WWE Fastlane: WWE Universal Championship - Kevin Owens (c) VS Goldberg

Discussion in 'The Wrestling Archives' started by Jack-Hammer, Feb 6, 2017.

  1. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    That's your opinion and you have the right to it, but I fell that the type of opinion that a mark would have and don't want to see long term and is focus too much on the now and not on the future.

    Owens getting squashed because of jericho's interference made owens look stronger in the long run because the way he destroyed zayn the following night made him look like a angry top level heel and that the first time in a long time that owens hasn't look like a main event heel.

    If he just got squashed without the Jericho interference at would be with you 100% in saying that gettig squashed with no offense hurt Owens but because jericho interfere made it in sort that owens didn't look bad while getting squashed.

    Also, by reading some of your responds, I get the feeling that your one of thoses reigns haters and can see that others got main event push in wwe and it's not because ince like somebody that a match is set up the way it his.
    The fact is from the latest research, on the current roster if you look only at the guys the aren't part timers, reigns is no.2 in merchandise sell behind cena and way in front of everybody else so why wouldn't vince try to capitalize on this. He is the ceo of a puboicly traded company and it's all about making money if you're a ceo of a company so why should he back up guys that aren't making money?

    The point is, you guys need to stop and see the bigger picture and see how the stories are involving instead of just focusing on the performers. Really, if you stop and take a look at the story that what told in that match, you would see that the way this match was set up made total sense for all parties involve, but that just me, a wrestling fan of 30 years looking at the whole story being told instead of just how it made the performer look at that particular moment.

    Again we have different opinion on this and I respect that but we just illustrated the different between a wrestling fan and a sports entertainment fan which is that the wrestling fan doesn't care about storytelling, they just care about the performance inside the ring and how it made the performers look. A sports entertainment fan care more about the story being told and less about the performance. If the result made sense to advance the story then I'm o.k with it.
     
    #51
  2. ShinChan

    ShinChan Gone. For. Good.

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    What's a mark? I don't know
    what's a mark? I do focus more on future though. And you don't build future by making Goldberg squash potential main eventers. Because he isn't the future. Kevin Owens might be.

    How do you look strong when you get squashed? Jericho didn't interfere. He just appeared. You imply that his appearance itself made Owens look strong?

    Nopes. That wasn't the first time. It was at his debut. Even more when Festival Of Friendship happened. The badass Owens that cut a damn good promo next week after Festival Of Friendship.

    Interference? Really? Or rather just an appearance. Owens looked bad. Damn bad. 22 seconds don't make look someone good while that particular someone is on the losing end.

    :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

    Thanks for cracking a joke. So, if someone doesn't agree with you, you start playing blame game? Well I won't play it. It only shows how you think.

    And I hate Roman Reigns? He ain't worth my hate. And probably never will be. But his booking? It's atrocious and if you think otherwise then more power to you. Thanks for the compliment.

    I would like to know if Roman Reigns will sell even half of the merchandise when he's getting squashed by Brock or Goldberg? He sells because he has a Superman booking and he's talented. He's never squashed. Don't expect Owens to make you money when you make him get squashed. Did Roman Reigns start selling the merchandise in his debut year or two? No. Vince booked him strong and sometimes too strong. You don't sell without a strong booking/backup.

    I do know that Jericho's appearance distracted Owens. But he was squashed. Atleast let him get some offense. Even a superkick would be good. But Goldberg gets hurt if someone can even attack him, right?

    Opinions are respected by me as well.

    Oh another comparison. Have you followed Wyatt's angle with Orton? Is it wrestling or sports entertainment? I love this angle. Now you can know what type of a fan I'm. Good try though.

    It's ridiculous how you start blame game instead of discussing whatever you can. You have no answers to multiple points I made and then you blame that I'm a Reigns hater. That says a lot. Continue to avoid the clear facts. I'm waiting for some more accusations. I have no problem with you judging me.
     
    #52
  3. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    That'S simple, by telling a story of how mad he is at jericho for making him look like a total idiot because he got distracted, that wrestling 101 build.

    Again just look at my answer to point number to get your answer on this, you are so focus on the fact that Owens got squashed that you can see how him getting squashed because of the distraction that was the return of jericho actually help both feud and help Owens become a bigger badass heel in the process.

    But did he or didn't he cut one heel of a better promo on last week's raw after Jericho cost him to get squashed by Goldberg? The focus wasn'T on how long the match was after fastlane, it was on the fact that Jericho cost Owens the championship.

    How exactly did he looked bad really? explain that to me because i'm really out of touch with how the current wrestling fans think. I though that it made for a heel of a good follow up to the story that they wanted to tell with jericho and owens. Owens put Jericho on the shelf for a couple of weeks after the beat down he gave him at the festival of friendship, jericho returns at fastlane and cost Owens the title, they have a great promo on raw the following night that not focus on the fact that he lost so quickly, everybody wins in that situation in my opinion but that's just my opinion.



    What blame game was i playing exactly, i was just assuming that based on all your comment that you made in previous post, sorry if i made a mistake and your right, the last 2 year of booking for roman until i would say when he came back from his suspension was atrocious, now i actually like what they are doing with him.

    Again you can't really compare Owens to reigns, Reigns is a babyface/tweener, it's normal that he would sale more merchandise then owen even if got squash once and a while. Owens will always sell less because outside the hardcore fans that buy heel merchandise because we respect what he'S done in the past, not alot of kids will got out and buy stuff to support the one guy they hate the most on the roster. Again, that something i really don'T get with some fans and it'S not me playing the blame game or anything, it'S just something that it don'T get, why is it that sometimes you get so fixated on a result of a match and how bad it make somebody look? Really, i'm sure we are the only ones that are worried about this stuff and i'm sure that if any of us would meet Kevin Owens and ask him if losing the title in that fashion made him look weak, i'm pretty sure he would have the same reaction that i've got about this.



    Again did you follow both the jericho/owens feud and the lesnar/goldberg feud? Lesnar is supposed to be this badass conquerer that can go through anybody, he the guy that beat the streak at mania, that destroy both cena and orton at different edition of summerslam. Then gets squashed by goldberg at survivor series because he took him lightly. They face off in the rumble match and same thing happens lesnar gets destroyed by goldberg, so in the fans eyes, goldberg his the new super destroyer and they want to see Lesnar try to get his revenge on goldberg and conquered him. So clearly, fans want Lesnar to be the first one to gets some offense on goldberg, right. So how does it look to fans of this feud when somebody that's half the size of lesnar is able to get some offense on goldberg. It makes Lesnar look like nothing at the end and all the build up for this feud goes out the window. So you needed to get this squashed in since you big money program for mania is goldberg vs Lesnar and you wanted to put the title on one of them going into mania so you needed a way to a) have goldberg gets the belt via squashed match to not jeopardize the build up to his feud and b) advance the jericho/owens feud in the process by having jericho so up and distract owens, that way even if Owens got squashed, nobody outside of a small group of fans will even remember that Owens got squashed and you can tell the story of Owens being mad because Jericho made him look like a total idiot and cost him the universal title, it's a win-win proposition.

    Again, sorry it's me just assuming based on what was written in your previous comment and you're obsession with this how bad owens looked because he got squashed thing. Again sorry if i was out of line on this. As for the wyatt angle, i actually like it a lot not as much as the goldberg/lesnar and jericho/ owens stuff because after fastlane and last week's raw, they got me hooked on what will happens next with those feud and the orton/wyatt feud kinda took a break this week since Wyatt wasn'T even on the show but all and all, i think they have a lot of strong feud going into mania this year.



    Again sorry if it made it seem like i was playing the blame game, that wasn't my intention at all. The thing is that we are kinda both guilty of not really answering each others points on this matter, i think it'S the first time that we really just read each others post and answered everything point by point instead of just jumping to conclusion based on some stuff the the other wrote. I think we can have difference of opinion on some stuff especially this point because let'S face it, if you ask most wrestling fans right now, i bet that most of them don't even remember that Owens got squash because JEricho and owens did such a great job at making that part of their story that most fans have just accepted that this was just a way for jericho to get his revenge on Owens for the beatdown at the festival of friendship which was the point of this all angle in the first place.

    Like i wrote before, in any other situation, i Owens wasn'T in a feud with JEricho and Goldberg wasn'T in a feud with lesnar, i would agree with you that it made Owens look really bad in the end, but sadly in this scenario, it really didn'T hurt him at all. But that's just my opinion and from what i've heard from the fan reaction that owens got on raw, i would say that the chicago fans agrees with me because Owens came out of this as one of the biggest heel on the roster after that match.

    So i would love to continue this discussion with in this respecful matter instead of what we've been doing, it's always more fun when you do this that way.
     
    #53
  4. ShinChan

    ShinChan Gone. For. Good.

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    I know that he got distracted. And that's a positive for Owens.

    I disagree. He became a badass one after turning on Jericho. The Festival Of Friendship did it all.

    Of course. Why would he himself acknowledge that he was squashed? Another thing I would've liked if Kevin Owens turned on Jericho after losing the Universal Title. Then the badass Owens wouldn't be squashed. That would save his credibility.

    See the main problem is that Kevin Owens became a badass heel after Festival Of Friendship. And then he got squashed. Sure, Jericho distracted but i don't think that it was enough for a squash. If it would've been the Owens before Festival Of Friendship, then I might have understood. But this new badass Owens?

    You made a very wrong assumption then. If I hated Roman Reigns, I wouldn't treat him as a talented wrestler. Him getting a clean win over Braun Strowman was ridiculous. The Roman Reigns I love is the unhinged one. Remember when he attacked Triple H after a match? That Roman Reigns is the best one.

    My point wasn't to compare Owens and Reigns. I know that their alignment differs. If you wana take alignment in it, then okay. Take Dean Ambrose. Will he sell as much merchandise he sells if he's squashed? Main point was if you could sell while getting squashed. Not even hardcore fans will buy your merchandise if you're getting squashed. I'm no expert on body language but the body language of Owens did seem down at Fastlane, atleast to me. That says a lot.

    I did, proudly.

    I did, sadly.

    Kevin Owens is half the size of Brock Lesnar? That's ridiculously wrong. If it would've been Jericho, I would have tolerated it. But a badass Owens? Nope.

    Opinions vary.
    Is majority always right? I don't think that it's always right. I see that Owens shouldn't have been squashed after his badass persona came out.

    I know that Owens did get some heel heat after destroying Zayn. But it's going to take some time to make believe that Owens is a badass and wasn't squashed.
    Bring it on, man.
     
    #54
  5. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    Love all your points but it seem like we are running in circle on this matter which is sad in a way. So let's just say that you have your opinion and I have my opinion and neither is wrong on this. If you have want to get stuck on a result of a match, it's your right and not going to argue about it.

    I'm more about how they advance the story of all the characters because this match wasn't a match it was more a segment to help advance the story of owens/jericho and lesnar/goldberg so I threated it as such so for me and it seem a lot of fans, the results didn't matter in this one because it help advance the story and everybody came out without a scratch in the end. But again, if you can't get pass a result of a match and think that the result is more important then telling a good story, that's your choice and I respect this.

    But I just one to ask one question and then I will let this thing die.

    So how does having kevin owens get some offense on goldberg, make any sense in advancing either the goldberg/lesnar feud or the jericho/owens feud because I never really got an answer to this question on previous post I made.

    In my mind, owens got outsmarted by jericho at fastlane and that was the right story to tell after the turn a the festival of frienship. But that's just my opinion.
     
    #55
  6. ShinChan

    ShinChan Gone. For. Good.

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    Sure, I'll answer it.

    Now, after Festival Of Friendship happened, Kevin Owens was no more a heel like he was along with Chris Jericho. He turned on Jericho and was a way better as well as aggressive heel. A badass heel, I think. The next week, he cut a damn good promo which showcased his aggressive persona rather than the comedy or whatever promos he had with Jericho. What did these segments do? Made Owens look like a killer heel.

    And then this so-called badass heel was squashed by Goldberg in 22 seconds albeit due to Jericho's appearance. He got no offense on Goldberg and was literally a stepping stone. That's where inconsistency is. No badass gets squashed even on someone else's appearance. If he would've got some offense on Goldberg, it would've lead to consistency of his new persona but sadly it didn't.

    Questions for you to answer: Brock Lesnar squashed Rollins and Ambrose. Was it right? Roman Reigns was feeded Braun Strowman clean at a B-Level PPV. Was it right?
     
    #56
  7. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    Yes for Rollins, yes for reigns, no for Ambrose. The Rollins one made sense because of his character at the time, he was a cowardly heel that needed help from the authority. Reigns made sense because strowman was booked to look strong in defeat plus he's doesn't have a main event program at mania, reigns does and he needed to look strong going into his match against taker.

    Ambrose, that's another story, i don't think Ambrose should have won this match but in that case, I think Ambrose should have gotten more offense in.

    But again, I think you're missing the point of what I'm talking about, my take is really that the way they set up Owens turns and his promos he did after, it was set up in a way that scream squash match at fastlane, because of the way he took Jericho as if he didn't matter, so Jericho outsmarted Owens by causing a distraction at the beginning. Sometimes, squash match are more then just squash match and if their are a reason for them, it doesn't hurt either performers. This was one of those cases in my opinion. I think that it didn't matter how much offense or lack of offense Owens got because they needed to tell a story and that's exactly what they did and it got me excited to see the fallout of this on raw which they again did a great job.

    Not everything that make a wrestler great is about the perfirmance, sometimes is about how they tell the Story and they did a great job in telling it on Sunday.
     
    #57
  8. ShinChan

    ShinChan Gone. For. Good.

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    I disagree to some extent.
    I strongly disagree.
    I wholeheartedly agree.
    I agree. But not to forget that he was the world champion. The World Champion. Now we have two but then it was one. What's good is that Rollins atleast got some offense against Brock Lesnar.
    I don't agree. You build Strowman for almost 6 months as an unstoppable monster and then sacrifice him to Reigns just to make him look strong against The Undertaker? Reigns didn't need that win. Whole build about Strowman was that he's unstoppable. Now is he?
    I didn't expect Ambrose to win either. But at least let him get him some offense against Brock Lesnar. It made Ambrose look like a loser.
    I agree that Jericho's appearance compensated Owens getting squashed by Goldberg. WWE did tell a story at Fastlane. But I would've liked it to benefit Owens in one way or another. Even a superkick to a monster like Goldberg would've done that.
    Storytelling is a must in every match or angle. And I think that it could've been better for Owens, yet it wasn't.
     
    #58
  9. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    So let go point by point here

    First your seth rollins point, he's the world champion so he should get some offense on Lesnar. Do you know who was also a world champion and got no offense on Lesnar the year prior, John Cena. So if cena can't get offense on Lesnar why would a chicken shit heel world champion need to get offense on a guy like lesnar. Sometimes you need to make some of this stuff feel real and that was one of those instance were it was needed to make it look real because in a real fight, Lesnar would murder somebody like rollins.

    For the strowman/reigns thing, I don't really see it as a sacrifice like you're mentioning it because he already lost on ppv to sami zayn and was made to look unstoppable throughout this feud and this match and reignns barely survive this match. If you look at how both guys we're booked going into this match, reigns needed this win more than strowman because reigns hasn't been booked strong for a long time and all the beating he took from strowmann didn't help matters as well, so he really needed a clean win.

    As for the main point of this discussion, I think that it would have been worst if owens would have had some offense on goldberg, but that's just my old school opinion talking here.

    If you remember owens promo after he turns on jericho, he said that he couldn't beat goldberg in a straight fight, that he would need to outlast him and to outsmart him, so if owens comes in and just try and do some offense on goldberg, bill as to pretty much no sold every moves that owens is doing which makes owens look bad.

    This was a way to get what they wanted for the big money match without hurting anybody, they use to do this all the time back in the day. Because let's face it, goldberg vs lesnar at mania for the universal title is the money match of the show and you can't really jeopardize this match by giving away the first guy to get offense on goldberg at what I like to call a saturday night main event type of event. This as to be lesnar and it as to be at mania.

    Plus when you look at this year's card, owens vs jericho is probably the fifth or sixth most important match on the card behind. Goldberg/lesnar, reigns/taker, hhh/rollins, styles/mcmahon and maybe even orton/wyatt so you can tell a story for this feud in that matter and nobody really will cares about how owens drop the belt anyway because you got to of the best storytellers in the business today telling one hell of a story.

    I might be the old school wrestling fans in me that make me see it that way, but I never think that the outcome of a match makes or break a performer if the right story is told in the case of owens and goldberg and even reigns and strowman, the right stories we're told and changing anything in it would have hurt to performers instead of helping them. But like I say, it's just the old school fan in me writing here. I've been a fan of wwe since wrestlemania 3 so I guess that's why I don't see wrestling the same way that the more current fans are seeing it.
     
    #59
  10. ShinChan

    ShinChan Gone. For. Good.

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    Sure.
    I already answered it. Quoting myself below:
    Also, John Cena did get offense on Brock Lesnar at Summerslam. I guess that you forgot it.

    Was that a clean win for Sami Zayn? Or he just survived the onslaught of Braun Strowman for 10 minutes? Roman Reigns hasn't been booked strong for a long time? Damn. That's wrong. He just eliminated The Undertaker from Royal Rumble. That's strong or weak booking?

    I disagree. And I don't know what type of opinion is mine.
    Atleast, He could say that he attacked him. What did he originally do? Nothing.
    Money match? A trilogy where one side has already won two times. Already seen twice. Might be for others but not for me.

    Wyatt/Orton is first for me. Nobody cares? Lol. I care about it a lot. It's much more interesting than Goldberg/Lesnar, Reigns/Undertaker, Styles/Shane and HHH/Rollins.
    Outcome of a match is significant. Just like the end of a story.
     
    #60
  11. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    Let's put a bow on this whole discussion, I think I as this opinion on thw whole thing because I don't take wrestling or a wrestling show as a real competition but more like a t.v show or movie so I don't see winning and losing the same way as fans that take wrestling as a competition.

    For me the owens squash told a great story and made me want to see were the story was going just like the reigns victory over strowman, I wanted to see what hapenned next. I don't care about how many star a match get or how long the match is or even how it makes the performers look. All I cares about is that the performers tells a great story and get me hooked on this story which the owens squashed did.

    But that's me, not you, if you cares about how a performer look in win or defeat, that's your choice and it was fun to discuss this with you but I see that we have 2 completly take on this and I don't think we are ever going to agree on anything so my as well stop it there and stop wasting our time.
     
    #61
  12. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    Let's put a bow on this whole conversation because it's really going nowhere.

    I see wrestling as a tv show or movie, at the end, the bad guy will always gets what he deserve and the good guy will get the last laugh. That's how I see wrestling, I don't care about the competition aspect of the thing or length or if this was a 5 star match or not, I just cares aout the story being told and if they hook me to see what's going to happened next

    So for me, owens getting squashed was great story telling and made me want to see how owens would respond to what jericho did to him. I was the perfect way to move to the next step of the story me and by squashing owens the way thy did, they got me interested in this feud more that if owens would have gotten some offense on goldberg, but again that me. Same goes with reigns, because to me reigns needed to conquered the monster that he wasn't able to beat before he goes on to wrestle undertaker. I t was he classic good guy survive the bad guy and found a way to win this is the type of basic storytelling that I love, but again that's me

    In the end, that's just my take about all of this, I've seen this type of booking for so long now that I accepted it and everytime I see it, it bring me back to the early days of wwe when you didn't need all those complicated story and making sure that everybody looked good while telling a story. All you needed was a good guy and a bad guy and during the story, the Bad guy would get what's coming to him just like the movies or tv show. I see wrestling like how a casual fan see wrestling and sometimes I gets me in trouble with hardcore wrestling fans, but it also makes for one hell of an interested discussion.
     
    #62
  13. JoeMallard

    JoeMallard Getting Noticed By Management

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    I don't know about you, but I think Owens looks way better without the title than he ever did with it.
     
    #63
  14. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    i'm with you on that and it's not a knock on Owens at all, it's just they way they booked him the same way they booked every championship run he had.
     
    #64

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