WWE: Briefcase on a Pole Match, Kurt Angle vs. the Great Muta

[klunderbunker]

This is indeed a very interesting matchup. Muta I would think is the faster of the two, but Angle is stronger. As for people that say Muta wouldn't be able to get up to the top of the poll with a bad ankle, of course he would. Muta's ankle has been hurt let's say. He gets to one foot, hops to the ropes, uses the ropes to support his weight, gets to the corner the pole is in, uses his knee to balance himself as he climbs the ropes like Ric Flair did countless times, and climbs the poll with one leg and his arms. While difficult, it's not impossible. What would be impossible in that case though is doing it with Angle being conscious. Barring Angle being tied to the post somewhere, if Muta's ankle is hurt, he's pretty much finished. However, I can't see that happening. Muta's myst has put down a lot of people, and I think Angle is another vicitm of that. Going with Muta, but it's a war.

 

[gd]

I'm going to have to go with Angle here. Bascially a lot of the Muta supporters are saying the words like "dirty", "violent", "athletic" and "mist".

Who say's that Angle can't be dirty and violent? He is one crazy son of a bitch and in his prime was a very intimidating and physical wrestler, so I'm sure he would be able to go just as hard as Muta. Also, who says that Angle isn't athletic enough to match up with Muta and climb the pool. The man won a gold medal and is not slouch moving around the ring.

As far as the mist argument, I'm just sick of it. If Muta hits the mist the automatically wins the match? Muta usually doesn't hit the mist until late in the match so he might be too injured or tired to capitilize. Furhermore, the mist is nothing compared to the Ankle Lock. If Angle locks it in, Muta may be down for a long time and hobbled for the rest of the match, unable to climb.

In the end, Angle is just a much better overall wrestler than Muta and should go over here.

 

[Shocky]

A match up between two people that I absolutely love to death as performers, and a match taht I would love to see and pay hard money to watch.

Angle is about as sound technically in the ring as they come, but Muta's in ring psych is about as good as it comes in the business, if not top 3 that I have ever watched. It simply comes down to who makes the first mistake in this match. Muta is a cold calculating bastard, while Kurt Angle (while a damn good strategist) is often times very hot headed, and lets his temper get the bst of him.

Now the Anklelock argument of Kurt Breaks Muta's angle, and angle wins is pretty dumb. I can't remember any time where Kurt broke someones ankle. He can wear the ankle down like no other, but let's not get over dramatic with the, Snapping Ankle argument.

If muta gets to the top rope, he's certainly not in the clear. We have seen plenty of times where Angle pops up out of nowhere, and then destroys his opponent with the Olympic Slam or superplex from the top.

My vote is a toss up at this point. Both men are awesome, and both men are damn smart in that ring. I do feel that all it takes is for one mist blast, and this match could be over, but Kurt Angle is just as resourceful as Muta in my opinion. Angle has to be. He's a legit wrestler in a sport where the American Version is based on giant charismatic talentless muscle men parading around like jackasses. Kurt Angle has carved out a nice niche for himself in the business.

God my heads going to explode picking this match.

 

[Red Flash]

My favorite match-up in the tournament till now, i'm sure it would be an amazing contest. But, in the end, Muta would emerge victorious, since the gimmick largely beneficts him here. I'll start addressing the principal arguments made in favor of Angle.

"Angle is used to stipulations, since he fights for TNA" - Well, Muta wrestled the major part of his career in Japan, where the crazy gimmicks would made TNA feels ashamed. If someone has the advantage on this point, it have to be the great one.

"Angle is a better technician, he would outwrestle Muta and break his ankle" - The first part os this statement is true, you can't overpower Kurt as far as technical ability goes. But Muta didn't become the legend that he is by just defeating inferior competition, he defeated all kinds of wrestlers, including the portrayed as technical machines. That being said, pole matches aren't about grapples and holds, they are all about cunning, slyness and strategy, characteristics from whose Muta made a career of. On top of that, Muta most notorious physical trait is his flexibility, if Angle really go for his joints he will have a really, really hard work ahead of him, and we all know that he isn't exactly a very patient guy.

Now to the match itself. What's Angle greatest weakness? He is a very irascible guy. And what Muta does best? He can go under people skin like no one else. It's a explosive combination, Angle would lose control in a matter of minutes, and if you already watched a Muta match, you'll know that Kurt would be doomed from this point on. Then, when you start considering that pole matches require focus and concentration on the objective, you'll realize that the Great Muta is the only viable option here. I can already see Angle with a red anger face, thirst for blood, running in Muta direction just for him to slide to next to the ropes for the tenth time. The guy would go crazy.

Then we have the argument that make Muta detractors rolls their eyes: the asian mist. It can't be ignored here cuz it's extremely convenient in this match. If what i said above wasn't enough to convince you, just take in consideration that one spit is what separetes Muta from the briefcase. It could happen in the very beginning of the match or it could happen later. An irated Angle would easily fall for it, that's for sure.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Now the Anklelock argument of Kurt Breaks Muta's angle, and angle wins is pretty dumb. I can't remember any time where Kurt broke someones ankle. He can wear the ankle down like no other, but let's not get over dramatic with the, Snapping Ankle argument.

Randy Orton. Shit, he even made The Undertaker limp, and he doesn't sell shit. He didn't even sell for Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania. In an environment where Angle's grapevine Ankle Lock is impossible to escape from - you can't tap out and you can't break the hold by getting to the ropes - I think it's perfectly feasible that Angle would break Muta's ankle.

My vote is a toss up at this point. Both men are awesome, and both men are damn smart in that ring. I do feel that all it takes is for one mist blast, and this match could be over, but Kurt Angle is just as resourceful as Muta in my opinion.

He is perfectly resourceful to... just punch him in the throat, Kurt! He spits that shit into the air! I've seen it done! Punch him in the throat! Shit, European uppercut if you must!

And yes, the argument that Kurt would be so angry he'd just start running into stuff is silly.

 

[SavageTaker]

My vote is on Kurt Angle. There is no doubt in my mind that Angle vs Muta would be an awesome match, and that Muta will force Angle to his limits.

What I see in this match is that there is no time limit, so Angle can waist all of the time he wants on wearing down Muta. He will wear down Muta enough that when he gets to the top rope he is going to secure the win.

The Ankle Lock is a move that he will go back to time and time again. If you escape from it, that's OK he will continue the match but will eventually catch you again and lock in the Ankle Lock. He doesn't care if Muta is tapping out, he will keep the lock on, he doesn't care if Muta make a hole through the ring from tapping out so much, he will keep that lock on until he makes sure that his opponent will not get up therefore securing a win for him.

Now the mist, a move that people say it will keep Angle down for enough time and Muta will be able to climb the top rope, get the briefcase, and move on to the next round. Like mentioned by Sam, Angle just needs to hit the European uppercut or hit Muta in the throat and he will make sure that the mist does not come into play in this match.

My Vote is on Angle for Now.

 

[Tastycles]

Right, I haven't decided completely, but will have donw by the conclusion of this post, but there's some poor arguments going around here on both sides.

Firstly, if you wear a mask, you're hardly going to be covering your eyes which is the point of the mist after all. So, suffocate yourself, or face the mist.

Secondly, far more intelligent submission wrestlers than Angle, e.g. Bret Hart, have lost matches that involve climbing, despite the fact that they should be able to ground their opponents, Bret Hart for example. Equally, Ken Shamrock, who uses the ankle lock too remember, couldn't beat Sabu in a ladder match.

Has Kurt Angle actually been in a pole match? I'm not sure. The argument for Angle appears to be that he has somehow picked up on them by osmosis. Not sure about that one.

Muta is certainly more veratile than Angle, but versatility is useless in the gimmick, but maybe it can help in the actual match.

Angle is a brilliant wrestler, but I don't know if he has the speed to counter the mist before it is spat. The thing is, is the Ankle lock incapacitates one foot, but Billy Gunn's appearance in either the 98 or 99 Royal Rumble to know that you can still hop quickly if you can't wrestle following an Ankle lock (Shamrock again there). If you can move, you can stop someone climbing the turnbuckle. Hoever, if your blind you can't, so I think I'm going to go for Muta, but it could go either way, I reckon.

 

[ZEUS]

Now the mist, a move that people say it will keep Angle down for enough time and Muta will be able to climb the top rope, get the briefcase, and move on to the next round. Like mentioned by Sam, Angle just needs to hit the European uppercut or hit Muta in the throat and he will make sure that the mist does not come into play in this match.

Yes, hitting Muta in the throat would stop the mist. But, if that was so easy, it would happen all the time. It doesn't. Often, Muta waits until his opponent is already worn down and not expecting the mist, or distracted by something else and not paying attention. Angle puts himself in these types of situations in almost every match. Scenario: Angle hits a belly to belly suplex, taking down Muta. Seeing that he has the advantage, and running on adrenaline, Angle does his typical pull down his tight straps thing, freaks out intensly, and then goes to lock on the Ankle Lock. But, he has given Muta time to recover, and as Angle grabs the foot, Muta turns over, and blasts the blue mist. Angle is unconscious, Muta wins.

Of course, that isn't necessarily how the match would go, but to say that the mist absolutely will not work because Angle will see it coming is just wrong. Muta can hit it at any time, from any place. Angle would not see it coming, and even if he dodged one or two attempts, he would likely not avoid the mist altogether.

 

[LigerBomb]

As it stands I'll be voting for Muta here. Personally I believe that Muta would hobble to the briefcase and Angle would follow quick with a hop to the top rope prepared to deliver an Angle Slam or Super Belly2Belly, and it's then that Muta uses the Asian Mist knowing full well Angle will try to charge in like a bull, and scouting the moment accordingly will take advantage of Angle's predictability. Basically I believe Muta would simply outsmart Kurt by appearing to place himself in a vulnerable situation to lull Kurt into a false sense of superiority in order to win.

 

[ErictheEnt]

Going with Muta.

Not that he can't, but he doesn't have to pin Kurt Angle or make him submit to beat him. Pinning or submitting primed Kurt Angle is a HELL of a lot easier said than done.

 

[ZEUS]

Vote Muta. As an all around performer, he is just as good as Angle, if not better. Angle holds a slight edge in mat wrestling, but in every other way, Muta is just as good, if not better. And don't use his Olympic medal as an argument for Angle, it didn't really help him outwrestle Benoit, so it obviously makes little difference to his ability as a PROFESSIONAL wrestler. Muta takes Angle in speed, agility, resiliency, resourcefulness, ability to bend the rules and I would even say submission wrestling, as Angle really only has his Ankle locks to use, wheras Muta has a number of submissions that could win him a match. They match up fairly evenly with move set, which is different, but similarly effective, and strength. Muta is the better suited wrestler for this match.

VOTE MUTA

 

[Uncle Sam]

Firstly, if you wear a mask, you're hardly going to be covering your eyes which is the point of the mist after all. So, suffocate yourself, or face the mist.

...the fuck? Who came up with Kurt wearing a mask? Like I said, all he has to do is hit Muta hard in the throat with a punch or a European Uppercut.

Secondly, far more intelligent submission wrestlers than Angle, e.g. Bret Hart, have lost matches that involve climbing, despite the fact that they should be able to ground their opponents, Bret Hart for example. Equally, Ken Shamrock, who uses the ankle lock too remember, couldn't beat Sabu in a ladder match.

Ken Shamrock's shortcomings aren't Kurt Angle's shortcomings. Tito Ortiz made him look like a bitch, too. More agile and versatile men than Muta have epically failed at matches which involve climbing, but you don't see me holding that against him.

Has Kurt Angle actually been in a pole match? I'm not sure. The argument for Angle appears to be that he has somehow picked up on them by osmosis. Not sure about that one.

It's quite possible. What is for sure is he won the King of the Mountain, a match ten times as difficult and complex as the pole match. That was hardly in his prime either - the TNA years.

Muta is certainly more veratile than Angle, but versatility is useless in the gimmick, but maybe it can help in the actual match.

Well, as long as you're not going for the hardcore argument. There's not time for dilly dallying in a pole match. To make it hardcore, Muta would have to dilly dally - i.e. actually collect weapons. Kurt would casually stroll over and take the briefcase down by the time Muta got back in the ring.

 

[NSL]

And, I said he always knows where he is. Kurt knows where the pole is and it's not hard to figure that Muta would make a break for it after the mist. If he really can't see, as you seem to think, then he can just dart for the pole and suplex Muta off of it. Oh, he can hear Muta too.

Angle gets thrown off his game, pretty quickly. He gets a hot head, and then flies off the handle, fighting like a madman. We've all seen it, don't argue it.

Here's a scenario. Muta sprays the mist in Angle's face. Angle (wearing goggles, for the sake of argument), skips wiping the mist, and runs straight at the corner, trying to stop Muta, before he can climb the ropes. Muta, however, has moved to the side, and takes Angle down with a drop toehold, smashing his face into the mat.

Muta uses Angle like a ramp, and grabs the briefcase.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

Angle gets thrown off his game, pretty quickly. He gets a hot head, and then flies off the handle, fighting like a madman. We've all seen it, don't argue it.

Here's a scenario. Muta sprays the mist in Angle's face. Angle (wearing goggles, for the sake of argument), skips wiping the mist, and runs straight at the corner, trying to stop Muta, before he can climb the ropes. Muta, however, has moved to the side, and takes Angle down with a drop toehold, smashing his face into the mat.

Muta uses Angle like a ramp, and grabs the briefcase.

Really? Because I see him stay pretty focused in big matches.

Why would he skip wiping the mist? It takes less than a second. Muta can't climb and get the case in a second. Angle is smarter than that.

No, he doesn't.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Angle gets thrown off his game, pretty quickly. He gets a hot head, and then flies off the handle, fighting like a madman. We've all seen it, don't argue it.

"Fighting like a madman"? Seriously? I appreciate that it may be hyperbole, but still. So what?

Besides, I've never seen Angle just go "Ugh! What the fuck!?" and run at someone aimlessly. Jay Lethal knocked his sunglasses off once. Needless to say, Angle didn't start "fighting like a madman".

Here's a scenario. Muta sprays the mist in Angle's face. Angle (wearing goggles, for the sake of argument), skips wiping the mist, and runs straight at the corner, trying to stop Muta, before he can climb the ropes. Muta, however, has moved to the side, and takes Angle down with a drop toehold, smashing his face into the mat.

Muta uses Angle like a ramp, and grabs the briefcase.

Yeah, not gonna happen. Angle, in his prime, was cold and calculated. Watch his match with Undertaker for that. Not once does he lose his cool, and he dominates most of the match. Shit, he even makes The Undertaker sell an ankle injury. Now that takes perseverance.

What I find odd is people who'd normally vote Angle voting for Muta because it's a pole match. It's a fucking pole match, not a loser wins match.

 

[Shadowmancer]

Why the fuck would Angle come to the ring in goggles? noone has come to the ring in goggles against either Muta or against Taijiri. The mist is a factor only in that it is an aspect of Kayfabe that is in place, who said that the mist spat is green. Green Mist Stings the eyes other mists do other jobs. Then there is also the documented cases of the mist being used twice in a match.

Muta is quicker and more agile than Angle, he is also sneaky. combine in that he is a great wrestler in his own right, look at the number of belts he is holding in that picture right now. You have to beat people to win those belts. That is 4-5 belts. At once. He had to beat some good wrestlers to get them.

The mist will play an important role in this match because while Angle may have faced Tajiri in the past and Beaten him. Muta is so much better than Tajiri that the application of the mist and what type of mist will be a major factor in the outcome of the match going to Muta, because the application of the mist will be when Muta has a small amount of a way to get to the corner, he will spit the mist in Angles face and eyes, and make a quick climb up to get it. and the after retrieving the briefcase will moonsault onto Angle.

 

[gd]

I still the mist is way overrated in this match. First of all, Muta just doesn't come out and hit the mist right away. I comes later in the match, but I question how long he can actually last against Angle, even with sneaky tactics. I think Angle is that much better of a wrestler.

The Ankle Lock is a much more effective weapon than the mist. When Angle locks this on, it was serioulsy hurt and maybe even break Muta's ankle. It will certainly hinder him in moving around the ring and climbing the pole. It would also take away the slight speed/altheticism advantage that he may have.

I just can't see Muta beating Angle here. If the top argument for him is The Mist, I guess he just doesn't have that much to offer.

 

[ZEUS]

I still the mist is way overrated in this match. First of all, Muta just doesn't come out and hit the mist right away. I comes later in the match, but I question how long he can actually last against Angle, even with sneaky tactics. I think Angle is that much better of a wrestler.

The Ankle Lock is a much more effective weapon than the mist. When Angle locks this on, it was serioulsy hurt and maybe even break Muta's ankle. It will certainly hinder him in moving around the ring and climbing the pole. It would also take away the slight speed/altheticism advantage that he may have.

I just can't see Muta beating Angle here. If the top argument for him is The Mist, I guess he just doesn't have that much to offer.

Have you not read the entire thread? Or more importantly, have you never watched Muta wrestle? Muta is one of the best ever, no questions asked. Angle really doesn't have an edge anywhere, aside from a SMALL edge in submissions/mat wrestling. Everything else goes to Muta. That's how good Muta is. The mist, while being the most talked about part of this thread, is not all Muta brings, that is simply one of his finishers that would likely instantly win the match for him. I don't think Angle could beat Muta in a regular 1 on 1 match, he couldn't beat him in a hardcore match, and he definetely wouldn't beat him in a match where speed and intellect are so miportant.

And the mist argument is more sound than "breaking Muta's ankle" that has been tossed around here. The only ankles I ever remember Angle breaking are Scotty 2 Hotty and the samoan dancer chick that did Joe's pre match dance. Hardly the quality of opposition of a Great Muta. The Asian mist is the perfect way to incapacitate someone to let them get the case, but its hardly the only weapon Muta has.

 

[gd]

I know that this match is over and it was a tie, but consider this a headstart for next round.

Have you not read the entire thread?

I have

Or more importantly, have you never watched Muta wrestle?

Yes, I have

Muta is one of the best ever, no questions asked.

I have a few questions. Why is he one of the best ever, what makes him so great? From all I have seen from Muta, he really hasn't been overly impressive.

Angle really doesn't have an edge anywhere,

Really? I would strongle disagree/

aside from a SMALL edge in submissions/mat wrestling.

A small edge? The man won a gold medal. He was the BEST mat wreslter in the entire world. Muta is far from it, I think that Angle has a much greater edge than you would think

Everything else goes to Muta. That's how good Muta is.

Define "everything"

The mist, while being the most talked about part of this thread, is not all Muta brings, that is simply one of his finishers that would likely instantly win the match for him.

Considering it's the most talked about makes it seem pretty damn important. I don't think that it is that great that it instantly wins the match. Do his opponents explode on impact or something?

I don't think Angle could beat Muta in a regular 1 on 1 match,

I positive he could.

he couldn't beat him in a hardcore match,

I think it would be very close, could go either way.

and he definetely wouldn't beat him in a match where speed and intellect are so miportant.

Angle also has enough speed and intellect to hang with Muta

And the mist argument is more sound than "breaking Muta's ankle" that has been tossed around here.

I'm not sure about that.

The only ankles I ever remember Angle breaking are Scotty 2 Hotty and the samoan dancer chick that did Joe's pre match dance.

Ever heard of Randy Orton? He's the WWE Champion.

Hardly the quality of opposition of a Great Muta.

I think Orton is comparable to Muta, and Angle doesn't necessarily have to break the ankle, only injure it.

The Asian mist is the perfect way to incapacitate someone to let them get the case, but its hardly the only weapon Muta has

.

We'll see next round.

 

[ZEUS]

Okay, you can't use Angle's amateur wrestling in a pro wrestling survey. Its a different sport entirely. It didn't help him much against Benoit, and Benoit and Muta I would match up similarly in submissions and mat skills.

And to answer your question about the Asian Mist, he has three versions that I am aware of. The green mist, which blinds you, would basically end the match. Its hard to defend yourself when you can't bloody well see. The red mist, which burns you, would probably leave Angle able to fight, but extremely weakend, and the blue mist, which knocks you out cold. End of match right there.

 

[Shadowmancer]

This match didn't need a pin to get it to work. That is why the whole mist argument was valid. Having your opponent incapacitated for long enough that you can get the briefcase is the name of the game. So It is a valid argument within the context of this match so those ignoring the rules for a match need to actually read said rules of match and apply what a wrestler has in their arsenal to the match. What does Angle have that can incapacitate an opponent to the point where getting the briefcase is easy? The Ankle Lock, but Muta is one of the quickest wrestlers around as well as one of the most agile. So you can't lock in what you can't catch. It is a matter of Pros and cons within a given match type, and here is where Kurt Angle doesn't have as many pros as he does cons within the context of the match.

 

[ZEUS]

So in this case of a tie, does that mean that both guys move on, or are both eliminated? If botha re eliminated, that is a shame, but I am actually glad if both do move on, as Angle, Muta and Bret hart are the three best in this pool I believe. I didn't really want to see either eliminated, as they are both great workers, but I still stand by my argument that Muta would win in this scenario.

 

[Shadowmancer]

They both move on, only in the first two rounds do the ties result in a double elimination. Because Triple Threats are already gimmicky in nature.