Winner's Bracket Debate #8: Talon -vs- Mitch Hennessey

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2012' started by D-Man, Mar 25, 2012.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Currently, which is the more irrelevant TNA title; Knockouts Tag Titles or the Television Championship?



    This is a first round, winner's bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

    Talon won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

    The maximum amount of posts for each debater in this round is three. Once this criteria is met, (or the allotted time of the debate runs out,) the debate will end and judging will commence.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Thursday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Saturday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck to the participants.
     
    #1
  2. The Talon

    The Talon Occasional Pre-Show

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    I'll let Mitch go first.
     
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  3. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Since Talon didn't read the directions properly and in order to keep things moving, we'll go with Talon's first choice in allowing Mitch to debate first and choose the topic.

    Mitch, it's your turn. Choose the topic and feel free to commence with your opening post. Talon will have 24 hours from that time to make his first reply.
     
    #3
  4. Mitch Henessey

    Mitch Henessey Deploy the cow-catcher......
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    Thanks. That clears things up, and I will choose the TNA Knockouts Tag Titles as the more irrelevant championship in TNA.

    The TNA Knockout Tag Titles have been a worthless sideshow experiment for a few years, and nothing has changed today.

    The idea of introducing tag titles into TNA's women's division might've sounded like an innovative and intriguing concept at first, but the Knockouts Tag Titles have just become fancy hardware for the champions, who hold them. Seriously, have the TNA Knockouts Tag Champions provided any high quality matches or special moments? I think not. The tenure for the TNA Knockouts Tag Team Titles have been filled with forgettable feuds, lackluster matches, and none of the champions have had any sort of memorable reign. Eric Young and ODB aren't going to change anything, and they sure as hell won't bring any prestige to these championships.

    August 7, 2011- TNA Hardcore Justice

    Why is this date important? Hardcore Justice 2011 featured the last pay per view match (Sarita & Rosita VS Tessmacher & Tara) for any Knockouts Tag Team Champions. That's right. No pay per view matches since August of last year. Not one. TNA doesn't care enough to take the time to build a respectable feud, that could develop into a pay per view match, so why should I care about the titles or the champions?

    The TNA Knockout Tag Titles will always be in the shadow of the Knockouts Championship

    As I said before, the TNA Knockouts Tag Titles have been a worthless sideshow experiment. The TNA Knockouts Championship IS the holy grail in TNA's women's division. It is the reason why these women wrestle, and they all want the honor of being the top female on the roster, and winning this championship is the only surefire way of achieving this goal. The Knockouts Championship is the ultimate prize for bragging rights, but the same thing can't be said about the tag titles. The Knockouts Tag Tiles might have a nice design, but these fancy hunks of jewelery don't do anything for the Knockouts, who win them. These titles won't take them to the next level, and the tag titles will never escape the shadow of the Knockouts Championship.

    Eric Young and ODB are the TNA Knockout Tag Team Champions.....

    I've touched on this few times already, but EY and ODB as champions has proved to be the embarrassing low point for these titles. What seems more interesting as of right now? Gail Kim's lengthy title reign, or the goofy and over the top championship married couple? I don't know you about you, but I'll take Gail Kim's title reign over ODB and EY any day. With Kim, you're always wondering, who can take her down? Who will finally take the strap off of her, and knock her off the mountain top? With Kim, I know I can expect the more entertaining matches, and her feuds can always create some intriguing possibilities.

    But when it comes to EY and ODB, what do I really have to look forward to? More whacky comedy antics? Silly matches? No thanks. TNA hasn't put any effort into building prestige for these titles, and now they're using them to fuel this horrendous comedy angle? Oh, and most importantly....Eric Young is a man. Yeah, I get it. ODB and Eric have fallen in love, but am I really suppose to ignore the female/male championship duo? These titles are supposed to be exclusive to FEMALES ONLY, and the inter-gender championship run really doesn't make any sense at all, when you stop and think about it.

    Bringing tag titles into TNA's women's division might've sounded like a good idea at first, but the reigns of TNA Knockouts Tag Champions haven't been memorable at all. They've just become fancy hunks of jewelery for the title holders, and the eccentric duo of EY and ODB won't do anything for these titles.They will just fall into the same box of other forgettable TNA Knockouts Tag Team Champions, when their reign ends.
     
    #4
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  5. The Talon

    The Talon Occasional Pre-Show

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    Here's why I say the Television championship is the most irrelevant title in TNA.


    Started off great, but faded away

    On October 23rd, 2008, something unique happened. TNA was in the mist of it's big company-wide storyline of the Main Event Mafia vs the TNA Frontline. And after weeks of carrying a mysterious silver briefcase, Booker T unveiled his plan to get an edge on the Frontline, the TNA Legends championship. This was shown as another way of the MEM saying that they were better than the Frontline. They had more experience, more prestige, & the Legends Championship was their way of proving that. But on March 19th, 2009, AJ Styles was able to climb the moutaintop and win the championship. Not only did this put over AJ Styles, but it also put over the championship as as title that could lift the young guns of TNA to the status of Main Eventer.

    Global Affairs

    But after winning the Legends championship, the title fell from AJ & into the hands of Eric Young. Young renamed it the TNA Global championship & stated that it wouldn't be defended against American wrestlers on American soil. But his first defense at at -you guessed it- The Impact Zone in Orlando against Hamada. Eventually he defended it on international soil, but he lost it against Rob Terry in Wales. Then, AJ Styles won it again from Terry & renamed it the TNA TV championship.

    Here & Now

    Eventually, Eric Young (who won it again) then lost it to Robbie E. Lemme say that again. Eric Young lost the championship to Robbie E., a shallow parody of the clowns on Jersey Shore & a man that currently lives in the shadow of Zack friggin' Ryder. Now, let me tell you the last four TNA TV Champions. Devon, Robbie E., Eric Young, & Gunner. This used to be a championship that put over the best & brightest of TNA, guys like AJ Styles & Douglas Williams. Now, it's in the hands of the Marty Jennetty of TNA. At least there's an actually storyline going on for the KO Tag Team Championship. We can't even say that for the TV Championship, a title that in the past 4 years has gone to being filled to the brim with potential, into being a complete joke of a championship.
     
    #5
  6. Mitch Henessey

    Mitch Henessey Deploy the cow-catcher......
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    Eh, Taylor Wilde and Sarita became the first ever TNA Knockouts Tag Team Champions on September 20, 2009. They won the titles at No Surrender that year, and the Knockout Tag Titles title didn't exist during this time. Besides providing a brief history lesson, I'm not sure what the point of this paragraph was. You can't compare and contrast both titles during this time, because the Knockouts Tag Team Championships didn't exist during AJ and Booker's reigns.

    And yeah, the Legends title was a big deal at the time, and Main Event Mafia VS The Frontline was a huge feud. This was TNA's major storyline for months, and the Legends Championship was inserted into a major feud between two stables.

    It was a prestigious Championship, that was held by decorated veterans, and only the cream of the crop deserved to be champion, right? That's what I took from this paragraph, and your first paragraph in this debate does a great job of supporting my argument, but it really doesn't do anything for you.

    You're trying to provide a timeline for the downfall of the TV Championship. I get that. But this paragraph just gives me some information about the Global Championship and how it came to be. I don't see anything that would explain the importance of the Knockouts Tag Titles, so I don't have a response for this.

    Robbie might be a cheap and watered down version of a Jersey Shore knockoff, but TNA did treat his title reign with some respect.

    For the most part (Genesis 2012 would be the only omission), Robbie. E's title defenses did make it to pay per view, but the same thing can't be said about Gail Kim and Madison Rayne (the Knockouts Tag Champions during Robbie's run as champ). Rayne and Kim didn't have one match on pay per view during their entire reign. Why should a championship be worthy of attention, if it doesn't receive any sort of pay per view time?

    This title did lose some prestige over the years, but the TNA TV title can still produce some decent feuds, and the matches are usually worth watching. There's a reason to care about the TV Championship, but the same thing can't be said about the Knockouts Championships.

    Devon has slightly improved in the ring, and he's in better physical condition than before. Also, his matches can be watchable. They aren't horrendous, so Devon could provide a worthwhile run with the strap.

    How does a wedding for Eric Young and ODB help the Knockouts Tag Titles? How can the wedding help elevate the titles? The wedding won't do anything for the Tag Titles. These belts will probably have a nice spot as decorations during the wedding, but ODB and Eric aren't doing anything to help bring prestige to these titles. Their weird and whacky relationship is the primary focus, not the titles.

    Again, Devon's reign just began, and I'm sure we'll see a rematch with Robbie. E at some point.

    Mid-carders are chasing a mid-card title. There's nothing wrong with that. An inter-gender couple wins a pair of championships, that are supposed to be exclusive to women only, and let's just forget about the Championships, because ODB and Eric's eccentric relationship is more important. The Knockouts Tag Titles have become the bigger joke, easily.
     
    #6
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  7. The Talon

    The Talon Occasional Pre-Show

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    I was trying to detail how the TV Championship originally started out & eventually got to this point, not trying to compare it the KO's championship beginning.

    Actually, it does. It shows the the TNA TV Title used to have so much potential for greatness, only to have TNA completely disregard it in the past few years to the point were it's practically worthless.


    Well, again, just trying to show how the TV Title has gone from then to now.


    Yes, because getting 3-minute throwaway matches while his manager got more heat than him sure was "respectful".

    If anything, this is more of bad booking decisions rather than either titles being irrelevant.


    No, it can't. At the end of the day, no match or feud for the TV Title would entertain you, me, or pretty much anyone else. To put it in better terms, imagine if Big Show won the Intercontinental Championship, & then had a feud with Jinder Mahal over it. Yeah, someone may possibly enjoy it, but there's a damn good chance that it would just be boring as hell to watch. That's why the TV Championship is irrelevant. It's simply boring as hell to watch matches for it, & that just shouldn't happen.



    Devon has slightly improved in the ring, and he's in better physical condition than before. Also, his matches can be watchable. They aren't horrendous, so Devon could provide a worthwhile run with the strap.


    That's actually quite the opposite. Now, as bad a storyline it may be, the reason why ODB & Eric Young won the titles is because despite being an odd couple, they learned how to successfully act like a team & win the championships. That puts prestige on the KO's Tag Team Championship as a title that can only be won by two people that actually work as a professional team. For most likely the next couple of years, the TNA TV Title will be in exactly the same spot as it was before, withering away in the midcard.


    Devon is average at best as a singles wrestler, & Robbie E. is barely at the point of being better than an FCW guy. This is a memorable feud in the making. :rolleyes:


    Here's the thing, TNA's actually put effort into that. They probably said "Hey, let's do a storyline about a inter-gender team winning the KO's Tag Team Championships & then have a feud about them, followed with the team being wed." TNA then probably spent the next few weeks/months planning it out. When it comes to the TNA TV, Eric Bischoff most likely just went "Hey, Devon's not doing anything, eh, let's have him win the TV Title from that Jersey Shore guy." That is why the TV Title is more irrelevant. The KO's championship isn't irrelevant, it's in a bad storyline that takes up a decent amount of tv time, TNA simply puts no effort or interest to put the TV Title in any kind of actual memorable storyline, good or bad.
     
    #7
  8. Mitch Henessey

    Mitch Henessey Deploy the cow-catcher......
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    Fair enough. I can see where you're coming from here.

    TNA TV Title matches still make it to pay per view, but the same thing can't be said about the Knockouts Tag Titles. At least TNA takes the time to build TV Title feuds, that will make a pay per view card, but the Knockouts Tag Titles haven't seen a pay per view match since August of last year? I'm sorry, but the Knockouts Tag Team Titles have just become fancy jewelery pieces for their champions, and the weird team of ODB and Young is just laughable.


    Yep. I got it. You're giving a timeline breakdown of the title's history.

    Again, Robbie's matches did make it to pay per view. Were they amazing matches? No. No at all. But a good amount of Robbie's title defenses still made it to pay per view.

    So? How do bad booking decisions effect the relevancy of the Knockouts Tag Titles? That's a lame excuse, Talon. PLENTY of championships in other promotions have suffered bad booking decisions in the past, but those titles survived the embarrassing moments, and they STILL managed to maintain relevancy:

    [YOUTUBE]RDDhfUR3yOA[/YOUTUBE]

    Angelina Love won the Knockouts Championship during a freakin' lockbox segment. She opened a mystery box, and she instantly became the top female champion in TNA. This was an incredibly stupid idea, but is the Knockouts Championship irrelevant now a days? Nope.

    [YOUTUBE]Z2AV0Vd--Dw[/YOUTUBE]

    This has to be one of the goofiest title matches ever, but has the Intercontinental Championship become irrelevant? Did the Good Housekeeping match kill its credibility? No, and the IC title is still one of the most prestigious titles in all of pro wrestling.

    Championships might suffer some miserable slumps every now and then, but they shouldn't just fade away into obscurity. This has happened to the Knockouts Tag Titles, and it's about time they receive the scrap pile treatment. It's long overdue.

    Boring matches don't equal irrelevancy for championships.

    John Cena and R-Truth had to have one of the most underwhelming main event WWE Championships matches at Capitol Punishment last year. Is the WWE Championship currently irrelevant? Nope. Not at all. Jeff Hardy VS Matt Morgan for the TNA World Title at Turning Point 2010 was one the most horribly boring main events I've ever seen, but is the TNA World Heavyweight Championship irrelevant now a days? No. Ezekiel Jackson VS Wade Barrett at Capitol Punishment was another dull match, but the IC Championship is STILL relevant.

    Again, championships might suffer slumps, every match won't be a five star classic, and you can't set the bar so high for every title defense. It's just unrealistic.

    Well, Young and ODB are perfect match for each other, and they are team. But how can Eric Young help the women's division in TNA? In order to bring prestige to these titles, Young has to hold up his end of the bargain, and what can he actually do? His goofy antics during their matches are a poor attempt at trying to provide some laughs, not prestige. So how can he actually help the Knockouts division? Wrestle a series of foolish one on one matches with the other Knockouts? Please. Young could go the Santina Marella route (it would still be ridiculous, but seeing Young dress up as a woman, and perform in drag wouldn't surprise me, especially when you consider the batshit crazy mindset of his character), but this wouldn't fool anyone. Eric Young is a man, and he has become a Women's Champion. That doesn't make sense at all.

    The TV Title isn't this glorious championship, but it hasn't withered away, and as I've said many times before, this title actually makes the card for pay per view shows.

    Probably true, but can you think of any memorable moments for the Knockouts Tag Titles and their most recent champions? I know I can't.

    Then TNA completely pissed away any sort of credibility these titles might have by giving them to an inter-gender team, because for reasons I've already explained, this just can't work.

    Pure speculation.

    Currently, the Knockouts Tag Team Championships aren't the main focus. Although, ODB and Eric's love story IS the main focus. The storyline is ridiculous, and they can't have any serious plans for their titles that are supposed to be exclusive to women, because an inter-gender team is parading around as champions.

    As far as memorable storylines for the TV Title, yeah you, do have a point. Currently, the TV title hasn't produced any five star matches, but can you name ONE memorable Knockouts Tag Team Championship match? I can't think of any Tag Team Title feuds, because the reigns of the Knockouts Champions have been worthless and forgettable.

    My Final Thoughts: Talon, I want you to take a look at this video, and you can go ahead fast forward to 3:37, because that's where the "big announcement" begins:



    The creation of the TNA Knockouts Tag Titles were announced on this night. During this backstage segment, Tara, a six time Women's Champion, talks about "making history." You can hear the excitement in her voice, and the same thing can be said about Lauren and the other Knockouts. The Knockout Tag Titles were going to be special. This was an innovative and groundbreaking idea, that would change the Knockouts division. This is what TNA wanted us to believe.

    But what eventually happened? The Knockouts Titles took a huge dive fast. The Knockouts Tag Titles faded away into obscurity, and the champions can't even make a pay per view for match anymore. And what do we have know? Eric Young and ODB as champions? Eric Young can't help the women's division in any way, and the ODB/Young Tag Title run will be remembered as one those awful pro wrestling storylines five years from now. This probably won't reach the levels of the Katie Vick/HHH/Kane storyline, or Mae Young/Mark Henry, but ODB and Eric will find a place in pro wrestling's worst storylines ever. Eric Young, a man, can't help bring prestige to a women's title, for obvious reasons.

    And the last pay per view match for a Knockouts Tag Team Championship match didn't provide any great memories......

    [YOUTUBE]BTFrK_LDOxw[/YOUTUBE]

    Wow. A below average promo from the champions, and things didn't get any better in the ring, because the match was boring and uninteresting. "Asstastic." That's how Taz summarizes this match. Ass. That's what I should I remember about the last TNA Knockouts Tag Team Championship match on pay per view?? Something I can see on any regular episode of IW/TNA, WITHOUT any wrestling at all? Also, I can easily find plenty of "asstastic" pics of the Knockouts on the internet, and again, I don't need to watch any wrestling for this.
     
    #8
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  9. The Talon

    The Talon Occasional Pre-Show

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    Again, not exactly. The KO's tag team championship is currently in an actual storyline. One that has gotten people talking about for a while & one that looks like will keep going on for the next few months. You can't say that for the TV Championship. It's in practically no storyline or in an effort to have a memorable storyline other than "Devon's TV Champ now. Got that?"


    The matches were nothing more than filler. Something to fill up time while the "big boys" were preparing for X-Division & World Championship matches. Would it really even matter if the KO's tag team championships had PPV matches if they were treated as nothing more than take up time like the TV Championship has? I'd rather watch a 20-min match for the Intercontinental Championship on Smackdown, than a 3-min match for it on Over The Limit or Vengeance or whatever.

    That's my point. The TV Championship has faded into obscurity. The KO's Tag Team Championship was in a slump for a while, but it's currently in a big storyline that recieves large amounts of TV time. The TV Championship isn't Therefore, it's in obscurity a.k.a. irrelevancy.



    If a champion can not put on a great match that get a reaction from a crowd, then what's the point of them being a champion? What does that say about the title, if they can pull off entertaining matches, yet they still somehow won the championship in the first. EVERY match for a championship should at least strive to be the best it can be. Will it always be? Of course not, but if they're not every going to at least try, then what the hell is the point?



    Why would Eric Young face the KO's one-on-one if it's a tag-team championship? Meaning he would face other KO teams as a team with his partner ODB. So, this paragraph is completely unnecessary as it's describing as if Eric was the singles KO champion, not the tag team champion.

    It's gone from being in feud with Booker T & AJ Styles, to a feud with Devon & Robbie E. Nope, don't see any withering there. :rollseyes: Also, the WWE Tag Team Championship makes it on PPV's, but I sure as hell wouldn't call it relevant. Would you honestly?


    As bad as the storyline is right now, it's still a memorable storyline. As of now, the TV Championship has no form of memorable storyline whatsoever.



    You just said that just because a championship is in a bad moment, doesn't mean it can't come back. Cody frikkin' Deaner was KO's Champion, yet I definitely wouldn't call it "irrelevant" as of now. The KO's tag team championship can still come back, the damage has already been done for the TV Championship.



    I want you to be honest, what do you think has taken more time & effort from TNA Creative. A storyline involving ODB & Eric Young winning the KO's Tag Team Championship, having character development stem from that, their TV wedding, & their eventual break-up & loss of the titles (& a possible heel turn from either one of them), or Devon winning the TV Championship in an extremely short match, with a subsequent rematch?


    The storyline of Eric & ODB's wedding couldn't happen with the KO's Tag Team Championship. The wedding is based entirely on the fact that winning the championship has taught them how to successfully cooperate as a team. The current matches & rematches could happen with any two TNA wrestlers, and it wouldn't change a bit. KO's Tag Team Championship = memorable storyline, TV Championship = not in one.

    As of now, the KO's Tag Championship IS in a memorable feud. Therefore, it's currently relevant. THE TV CHAMPIONSHIP ISN'T & HASN'T BEEN IN ONE FOR YEARS. Therefore, irrelevancy.

    You basically just did what you accused of before, giving a timeline of KO's Tag Championship from then to now. Pretty much the exact same thing happened to the TV Championship in the beginning of its run. AJ, Booker T, Jim Cornette & the announcers hyped it up as a championship that could bring TNA's young guns into that atmosphere of being a main eventer. But what eventually happened? I'll let you take a guess. Eric Young, Rob Terry, Robbie E., & Devon happened. The ODB/Eric Young is a bad storyline, but you just admitted that it's going to be memorably bad. As in, bad, but still relevant. There's nothing about that that could be said for the TV Championship. For years, it has been bland, uneventful, & nothing more than something to waste time with. That is how I would define irrelevancy.
     
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  10. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    This debate has concluded. Judging may begin.

    Thanks, guys.
     
    #10
  11. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity - I liked Talon's opener. It was what I ask for, but I feel that Mitch's was just better. Very concise throughout, and Mitch's conclusion certainly helped.

    Point - R.J. MacReady

    Punctuality - Talon was quicker throughout.

    Point - The Talon

    Informative - Videos to help your argument are great. Mitch did a great job with multiple videos in his final post. Use evidence to support your argument!

    Point - R.J. MacReady

    Persuasion - Mitch was overwhelming in this one though. Pounced on his prey and just tore through him. That's not so much to say Talon didn't do a solid job, but more that Mitch was just better.

    Points - R.J. MacReady

    Talon, you did a nice job with this. A lot better than I had originally anticipated at the start of this debate. Keep the solid work going forward.

    CH David scores this R.J. MacReady 4, The Talon 1.
     
    #11
  12. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Clarity: Decent breakdown's, but Mitch's was first, and Talon did manage to even mess up his choice. That's kinda a knock back from the start.

    Punctuality: Consistent and quciker was Talon (Yoda become I have?).

    Informative: The experienced deabter in Mitch wins this. He used video evidence to further his points, and made his arguments better than Talon's. This of course suggests that Mitch also takes...

    Persuasion: Again, Mitch's. Talon made some good points, but he just could not cope with the heavyweight it Mitch. Good showing though.

    FunKay Scores It: Mitch: 4, Talon: 1
     
    #12
  13. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    Clarity- I'll give it to Mitch. Talon's structure wasn't bad, but Mitch's was better.

    Point- Mitch

    Punctuation- Talon was faster.

    Point- Talon

    Informative- Talon wasn't bad here, but Mitch, ever the veteran, knew what it took and came heavy with the videos and whatnot. Good stuff.

    Point- Mitch

    Persuasion- This wasn't the runaway I thought it would be. Talon did make some very solid points, but Mitch bringing up the PPV match comparison is what drove it home for me. At least the TV Title is featured on PPV pretty regularly.

    Point- Mitch

    Nate score is Mitch 4, Talon 1.
     
    #13
  14. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Unfortunately, even if Talon gets a perfect score from SavageTaker, he cannot win this bracket. Therefore, R.J. MacReady (Mitch Hennessey) has clinched his defeat over Talon by a score of 12-3. He will move onto Winner's bracket #16 while Talon moves down to Loser's bracket #12.

    Good work.
     
    #14
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