WWE Region, Philadelphis Subregion,Second Round:(3)Undertaker vs.(14)Mitsuharu Misawa

Discussion in 'WWE Region' started by klunderbunker, Mar 19, 2013.

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Who wins this match?

  1. Undertaker

  2. Mitsuharu Misawa

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    You have little to no critical thinking skills. Did you ever think to put two and two together instead of just "entertaining" Thriller? Thriller has factual evidence to back his claim, you have nothing (and you've used nothing substantive to back up your claims throughout this thread). Let me give you a hint (through a question) to come to the conclusion that everybody already has come to: What are the two most significant wrestling promotions ever to be based out of Philadelphia?

    Someone already called your claim into question and answered it well. I just saw it so I've edited this part out.

    :wtf::wtf::wtf:

    This is just flat-out wrong. What the fuck are you looking at statistics-wise? Either you're intentionally leaving facts out to bolster your claim or you're an idiot. I can tell from your posts that you're not an idiot so you've lost your credibility by failing to look at things objectively.

    I'm going to go and read your posts to see how shit your taste is in other things since you've just called Echelon's appreciation into question without so much as a reason to do so.

    No you don't.
     
    #51
  2. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    No, my argument is that All Japan accomplished more with less to work with.

    Obviously a good one.

    Er... no. All that proves is that WWE had a bigger pool of fans to draw from, and you can't fault All Japan for that. Even out the numbers and give All Japan the same pool, and they'd draw more.

    I already explained to you why he didn't, because there was more money to be made in Japan.

    :lmao:

    You yourself just demonstrated that All Japan under Misawa could draw the big numbers. And we haven't even factored in NOAH yet, so lets do that.

    http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=3260

    What's that? 62,000? With Misawa in the main event? And what was the best draw with Undertaker in the main event? 23,000. Yeah, you really proved Taker to be a better draw there.

    That's like asking why WWE doesn't do weekly live shows in Europe. Because there's no to be made stretching yourself thin.

    Not saying he would is total BS though, if workers like Rikidozan, Inoki, and Muta could make it in the States, Misawa would do fine. But we aren't discussing that... we're discussing who would win in a one off match.

    So your blaming Misawa for living in a country that doesn't have as many big cities or as many people in general as America? Don't be a jingoistic fuck.

    No it's not. Music is different from pro wrestling because they advertise different products, and aren't always out to make the most money. Pro wrestling companies are. And All Japan and NOAH both made lots of it. So what if Misawa worked in a country with a 1/4 of the people of the States; he made more money, and drew more fans, in two separate promotions than Taker did with one... and Misawa was just as relevant as a top draw than Taker was as "one of the top draws"

    It's not a hard decision. Misawa should win this.
     
    #52
  3. PsychoBlack

    PsychoBlack Damn it feels good to be a Taylor!!

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    ECW and WWWF. WWE has always sold more tickets than any other company in the city of Philadelphia making it a WWE stronghold since the days of Bruno Sammartino



    But I do though. Just because you work at McDonald's doesn't mean that the rest of the world holds their self to such low standards
     
    #53
  4. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    This is the only reasonable post that has been put up in favor of The Undertaker so far. I disagree with some points here but at least it's a disagreement that can only exist in speculation and never in fact (e.g., I don't think The Undertaker would beat Misawa in Japan but that's something we'll never know for sure).

    To Everyone Else Who Supports The Undertaker: I deeply love Mitsuharu Misawa as a wrestler but I'm not blind to the fact that The Undertaker is in many respects just as significant a professional wrestler. However, if you try to support The Undertaker by besmirching Misawa's legacy, I'm going to make you look like a fool. Furthermore, if you try to do so with drawing data, I'm just going to laugh at you since there's no untortured data without several glaring omissions to show that The Undertaker was a bigger draw than Misawa.
     
    #54
  5. LSN80

    LSN80 King Of The Ring

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    I'll be voting for Undertaker here, because his prime has been his entire career, and he's been unstoppable since he debuted. Most of his losses against big names were due to outside interference, cheating, or an injury hampering him. He he has clean wins every big name there is to offer. Misawa is the man, I love his body of work and I argued ferociously for him in the first round, but much of his success was in the tag division for years. Many of his World Championship wins came when he was the booker, which he wouldn't have the luxury of here.

    Undertaker burst onto the scene and after feuding with(and beating) the top stars in the company such as Ultimate Warrior, Randy Savage, and Sgt. Slaughter, he won the World Championship in his first try against the biggest draw anywhere, Hulk Hogan.

    Misawa, on the other hand, wasn't as successful in his first attempts. He couldn't beat Bret Hart, Stan Hansen, or Jumbo Tsuruta when he graduated to the heavyweight division after years in the lightweight one. Other then Tsuruta, these were men in his territory. Whose to say that a draw like Undertaker, certainly bigger then Hansen, and comparable to Hart in legacy, wouldn't do the same?

    Misawa deserves a better draw then this, he was Japan's John Cena in many ways. But Undertaker's career from when he burst onto the scene until he semi-retired was a fairly dominant one. A clean win over the Undertaker was rare, and all the five star matches from Dave Meltzer couldn't save Misawa from a Tombstone.
     
    #55
  6. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    Er... while it's true that Misawa was a tag team competitor for years, you might have him mixed up with Baba. It would have been impossible for him to have been a world champion while being a booker in All Japan, as Baba was the head booker until 1999. Misawa won that belt 5 times... and was never the booker.

    Misawa did the same; in fact, Baba endorsed Misawa as his successor, who took control of the company after his death.

    You mean as Tiger Mask 2? That wasn't his prime though.

    Hansen certainly wasn't a bigger draw than Misawa, he was more of a novelty like Taker in All Japan. Misawa defeated him for the Triple Crown twice, while Hansen didn't beat him once in such a setting. Misawa also had longer, and better quality reigns than anyone else? Why do you think that was? Because All Japan was able to squeeze more money out of him than the other stars.

    He never faced off with Bret... you're thinking of the original Tiger Mask.

    And like John Cena, Misawa was a better quality draw than Taker. He should get your vote here.

    But it happened; and who usually got them? The top draws. What was Misawa? A top draw. It's more than feasible to believe that he would beat Undertaker.

    It would behoove you to think again before you voted.
     
    #56
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  7. Brewski

    Brewski How Damn Good Am I?!

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    Well isn't this interesting? Two incredibly popular wrestling stars that are honestly a lot more even than everyone here is arguing for. Honestly, this match can go either way but i'm definitely siding with Echelon here(after fighting with him about Sid v. Liger last week) in that Misawa is the winner.

    Instead of going around and picking apart others arguments i'll just make some bullet points here that I think are important points based off others arguments.

    -Who the fuck cares who "drew more"? Honestly it's comparing apples to oranges. Comparing companies of drastically different sizes is just asinine especially when it's internationally. Here are really the only cross promotional comparisons that I feel are appropriate. WWF/WCW, NJPW/AJPW/NOAH, Smokey mountain/Stampede, AWA/USWA, and TNA/ECW. The last two sets I suppose could also be compared but be aware of huge differences in eras. Even still all these are fuzzy but it's just best not to compare at all. Comparing US stars to those in Japan is especially silly when you compare populations and each countries general affect on world culture. US outweighs Japan culturally but that doesn't mean it's better. Wrestling is huge and Japan and I would hypothesize theres more wrestling fans per-capita in Japan than here.

    -I think an intangible statistic I like to call "general popularity" is a better way of judging who is more known or well liked. Again, this is really subjective on region but if we speak in general terms I think we can all agree on that both Taker and Misawa are in the top five most popular American and Japanese wrestlers of all time respectively. This is something that changes person from person and for me I would consider Misawa always in the top 3 of Japanese wrestler, while Undertaker is more like 4 or 5.

    -Undertaker debuted in 91 and was booked as a monster. He was booked beating every jobber around through 1996. The problem is who he didn't really beat. Warrior, Hogan, Hart, Yoko, Mabel, Mankind, Vader, Hell, even Goldust in two Casket matches! Sure, some of those weren't clean losses and he split wins with some of them but throughout this whole time he really wasn't ever an elite player. He's got the win over Hogan on the record but he had the match lost until Flair interfered. Taker would go on to lose the title a week later back to Hogan. Really the biggest win Taker ever had was against Sid at mania 13 in 1997.

    -At this point Hogan was gone, Warrior was gone, Macho gone. Basically this was a big cluster fuck of a time where there was no clear flag bearer for the company and at the time Undertaker was a strong option. I think it's fair to say Taker's peak has epic longevity where he was a high carder, but the next few months of this title run are really the peak of his career. Wins against Mankind, Austin, Faarooq, and Vader had him cemented him as the top star in WWF for 6 months until SummerSlam 97. I can admit that was a shady loss for him but in my opinion he was never really the elite guy while the WWF peaked durring the "attitude era".

    -Now, obviously he would be Champion again and beat Austin and the Rock and Kane(over and over and over again) but was that REALLY Undertaker? Between 1998-2000 McMahon was the top heel in the company by FAR. Anybody could beat the top faces with McMahon's blessing. Undertaker was that chosen somebody for a while but really it could have ben anybody. I'm not taking away all credit from Taker, but he wasn't the star of the show by a mile.

    -I could see an argument for his 02 title run being prominent but just like in 1997 WWE was desperate for stars. Big wins against Austin, Hogan, and HHH I can admit, but this wasn't an incredible run and only lasted about 3 months. Everything after this really isn't even worth mentioning.

    -To me, one of the most important factors in deciding who was a bigger star for this tournament is how their championship runs are handled. Basically, how much trust the promotion has in it's champion

    -Misawa was AJPW champion for 2 years straight between 1992-1994 and then for another 3 years from 1995-1998. Theres some other shorter title runs after that but I won't spend as much time talking about but as champion Misawa consistently beat every single top star he faced. We're talking about huge names in Japan here including Stan Henson, Kawada, Steve Williams, Akira Taue, Kenta Kobashi, Jun Akiyama, and Vader. Henson, Williams, and Kobashi are some of the biggest stars ever in Japanese wrestling. Would I put them on the same level as an Austin or Rock? No. But they're not far off.

    -While it shouldn't affect this directly I think it's worth noting that after the 90s Misawa focused on tag team wrestling and had tremendous success. It's also important to note that Tag Team wrestling is huge in Japan while it's pretty lackluster in the U.S. I'm noting this because when he moved from Singles to tag it wasn't like moving to a lower level, it was starting a new era in his career.

    Enough about legacies. Here's some quick intangibles:

    -This isn't Wrestlemania so Taker's streak doesn't matter.

    -Philly is a popular wrestling spot in general. There is 0 advantage either way.

    -Undertaker's gimmick is a huge reason for his popularity. Not necessarily a mark against him but seeing as I don't think the biker gimmick will be fondly remembered by future generations means that he wouldn't be able to get as over on his own charisma. Just something to think about.

    -Others have noted that guys like Carlos Colon had great legacies in Puerto Rico but it doesn't matter on a world scale. This is true in that example because Puerto Rico isn't nearly as huge of a Wrestling market as Japan. When I think of true world class wrestling where it's very popular I think of the U.S.(I count southern canada here too), Mexico, and Japan. Again, populations and cultural impact make the big difference here. See Above.

    I think by now i've at the least made for an even playing field where I would like to look at the physical capabilities of each wrestler.

    I'm choosing the 1997 undertaker and 1995 Misawa. These years are within both wrestlers peaks and where I think it makes for the most even fight. You have a much faster Undertaker than 1999 and a stronger Misawa than 1993.

    -I think speed wise Misawa is always faster, Undertaker is likely far more powerful at this point. Technical agility will always go to Misawa (although I always did consider Taker underrated in this category) while the potential to pull off big impact moves goes to taker. Misawa is a better striker while the Deadman is probably more resilient (fucking urn...). The big difference for me here is considering who has better experience and is just smarter in figuring out how to beat their opponent. I really have to give that to Mitsuhara as he's been able to beat streaks of huge opponents. Taker while often a big star doesn't have that top of the world staying power and his significantly shorter reigns are proof of that.

    Mitsuhara Misawa's career achievements and wrestling skill assures me that he is the superior professional wrestler in this match.

    Honestly though, this is close. Closer than I even make it out to be. Both are really important figures in the history of pro wrestling and should be remembered that way. I just think Misawa has the edge.

    I'm never writing this much about wrestling ever again.
     
    #57
  8. Brewski

    Brewski How Damn Good Am I?!

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    I didn't really want to edit my previous post but I do wanna make one more note real quick:

    Somebody mentioned that a lot of undertaker's losses were due to outside interference but from 1998 on so were a lot of his wins.

    EDIT: One more thing. This is a fun tournament so really, vote for who you want. I'm confident Taker will win the vote because of his stateside popularity but I felt I needed to defend the green boots.
     
    #58
  9. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    Comparing the two as draws is the only way to be objective, because at the end of it all that's what pro wrestlers are supposed to do... draw money. And both Vince MacMahon and Baba were smart businessmen... Vince pushed Austin to the moon, because he saw his value as a superstar, much like Baba pushed Misawa.

    Perhaps... but when a company is clearly making more money than it was a decade, or half decade, before the superstar responsible should be commended.

    I've already explained before but Misawa had a great supporting cast during his prime, but at the end he was still top draw. Austin had a great supporting cast as well during the Attitude era, and Undertaker was apart of that cast. But Taker wasn't top draw.

    Misawa appreciates your vote.
     
    #59
  10. Papa Pillman

    Papa Pillman I've got more Ho's than Jim Duggan

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    Instead of recognizing that Taker was at no point the top guy in his promotion, let alone his country, while Misawa was clearly the top star in Japan for over a decade. Or recognizing that Misawa was more decorated than Taker. Instead the Taker supporters or out in force supporting that the sheer amount of people that Taker drew to shows(when he was rarely the reason anyone was buying a ticket anyway) in a country the size of the US must make him a better draw because those numbers are larger than the sold out crowds that Misawa drew on his tiny island homeland.

    Well I can be just as ridiculous. Taker was #21 on PWI's list of best singles wrestlers of the PWI era, while Misawa was #6; therefore, Misawa is clearly superior to Untertaker. The numbers have spoken. :rolleyes:

    Why look at things like impact and relevance relative to their home countries? Or relative to the world at large outside of Japan or North America? Or overall titles and/or length and importance of title reigns? That would be stupid, especially for Taker fans since Taker doesn't stack up to Misawa.

    Now in all seriousness this matchup happening now is a travesty of seeding because Misawa should by no measure be anywhere below the three or four line, especially if Taker is a three seed, because nothing about there resume's shows Taker to be superior in any fair or quantifiable way besides a racist and/or nationalist bias. Just because Misawa got robbed on his seed, he shouldn't get robbed in this matchup.

    People romanticize Taker because of the gimmick, and the childhood memories, and the Mania streak. He gets a boost because of it. But in the end Misawa is simply a better, more important, and more accomplished icon in the business.

    Vote Misawa.
     
    #60
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  11. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    And how many fans did Misawa have to draw from on a regular basis, and how many did Undertaker? If anything Undertaker drawing 10,000 in cities that had millions of people was much less impressive than Misawa selling out with 2500 with areas with less than a tenth of that.

    You've yet to give me a name from All Japan that was bigger than Misawa during his prime, you've yet to demonstrate New Japan's superiority when they worked the same areas... in fact I've done the opposite by showing that under Misawa All Japan became credible again.

    You believe Undertaker was WWE's top draw during the Attitude Era and the financial down period, and he was neither. All he had was longevity as a draw, but that doesn't measure up to actually being the top draw now does it?

    I get a hard on for Taker just like everyone else, but I don't let my markiness blind me to looking a wrestler objectively. And objectively Misawa is better, and he should win.
     
    #61
  12. PsychoBlack

    PsychoBlack Damn it feels good to be a Taylor!!

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    I'm done talking about this seeing as how you just don't seem to get it.

    I've done this about 6 times. Kobashi was equally as big as Misawa, as were Kawada, Taue, and Hansen. New Japan was superior because they filled bigger venues better than All Japan.

    My argument was NEVER that Taker was the top draw. The argument was that Taker was a more consistent draw over time than Misawa was, and I did a fine job of proving this.

    Objectively he wasn't. Taker still draws fans even until this very day. He shows up once a year and 100,000 people buy the most expensive show of the year just to see Taker. People who haven't watched wrestling since they were children still ask me about the Undertaker. Objectively Taker will go down in history as a way more important figure in the history of pro wrestling due to his fan appeal, natural charisma, drawing power and in ring ability. Misawa for all his hard work and being jerked off by David Meltzer is no Undertaker in any way shape of form no matter how you spin it. The only choice is to vote Taker.
     
    #62
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  13. HBsam31

    HBsam31 Totally Reeking of Awesomeness

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    I kinda got sold on the point of Taker still drawing today, and the longevity factor. The streak is pretty much the most anticipated match at Mania every year. I have to say when I saw the match i instinctively wanted to vote for Taker so I decided to check out the discussion first. After reading I am still voting for Undertaker.
     
    #63
  14. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    First thing I will say is I shouldn't have left out Misawas Noah figures, complete accidental lapse on my part.

    The thing is though every year Taker's streak is either the #1 or #2 drawing point of any wrestlemania and hands down THE main attraction of WM 25 - 27 and WM26 had Vince vs. Bret and Cena vs. Batista so if you are the main drawing factor with those 2 on the card you are a pretty big draw and yes 72, 000 is more than 62, 000 so give me a break his biggest draw was 24, 0000 people because that's flat out wrong. I think both guys did a lot as draws because they did. Throughout 20 years Taker drew TONS of money and was a main selling point for WWE qlmost that entire run. As I said before if Taker has to be on tour for a lot of tours to take place he's obviously a worldwide draw.

    Now from a kayfabe argument which is my initial argument is he's always been booked as unstoppable, very few times as the deadman has he lost clean and the only face I remember doing it is Austin, Misawa ain't Austin in the draw and popularity department. So Taker has beaten all big names he has faced including bigger draws than Misawa, he has a phenomenal record against top faces not to mention his clean losses as the deadman character can be counted on 1 hand. Its not hard to see Taker can win this. No t saying Misawa can't win but if I was betting I would go with Taker.

    He drew plenty, is the most memorable gimmick possibly ever and is more dependable in big match situations then Hornswoggle is dependable in annoying the audience.
     
    #64
  15. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    The myth of Undertaker being a big draw is not one I subscribe to, but the list you've posted clearly contains Japanese wrestlers, and while Undertaker may not feature annually, he features far more often than Misawa who has one 8th place and that's it.

    I'm going to hold out on this one, because I'm a bit tired of Undertaker's longevity meaning that he gets a free pass to the semi finals, so I could definitely be convinced for Misawa, but as it is, Taker is a bigger draw and the match is in a friendlier market for him. 55% on Undertaker.
     
    #65
  16. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Beaten and lost too, 6 of 1 half a dozen of the other. If Misawa is a top guy Taker has just as much if not more chance of losing this one than winning it. If you've actually done your history you'll know that anyway.

    All guys that have smashed him enough times in return. Taker's taken the belt off Austin and Hogan it has to be said, those title reigns were also laughably short before he dropped the belt right back to the big stars, the actual guys who make money. He is not an unstoppable force and anyone with an ounce of wrestling pedigree has more than a fair chance of beating him.

    Oh yeah Undertaker and Bret Hart, both known for being HUGE draws that scared the shit out of WCW and the NWO right? If Hart and Taker is all a company has, I feel sorry for that company.

    Bollocks, bollocks, bollocks. Side show attraction, a guy that compliments the real stars and money makers. A glorified Kane.

    What I said above. Side attraction, worked with the money makers of the industry.

    Get out.

    Never beat Warrior, title reign against Hogan was laughably short, dropped the belt right back to him, dominated by Stone Cold and The Rock during the attitude era.

    How many times did Taker lose to Hart? Try again.

    Unless its at Mania a clean win for Undertaker is just as rare, 0-3 against Michaels until Mania, 0-3 against Lesnar, never beat Warrior, never scored a convincing win against Hogan.

    Side show attraction. Over-rated as fuck.

    WrestleMania will still draw without the streak. I stake my fucking life on it.

    Not voting because I dont know fuck all about Misawa and cant be bothered to read up and pretend to know what I am talking about, but some of these Taker arguments are pretty laughable. Not the main man because he's the new Andre? Lolololololololol, if people wanted to see Undertaker as champ he'd be the most decorated World Champion of all time at this point.
     
    #66
  17. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Wrestlemania always draws, that's not the point but Wrestlemania is where the biggest money matches and storylines take place and it's no coincidence that The Undertaker's streak is one of the selling points of every wrestlemania because its a top storyline. It's often the most anticipated match, the match the most people want to see and is often the top match going into their biggest event of the year. If he didn't draw why is he either in the #1 or #2 match of Wrestlemania every year since 2007? Probably because the streak sells itself.

    Also being champ is something you do for guys that need to be champ and The Undertaker simply never needed to be champ to be considered popular. Some of the top draws and very best in wrestling history weren't the top dog but it doesn't take away from the business they did. Piper never won a title but was a draw, same with Bruiser Brody, same with Abdullah the Butcher, same with Andre the Giant. Just because you aren't the top guy and the face of the company doesn't mean you don't draw and Undertaker DID in fact draw, a lot actually.

    The Undertaker was a special attraction, when you are an attraction it means you don't NEED the belt or to be the top guy to sell, that's what the Undertaker was, a special attraction. You don't build your company around the special attraction but it doesn't take away that it means a hell of a lot. Undertaker over 20 years took more time off than anyone I can recall so of course they aren't gonna build the company around him or make him the #1 guy, it simply isn't needed.
     
    #67
  18. Mighty NorCal

    Mighty NorCal SHALL WE BEGIN?

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    What the fuck is this the "WZ greatest drawing wrestler of all time" tournament? Niggling arguments about who and who is not a draw.

    All you need to do is ponder this. How many Japanese know the Undertaker? HOW MANY FUCKING AMERICANS KNOW MISAWA?

    Thats right, fuck off.

    I cant wait for being regaled with how some guy was the top draw in the country of fucking Cambodia for ten years, so he should beat the Undertaker.

    People lose their goddamn minds in this tournament.
     
    #68
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  19. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    You're done talking because I've proven your arguments are stupid, and are based on nothing but a list measuring quantity, not quality.

    Bullshit Kobashi was, he wasn't pushed in the main event in All Japan as Kobashi was, and his title reigns were far shorter... meaning he wasn't as marketable. You might be able to make the Kobashi > Misawa argument in NOAH, especially after 2005, but not in All Japan. Kawada is the only that's a maybe... but then again who became president after Baba's death? Misawa. And why? Because of his influence and popularity. Besides, Kawada was the only one of the 4 Pillars not to go to NOAH, and did his star power make a difference for All Japan? Nope.

    New and All Japan worked the same venues, and though one company did traditionally did better in one area than another, did All Japan not begin to match New Japan's numbers from when they were doing better a decade before? Because it sure looks like they did. And who was at the forefront of the cast of All Japan? Misawa.

    You told numerous times that Undertaker was a bigger draw than Austin, and I called you out on it. A consistent draw doesn't equal a better draw. And even that claim is a bit far-fetched when you consider that both men argueably became really popular in the mid 90's... Misawa held his relevance as a consistent main eventer for 10 years. Undertaker? A little longer. The difference was that Misawa was the #1 guy for a while, Undertaker never was.

    If you are referring to Maina, I've argued that the Streak has become so enigmatic that fans want to see it defended more than they want to see Taker perform. Don't agree with that? I've yet to hear many complaints about this years match with Punk potentially being far worse than last years match because of Taker's ailing health.

    That's because of the fact that Taker was a product of the WWE machine... the largest pro wrestling company in the world and the only "global" one.

    So Japanese wrestlers and their contributions are now not as important as those from the WWE? If you were going to be racist and bigoted you should have just saved yourself and said, "I'm voting for Taker because he's Taker."

    Misawa is better than Undertaker, why? Because he was more relevant as the top star of a major company, while Undertaker was just a supporting character. Don't vote for Taker just because he's a product of the WWE machine, and recognize the contributions of other wrestling greats.

    Vote Misawa!

    At that point I'd say the Streak was completely self sustaining, and was a draw on it's own. Looking at Takers numbers from other major PPV's across the years he never draws as well as he does at Maina.

    So you're saying that the Undertaker vs HHH is the sole reason for those attendance records? Don't be ******ed. The fans didn't go into that PPV with the notion that Undertaker's match might have been the best, they were also there to see the likes of Edge, Cena, Orton, and Punk. He didn't receive top billing on any of those PPV's, and wasn't the main attraction.

    When NOAH drew 62,000 Misawa wasn't the only player on the card, but he had top billing.

    But Misawa drew more with far less to work with.

    He was a selling point, not the main selling point. Comparing his role in WWE to someone of All Japan, Undtertaker would be Kobashi or Kawada.

    You can't compare these two in kayfabe because they never worked together. I could easily argue that Taker lost to the top draws like Austin, Misawa was the top draw of his promotion, and would beat Taker, who wasn't the top draw of his.

    Were they bigger? Maybe, maybe not, but that's not the point. The point is that Taker loses to the top draws, and that's what Misawa was.

    Undertaker drew vicariously through WWE, and was never their top draw. That wouldn't, and shouldn't, put him over someone that was... and more many years.... created his own company and gained such a following that he started putting his old company into financial ruin.

    It's not hard to pick a winner here, and that's Misawa.
     
    #69
  20. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
    E-Fed Mod

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    Do you have a better way to compare the two? No? Then let's stick to my criteria.

    So it's Misawa fault for working in a country with less of a population than the United States? Oh, I'm fucking sorry he wasn't Chinese then.

    You'd have a point... if Taker was the top draw in the States, but he wasn't even close. So why should he win this match? Cuz we works for WWE?

    Fucking hilarious. Don't be a tool; vote Misawa.
     
    #70
  21. Thriller Ant

    Thriller Ant Beep Bop Boop

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    So he draws one night a year, at a show that most wrestling fans and many non-wrestling fans buy no matter what? Be careful; you don't want to speak too highly of him :rolleyes:
     
    #71
  22. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Most wrestlers draw their best at Wrestlemania, not just The Undertaker. Even Austin isn't gonna draw as well at Mania as he did the rest of the year. It's true but that rule applies to everyone. Naturally you do your best drawing at the biggest show.

    I have never one said that Undertaker is the SOLE reason for the attendance at Wrestlemania all I ever said is he plays a big part (and sometimes the biggest part) in those attendance numbers, which is true.

    Yeah, and at WM 26 Undertaker and HBK weren't the only players, but had top billing.

    Misawa has a shit ton of fans to work with and you can't compare Japanese Wrestling to American wrestling, it's completely different. Good mechanics can do a lot more in Japan than they ever would in America. Johnny Ace main evented sellout cards in Japan, in America he would be lucky to sell out a high school gym.

    Wasn't Kobashi the best draw in Japan for a few years there? From what I'm reading he was the top draw in Japan in 04 and 05.


    You certainly can do kayfabe as that's what wrestling is often built upon. One thing about tournaments like this is looking at a kayfabe perspective. It's just asinine to think that the guy who were the top draws always won because that NEVER happens. Taker beat everyone and can easily beat Misawa too.

    Taker also beats top draws, a lot actually. Misawa has often lost clean to guys who weren't top draws, so what makes him so invincible that he could automatically win against Taker, a guy who's clean losses as the deadman character you can count on 1 hand? Misawa isn't gonna cheat and the only top star that has beaten Taker clean while he was a face was Austin, that's it. Everyone else needs some sort of gimmick or interference to beat Taker clean. So let me ask you, is Misawa the type that would resort to cheating to beat Taker?

    He didn't have to be their top draw to often beat the top draw and have a following that would make most top draws blush.
     
    #72
  23. PsychoBlack

    PsychoBlack Damn it feels good to be a Taylor!!

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    #73
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  24. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    There's one point here that none of The Undertaker's proponents have fully addressed but that greatly hurts his case: his card cycling. Sure, by alternating time between the mid-carrd and main-event The Undertaker has been able to maintain a relevancy that few others have, but Misawa maintained his main-event status for close to EIGHTEEN YEARS without even the slightest hint of a loss in popularity. Who's to say Misawa doesn't get The Undertaker at a low-point in his cycle? Of course you could argue that The Undertaker's prime periods feature him in nothing but title and main-event matches, but those periods are so short in duration that you run into another problem: Misawa's lengthy and dominant title runs.

    Like Tasty, I'm at 55%, but that's towards Misawa. I'm going to go and watch some 'Taker and Misawa matches right now. Also, remember this: bringing in match evidence ALWAYS pays off.
     
    #74
  25. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I don't look at this tournament from a casual professional wrestling fan's perspective but from an at least slightly informed professional wrestling fan's perspective. To me a slightly informed professional wrestling fan would read Professional Wrestling Illustrated on a regular basis, or at least look at its rankings of the best professional wrestlers in the world. If you subscribe to this perspective then Misawa is a very significant figure. And before you bash such a perspective keep in mind that, under it, Hogan wins this tournament every year.
     
    #75

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