing could be the only argument, but clearly the guy is a huge draw regardless of numbers for house shows pfft). I understand the only quantifiable thing is drawing numbers, I get that. It's just not worth 9 pages of arguments about when there is more to it than that. That said, I think Misawa is a more talented wrestler. I absolutely love his work. It's also unfair to say that Undertaker is more charismatic/better at micwork when Misawa hasn't had a chance to showcase that, so I'll leave it at preferring Misawa as a wrestler.

I've been through the thread and planning to pull out a series of quotes - most of the stuff I agree/disagree with was touched on early and just expanded throughout the thread. This reply would be stupidly long if I tried to reply to any more than this.

Objectively speaking he's probably the 3rd or 4th biggest draw in the countries history. What would Undertaker be in the States? Probably not even in the top 15 if you factor in guys like Hogan, Thesz, etc etc.

When you consider global interest in both federations though, top 20 in North America is easily bigger than top three in Japan. I mean sure he's super over in his country. Undertaker is super over in every country that has a vague interest in wrestling.

The point of this tournament is to vote the bigger star over, the one that draws more

What on earth is the point of the tournament then? Might as well just google "biggest draws in wrestling" and check the chart to see who advances. I don't know who the biggest draw ever is (I guess Hogan but dno) - so he's won already? Way to remove any possible point from it. Same guy wins every year and there is zero debate in any round. Sounds great.

It wasn't uncommon for Taker to lose to the top draws of a major promotion; Misawa was the top draw of a major promotion. Explain to me how the Undertaker would beat him again?

Major promotion is one thing - you can't compare All Japan to WWF/WWE though on a global scale.

Yeah I don't give 2 shits about what Meltzer says. He's a great wrestler I'll give him that. He didn't have popularity like Stone Cold, if he did he would have been bigger than wrestling and more than just hardcore wrestling fans would know who he is in America. So nice try there.

Disagree strongly. There aren't enough gimmicks in Japanese wrestling to get over on the stage that Stone Cold did globally. That needs something that trascends wrestling into entertainment. Something theatrical and well scripted. Misawa's battle to become the Ace and finally going over Tsuruta is absolutely epic to be and fascinating to watch. However, I'm a smark who loves pyschology/continuation in wrestling. To become a global draw on an Austin level, you need something to inspire children to Stunner their brothers, to flip off their teachers. You need someone to make grown men feel they can stand up to their bosses, to have a pride in the working class and being able to do the f you want. You need more than just ring pyschology, you need a character and years of exposure. Considering Misawa didn't get a chance to any of this due to the customs of his region, he attained as much popularity as he could possibly of managed. If he was booked for a run in North America we would have a chance to see if he could make himself a global draw - as it is, he did as well as anyone could in becoming a megastar.

Misawa can't come over to America and draw but I bet you ANYTHING Undertaker could go into Japan and easily draw.

I agree with this. Undertaker would be over HUGE if he went to Japan. Just huge. Fuck, if Hansen can step into their upper echelons I actually think Calloway would be their #1 guy if he went there in his peak. Such a great worker, able to do the stiff striking they crave, willing to bump around. He'd be great.

Wrong. Being the top draw in a major promotion will always, always top being the 3rd or 4th biggest draws. I've shown why Misawa is better than the Undertaker, and why he should be voted over. This is not top draw vs top draw, this is top draw vs 3rd or 4th biggest draw.

Jesus christ really? I mean ok, it's hard to quantify what a major promotion is. Let's definitely say ECW was one though, for arguments sake. Their top draw in their early days was probably what, Shane Douglas? Maybe Sabu or Sandman? So that tops Undertaker too? Maybe you mean in the major promotion of a region. Burchill was pretty huge in the U.K for a while. Jody Fleisch>Undertaker. I KNOW New Japan is bigger than ECW, I'm just exaggerating the point. It's not all that ridiculous when you consider how much bigger WWF/E is to New Japan.




Anyway, ignoring all this "who is the bigger star" stuff that people seem to value so highly, I'm going back to who would win a kayfabe match. In Philly, in the WWE region, The Undertaker would. You can say he hasn't beaten anyone significant in his streak, it's irrelevant. He's constantly been booked as an incredibly tough guy to beat, probably top 5 in the company over his time (Hogan/Austin/Cena/Warrior jump out as the other four). Misawa dominated too, and I'm 100% he would be booked as a serious threat to The Undertaker here. I just don't see him emerging with the win, in North America, against an entirely unique part of this tournament when there are numerous other more historically important Japanese stars ready to advance deeper in it. There's nothing else like The Undertaker.

Brutal match, tons of bumping around from Taker, before catching Misawa in the Hell's Gates for the passout when the Flowsion had looked to put him away.

It's definitely with regret that I'm voting against Misawa. It feels right though.

Edit: and now I see how easily Undertaker is winning. Damn. I mean, if it's the right decision its the right decision, I woulda thrown a vote Misawa's way thought if I knew it wouldn't count.

And Echelon, incredible work btw. May seem like I'm underrating your effort/ability to argue a point, I'm totally not. My way of voting in these tournaments is just different to yours. Repped and hats off.

 

[Bernkastel]

When you consider global interest in both federations though, top 20 in North America is easily bigger than top three in Japan. I mean sure he's super over in his country. Undertaker is super over in every country that has a vague interest in wrestling.

That's only feasible in modern 2013 terms though... in 20 years ago terms that's not true in the slightest. Misawa never worked outside Japan, but Inoki and Rikidozan certainly did. And between them they have wins over a vast majority of the big names that the States and Mexico have produced since the 60's.

What on earth is the point of the tournament then? Might as well just google "biggest draws in wrestling" and check the chart to see who advances. I don't know who the biggest draw ever is (I guess Hogan but dno) - so he's won already? Way to remove any possible point from it. Same guy wins every year and there is zero debate in any round. Sounds great.

This tournament supposed to objectively crown "the greatest wrestler ever" and not "the most popular wrestler on Wrestlezone Forums." Being a draw, being popular, that's a big determining factor of the quality of a worker.

The subjective part of the tournament comes when we do the gimmick rounds, where we get ridiculous arguments like "Hogan can't climb a ladder."

Major promotion is one thing - you can't compare All Japan to WWF/WWE though on a global scale.

Your right, and I never tried to... in fact I've pointed out repeatedly that Misawa didn't have the fan pool that Undertaker did, which wasn't his fault. If you read my arguments I kept calling Misawa the top draw in a major promotion, which AJPW was in Japan, and Taker a supporting draw in a major promotion.

Disagree strongly. There aren't enough gimmicks in Japanese wrestling to get over on the stage that Stone Cold did globally. That needs something that trascends wrestling into entertainment.

What allot of people arguing Taker didn't realize, or brought up, was the fact that WWE did not have the global presence worldwide in the 90's like it does in 2013. When you say "Stone Cold was over globally" you really mean Stone Cold was over nationally. RAW wasn't available in 50 countries in 1998.

However...plenty of promotions did crossover shows with each other. WCW/New Japan and NWA/All Japan held joint shows often. The big stars in those companies all worked with each other, with varying level success.

I did point out that the US workers that were big that came to Japan Misawa beat, and he beat them often. That includes the likes of Vader, Hansen, and Brody.

I agree with this. Undertaker would be over HUGE if he went to Japan. Just huge. Fuck, if Hansen can step into their upper echelons I actually think Calloway would be their #1 guy if he went there in his peak.

Hogan went to Japan during and right after his Hulkamania prime, and while he never faced off with Misawa, he did face Inoki numerous times and do you know what happened? He lost way more times than he won.

Jesus christ really? I mean ok, it's hard to quantify what a major promotion is. Let's definitely say ECW was one though, for arguments sake. Their top draw in their early days was probably what, Shane Douglas? Maybe Sabu or Sandman? So that tops Undertaker too? Maybe you mean in the major promotion of a region. Burchill was pretty huge in the U.K for a while. Jody Fleisch>Undertaker. I KNOW New Japan is bigger than ECW, I'm just exaggerating the point. It's not all that ridiculous when you consider how much bigger WWF/E is to New Japan.

A major promotion is one that continuously turns a profit in an area with a large amount of people. Did All Japan do that? Yes they did. Just keep in mind...if you're trying to discredit All Japan for not being as big of a promotion as WWE, then you might as well discredit every other promotion that has ever existed.

And Echelon, incredible work btw. May seem like I'm underrating your effort/ability to argue a point, I'm totally not. My way of voting in these tournaments is just different to yours. Repped and hats off.

Thanks. It's appreciated.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Obviously the AWA Title was, in your opinion, great enough to merit you supporting Rick Martel in the last round against Misawa:

Erm... no, my point was on who Martel beat for said title and how comparable he was with Misawa. However, while I do compare the AWA to be the least of the three world title in the US at this period, I do still consider it to have been on a power with the Japanese World Titles.

Spoiler

Just to make it interesting, I'll throw this into the mix. Martel held the AWA World Heavyweight Title for 19 months and beat Jumbo Tsuruta for the belt, a guy who was regarded as the best Japanese wrestler of the 80s... or to put it another way - the Misawa of the 80s. Now, if this was in the land of the rising sun, I wouldn't think that this would be enough but given that it is in the States, I think that a prime Martel might be given the 'W' again here.

Stan Hansen took Martel's championship, the very championship that you said was sufficient enough for a victory over Misawa. How can you consider Martel's AWA title sufficient enough to beat Misawa but then discredit a Misawa victory over the man who took Martel's title from him?! You can't without totally defying logic.

Again, my point was on who Martel beat for the title and the AWA was at a much weaker juncture when Hansen won the title from Martel than when Martel won it from Tsuruta due to the explosion in the popularity of the WWF and the pilfering of top stars by Vince McMahon.

You're rewriting history here, man. Vader was fired from WCW because of an altercation with Paul Orndorff. Your implication that he left because Hogan and Flair pushed him out of the main event is totally off-basis, especially considering the fact that he fought Hogan in at least two main-event matches for the WCW Title. As for being in WWE during a weak time in their history, who cares? You claimed that Misawa was questionable as an opponent to The Undertaker because any gaijins/Americans he had fought didn't have much success in the US. That's flat-out wrong, and, if we take your Martel-Misawa post and this post I'm responding to together, than you've already acknowledged this is the truth in regards to Stan Hansen.

Huh? Where did I bring up why Vader left WCW? I was stating (correctly) that Vader's standing in the company dropped when the headliners came in. The reason I pointed out the strength of the WWF when he joined them is that he still wasn't regarded as being a big enough name to hold their World Title. The Vader that Misawa defeated was 8 months removed from losing to the then little known Edge on the ratings winner that was Heat... and he still dropped it back to him. What rewriting of history is involved here?

I stand by my claim that long standing top gaijins are well down the totem pole of influence in their own country.

Dude, where are you getting your basic wrestling facts? It's not from a previous knowledge of wrestling or from wikipedia, I know that for sure. I'm not even going to entertain this claim.

You're disputing what? That Steve Williams didn't defeat Misawa for the title...

[YOUTUBE]IEuMgAktZtg[/YOUTUBE]​

or that Williams was more than a midcarder in the US... nah, you couldn't be trying to dispute that!

Oh and for reference, I get my 'previous knowledge' from many sources. Trade magazines, (auto) biographies, youtube, wikipedia (once I cross reference the information) and any other source I can find due to having been a fan for over 30 years.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I'm going with Taker. Simply put, I like Taker FAR more than Misawa. I simply don't jizz myself whenever someone mentions his name. I'm not Dave Meltzer.

I couldn't care less about Misawa's status in Japan. Taker is someone against which the various "he's a god in Japan" arguments simply won't cut it. Misawa may be a god in Japan, but even gods can die.

 

[PsychoBlack]

Echelon it looks like you've lost the war in this one. You were an admirable opponent and maybe down the line we will be on the same side of this debate. Misawa was great and I enjoy a lot of his matches, however, few can handle the aura that the Undertaker brings and Misawa just aint one of them. I admire your strong opinion and never say die attitude about this match though and you will be repped for it.

 

[The Crock]

I'm going with Taker. Simply put, I like Taker FAR more than Misawa. I simply don't jizz myself whenever someone mentions his name. I'm not Dave Meltzer.

This sums it up fairly well. I just don't like Misawa enough to put him over Undertaker... and I don't even like Undertaker that much. In a tournament like this, I'd be hard-pressed to put anybody over Undertaker that isn't one of the greatest stars of all time (I'm talking people way above what Misawa is/was). I know this isn't WrestleMania either, but the streak keeps popping up in the back of my mind, too. Undertaker just doesn't lose big matches -- not prime Undertaker, at least.

Different strokes for different folks, I won't say anybody is wrong for liking Misawa more and voting for him, but I won't vote for him here. I can't overrate Misawa to the point where I'd put him over Undertaker, who is undeniably a bigger star than Misawa (Misawa may be a big deal in Japan, but he's not a world-wide star, unless you're talking about the small niche of fans that follow puro).

 

[The Brain]

Not that my vote means much by now but I'll surprise you guys and take Misawa. I don't want to sell Taker short but if it's not WrestleMania he often struggles against great wrestlers. He has plenty of wins against guys like Kamala, Giant Gonzalez, Kama, Mabel, Test, A Train, etc. He also has plenty of losses against guys like Bret Hart, Steve Austin, Mick Foley, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, etc. Misawa obviously falls into the second group and I think he would be able to score a win over Taker.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Not that my vote means much by now but I'll surprise you guys and take Misawa. I don't want to sell Taker short but if it's not WrestleMania he often struggles against great wrestlers. He has plenty of wins against guys like Kamala, Giant Gonzalez, Kama, Mabel, Test, A Train, etc. He also has plenty of losses against guys like Bret Hart, Steve Austin, Mick Foley, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, etc. Misawa obviously falls into the second group and I think he would be able to score a win over Taker.

'Taker also has plenty of wins against the guys in that second group as well, except for Lesnar. That's because Lesnar was what? Active for 2 years?

Also, the only two people in that second list to beat 'Taker clean are Austin and Lesnar. Angle pinned 'Taker clean at No Way Out '06 of course, but I'd hardly call that a decisive win.

Point is, the myth that 'Taker loses big matches outside of WrestleMania is ridiculous. As many times that he has lost in those matches he has also won. This is a tournament setting and I just don't think that there is any possible scenario that the Phenom would go out in the second round.

 

[The Brain]

Also, the only two people in that second list to beat 'Taker clean are Austin and Lesnar. Angle pinned 'Taker clean at No Way Out '06 of course, but I'd hardly call that a decisive win.

Angle pinned Taker completely clean. How in the world is that not a decisive win?

Point is, the myth that 'Taker loses big matches outside of WrestleMania is ridiculous. As many times that he has lost in those matches he has also won. This is a tournament setting and I just don't think that there is any possible scenario that the Phenom would go out in the second round.

So as many times as he has lost in those matches he has also won. Which means he has lost big matches outside of WrestleMania. Which means Taker losing big matches outside WrestleMania is not a myth. I'm not saying Taker wins only at WrestleMania, but he doesn't always win unless it's WrestleMania. Could Taker beat Misawa? Of course, but given his track record against the people I mentioned it's perfectly reasonable to think Misawa would beat Taker. It was a coin toss for me. This one is over anyway. Your guy won in a landslide. Congrats.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

This is a tournament setting and I just don't think that there is any possible scenario that the Phenom would go out in the second round.

And in the two tournaments I could find he was in he lost to Mabel in the second round of The King of the Ring and in the third round( although to be fair Undertaker had a bye in the first round so he lost his second match ) to The Rock at Survivor Series 98. Technically this is the round he should go out in.

Angle pinned Taker completely clean. How in the world is that not a decisive win?

Because it hurts his argument.

 

[ABMorales787]

Oh for Christ's sake. People talk about drawing power and totally ignore how once a year, Undertaker is the center of attention? During the biggest show in wrestling? Since when is Misawa the talk of the town?

 

[Bernkastel]

Oh for Christ's sake. People talk about drawing power and totally ignore how once a year, Undertaker is the center of attention? During the biggest show in wrestling? Since when is Misawa the talk of the town?

Is Undertaker really the center of that attention, or is the streak itself the center of that attention? Using Mania to justify Undertaker's ability as top draw is utterly sad when 1.) Everyone draws more at Mania because it's the biggest show of the year, and 2.) Undertaker isn't consistently the same draw all year now is he?