WWE Region, Memphis Subregion, First Round: (12) Roddy Piper vs. (21) Yokozuna

[Mr. Artistic guy]

My argument is based on character portrayal. For example Jake is better than Yoko but he's not the top face, his job was to get the heel ready for the top face. Much like Piper although Piper was higher on the card. Piper was a draw but he was never the guy who was meant to win, it just wasn't his job. Being better doesn't mean always winning and given Piper was used most to get feuds and others over I think him doing the same for Yoko makes a lot of sense.

I'm not saying Piper can't win but Piper often lost because he didnt have to win, that's why he usually lost in WWE. At the end he could job a year straight and be as over as he ever was. Yoko is the type who would win a good chunk of matches until the big face stopped him. As the headline of Summerslam 93 says "somebody has to stop him" but Piper has never been the guy who stopped the big heel. Character wise its more likely for Piper to lose, that's what he did.

This is a tournament where we are seeking to distinguish the greatest wrestler of all time, not the most highly booked. If we're going with that, it's probably Goldberg or Andre every year. I mean, you can vote whichever way you want, but Roddy Piper wins in most contests between these two. Drawing, working, talking, longevity (retrospectively) and so on.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Except for Adrian Adonis

And for Hollywood Hogan

And for Jerry Lawler

You mentioned how Piper would be playing the babyface in this match; it isn't his prime, but for the sake of the match, let's make him the face. Because when he's a face, he gets the payoff in the end. He did against Adonis, who was bigger than him, and he did with Hollywood Hogan, clean in the middle of the ring. Piper was brought in against the most over heel in professional wrestling (and I think you could make the argument Hollywood Hogan was the greatest heel character ever), at the biggest pay per view WCW has to offer, and beat him clean

Wanna backtrack that argument a little, babaloo?

Adonis was a midcarder, don't compare him to Yoko, he isn't in the same league. Lawler was an announcer at the time and outside 2 matches Hollywood reigned supreme over Piper. He never beat Hogan for the title not to mention both guys could barely wrestle at the time. Piper beat Hogan true but ultimately was beaten down like everyone else until Sting. So Piper beat a midcarder, an announcer and a guy in his mid 40's who he ultimately fell to, yeah you really showed me.

He never faced a 500lb monster like Yoko so don't compare Yoko to Adrian Adonis, Piper beat The Mountie too, so? Yoko beat Hogan and definitively so, Hogan was GONE after Yoko beat him for 8 years but its not an argument I'm using because its an unfair one and completely out of context and has nothing to do with this. I will say though over everyone else it was decided that Yoko was the guy who got to say he ended the biggest babyface in wrestling history at the time and even if Hogan was done he chose Yoko to end him, kayfabe wise that's pretty good.

Sorry for the WWE booking argument as I took the regions too literally my bad. I still go with Yoko winning though. He often went over top babyfaces who were I their prime and is easily believable to beat Piper and since Piper was used to put others over I think it would happen here as well.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

This is a tournament where we are seeking to distinguish the greatest wrestler of all time, not the most highly booked. If we're going with that, it's probably Goldberg or Andre every year. I mean, you can vote whichever way you want, but Roddy Piper wins in most contests between these two. Drawing, working, talking, longevity (retrospectively) and so on.

You say that but last year it often worked on kayfabe. The Brain, D-Man and Sly are 3 guys who voted for Cena last year using mostly kayfabe arguments. Cena was top face, Austin was top face therefore Rock beats Cena and Rock often lost big matches. That was the basis of their argument. I'm making a similar argument so I don't feel I'm wrong. I'm not saying anyone else is wrong but logically I don't see Piper winning this match. Just my opinion and I've given my reasons why.

 

[Con T.]

Your argument was that Piper never comes out on top. As a face? Actually, yeah he does. Let me ask you something; what was the most unstoppable force in professional wrestling in 1996?

If you answered the nWo and Hogan, you're right. In kayfabe, nothing could stop Hogan, and Piper was the first. Actually, the more I think about it, Piper may be Hogan's first clean loss in WCW. Sure, in non kayfabe he was older, but kayfabe (where I believe your argument is coming completely from) nothing was stopping him.

Also, Adonis was a main event guy in the early 80s... I'm not sure where you're getting this mid carder thing from, but it isn't totally correct.

Also, did Yokozuna beat him dominantly, or did he need to use a fireball?

 

[AhSpicyDrop]

Adonis was a midcarder, don't compare him to Yoko, he isn't in the same league. Lawler was an announcer at the time and outside 2 matches Hollywood reigned supreme over Piper. He never beat Hogan for the title not to mention both guys could barely wrestle at the time. Piper beat Hogan true but ultimately was beaten down like everyone else until Sting. So Piper beat a midcarder, an announcer and a guy in his mid 40's who he ultimately fell to, yeah you really showed me.

You clearly have no idea who Adrian Adonis was, or you wouldn't be talking so lowly about him. He wasn't "just a midcarder". That was a huge angle going into that Mania with Piper being gone and Adonis starting up his "Flower Shop" gig. Adonis was one of the most over and hated heels during that era, ESPECIALLY for that match.

Also, Hogan was at his biggest point as a heel when Piper beat him. The title means nothing, it's just a prop... After all these years people STILL don't understand that the god damn gold belt is just a prop.

And Lawler wasn't "just an announcer" when he wrestled Piper... He was wrestling pretty consistently, and his history had been well documented. Everybody knew who Jerry Lawler was. There's a reason that match went on last.

He never faced a 500lb monster like Yoko so don't compare Yoko to Adrian Adonis, Piper beat The Mountie too, so? Yoko beat Hogan and definitively so, Hogan was GONE after Yoko beat him for 8 years but its not an argument I'm using because its an unfair one and completely out of context and has nothing to do with this. I will say though over everyone else it was decided that Yoko was the guy who got to say he ended the biggest babyface in wrestling history at the time and even if Hogan was done he chose Yoko to end him, kayfabe wise that's pretty good.

Hulkamania was alive and well not long after he lost to Yokozuna, only with a different company. You act like Hogan didn't kick Yokozuna's ass at Wrestlemania 9, complete with a body slam. Yokozuna didn't beat Hogan cleanly, it took a photographer throwing a fireball into Hogan's eyes.

Also in regards to "never faced a 500lb monster like Yoko", I've seen Piper wrestle Andre the Giant several times, and beat him on top of that, albeit by count out. So at the very least you have to consider the possibility that Piper would win by count out.

Sorry for the WWE booking argument as I took the regions too literally my bad. I still go with Yoko winning though. He often went over top babyfaces who were I their prime and is easily believable to beat Piper and since Piper was used to put others over I think it would happen here as well.

Yokozuna was the weakest big man champion the WWF ever had. He VERY RARELY went over top competition without cheating, which is saying a lot considering considering how big he was... Someone his size shouldn't have needed the influence of Fuji and later Cornette to help him get victories.

 

[Brewski]

This is actually a pretty tough one. I pick piper in this because of his resiliency. Nothing against Yoko, but in a tournament Rowdy Roddy advances via pinfall.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

You clearly have no idea who Adrian Adonis was, or you wouldn't be talking so lowly about him. He wasn't "just a midcarder". That was a huge angle going into that Mania with Piper being gone and Adonis starting up his "Flower Shop" gig. Adonis was one of the most over and hated heels during that era, ESPECIALLY for that match.

I'm stating a fact, I'm not talking lowly of Adonis and never did, I called him a mid carder and he was. Rick Rude got mad heat in his feud with Jake Roberts but he was still a mid carder and was NEVER the top heel, Yoko was. That's my point and that's why you don't compare the 2 as they are 2 completely different situations.

Also, Hogan was at his biggest point as a heel when Piper beat him. The title means nothing, it's just a prop... After all these years people STILL don't understand that the god damn gold belt is just a prop.

Hogan also beat Piper, its not all about wins and losses. Also the belt wasn't always the prop, for Christ sake it was made as the biggest deal in the world when Hogan was in the nWo holding onto it. The belt is what you make of it, it can be a prop but in this case its not and wasn't.

And Lawler wasn't "just an announcer" when he wrestled Piper... He was wrestling pretty consistently, and his history had been well documented. Everybody knew who Jerry Lawler was. There's a reason that match went on last.

The next person Lawler feuded with after Piper was Doink the Clown. It was last because it was the only match on the card with an angle and was mostly used to set up Bret vs. Owen more. Bret probably went on in the middle of the card so Jim could save the title so Owen could beat him for it later, for storyline purposes Bret had to wrestle earlier in the night. Everyone knew who Lawler was but he was by no means some big, perennial main eventer at the time. He was good, I loved his feud with Bret but he was known more as an announcer at the time. In 94 I would be surprised if he wrestled a dozen matches all year.

Hulkamania was alive and well not long after he lost to Yokozuna, only with a different company. You act like Hogan didn't kick Yokozuna's ass at Wrestlemania 9, complete with a body slam. Yokozuna didn't beat Hogan cleanly, it took a photographer throwing a fireball into Hogan's eyes.

That's not how WWE booked it though and that's what you got to remember. WWE booked Yoko as the guy who ended Hulkamania when they could have had anyone else do it, even Bret but they went with Yoko. Hogan beat Yoko after he had a 20 minute match and that was part of the story too, Hogan beat Yoko when Yoko was weak but couldn't do it when he was fresh. This was actually the storyline and how it was booked not to mention Yoko beat him with his own leg drop. Yoko was booked stronger against Hogan than anyone before him outside maybe Warrior.

Also in regards to "never faced a 500lb monster like Yoko", I've seen Piper wrestle Andre the Giant several times, and beat him on top of that, albeit by count out. So at the very least you have to consider the possibility that Piper would win by count out.

I never said he couldn't I just don't see it being booked that way. Like I said Piper was often booked to lose because he didn't need to win. That's not a knock against Piper but it may be the ultimate compliment. He doesn't need to win which is why he often didn't.

Yokozuna was the weakest big man champion the WWF ever had. He VERY RARELY went over top competition without cheating, which is saying a lot considering considering how big he was... Someone his size shouldn't have needed the influence of Fuji and later Cornette to help him get victories.

Doesn't matter if he cheated, it only matters if he won or not. I'm not calling anyone wrong for voting Piper, I get it but I think in such a situation (not because Yoko is so much better but based on a tournament situation) Yoko would win. I'm not saying you're wrong for feeling Piper would win but I'm going with Yoko based on the situation and information presented to me.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

This is a classic loss for Piper - Roddy puts up a solid effort, but comes nowhere near victory.

Piper had a weak offense. He did, don't argue against that, please. In Piper's prime, he really wasn't a big winner. Yoko was. No matter how hard I try, I can't imagine Piper doing anything to beat Yoko.

Yoko wins, with ease.

 

[Jaffa]

I don't really get the argument about Yokozuna not being able to knock off the top guys please tell me as faces how often Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan and even Lex Luger lost cleanly between 1992-1995 when Yokozuna was at his most dominant. At a time when it was as a rare as a green sheep to win cleanly as a heel you can hardly attack Yokozuna for this when Piper almost always cheated himself to win as a heel which was whenever he was a main eventer btw. Yokozuna was a true monster heel he was a wrecking nachine I can't understand how people can view him as someone who could get beaten by Piper.

Whats up with this Piper resiliency thing what Yokozuna just walked out of the ring if he didn't win in a squash or something

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I'm sure plenty of people have made passionate arguments for Roddy Piper. While I personally enjoyed Piper more than Yokozuna, I can't think of one logical reason to vote for Piper.

Yokozuna was a dominant force in WWE during the mid 90s. Technically speaking, Yokozuna was a 2 time WWE Champion, though the first reign was among the shortest in history. All the same, the fact that Yokozuna captured the title at all is something that Piper never did. Probably the single most important thing that Yokozuna did that Piper never did was defeat Hulk Hogan clean in a 1 on 1 match. Not only that, but he beat him for the WWE Championship.

To me, Piper was always more entertaining on the mic. That's not to say I didn't enjoy his matches, but his greatest strength was his mouth. Frankly, I think Piper would be fortunate to get Yoko off his feet.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Your argument was that Piper never comes out on top. As a face? Actually, yeah he does. Let me ask you something; what was the most unstoppable force in professional wrestling in 1996?

If you answered the nWo and Hogan, you're right. In kayfabe, nothing could stop Hogan, and Piper was the first. Actually, the more I think about it, Piper may be Hogan's first clean loss in WCW. Sure, in non kayfabe he was older, but kayfabe (where I believe your argument is coming completely from) nothing was stopping him.

Also, Adonis was a main event guy in the early 80s... I'm not sure where you're getting this mid carder thing from, but it isn't totally correct.

Also, did Yokozuna beat him dominantly, or did he need to use a fireball?

In what universe was Adrian Adonis a main eventer in the WWE? Can you find me 1 match where he actually main evented a show that wasn't in the early 80's as part of the East/West Connection? Having great heat and being a main eventer are 2 completely different things, when Piper fought Adonis he was in the middle of the card and both Savage/Steamboat and Hogan/Andre were built above Piper/Adonis at the time. MIDCARD PROGRAM! End of Story! You act like I'm knocking Adonis for being a midcarder in WWE and I'm not I'm just simply stating facts. Comparing Adonis in the AWA to Adonis in WWE are 2 completely different things. Ronnie Garvin and Paul Roma were main eventers in NWA, does that mean they meant anything in the WWE?

Piper was the 1st guy to beat Hogan yes but it was to keep the story going, someone had to beat Hogan and Piper was logically the only guy at the time to do it. It's not Sting because they are building his angle and WCW didn't have the strongest face pool in '96. At the end of the day Hogan and the nWo reigned supreme over Piper, not the other way around. He never took the title off Hogan which was really what the WCW guy was trying to do. He won a few battles but Hogan won the war. So at the end of the day Hogan wins. He kept the title, Piper didn't stop him, he just slowed him down.

Lets look at Yoko's match at KOTR 93, also note Hogan needed Fuji salt and for Yoko to wrestle a 20 minute match to beat him. Yoko dominated Hogan the whole match (which was something everyone did to be fair), but here are some things Yoko did that no one else did at the time:

1) He kicked OUT of Hogan's Leg Drop. No one did that until Yoko, not even Andre.
2) Hogan did NOT Hulk up and beat Yoko.
3) Hogan lost to his own leg drop.
4) Hogan left for 8 years after Yoko beat.

Now that honor could have went to Luger, Perfect, Savage, Undertaker or Bret Hart but out of all those guys the one they decided to get that feather in that cap, the guy who could say he ENDED Hulkamania was in fact Yokozuna. Yoko did something NO ONE ever did before and ended the single greatest force in WWE history. Say what you will but that's a big deal. How many people cheated against Hogan only for Hogan to come back and win? But he didn't do that with Yoko. How is that not being booked strong? That's as strong as you can get in wrestling. It's impossible to do better than that for a heel.

Piper's better but you know damn well Piper would do the job to Yokozuna even if you didn't want it to happen. Very few would book Piper of Yoko and Piper would be a perfect victim for Yokozuna. For a top heel there aren't too many guys who Piper reigned supreme over and I could literally sit here and name a number of guys Piper lost to in his prime.

1) Jimmy Snuka
2) Hulk Hogan
3) Mr. T
4) Bruno Sammartino
5) Paul Orndorff
6) Andre
7) JYD

These were all when Piper was at his hottest. The fact I'm saying Piper would lose is actually a compliment. Piper was so good he could lose literally every match in WWE (not saying he never won) and it wouldn't mean a damn thing because Piper's mouth could get him where he needs to go. The only time Piper was champ was to put over other guys like Bret Hart. That was Piper's job and there's nothing wrong with that. Piper would most likely do the same for Yoko, if he does the job to Bret (who was a mid carder at the time and needing a push) he does the job to WWE's top heel.

I get why you are voting Piper, I do. I'm not knocking you for that, I know Piper was better but if the better wrestler always won then wrestling would be pretty F'n boring. Even Cena would lose once in a while.

 

[Papa Pillman]

If Piper gets Yokozuna down, history shows he's fucked, unless you want to argue for outside interference, a shitty argument.

Normally this would be true, but when we're talking about a guy who owed alot of his major kayfabe success(and notably his two titles) to this type of interference, its tough to immediately dismiss it as a "shitty" argument.

No matter how you want to classify it, and certainly the circumstances of the accomplishments should be mentioned, Yokozuna still managed to win the WWF title twice, and beat Hogan(which Piper failed to pull off) and Hart to do it. And he also counts Undertaker amongst his successful defenses, in a casket match no less.

Also the big man may have a bone to pick with Hot Rod due to Piper's role as ref in Anoa'i's failed attempt to defend the title at WM X. He also successfully retained the title earlier at that Mania at a time when it was basically unheard of for heels to do such a thing.

This is simply a case of a bad draw for Piper. Yokozuna advances in a seeding upset.

 

[AhSpicyDrop]

People are putting way too much fucking emphasis on WWF alone... Yeah, I know WWE is the only true surviving big dog left today, but that doesn't make its history church in the sense of every regard... This isn't the "Wrestlezone what they did in WWE is the only fucking thing that matters Tournament"... If we're going to start discrediting stars for their work outside of the WWE then what's the point of the tournament really? If you took promotional affiliation away and lined up: "Rowdy" Roddy Piper vs. Rodney An'oai would it really ring the same? There's too many guys in this tournament that have worked in multiple promotions with good accomplishments in those promotions that shouldn't be discarded is my point.

I realize with this tournament there's no "wrong way" to vote, but people need to have a little bit of control when it comes to falling in love with kayfabe. I don't remember who said it at this point because there's been so much shit said but "If we followed Kayfabe then Andre the Giant and Goldberg would win every year". There has to be a god damn line drawn somewhere in between reality and kayfabe for logical discussion.

People saying "Yokozuna beat Hogan when Piper couldn't" is a bullshit argument in itself because Hogan was nowhere NEAR the popularity that he was when he was wrestling Piper. If you want to get that deeply entrenched in kayfabe, if Yokozuna would have been around in 1989-1990, he would have been Hulk Hogan's Earthquake. Yokozuna's title reign was a product of "the right place, at the right time". Hogan's stock wasn't worth shit after the steroid allegations.

And if I recall correctly, and I've been known to be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I remember Piper beating Hogan clean in WCW where Hogan was clearly their biggest draw.

I'm not saying people are wrong for voting Yokozuna over Piper, that's a matter of personal preference... But I am stating that some of the arguments are vomit-inducing weak when you have to judge the two guys based on one promotion alone.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

People are putting way too much fucking emphasis on WWF alone... Yeah, I know WWE is the only true surviving big dog left today, but that doesn't make its history church in the sense of every regard... This isn't the "Wrestlezone what they did in WWE is the only fucking thing that matters Tournament"... If we're going to start discrediting stars for their work outside of the WWE then what's the point of the tournament really? If you took promotional affiliation away and lined up: "Rowdy" Roddy Piper vs. Rodney An'oai would it really ring the same? There's too many guys in this tournament that have worked in multiple promotions with good accomplishments in those promotions that shouldn't be discarded is my point.

I realize with this tournament there's no "wrong way" to vote, but people need to have a little bit of control when it comes to falling in love with kayfabe. I don't remember who said it at this point because there's been so much shit said but "If we followed Kayfabe then Andre the Giant and Goldberg would win every year". There has to be a god damn line drawn somewhere in between reality and kayfabe for logical discussion.

People saying "Yokozuna beat Hogan when Piper couldn't" is a bullshit argument in itself because Hogan was nowhere NEAR the popularity that he was when he was wrestling Piper. If you want to get that deeply entrenched in kayfabe, if Yokozuna would have been around in 1989-1990, he would have been Hulk Hogan's Earthquake. Yokozuna's title reign was a product of "the right place, at the right time". Hogan's stock wasn't worth shit after the steroid allegations.

And if I recall correctly, and I've been known to be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I remember Piper beating Hogan clean in WCW where Hogan was clearly their biggest draw.

I'm not saying people are wrong for voting Yokozuna over Piper, that's a matter of personal preference... But I am stating that some of the arguments are vomit-inducing weak when you have to judge the two guys based on one promotion alone.

We look at WWE because these are matches when both guys are in their prime, therefore we look at WWE in both matches because that's when both guys were in their prime, at their best so to speak. If Piper was in his prime in NWA or WCW we would use that as our arguments. Piper was in the main event in his prime, so was Yoko, but Yoko was booked stronger in his prime than Piper was. Piper was in main feuds but was the guy you watched get his ass beat because you couldn't stand the guy. He was the guy you could beat but could never shut up. Yoko in his prime was the guy that very few could beat and he was booked as such. Even the biggest babyface of all time couldn't beat Yoko clean.

No one is discrediting what Piper did but when we look at these match ups we look at their primes only, not their entire careers. If that was the case then Hogan, Andre, and Flair would be in the semi finals every year and Hogan would sweep every tournament.

 

[Bernkastel]

Both of these guys in there primes were heels right? Which guy was a more effective at doing their job, Roddy Piper, or Yokozuna? Obviously the answer is Yokozuna. His sheer girth, coupled with his uncanny agility, made him a legitimate threat to everyone that he faced. Didn't matter if it Hogan, Bret Hart, or even a young Steve Austin. It was a true "oh shit" moment whenever Yokozuna came to the ring.

Some can argue that Roddy could steal a victory, or that Yoko would simply take himself out by breaking the ring post. But those are pretty poor arguments, why? I can't see Piper pinning Yoko with a thumb the eye/low blow and school boy roll up combo because the man was simply too large. It took everything, plus the kitchen sink, from guys twice Piper's size just to get the man off his feet. A coconut to the skull probably wouldn't do anything but piss him off, and the likelihood of Yoko taking himself out would be unrealistic. Why? Because Yoko rarely used high risk moves on opponents that weren't booked to his level, and Piper wouldn't have been on his level.

Yoko was WWE champion in his heyday, and his competition would have been the best of the best at the time - like Bret Hart. Piper was great, but he was never considered part of the best of the best. Vote Yokozuna.

 

[Shocky]

I'm a Piper mark, but I'm having a hard time justifying a vote for him. There are no gimmicks attached to this match, so what exactly can Piper do to beat Yoko? Yoko's girth is something that simply can't be ignored for the sake of voting Piper. The only thing Piper could hope for is for Yoko to put himself on his back. Piper is easily the bigger name of the two, but he's simply outmatched and lacks the firepower to take down Yoko.

 

[Con T.]

Whoooooa, Nelly. I come back to this thread, and find shit upon shit. Shit stacked upon shit, so that you can see it from the rafters. Xzibit came to our front door, and said, "yo dawg, we heard you like shit..." I can stop now, right?

Ok, a couple of things I want to get out of the way here and now;

All the same, the fact that Yokozuna captured the title at all is something that Piper never did.

Please, see this, if you weeeilll:

2. Being WWF Champion is worthwhile on it's own

Not really; it's a nice little accolade, but as champion, your main goal is to draw an audience. Now, this has changed somewhat in years, but even in Yoko's time, the presumption was that Yoko would draw a massive audience for a patriotism angle.

That was never the case. In fact, Yokozuna was a pretty mediocre draw throughout his whole reign. And save me the whole "heels aren't meant to be the main draw" argument; Flair drew audiences to watch him wrestle Ricky fucking Morton.

Piper, on the other hand, is one of the greatest draws in wrestling history. It was him, Hogan, and Mr. T that put Wrestlemania on their shoulders, and made it the success that it was. It was Piper, with Hogan, that broke business records in attendance in 85. And it was Piper that helped make wrestling a national business.

Yokozuna was a largely mediocre draw, who was shoved back down the line as soon as Undertaker came back to finish off their big angle. Oh, and that did shitty business, too. And it had Chuck Norris

When you do shitty business with Chuck Norris on the marquee, something's wrong.

This is still true, you know? I mean, I get that whole, "I didn't read anyone else's arguments" (side note: for how smart everyone says you are, doesn't it come off a little myopic to not even bother to read the other side of the argument before you reply? I'm just saying), but this is still a true fact in business, and in wrestling. So I'd like to hear you squirm your way out of this one.

And, while we're at it, because you chose to read so many different posts in this thread:

Yokozuna was a dominant force in WWE during the mid 90s.

A couple of arguments I've seen already that I don't agree with, at all.

1. Yokozuna was a dominant force:

Oh, really? Because it looked like to me that Yokozuna needed a lot of help whenever he was champion. Whether it be needing eleven guys to beat Undertaker or Mr. Fuji to beat Bret Hart, Yokozuna rarely got the kind of clean wins everyone seems to think he got. Even when dealing with the likes of a part time Macho Man and Hacksaw, Yoko rarely just got the clean win.

Maybe you should read a little before going all herp a derp on the forums?

In what universe was Adrian Adonis a main eventer in the WWE? Can you find me 1 match where he actually main evented a show that wasn't in the early 80's as part of the East/West Connection?

I'm glad you went to Adonis' wiki before you said find me one match he wasn't in the main event of. But anyway; The main event of the May 1st Tapings, in 1986, at the height of Orndorff's power, in Madison Square Garden

WWF Saturday Night's Main Event Taping
May 1st 1986 Adrian Adonis def. (DQ) Paul Orndorff

And before you call it a one off, actually, no. Adonis was an extension of Roddy Piper and his legitimate main event feud with the man he turned on, Paul Orndorff. It's probably why when Roddy Piper turned on Adonis and went babyface, that it was such a big deal.

Probably the single most important thing that Yokozuna did that Piper never did was defeat Hulk Hogan clean in a 1 on 1 match.

And before you say it:

1. Don't be dense; yes, that is Hulk Hogan. You can argue that it was Hollywood Hogan, but it's the same fucking guy. Same balding hair. Same world title. Same mustache. It's the same. fucking. guy.

2. Spare me the kayfabe prime argument, because Yokozuna didn't beat him in his prime, either. No one did, save for Andre at the Main Event tapings. No one beat Hogan in his prime, get over it. My God, if Yokozuna existed in the heyday of Hogan's prime, I can assure you he'd be chewed and spit out, just like most of the monsters Hogan faced (See, Kamala, One Man Gang, Bundy, Killer Khan). Of course, he would have also done something he never did as champion, draw a killer house or two.

Again, it really helps when you read the other person's argument.

Didn't matter if it Hogan, Bret Hart, or even a young Steve Austin. It was a true "oh shit" moment whenever Yokozuna came to the ring.

It was a special attraction, but it didn't draw money, plain and simple. And no one has proven to me that Yokozuna had any drawing power as champion, in which you may see my first post, and come back to me.

Yoko's girth is something that simply can't be ignored for the sake of voting Piper.

Fat guys don't lose in wrestling?

A list of the guys I personally saw Yokozuna get knocked to the ground by;

Macho Man
Bret Hart
Tatanka
Jim Duggan
Earthquake
Undertaker
Lex Luger
Crush
Shawn Michaels
Ahmed Johnson
Vader
British Bulldog
Mr. Perfect
Owen Hart
Diesel
Razor Ramon
Steve Austin

I have no problem showing you any of these guys.

Also, it's wrestling. If you're going to argue like it's a shoot and say Yokozuna won't sell for Roddy Piper's offense (great arguments, you dispshits. Yokozuna just won't sell. If that were the case, no one would get him down), but I'm curious how many of you will vote Ricky Steamboat over Ken Shamrock, and will vote Goldberg all the way to the finals.

It's a work guys; don't piss on my leg and call it rain, and don't try to convince me Yokozuna would win using shoot logic.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Whoooooa, Nelly. I come back to this thread, and find shit upon shit. Shit stacked upon shit, so that you can see it from the rafters. Xzibit came to our front door, and said, "yo dawg, we heard you like shit..." I can stop now, right?

Ok, a couple of things I want to get out of the way here and now;



Please, see this, if you weeeilll:



This is still true, you know? I mean, I get that whole, "I didn't read anyone else's arguments" (side note: for how smart everyone says you are, doesn't it come off a little myopic to not even bother to read the other side of the argument before you reply? I'm just saying), but this is still a true fact in business, and in wrestling. So I'd like to hear you squirm your way out of this one.

And, while we're at it, because you chose to read so many different posts in this thread:





Maybe you should read a little before going all herp a derp on the forums?



I'm glad you went to Adonis' wiki before you said find me one match he wasn't in the main event of. But anyway; The main event of the May 1st Tapings, in 1986, at the height of Orndorff's power, in Madison Square Garden

WWF Saturday Night's Main Event Taping
May 1st 1986 Adrian Adonis def. (DQ) Paul Orndorff

And before you call it a one off, actually, no. Adonis was an extension of Roddy Piper and his legitimate main event feud with the man he turned on, Paul Orndorff. It's probably why when Roddy Piper turned on Adonis and went babyface, that it was such a big deal.

And before you say it:

1. Don't be dense; yes, that is Hulk Hogan. You can argue that it was Hollywood Hogan, but it's the same fucking guy. Same balding hair. Same world title. Same mustache. It's the same. fucking. guy.

2. Spare me the kayfabe prime argument, because Yokozuna didn't beat him in his prime, either. No one did, save for Andre at the Main Event tapings. No one beat Hogan in his prime, get over it. My God, if Yokozuna existed in the heyday of Hogan's prime, I can assure you he'd be chewed and spit out, just like most of the monsters Hogan faced (See, Kamala, One Man Gang, Bundy, Killer Khan). Of course, he would have also done something he never did as champion, draw a killer house or two.

Again, it really helps when you read the other person's argument.



It was a special attraction, but it didn't draw money, plain and simple. And no one has proven to me that Yokozuna had any drawing power as champion, in which you may see my first post, and come back to me.



Fat guys don't lose in wrestling?

A list of the guys I personally saw Yokozuna get knocked to the ground by;

Macho Man
Bret Hart
Tatanka
Jim Duggan
Earthquake
Undertaker
Lex Luger
Crush
Shawn Michaels
Ahmed Johnson
Vader
British Bulldog
Mr. Perfect
Owen Hart
Diesel
Razor Ramon
Steve Austin

I have no problem showing you any of these guys.

Also, it's wrestling. If you're going to argue like it's a shoot and say Yokozuna won't sell for Roddy Piper's offense (great arguments, you dispshits. Yokozuna just won't sell. If that were the case, no one would get him down), but I'm curious how many of you will vote Ricky Steamboat over Ken Shamrock, and will vote Goldberg all the way to the finals.

It's a work guys; don't piss on my leg and call it rain, and don't try to convince me Yokozuna would win using shoot logic.

I'm only gonna say this once more before I read whatever drivel you comment back on thinking you are smart which will most likely drive me to drink.

Stop talking about Hogan vs. Piper at Starrcade or anything Piper did before he went to WWE. This is A PRIME Yokozuna vs. A PRIME Roddy Piper therefore Starrcade '96 doesn't count, you can't use that as a legitimate argument because its NOT a legitimate argument. Why do you keep bringing up stuff that happened almost 10 years after Pipers prime?

If you vote for Piper fine, but mention stuff he did in his prime, all you've mentioned is a match between Piper and Adonis at Wrestlemania 3 not to mention you only found me ONE match that Adonis main evented in. The Hart Foundation main evented numerous shows, so did The Rockers, so did The Brain Busters and the Killer Bees.

Adonis has 1 thing of note in WWF any you treat him like he's on the same level as Yokozuna, are you kidding me? Adonis DIDN'T main event 2 wrestlemania's. Adonis didn't hold the IC Title let alone the World Title. I like Adonis but you're comparing him to one of the top big men in wrestling.

So if you vote for Piper give an argument about Piper in his prime, not stuff he did against Chavo Sr., not stuff he did against a mid 40's Hogan because its irrelevant.

I'm not knocking the fact you vote for Piper but find things of note in his prime, not every little thing throughout his entire career.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Sleeper hold. Roddy Piper's 100 times smarter in the ring than Yokozuna and Piper is as dirty of a wrestler as you'll find in this tournament. You don't think he'll put out a win against a man who can be tipped over and earn a pin fall? Yoko was dominant for a good while, but like all big men, he was figured out. And Piper would make sure to figure out Banzai and put the big ol' tub o' goo to sleep.

EVERYONE PAYS THE PIPER! EVEN BANZAI!

 

[Con T.]

And I'll tell you one more time, since you clearly saw the picture and didn't read anything; we're usin different measures of defining the greater wrestler. I like to look at the whole career; using primes is fine, and I'm not burying you for usin primes. Of course, there are some holes to the logic, and I'm just saying that, but what I am burying your decision making, for saying my way is wrong.

And yes, you are

 

[#tamale]

Piper helped make Wrestlemania a success. Hogan needed Piper. Mr. T needed Piper. Piper is the prime example of what many heel wrestlers to this day still shoot for. A heel wrestler who can draw. Piper's Pit? Who can forget Piper's Pit? Piper was Lex Luthor to Hogan's Superman.

The only thing Yoko has over Piper is that he won the WWF Championship. What people forget is that he did not beat Hogan clean, freaking Harvey Whippleman burned Hogan with fire as Hogan was about to finish off Yoko. Yoko had a mediocre title run where he dominated jobbers but needed help with the main eventers. Piper was more successful without the title then Yoko was with it.

Piper wins this with the sleeper hold applied for about 3 or 4 minutes, and as soon a Yoko's arm falls for a 3rd time, the place erupts.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

And I'll tell you one more time, since you clearly saw the picture and didn't read anything; we're usin different measures of defining the greater wrestler. I like to look at the whole career; using primes is fine, and I'm not burying you for usin primes. Of course, there are some holes to the logic, and I'm just saying that, but what I am burying your decision making, for saying my way is wrong.

And yes, you are

Dude, this tournament has always been prime Wrestler A vs. prime Wrestler B, you don't take their entire careers into question, if you did that for every argument then the results would be the same every year. That's how the tournament has always been built. If it was over an entire career Piper would clean sweep Yoko without question (or at least I hope he would). For this tournament purpose its prime vs. prime, that's how it is, that's how it has always been. It's not just my opinion it is how the tournament is built.

KB said that a good argument is Piper never got pinned by Hogan (note that this happened in his prime). Why don't you start with that?

 

[Con T.]

Dude, this tournament has always been prime Wrestler A vs. prime Wrestler B, you don't take their entire careers into question, if you did that for every argument then the results would be the same every year. That's how the tournament has always been built. If it was over an entire career Piper would clean sweep Yoko without question (or at least I hope he would). For this tournament purpose its prime vs. prime, that's how it is, that's how it has always been. It's not just my opinion it is how the tournament is built.

KB said that a good argument is Piper never got pinned by Hogan (note that this happened in his prime). Why don't you start with that?

I see absolutely nothing saying I have to use anything with primes. As a matter of fact, the whole thing I've heard about this tournament is that I get to use the argument I want. And that argument includes everything a wrestler has done for the business. Because let's face it, if we used primes, we'd have the same results every year, too. And it would probably be a much shittier final four of Goldberg, Kane, and the like.

Now, in his prime? Piper went toe to toe with Andre and got his victories, he got his victories against Orndorff, JYD, and as you astutely pointed out, Hogan never beat him. But Piper's career is measured in the mark he left in wrestling, and it's much more than anything Yokozuna did. Hell, even Yoko's dominant run, his prime as you call it, he resorted to the same cheating and screwy finishes to retain his belt. Again, perfectly fine for Flair, but not fine for a guy I'm supposed to believe is a dominant force.

I'm sorry, I can't forget the 700 lb schlub who needed a forklift to get out of the ring when Vader broke his leg. It's part of his legacy in wrestling. If this tournament is really about finding the greatest wrestler ever, you have to take the bad with the good. And while Yokozuna had a run with the belt, for the majority of his career, he wasn't this dominant monster. He was an overweight, underachieving performer, who passed away while Roddy Piper was still working matches.

And I'm sorry, I can't vote that over perhaps the best heel in the history of wrestling

 

[Tastycles]

Occam's Razor Ramon has made a good argument. I disagree, but I'm not going to go through it blow for blow, because I don't care enough about the outcome of this match, and because I support Yokozuna about 51%, or something like that.

I'm voting Yokozuna, and my reason is pretty simple. Piper was much better at his job, but more often than not, that job was losing. Hogan and Bret Hart owe a shitload to Piper, but fundamentally, he lost to them when it mattered.

Yokozuna was a poor champion, but in that run he managed to beat, by hook or crook, people like Bret Hart, Lex Luger etc. The more I think about it, the less my conviction is, but it just sits right with me that Yokozuna would win, I think fundamentally it comes down to the fact that despite the fact he always won in a bullshit manner, there was a time when he was unequivocally the biggest name in the company, as depressing as that is, and I don't think the same is true of Piper. A vote for Piper is by no means silly, and next year, next week or tomorrow I may have gone the other way, but take this as a wholly half hearted vote for Yokozuna.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

I see absolutely nothing saying I have to use anything with primes. As a matter of fact, the whole thing I've heard about this tournament is that I get to use the argument I want. And that argument includes everything a wrestler has done for the business. Because let's face it, if we used primes, we'd have the same results every year, too. And it would probably be a much shittier final four of Goldberg, Kane, and the like.

Now, in his prime? Piper went toe to toe with Andre and got his victories, he got his victories against Orndorff, JYD, and as you astutely pointed out, Hogan never beat him. But Piper's career is measured in the mark he left in wrestling, and it's much more than anything Yokozuna did. Hell, even Yoko's dominant run, his prime as you call it, he resorted to the same cheating and screwy finishes to retain his belt. Again, perfectly fine for Flair, but not fine for a guy I'm supposed to believe is a dominant force.

I'm sorry, I can't forget the 700 lb schlub who needed a forklift to get out of the ring when Vader broke his leg. It's part of his legacy in wrestling. If this tournament is really about finding the greatest wrestler ever, you have to take the bad with the good. And while Yokozuna had a run with the belt, for the majority of his career, he wasn't this dominant monster. He was an overweight, underachieving performer, who passed away while Roddy Piper was still working matches.

And I'm sorry, I can't vote that over perhaps the best heel in the history of wrestling

I only say that because that's why I've been told and read numerous times by the people who made this tournament, just passing along what I've been told. Actually I've seen the guys who made this tournament point out numerous times it Prime vs. Prime. One of the things about voting in prime is because a lot of times the match itself dictates who wins. I remember CM Punk winning (or came very close to winning) against Andre in a Ladder match last year for example.

I really don't care who you vote for dude, it doesn't mean shit to me and I'm not against Piper beating Yokozuna. I don't think it would happen, its not who I voted for but its a matter of opinion.

I will say something though when I hear guys like Adonis compared to Yokozuna, I will say something when you say he wasn't dominant when he was. I think you put way too much emphasis on how someone won rather then if they won or not, I think taking a match like Starrcade '96 where both guys were broken down and couldn't wrestle a coherent match is a bad argument but hey that's me.

Now Piper never got pinned against Hogan but he did often beat Piper in matches. Also whether Yoko needed a fireball or not is irrelevant that he ended Hulkamania in the WWE and was given that honor. I'm just saying he was picked to get that over guys like Bret Hart and The Undertaker. If we are going to look at their down points too, I can point out matches like any match that Piper wrestled from 98 on, having 1 abortion of a match after another.

Also the reason you go prime vs. prime is because its a 1 fall match. If it was career vs. career then we would have a 58 (I think that's his age now) Piper vs. a dead guy. Its a dream tournament with dream matches, therefore you take a guy at his best vs. another guy at his best. What kind of match is Piper vs. a dead guy?