WWE Region, Philadelphis Subregion,Second Round:(3)Undertaker vs.(14)Mitsuharu Misawa

[klunderbunker]

This is a second round match in the WWE Region, Philadelphia Subregion. It is a standard one on one match. It will be held at Wells Fargo Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Assume one week has passed since the first round match.

#3. Undertaker

Vs.

#14. Mitsuharu Misawa

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Sorry Emerald boy you are going down to the Deadman.

Another very close matchup here as what Misawa did in Japan is legendary and of course he could take the Undertaker but I don't see it happening. Location favors Undertaker very well here not to mention Misawa was a fan favorite. On big stages (not just Wrestlemania) The Undertaker has taken out some of the biggest faces ever. He's taken down Hogan, Austin and The Rock (see not 1 Mania match mentioned yet) and has this unstoppable aura around him. In a lot of ways Undertaker is the second coming of Andre which is the ultimate compliment to the guy.

But all in all for me it comes down to this. We have the best WWE created superstar of all time vs. one of the best in Japan but the match is in WWE's backyard. Even though this match is in Philly I feel Undertaker is a big enough name to take down Misawa.

Undertaker wins.

 

[Bernkastel]

I know half of everyone here is leaning Undertaker because he's Undetaker, and Misawa is likely someone nobody from Japan - which might as well be it's own planet. Well to that I say, don't be stupid and be objective. How do we compare these two? Is it their list of classic matches, the Streak vs the hundreds of times Misawa has made Meltzer cum his pants? Be sensible... at least Misawa has wins over the biggest names of his time, where as the Streak doesn't have any of the Big 3 of WWE [Austin, Rock, Cena] all of whom were active during Undy's career.

All Japan wasn't putting up the kind of numbers the WWE had 15 years ago, but they were working prefectures and wards of Tokyo that had a tenth or less of the population of a city like Chicago, or Philly, or Dallas... and they'd still sell out. 2500 people in an arena that seats 1100 is a huge deal. When they'd work a major event in the Budokan in the heart of Tokyo they'd put up comparable numbers to a major 1998-1999 WWE PPV. Misawa was the top dog, the promotions biggest star, Giant Baba's handpicked successor, for years. Whenever Undertaker was champion it was on the B show, because he wasn't as big of a draw as Cena - let alone Austin or Rock.

That's what it comes down to... money, and Misawa drew more at an objective level than Taker did. I can't remember Undertaker ever receiving top billing whenever one of the Big 3 were on the card, where as Misawa was always billed as the best the promotion had to offer. The biggest star of a major promotion versus the second, third, or fourth biggest star of a major promotion... hmm, which to choose.

The answer isn't hard - vote Misawa, because he's objectively the better wrestler/entertainer/performer than the Undertaker.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I have to admit that I'm not to familiar with Mitsuharu Misawa. So I had to do my research and apparently, Misawa was a huge deal in Japan. Hell, I believe he was the best at one point in time that NJPW had to offer. Unfortunately, though, the Japanese star is going up against the Phenom; a performer who has made a career of defeating the best performers out there and the match takes place in America. 'Taker has beaten just about every major North American wrestling star there is over the past 23 years or so. I think that this match would be no different. 'Taker definitely has the pedigree to take down Misawa; who, from what I've read, is one of Japan's absolutely best performers ever. 'Taker goes over here.

 

[PsychoBlack]

Misawa is one of the few Japanese stars that i love to watch. However, The Undertaker is The Undertaker. He's made a name for his self beating the biggest stars of multiple Generations, Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena, HHH, Batista, Orton the list just goes on. With this match being in Philly, a WWE stronghold any promoter in his right mind would book the Deadman to come out on top in this epic encounter.

 

[Thriller Ant]

Misawa is one of the few Japanese stars that i love to watch. However, The Undertaker is The Undertaker. He's made a name for his self beating the biggest stars of multiple Generations, Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena, HHH, Batista, Orton the list just goes on. With this match being in Philly, a WWE stronghold any promoter in his right mind would book the Deadman to come out on top in this epic encounter.

Philly isn't a WWE stronghold as much as it is a smark stronghold. Smarks, they love their Japanese wrestling and Misawa is one of the gods of Japanese wrestling. Be careful when you try and use the location in your favor, because it just might backfire.

 

[Bernkastel]

Sorry Emerald boy you are going down to the Deadman.

Another very close matchup here as what Misawa did in Japan is legendary and of course he could take the Undertaker but I don't see it happening.

How is this a close matchup? Undertaker was never billed as the top star of WWE - he was always playing second fiddle to Austin, Rock, or Cena. His world titles after his reign as undisputed champion were all on the B show, because he didn't have the star power to carry the WWE as it's top performer. Misawa did, and he carried All Japan as it's best for nearly a decade.

A decade as the top star > barely ever the top star at all.

Location favors Undertaker very well here not to mention Misawa was a fan favorite.

Why should location matter at all? It's not objectively fair to give either the home field advantage... especially considering that Misawa never worked outside Japan, and taker never worked with All Japan or NOAH.

On big stages (not just Wrestlemania) The Undertaker has taken out some of the biggest faces ever.

Except he's never beaten any of those top 3 at Mania. I'd take 1 win over Austin in such a setting than 3 over HHH.

He's taken down Hogan, Austin and The Rock (see not 1 Mania match mentioned yet) and has this unstoppable aura around him.

But he's also lost plenty of times to be stars that were considered the top draw. Why would that be any different with Misawa?

In a lot of ways Undertaker is the second coming of Andre which is the ultimate compliment to the guy.

And Misawa had the in ring work like a Shawn Michaels, the popularity like a Stone Cold, and the presence of... you guessed it... like an Undertaker.

But all in all for me it comes down to this. We have the best WWE created superstar of all time vs. one of the best in Japan but the match is in WWE's backyard. Even though this match is in Philly I feel Undertaker is a big enough name to take down Misawa.

So basically you're voting Undy because you know nothing about Misawa. And what we have is the best superstar a major promotion like All Japan had for nearly a decade, versus a guy that always a great novelty but never the top star.

Simple decision... vote Misawa.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Be sensible... at least Misawa has wins over the biggest names of his time, where as the Streak doesn't have any of the Big 3 of WWE [Austin, Rock, Cena] all of whom were active during Undy's career.

So are we just looking at 'Taker's Streak or his entire career? Because, while he may not have wins over Austin, Rock, or Cena at 'Mania, he's beaten all 3 of them on more than one occasion. You can also add Hogan to that list of biggest and best that 'Taker has beaten on more than one occasion.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Undertaker wasn't a draw? In the words of South Park "Are you high or just incredibly stupid?".

Don't think for a second because The Undertaker wasn't the face of the company he wasn't a draw. Undertaker wasn't ever supposed to be the face of the WWE he was supposed to be the special attraction of WWE, like I said in my previous post he was basically Andre of the new generation. Andre wasn't the face of any promotion either but do you really think he didn't draw? During the time where Bret Hart was champion in order for them to travel worldwide there were 2 guys that had to be on the tour: Bret Hart and The Undertaker, as in if The Undertaker WASN'T on the tour then they would pull out. So how can he not be a draw if shows and tours are willing to pull out if he's not on the card?

Undertaker main evented against every big star that the WWE ever had and the only one I don't recall him beating was John Cena and they wouldn't even do a clean finish for Cena in that match. So Taker can beat Hogan, Rock, Austin, Batista, Bret Hart, Edge, Shawn Michaels, Diesel and almost every other big star WWE ever had but not Misawa? Really? How does that make sense? Where's the logic in that thought process?

I'm not against Misawa winning or anything but not too many people beat Undertaker in WWE's backyard. All in all Misawa is a foreign entity to your average American audience. You think most of American wrestling fans have the faintest clue of who Misawa is?

Is Misawa a better in ring performer? Probably but just because he was the top guy in Japan doesn't mean he wins in America. Hell I wouldn't be to confident in his beating Taker in Japan let alone America.

 

[Bernkastel]

I have to admit that I'm not to familiar with Mitsuharu Misawa. So I had to do my research and apparently, Misawa was a huge deal in Japan.

Objectively speaking he's probably the 3rd or 4th biggest draw in the countries history. What would Undertaker be in the States? Probably not even in the top 15 if you factor in guys like Hogan, Thesz, etc etc.

Hell, I believe he was the best at one point in time that NJPW had to offer.

It was All Japan - New Japan was Inoki territory. And Misawa was outdrawing them, and they had guys like Muta and Riki Choshu.

Unfortunately, though, the Japanese star is going up against the Phenom and the match takes place in America.

So you just automatically give the win to Taker even though Misawa never worked in the States? We have no idea how he'd be booked. Inoki was booked strong when he worked the States, as was Rikidozan. This is why we use a neutral setting.

'Taker has beaten just about every major North American wrestling star there is over the past 23 years or so. I think that this match would be no different. 'Taker definitely has the pedigree to take down Misawa; who, from what I've read, is one of Japan's absolutely best performers ever. 'Taker goes over here.

And Misawa has beaten every Japanese star worth two fucks in his country. Comparing matches to matches isn't going to work here... what will is money, and Misawa drew more than taker for a hell of a lot longer.

Vote Misawa, the objectively bigger star.

 

[PsychoBlack]

Philly isn't a WWE stronghold as much as it is a smark stronghold. Smarks, they love their Japanese wrestling and Misawa is one of the gods of Japanese wrestling. Be careful when you try and use the location in your favor, because it just might backfire.

Philly is without a doubt a WWE stronghold, but lets say its not just to entertain you here.

OK so Philadelphia is a smark stronghold sure a small percentage of Smarks love Puro. You know what an even larger percentage of Smarks love? The Undertaker. Take a look around these forumsand you'll see a large number of the posters here have a deep admiration for the Undertaker. Most if not all of us who post here or even know what a smark is happens to be a smark whether we like it or not. So the smark vote here goes to Undertaker as well.

 

[Bernkastel]

Undertaker wasn't a draw? In the words of South Park "Are you high or just incredibly stupid?".

Was he ever a top draw? No. You never put him on the level of Austin, Rock, Cena, or Hogan. To do so would be absurd. Misawa was the top draw on a major promotion for a almost a decade. He wasn't a glorified novelty act like Taker.

Don't think for a second because The Undertaker wasn't the face of the company he wasn't a draw.

I never said he wasn't - I said he wasn't as big of a draw as the face of the company.

Undertaker wasn't ever supposed to be the face of the WWE he was supposed to be the special attraction of WWE, like I said in my previous post he was basically Andre of the new generation.

And was Andre ever as big of a draw as guys like Hogan? Nope. This point is only a detriment to your argument.

Andre wasn't the face of any promotion either but do you really think he didn't draw?

Do you think Andre was ever a top draw? Even in Japan Andre was a big draw, but even then he'd be jobbing to the big stars... he lost to Giant Baba before, and Misawa eclipsed his star power.

During the time where Bret Hart was champion in order for them to travel worldwide there were 2 guys that had to be on the tour: Bret Hart and The Undertaker, as in if The Undertaker WASN'T on the tour then they would pull out. So how can he not be a draw if shows and tours are willing to pull out if he's not on the card?

So you're using WWE's worst financial period to try and justify why Undertaker was a better draw than Misawa... wait a second here...



All Japan sold out shows everywhere they went with Misawa as their champion; they were overtaking New Japan as the best wrestling promotion in the country during those years.

Undertaker main evented against every big star that the WWE ever had and the only one I don't recall him beating was John Cena and they wouldn't even do a clean finish for Cena in that match.

The point of this tournament is to vote the bigger star over, the one that draws more, and that's Misawa.

So Taker can beat Hogan, Rock, Austin, Batista, Bret Hart, Edge, Shawn Michaels, Diesel and almost every other big star WWE ever had but not Misawa? Really? How does that make sense? Where's the logic in that thought process?

When was the Undertakers prime? In the late 2000's when he was arguably the 2nd biggest star [or 3rd depending on where you rated Batista] but the WWE was only bringin in a fraction of the revenue that they used too - and much less than All Japan in the early 90's. Or is late 90's Undertaker's prime - where he was ALWAYS second fiddle to Austin or Rock?

I'm not against Misawa winning or anything but not too many people beat Undertaker in WWE's backyard.

It wasn't uncommon for Taker to lose to the top draws of a major promotion; Misawa was the top draw of a major promotion. Explain to me how the Undertaker would beat him again?

All in all Misawa is a foreign entity to your average American audience. You think most of American wrestling fans have the faintest clue of who Misawa is?

No, because he never worked in America. So how would you judging this match based on that be fair?

Is Misawa a better in ring performer? Probably but just because he was the top guy in Japan doesn't mean he wins in America. Hell I wouldn't be to confident in his beating Taker in Japan let alone America.

Misawa is objectively a better draw than Taker, and since everything else about them both in comparison is subjective that such be the deciding factor in Misawa's favor.

You wouldn't vote Undertaker over Rock, Cena, or Austin in this tournament - the top draws of WWE? Why would you vote him over Misawa - the top draw of All Japan?

 

[Poop Master Flex]

How is this a close matchup? Undertaker was never billed as the top star of WWE - he was always playing second fiddle to Austin, Rock, or Cena. His world titles after his reign as undisputed champion were all on the B show, because he didn't have the star power to carry the WWE as it's top performer. Misawa did, and he carried All Japan as it's best for nearly a decade.

Yet he was often booked over all of them. But yeah he was totally playing second fiddle to all those guys. Undertaker certainly didn't main event over Cena at their biggest event over the year. Oh wait yeah he did. He didn't main event over Austin either when Austin was in the top feud of the company with Bret Hart. Oh wait yeah he did. He certainly never beat the like Austin or the Rock. Oh wait yeah he did. But yeah Take has nothing on those guys.

A decade as the top star > barely ever the top star at all.

Yeah I'm so happy Emerald boy was so popular in Japan, good for him. When All Japan comes into WWE's territory and sells out then you can talk to me. You know how WWE has often been able to do in Japan.

Why should location matter at all? It's not objectively fair to give either the home field advantage... especially considering that Misawa never worked outside Japan, and taker never worked with All Japan or NOAH.

Yet the winners of matches are often dependent on where the match is held. Like Bret Hart usually winning in Calgary or Austin often winning in Texas or Hogan often winning in New York.

Except he's never beaten any of those top 3 at Mania. I'd take 1 win over Austin in such a setting than 3 over HHH.

Well HHH was the top guy of the A show for a number of years and one of those Mania wins were 1 month after HHH beat Austin clean in a 3 stages of hell match. So you're holding it against Taker because he never beat Austin at Mania? How dare the WWE try to protect their top guys at their biggest event of the year.

But he's also lost plenty of times to be stars that were considered the top draw. Why would that be any different with Misawa?

He's also beaten those same top draw stars and he's done it more than once. Yes he's lost but that doesn't eliminate his wins. It doesn't change the fact that he has beaten Austin a number of times as well, same as the Rock, or Hogan or nearly every top star the WWE has ever had.

And Misawa had the in ring work like a Shawn Michaels, the popularity like a Stone Cold, and the presence of... you guessed it... like an Undertaker.

Yeah I don't give 2 shits about what Meltzer says. He's a great wrestler I'll give him that. He didn't have popularity like Stone Cold, if he did he would have been bigger than wrestling and more than just hardcore wrestling fans would know who he is in America. So nice try there.

So basically you're voting Undy because you know nothing about Misawa. And what we have is the best superstar a major promotion like All Japan had for nearly a decade, versus a guy that always a great novelty but never the top star.

Simple decision... vote Misawa.

I know a lot about Misawa, a shit ton actually. You just don't like the fact I'm voting Undertaker because you have a boner for Japanese wrestling. Misawa can't come over to America and draw but I bet you ANYTHING Undertaker could go into Japan and easily draw. Misawa is a great wrestler, vote for him all you want, I'm not gonna stop you and I'm certainly not gonna question you for voting for him but don't act like Taker doesn't have a chance against Emerald boy because if you really believe that then you are obviously blinded by your love for Japanese wrestling.

I'm not against Misawa going over, you can easily make an argument about it but Undertaker can (and has) beaten everyone, and he can beat Misawa too.

 

[Bernkastel]

So are we just looking at 'Taker's Streak or his entire career? Because, while he may not have wins over Austin, Rock, or Cena at 'Mania, he's beaten all 3 of them on more than one occasion. You can also add Hogan to that list of biggest and best that 'Taker has beaten on more than one occasion.

Wins don't mean much; the Hurricane beat the Rock once, does that make him just as good? No. The Streak aside, why wasn't Undertaker billed as a top draw for the bulk of his career like they were? Even while he was world champ on the B show feuding with Batista, he was still second to Cena - or do you want to tell me that Undertaker was a bigger draw than Cena?

Misawa was THE Austin/Rock/Cena of All Japan, and was a bigger draw for much longer in the top spot than Undertaker was. That's why he should win.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Wins don't mean much; the Hurricane beat the Rock once, does that make him just as good? No. The Streak aside, why wasn't Undertaker billed as a top draw for the bulk of his career like they were? Even while he was world champ on the B show feuding with Batista, he was still second to Cena - or do you want to tell me that Undertaker was a bigger draw than Cena?

Misawa was THE Austin/Rock/Cena of All Japan, and was a bigger draw for much longer in the top spot than Undertaker was. That's why he should win.

You're right, I'll never say that 'Taker was a bigger draw than Cena, however, I know that when 'Taker goes to places like Japan, he is one of the WWE's biggest selling points. So along with Misawa, we know that 'Taker can draw in Japan. Do we know that Misawa can draw in America?

Also, Misawa was the top draw in Japan for what? A decade? 'Taker has been routinely one of the top 3 draws for the WWE for much longer than that and again, they did and do international tours all of the time. So really, who drew more money? Misawa who has never left Japan or 'Taker, who has been a major draw all over the world?

 

[Thriller Ant]

You're right, I'll never say that 'Taker was a bigger draw than Cena, however, I know that when 'Taker goes to places like Japan, he is one of the WWE's biggest selling points. So along with Misawa, we know that 'Taker can draw in Japan. Do we know that Misawa can draw in America?

Also, Misawa was the top draw in Japan for what? A decade? 'Taker has been routinely one of the top 3 draws for the WWE for much longer than that and again, they did and do international tours all of the time. So really, who drew more money? Misawa who has never left Japan or 'Taker, who has been a major draw all over the world?

Got any proof of that? I'm not necessarily saying this isn't true, but I'd hate to see a claim like that go without any evidence.

 

[Remy LaCroix]

I don't give a fuck that it's the Deadman, he hasn't got a chance at winning this match. I am not a WWE mark, so I'm voting for the better all-around puroresura of the two. Vote Misawa!!!

You think most of American wrestling fans have the faintest clue of who Misawa is?

Real wrestling fans, sure. Them "fans" living in the WWE-centric world, not a chance.

 

[Bernkastel]

Yet he was often booked over all of them. But yeah he was totally playing second fiddle to all those guys. Undertaker certainly didn't main event over Cena at their biggest event over the year. Oh wait yeah he did. He didn't main event over Austin either when Austin was in the top feud of the company with Bret Hart. Oh wait yeah he did. He certainly never beat the like Austin or the Rock. Oh wait yeah he did. But yeah Take has nothing on those guys.

Beating someone in kayfabe means nothing. Kane beat Austin at the height of his popularity, does that mean he's as good of a wrestler? Of course not. Why wasn't Undertaker billed as as a top draw over Austin/Cena/Rock if he was on their level? That's because he wasn't.

Yeah I'm so happy Emerald boy was so popular in Japan, good for him. When All Japan comes into WWE's territory and sells out then you can talk to me. You know how WWE has often been able to do in Japan.

WWE doesn't tour Japan that often, and they weren't at all when Misawa was in his prime. Thanks for the fallacy though.

Yet the winners of matches are often dependent on where the match is held. Like Bret Hart usually winning in Calgary or Austin often winning in Texas or Hogan often winning in New York.

You just automatically give the home boy the advantage without looking at the match objectively? Biased much? Even if this match were in Japan, I'd still be looking approaching it from a neutral playing field.

Well HHH was the top guy of the A show for a number of years and one of those Mania wins were 1 month after HHH beat Austin clean in a 3 stages of hell match. So you're holding it against Taker because he never beat Austin at Mania? How dare the WWE try to protect their top guys at their biggest event of the year.

HHH was never the kind of draw that Austin was; in 2003/2004 with HHH on top WWE was losing ratings. Undertaker ultimately was always billed underneath the top stars - Misawa was a top star, and Undertaker should be "booked" to lose this match.

He's also beaten those same top draw stars and he's done it more than once. Yes he's lost but that doesn't eliminate his wins. It doesn't change the fact that he has beaten Austin a number of times as well, same as the Rock, or Hogan or nearly every top star the WWE has ever had.

Again... kayfabe wins don't matter. If they did then why didn't Undertaker bring in the same kind of money that Austin or Rock was? Because he wasn't as good.

Yeah I don't give 2 shits about what Meltzer says. He's a great wrestler I'll give him that. He didn't have popularity like Stone Cold, if he did he would have been bigger than wrestling and more than just hardcore wrestling fans would know who he is in America. So nice try there.

Neither do I, and I've never once used him. I said Misawa was a bigger draw than Taker - which has nothing to do with anything Meltzer has said.

I know a lot about Misawa, a shit ton actually.

No you don't; if you did you wouldn't be arguing with me that Misawa wasn't a bigger draw than Taker.

You just don't like the fact I'm voting Undertaker because you have a boner for Japanese wrestling.

Misawa can't come over to America and draw but I bet you ANYTHING Undertaker could go into Japan and easily draw.

Misawa is a great wrestler, vote for him all you want, I'm not gonna stop you and I'm certainly not gonna question you for voting for him but don't act like Taker doesn't have a chance against Emerald boy because if you really believe that then you are obviously blinded by your love for Japanese wrestling.

I'm voting for Misawa because he was the bigger draw, a more established main eventer, and made more money for his promotion in his prime than Undertaker did for his.

I'm not against Misawa going over, you can easily make an argument about it but Undertaker can (and has) beaten everyone, and he can beat Misawa too.

Your entire argument has been "Taker wins cuz he's Taker" which is what I predicted all that stupid people would at the beginning.

 

[Bernkastel]

You're right, I'll never say that 'Taker was a bigger draw than Cena, however, I know that when 'Taker goes to places like Japan, he is one of the WWE's biggest selling points.

I don't think Undertaker was even on their last tour of Japan.

So along with Misawa, we know that 'Taker can draw in Japan. Do we know that Misawa can draw in America?

We know what WWE as a collective can draw in Japan, you're saying that Undertaker is the WWE collective? If not, then he's never drawn in Japan.

Also, Misawa was the top draw in Japan for what? A decade? 'Taker has been routinely one of the top 3 draws for the WWE for much longer than that and again, they did and do international tours all of the time. So really, who drew more money? Misawa who has never left Japan or 'Taker, who has been a major draw all over the world?

Last I checked being the top drawing in a major promotion for a decade was superior to being "3rd or 4th best" in a major promotion.

And Misawa was in his prime from the early to late 90's. I had no idea that Undertaker wrestled as "Undertaker" in the 80's.

 

[niallf96]

Look, I cannot talk about Misawa in depth, I've read all I've read about him (here and in other pages) and I think I pretty much know a good amount about him, enough to know that in my opinion, he is no Phenom. I'm sorry, Echelon, but to be fair to you, you singlehandedly made me think about my decision in the poll, and that's commendable, seeing as I want Taker to win the whole damn thing! BUT, my vote goes to the Undertaker...why? Many reasons....

Let's look at this objectively. This near 7 foot tall guy, on paper, has the most fearsome set of qualities in a wrestler ever! Let's look at all he can do. He rises from the dead, torments his opponents with images of death, and terrifying pain. He defies the laws of physics, and of all logic. He is immune to the pain his opponents lay into him and Dammit, he controls lightning! The Undertaker is, without doubt the most feared and terrifying wrestler in almost all of history. Of the top of my head, he is the most fearsome. I mean, who else do you know is someone you can't kill?

Not only does he have all these fearsome qualities, he's not just a slow guy like the Big Show, who someone like Misawa could take control off with his superior pace. But Taker wouldnt be caught out. He was, in his prime, an incredibly agile figure, who could keep up with the HBK of his generation. Just a mere year after his debut, he won the WWF Championship off one of the true greats in Wrestling, Hulk Hogan. Tell me anyone who is pushed like that, and isn't resented one little bit by any of the fans. He also has heart (weird considering that he's The Deadman and all). No matter how much of a beating he took, week after week, he would show up.

Even now, at 47 (?) after over 20 years at the top, he still delivers epic 5 star matches (granted once a year, but still...) with a guy like Triple H, not the best in the ring. He could take the easy route out, retire in peace, without anyone blaming him. But he continues to fight to defend the greatest streak in Wrestling, inside Hell In A Cell, in Casket Matches. Put simply, for me, Undertaker is the greatest of all time. Now, I know that many of you will disagree with that, but for me, I bring in how co-orperative the wrestler is. But I am taking this competition to be 'real' fights between two legends in their prime.

One final thing, The Undertaker was able to innovate himself and basically had no choice as he had to deal with different versions of himself over the past two decades, never letting one incarnation get tiring or boring and has commanded the respect of countless wrestling fans from different generations.

Undertaker gets my vote.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Last I checked being the top drawing in a major promotion for a decade was superior to being "3rd or 4th best" in a major promotion.

And Misawa was in his prime from the early to late 90's. I had no idea that Undertaker wrestled as "Undertaker" in the 80's.

You missed the entire point of what I was saying.

I was looking at 'Taker in terms of his entire career, because if there is one wrestler throughout this entire tournament that doesn't really have a defined, "prime", it's 'Taker. He's spent almost 23 years as a main event level performer and has routinely been among the top 3 most popular with in the WWE. Sure, being the top draw is better, however, through out 'Taker's entire career as a main event level performer, which again is almost 23 years, I think it would be safe to say that 'Taker has drawn pretty well.

 

[edgefan14]

undertaker is possibly the best wrestler on the biggest stage The WWE ever, Misawa was great in japan and i honestly dont know much about him but undertaker has beaten everyone in the buisness so i think he finds a way to win in the end by tombstone, chokeslam, or hells gate

 

[Thriller Ant]

Philly isn't a WWE stronghold as much as it is a smark stronghold. Smarks, they love their Japanese wrestling and Misawa is one of the gods of Japanese wrestling. Be careful when you try and use the location in your favor, because it just might backfire.

You missed the entire point of what I was saying.

I was looking at 'Taker in terms of his entire career, because if there is one wrestler throughout this entire tournament that doesn't really have a defined, "prime", it's 'Taker. He's spent almost 23 years as a main event level performer and has routinely been among the top 3 most popular with in the WWE. Sure, being the top draw is better, however, through out 'Taker's entire career as a main event level performer, which again is almost 23 years, I think it would be safe to say that 'Taker has drawn pretty well.

Do you plan on answering my question? You made a really big generalization and you need to back it up, especially since you are really overstating how important Undie has been.

 

[Bernkastel]

Look, I cannot talk about Misawa in depth, I've read all I've read about him (here and in other pages) and I think I pretty much know a good amount about him, enough to know that in my opinion, he is no Phenom. I'm sorry, Echelon, but to be fair to you, you singlehandedly made me think about my decision in the poll, and that's commendable, seeing as I want Taker to win the whole damn thing! BUT, my vote goes to the Undertaker...why? Many reasons....

Lets see if I can't rectify that decision further...

Let's look at this objectively. This near 7 foot tall guy, on paper, has the most fearsome set of qualities in a wrestler ever! Let's look at all he can do. He rises from the dead, torments his opponents with images of death, and terrifying pain. He defies the laws of physics, and of all logic. He is immune to the pain his opponents lay into him and Dammit, he controls lightning! The Undertaker is, without doubt the most feared and terrifying wrestler in almost all of history. Of the top of my head, he is the most fearsome. I mean, who else do you know is someone you can't kill?

Actually that is a subjective opinion, as a child I found Kane and early Mankind to be far more chilling. As is match quality - I could name enough great matches from both to fill a list a mile long.

Not only does he have all these fearsome qualities, he's not just a slow guy like the Big Show, who someone like Misawa could take control off with his superior pace. But Taker wouldnt be caught out. He was, in his prime, an incredibly agile figure, who could keep up with the HBK of his generation. Just a mere year after his debut, he won the WWF Championship off one of the true greats in Wrestling, Hulk Hogan. Tell me anyone who is pushed like that, and isn't resented one little bit by any of the fans. He also has heart (weird considering that he's The Deadman and all). No matter how much of a beating he took, week after week, he would show up.

This is more subjectiveness. Ever heard of Brock Lesnar? What about Ultimate Warrior? Batista? All were pushed really hard and fast and got the run from someone on top.

Even now, at 47 (?) after over 20 years at the top, he still delivers epic 5 star matches (granted once a year, but still...) with a guy like Triple H, not the best in the ring. He could take the easy route out, retire in peace, without anyone blaming him. But he continues to fight to defend the greatest streak in Wrestling, inside Hell In A Cell, in Casket Matches. Put simply, for me, Undertaker is the greatest of all time. Now, I know that many of you will disagree with that, but for me, I bring in how co-orperative the wrestler is. But I am taking this competition to be 'real' fights between two legends in their prime.

And yet more subjectiveness. Even past his prime Misawa founded his own promotion which were so popular statring out that they left All Japan in a financial hole. Misawa remained a household name in Japan until his death.

Calling Undertaker the greatest of all time is not objective; that's a subjective opinion that the Michaels fans are also going to face when he goes up against Brock Lesnar.

One final thing, The Undertaker was able to innovate himself and basically had no choice as he had to deal with different versions of himself over the past two decades, never letting one incarnation get tiring or boring and has commanded the respect of countless wrestling fans from different generations.

That's great and all, but it's still subjective. You act as if Undertaker is the only star to reinvent himself, or to find success with different personas; he's not.

Let me talk to you about being objective. With guys like Misawa and Taker you cannot compare them by match quality, workrate, influence, or even kayfabe - as neither have worked in the others promotion and for that the location is pointless other than promoting bias.

The only way to compare the two objectively is to look at money, ratings, and attendance records. We know that Misawa was the top star in All Japan. Undertaker was popular... but he was never the top star in the WWE. And that;s regardless of when you place his prime.

That's a point for Misawa...

All Japan wasn't drawing the attendance numbers that WWE was in the Attidude era, but All Japan wasn't working big cities with millions of people - they were working smaller wards of Tokyo and prefectures around Japan that had maybe a tenth of the population of major cities of the US. And that's not their fault. But even still they were always selling out; and sometimes more than double what an arena could hold. They might pull 2200 hundred people in an area that has 100,000 people. WWE might have pulled 25,000 for a RAW in 1999 in a city with over 1,000,000. Round it down and AJPW had impressive numbers.

Since Undertaker was never a top draw - not like Austin or Rock. Most of those 25,000 aren't coming to see him, but the 2200 fans packed into an arena that only accommodates 75% of that are coming to see Misawa because he was not only the biggest star in Tokyo, but also the whole country. Undertaker was never, not once, the biggest star in the US.

Here's a random example...

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=66635

Held in the Hakata prefecture of Fukuoka, they drew a sell out of 3100 with a population of just over 100,000 to work with. That's damn good.

Another point for Misawa...

So you can see that when it came to drawing money and ratings, Misawa was better than Taker. They both have great match lists a mile wide, but Misawa was objectively the better wrestler for a much longer period [1990 - 2000] than Taker, whose primes always saw him second to someone.

It's not hard to see who is better here, vote Misawa.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Beating someone in kayfabe means nothing. Kane beat Austin at the height of his popularity, does that mean he's as good of a wrestler? Of course not. Why wasn't Undertaker billed as as a top draw over Austin/Cena/Rock if he was on their level? That's because he wasn't.

Maybe he wasn't but are you really ignorant enough to put Misawa on the same level as Austin, Rock and Cena? I guess Carlos Colon and Eddie Graham are better than Taker as well then because they could draw in a specific geographic region as well. I never said Undertaker was the top draw of WWE I just said he was in fact a draw.

WWE doesn't tour Japan that often, and they weren't at all when Misawa was in his prime. Thanks for the fallacy though.

But they certainly have toured Japan and have done pretty well for themselves in the land of the rising sun. Certainly much better than AJPW has done anywhere that isn't Japan.

You just automatically give the home boy the advantage without looking at the match objectively? Biased much? Even if this match were in Japan, I'd still be looking approaching it from a neutral playing field.

Neutral playing field may be fair but it's not realistic at ALL. Matches are often booked based on where the opponents are fighting. There is nothing neutral about them fighting in Philly. You may not like it but it's certainly more plausible then what you are suggesting. Wrestling and the world isn't fair, get over it.

HHH was never the kind of draw that Austin was; in 2003/2004 with HHH on top WWE was losing ratings. Undertaker ultimately was always billed underneath the top stars - Misawa was a top star, and Undertaker should be "booked" to lose this match.

Once again he was booked often over those top stars, most of which are bigger than Misawa. Just because Misawa did well in 1 region of the world doesn't mean he would do well everywhere. It

Again... kayfabe wins don't matter. If they did then why didn't Undertaker bring in the same kind of money that Austin or Rock was? Because he wasn't as good.

Once again The Undertaker ISN'T facing Austin or The Rock! He's facing a guy who was a big in 1 country. It's not like he's facing someone who didn't have a chance to be a worldwide star. Misawa however wrestled during the same timeframe as Taker did. He was the top draw for All Japan, I get that but it doesn't change the fact he did fuck all anywhere else. As I said before you may as well argue Carlos Colon over Taker because he was a top draw in Puerto Rico.

Neither do I, and I've never once used him. I said Misawa was a bigger draw than Taker - which has nothing to do with anything Meltzer has said.

Drawing in 1 part of the world doesn't make you a bigger draw. Undertaker wasn't the top draw but he drew fans in everywhere he went whether it was Canada, US, Europe, Middle East, Africa or a hundred other places he wrestled.

No you don't; if you did you wouldn't be arguing with me that Misawa wasn't a bigger draw than Taker.

Yeah because drawing well in 1 country makes you a bigger overall draw then a guy who drew in a number of countries. Take Undertaker and put him in lets say England. Take Misawa and put him in the same place. Now lets see who draws more fans. Now lets do that and put both wrestlers in every other country where wrestling has a fan base and see who draws better. Do you really believe Misawa would beat out The Undertaker? Good luck with that!

I'm voting for Misawa because he was the bigger draw, a more established main eventer, and made more money for his promotion in his prime than Undertaker did for his.

Yes I get he did well at drawing yen. Unfortunately he never did it with other currency. You're taking Misawa because he was a big star in Japan and nowhere else. Taker was a big star EVERYWHERE! Who cares if he wasn't the #1 guy, his competition is Austin, Rock, Hogan and Cena, NOT Misawa! And don't give me some ridiculous speech about how Misawa was as big as a draw as Austin, Rock, Hogan or Cena because he certainly isn't. Put Misawa in the WWE and lets see how well he does.

Your entire argument has been "Taker wins cuz he's Taker" which is what I predicted all that stupid people would at the beginning.

You're voting for a guy who did well in ONE region on the planet and you are calling everyone else stupid. The Undertaker is one of the most influential and popular wrestlers of all time and did so at a time where every major American wrestler over the past 20 years was wrestling. At times he main evented over every single one of them on major shows and small. Stop comparing Japan over the rest of the world because that's exactly what you are doing. You're only argument in "Misawa did better in All Japan than Taker did in WWE". The ponds aren't in no way the same size.

Is Eddie Graham better than Randy Savage? He must be he was the top draw in Florida and Savage was never the top dog in WWE right?