Winner's Bracket Debate #7: deanandterry -vs- DirtyJose

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2012' started by D-Man, Mar 25, 2012.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Is Daniel Bryan's current World Heavyweight Championship run a success or bust?



    This is a first round, winner's bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

    deanandterry won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

    The maximum amount of posts for each debater in this round is three. Once this criteria is met, (or the allotted time of the debate runs out,) the debate will end and judging will commence.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Thursday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Saturday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck to the participants.
     
    #1
  2. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I'll go with Daniel Bryan's current title reign is a success.
     
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  3. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    I choose deanerandterry to make the first post. Let's rumble, bro.
     
    #3
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  4. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    In this opening post I'm going to tell you why Daniel Bryan's current title reign has been successful. There's an old saying that a wrestler is only as good as his dance partner and I think that's a good reason why Daniel Bryan has had a successful title reign. What do I mean when I say that? It's obvious the WWE has big plans for Sheamus and has had big plans for him for a long time.

    Sheamus won the Royal Rumble which is no small feat and out of all the wrestlers on the WWE they decided that Daniel Bryan was the person they wanted to put against Sheamus, for the title, at their biggest event of the year. They could have picked Orton who is a huge deal and Mark Henry, someone they pushed quite heavily throughout 2011 as the World Heavyweight champion, a person who helped raise the ratings in Smackdown throughout 2011. Mark Henry was a legitimate heel who would have been a great opponent for Sheamus at Wrestlemania but instead of going with Henry, a 15 year veteran of WWE they went with Daniel Bryan. Why? Because they probably think Sheamus going over Daniel Bryan at Wrestlemania will better help Sheamus get over in the long run. That says a lot about what the back office thinks about Daniel Bryan and the fact they have enough faith to put Daniel Bryan in that position speaks volumes about Daniel Bryan as World Champion.

    Since becoming World Heavyweight champion Daniel Bryan has grown not only as a performer but as an entertainer as well. He has become one of the best heels in WWE today playing the small guy who should have been defeated for the title but somehow, someway, snakes his way out of every situation he has been in to keep that World Title around his waist. In that sense he is like a new age Honky Tonk Man, someone who is often put in positions where you think there is no way he is gonna stay champion but somehow makes it out alive, and with the champion in tact. Much like they had great hopes in the Ultimate Warrior they have great hopes in Sheamus but Sheamus going over anyone isn't enough, he's got to go over someone who people want to see Sheamus beat, and they have to put him in the ring with someone that will put him over the right way, Daniel Bryan is that person.

    The mark of a great heel is someone who the majority of the fans want to see get beat and Daniel Bryan has become that person. Your average fan wants to see Sheamus beat Daniel Bryan and that speaks to the success he has had since becoming World Champion. Ultimately the quantity of a title reign doesn't speak to its success, the quality of the title reign is a much better measuring stick and Daniel Bryan has had a quality title reign and evolved greatly into a heel that people want to see get beat. Daniel Bryan may have only been champion 4 months but he has been nothing short of great in those 4 months.

    In conclusion Daniel Bryan has evolved into a great heel that people want to see get beat, has been chosen to go into Wrestlemania as champion against the Royal Rumble winner and in turn shown that Daniel Bryan has what it takes to be a successful world champion. Even if he is holding the title to lose to Sheamus at Wrestlemania, it doesn't diminish the fact that his title reign has in fact been a success. Sometimes your job is to ultimately help get someone else over but the back office thought out of all the people on the Smackdown roster (over heels like Henry, Christian and Barrett) that Daniel Bryan was the best option to do just that. If he wasn't successful as champion, he wouldn't be going into Wrestlemania as the champion.
     
    #4
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  5. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    Daniel Bryan's Current Championship Run Is A Bust

    Daniel Bryan's current Championship run is a failure because it was never meant to happen, and because it is not helping Daniel Bryan. It is an interim title run made long by circumstance and injury, and Bryan's role in it wasn't made to flatter him or help him get over. This, in turn, hasn't helped the prestige of the World Heavyweight Championship itself.

    The Man who should be Champion

    Mark Henry was in the middle of the biggest push of his career. He had been booked over some of the biggest and baddest guys around, and had just crushed top SD face Randy Orton. While onscreen he was booked with an ankle injury, in reality Henry had been diagnosed with a groin pull. With the injury looking serious, the choice was made to prematurely end Henry's Championship run.

    Henry's run was primed to go all the way to Wrestlemania. Not only was Henry's run one of the best he's ever had, it was some of the best content Smackdown had since moving to SyFy. WWE often tries to do a "monster heel" run, but this was one of the few times where it was working well and getting him over.

    Due to injuries, Henry was forced to take a backseat. He continued working through the injury, but not anywhere near the level required to sustain his relevance. The heat he had built up over the previous Summer and Fall were gone. There was a real chance to solidify Henry as one of the true legendary monster heels, and it was missed.

    A Placeholder Champion

    Most long time fans are familiar with the "Placeholder Champion". For one reason or another, the belt must be moved off the champion and one performer is chosen to hold it until it can be given to someone better prepared for it. While being chosen to fill in due to circumstance or injury is a good sign to the performer, as it shows that people upstairs find them reliable, it is often a choice made by who is most "expendable" in kayfabe and thus who it would be easier to move the belt off of later on.

    In the case of Mark Henry, Big Show was most involved with him via booking at that point. But choosing Big Show narrowed down the options available to move the belt to afterwards. A face at the time, Show going against the other faces like Sheamus or Orton would've come over as awkward at a time when things need to start ramping up for Wrestlemania season. This left Daniel Bryan as the most convenient choice as Placeholder Champion.

    As Smackdown's Money in the Bank contract holder Bryan could easily be booked as champion out of the blue. This meant abandoning the Wrestlemania promise, which hurt the cause of getting a face Daniel Bryan over. His subsequent booking as a heel champion hasn't done much to get him ahead; his core of supporters remain, but the potential was there to set him up to be so much bigger.

    Failure to launch

    Keeping in mind the crazy potential Henry vs Bryan had, take a look at what we got instead. The WHC, which during Henry's run was as relevant if not more so than it's brother the WWE Championship, was sunk down to PPV curtain jerking and constant DQ/Inconclusive finishes. A forced heel Bryan is running the same kind of path his old rival The Miz had, and will likely receive the same kind of backlash The Miz has in time. Henry's heat faded, and soon he was back to what he had always been.

    We're looking at getting a forgettable fight between Bryan and Sheamus at Wrestlemania this year, and Bryan's run as WHC has guaranteed that it will be rushed out early and that the Smackdown/WHC title scene is not nearly as important as the multiple non-title storylines running on Raw. There is no other way to explain it other than that Bryan's run as World Heavyweight Champion has been a bust, a benefit to almost no one, and has only served to damage the reputation of a title which was at it's best in recent times when it was given to him.

    If Sheamus beats Bryan for the title at Wrestlemania, it won't be Bryan helping put Sheamus over so much as it would be Sheamus being booked to help salvage the World Heavyweight Championship picture. If Bryan beats Sheamus, it will likely be via underhanded tactics, continuing a run which hasn't proved successful yet. How is that anything other than a failure?
     
    #5
  6. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I would argue that this statement is inaccurate. In July at Money in the Bank they decided to give Daniel Bryan the MITB briefcase and as of now EVERY Money In The Bank winner has used that briefcase to become champion. Because of this reason I would say it is very clear that Daniel Bryan was in fact meant to be champion or else he wouldn't have won the briefcase. Not only that after he won the briefcase he stated he would be cashing in the briefcase at Wrestlemania, another clue as to say he was meant to be in this position.

    Although its possible he wasn't meant to win the title when he did because of injuries on the Smackdown roster I feel the evidence would indicate he was still meant to either be going into Wrestlemania as champion, or he was meant to win the title at Wrestlemania and the Royal Rumble winner was gonna face the RAW champion (Chris Jericho possibly?).

    They planted the seeds for Daniel Bryan to be champion at Wrestlemania back in July/August, sounds like they most certainly had plans for him to be champ at wrestlings Super Bowl.


    Although its true Mark Henry looked primed to have a long run as champion it doesn't make it true. They could have went in plenty of other options besides Bryan going into Wrestlemania as champion:

    1) They could have made Wade Barrett, someone who was in a feud with Randy Orton champion at the Elimination Chamber. Remember Barrett didn't get injured until the next night and if he had won the title at EC then he wouldn't have been in the match for the #1 contender spot which he got injured in.

    2) They could have lightened up Henry's work schedule while he still was champion so he could heal up in time for Wrestlemania. They have done this with plenty of superstars while injured. Although a groin pull is a serious injury it shouldn't take 4-5 months to heal from.

    3) The WWE has plenty of credible heels who could have been champion such as The Miz (an already established champion who beat John Cena at Wrestlemania), Wade Barrett (already mentioned and someone who has been in multiple main event feuds), Cody Rhodes (someone who is IC champ and is primed to take that next step) or Alberto Del Rio now that he's back (someone who has main evented multiple PPV's and left Summerslam as champion, WWE's second biggest event of the year).

    The WWE however didn't choose any of these options, they decided to go with Daniel Bryan instead to defend the World Heavyweight title at their biggest event of the year. I would say the office has great faith in Daniel Bryan to put him in such a position over all those options listed.

    I would also like to point out that even if Daniel Bryan is champion because Henry is injured that in no way is a measuring stick for the success of his title reign. It doesn't matter how you get the title all that matters is what you do when you have it. Since becoming champion Daniel Bryan has grown greatly and has transformed into one of the best heels in WWE today. He has had numerous world title defenses and has always come out on top, even over the former dominant champion who is Mark Henry and the Big Show. Also he defeated 5 other guys in the Elimination Chamber. Daniel Bryan plays a great heel who you want to see lose the title because no matter what the situation is, he finds a way to hold onto his title. If people want to see Sheamus beat Daniel Bryan (which your average casual fan does), then Daniel Bryan has done his job and his title reign has been a success.

    There have been many times the WWE has went with a face vs. face main event at Wrestlemania. Hulk Hogan vs. The Ultimate Warrior and Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels are 2 perfect examples of this. They could have easily had a face vs. face title match and Sheamus beating the Big Show would have done a lot for Sheamus in the long run. Although a face vs. face title match is different its far from awkward.

    Also we don't know that Daniel Bryan was pushed aside for Sheamus. Its very possible the back office thought Daniel Bryan is better suited as a heel so they decided to instead go that route. Not only that initially it looked as if Big Show was gonna turn heel after TLC but instead they decided to go with Bryan as heel instead because he is a better fit and a better option to go into Wrestlemania as champion. Like I said before they had other options besides Daniel Bryan. They could have given him a month title reign and had him lose at Royal Rumble to Henry or Big Show like they did with Edge in '06.

    Daniel Bryan was the best option to face Sheamus at Wrestlemania, he was far from the only option.

    Sheamus will definitely benefit from defeating Bryan for the title at Wrestlemania. He's going into the biggest event of the year beating one of Smackdown's hottest heels in doing so, how is that not benefiting Sheamus?

    Also if Daniel Bryan does in fact win at Wrestlemania it proves my point even more that his title reign has been a success as he will be one of a handful of heels who leave Wrestlemania as champion, that is a great accolade to have on your resume.

    I agree Henry had a great title run but once again they went with Bryan instead of Henry to go into Wrestlemania as champion which would suggest there is more faith in Bryan to help get Sheamus, someone the WWE has been putting stock into since December '09 to that next level because Henry simply couldn't do it. Sheamus has beaten Henry handily over the last month numerous times so they aren't treating Henry as much of a threat to Sheamus because Henry has been jobbing for him in record time. As great as Henry's run was, it was at no time bigger than the WWE title.

    The WHC has always been pushed to the background because Smackdown is the B-Show on Friday nights. Edge opened last years Wrestlemania as WHC and I don't think there is any arguing that his title reign was a success, so why would Daniel Bryan's not be a success for being pushed to the background over matches such as the Rock vs. John Cena and HHH vs. Undertaker. No matter who the champ was and how successful their title reign was they were going to be pushed to the background anyways. Daniel Bryan may not be the #1 match on the card but he is in an important match, with the title on the line going against a heavily pushed face in Sheamus. If his title reign was a bust then he wouldn't be the guy holding the title at Wrestlemania when there are other viable options. The WWE would have pulled the plug early and given that spot to someone else if he was such a bad option as champion, especially going into Wrestlemania.
     
    #6
  7. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    The point is not that Bryan was never to be Champion; the point is that Bryan was to be Champion on different terms. The gimmick of Daniel Bryan would have been best served with the original plan of a Championship match at Wrestlemania. To break early and give him the title in light of Henry's injuries has forced them to ditch this ideal build for Bryan and instead give him a half-assed heel run.

    As I've mentioned before, being chosen at any time for whatever reason to carry a top belt is an honor. But that doesn't always mean big things for the man who carries it. Bryan was chosen as he was on the list of potential upcoming champions anyway and he was carrying the MitB briefcase, which just made the choice a no-brainer.

    Wade Barrett was meant to put Orton over. The guy needs lots of work and handing him the WHC going into Wrestlemania was just not an option. WWE had invested in the guy for the last year, and had nothing to show for it. Orton left injured in the middle of the their angle, and what did they do? Let Wade durdle around for a few weeks before Orton could come back and go over him.

    Henry was meant to run long. If you don't believe me, look at how long they still used him weekly after his injuries forced him out of serious contention for the title. WWE needed him because so many of their long term plans for the WHC and Smackdown revolved around him. Information on the injury reveals that it was much more serious than a simple groin pull, and the WWE felt that waiting it out with light booking of the then-dominant champion heading into Wrestlemania season was not what they wanted to do.

    Then there are your other suggestions. The Miz and Del Rio by this point were in the doghouse with Creative. Del Rio's run as a main event lead to some of the lowest PPV buys ever, and Miz was losing his status as one of McMahon's favorites. Cody Rhodes shows promise, but was tied up with the IC title. The point is that among all other options, moving Bryan to the WHC was done out of convenience. Why interrupt Cody's run as IC champ (which also shows signs of having planned out long ahead of time) when you have the MitB holder ready to swoop in?

    I think what you meant to say was that since becoming champion, Daniel Bryan has only been an afterthought in the WWE today. Whether due to the initial lack of planning or due to the WWE inability to properly utilize Bryan, the World Heavyweight Championship went stale. He's gone over Henry (former champion...and frequently "injured" on-screen by this point) and Show (former champion...for a few seconds, currently jobbing to Rhodes) after both had lost their steam. His defenses are typically boring DQ finishes.

    On top of this, before Bryan became World Heavyweight Champion Henry had helped lead the title to rival the popularity and exposure of the WWE Championship. The title was getting relevant and getting over. If anything, Bryan's run has sunk that momentum. After Hell in a Cell, people were talking about Henry and the WHC. Going into Wrestlemania, the title is on the back burner, watching as matches like Cena vs Rock, Jericho vs Punk, and Taker vs HHH are pushed as the main features of the show. If Bryan's run was successful, don't you think it'd be a heavier hyped part of the show?

    Daniel Bryan is not Hogan, Warrior, Hart, or HBK. I'd argue over whether Sheamus going over Show would have any affect on him at all, but the point is choosing Bryan was the logical option. MitB meant that he could slip into the scene easily without disrupting much (besides his own build) and that other plans (in the case of Show, the run with Cody) could continue as written. Bryan just provided the easiest path to carry the belt to Wrestlemania.

    But they've shown that they had plans for Show elsewhere (Rhodes) and Henry was still injured at this point, so giving the title back to him would have rendered the whole point of the switch moot. Granted, this was likely the plan if it looked like Henry could return in that capacity. There were other option, but the choice of Bryan just made the most sense.

    Henry was a hot heel for Smackdown. Bryan may be the show's top heel, but he's done little to interest people in it. Henry's matches at Hell in a Cell and Vengeance were well received and popular. The focal point of the build was his dominance. Bryan's PPV matches as champion are forgettable. The focal points of his build include a needless tie-in with a Diva. Sheamus could have gotten a much much better opponent for Wrestlemania, and a win at the big show will be remembered for being a title win at the show of the year, not for who his opponent was.

    As for Bryan winning? We need only look to The Miz to see how much that kind of win can do for you. Miz also went into Wrestlemania as champ and retained in a fashion similar to how Bryan has been booked in title defenses. Where is Miz now? In the doghouse, begging to get a match a Wrestlemania and jobbing on Raw. Again, does that sound like success?

    Sounds you are forgetting that Henry is injured. The whole point of giving the title to Bryan was to get it off Henry. Moving it back to him makes no sense at all. As for the title, I'd argue that it was in the spotlight more than the WWE Title was after Hell in a Cell. Henry's win topped off his big build in recent months and ended Orton's long reign as Smackdown biggest threat. On Raw, we had another poorly received Del Rio run building into another Cena title shot. CM Punk's rise was being cooled off with a lame angle involving HHH. For a time, the World Heavyweight Championship was the big dog in the house.

    As an option as champion, Bryan made the most sense. But the run hasn't been a success. Bryan is still only over with the people he was already over it, and is still getting lukewarm reactions from the rest. Compared to a Henry run to Wrestlemania, Bryan carries no heat and no momentum, just a string of cheap wins. Sheamus looks no more bad ass by going over him, even at Wrestlemania. Bryan has not been made to look like a threat, only a joke.

    I feel it's important to remember what Henry's run could have been so we can compare Bryan's run to what a successful run should be. Henry leading the charge into Wrestlemania, possibly into Bryan as face, would have topped off nearly a year of strong booking. A championship win there would have cemented Bryan as a star, or Henry as a legend. Instead, we get a sleeper of a match between Sheamus and Bryan, with no build, nothing at stake, and no momentum to hand over.
     
    #7
  8. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    As a face yes, the back office going with the original plan would have better served Bryan but I would say Daniel Bryan is a better heel than he is as a face, which is probably the reason they made him heel in the first place. Saying his run has been half assed is unfair to what Daniel Bryan has done. He has become the heel you love to hate, a dirty, underhanded heel who will will do whatever it takes to hold onto that title. He got quite a lot of heat when he let Big Show plow over AJ just to save his neck as well as just being a snake throughout most of his matches has made fans hate him.

    Even if he wasn't meant to become heel it still doesn't take away from the fact he took the ball and ran with it. Daniel Bryan has shown flexibility and diversity as a performer since his heel turn.

    First off they could very well have big plans for Daniel Bryan in the future, especially after his title reign has ended. Even if Daniel Bryan was made champion to lose it to Sheamus it hasn't nothing to do with if Daniel Bryan is a successful champion or not. Its not about the role you are given its about what you end up doing with that role and Daniel Bryan has done a lot with the role of a chicken shit heel, has made it work, has shown he has no shame and that translates into a successful heel run. If people want to see Daniel Bryan lose to Sheamus then he has been a success and I would say the WWE's core audience does not like Bryan, they like Sheamus and want Sheamus to beat Bryan for the title. If they don't like Bryan as a heel and want to see him lose then its a success as that's the role and job of his character.

    I would say Orton was there to put Barrett over not the other way around. Losing a feud and putting someone over are entirely different things. Barrett showing he can hang with Orton does a lot to elevate him in the fans eyes. Since storyline wise he put Orton out of commission it makes him hated by the young fans who love Orton and makes him a great challenger for Sheamus. Barrett would have been a fine choice as champion considering all he has done since he started in WWE.

    Whatever Henry's injury was is irrelevant, he has been on the show constantly since losing the title and they could have easily booked him into the main event at Wrestlemania going against Sheamus. Henry could have wrestled 2 matches from December to April, they could have kept him relevant on screen while he healed and he would have been ready to go. Henry didn't miss a lot of time therefore you can't use that injury as a logical argument. Henry could have easily won the title back at EC then faced Sheamus at Wrestlemania but that didn't happen.

    Both of these options were entirely possible routes WWE could have went and they decided to go with Daniel Bryan as well. If he fell so flat as a heel WWE wouldn't have put him in a title match at Wrestlemania. For all we know Daniel Bryan was meant to only hold the title until Royal Rumble but they decided to keep it on him because he was doing well as champion and as a heel. They want Daniel Bryan in that position not because he is the only logical choice.

    For the most part yes his title defenses were DQ finishes, because that's the character he plays. Much like the Honky Tonk Man one of the most successful IC champs ever Daniel Bryan is that same type of character, someone you don't believe should, or deserves to be champion but someone who finds a way to hold onto that belt at all costs. Daniel Bryan is a heel, he's not meant to come off as an honorable champion he is meant to come off as an undeserving champion that people want to see get beat. As a champion Daniel Bryan has accomplished what he was supposed to and that makes for a successful champion.

    Also, I don't feel it would be more heavily hyped because Smackdown is the B-Show, Wrestlemania 24 was the last time the World Heavyweight Title has been heavily hyped. Wrestlemania 25 Big Show, Edge and John Cena were fighting for the title, that didn't get heavily hyped and John Cena was in the match, their golden boy so why would this match get heavily hyped?


    I didn't compare Daniel Bryan to any of those guys, especially since I was talking about face vs. face main events. I just said that a face vs. face title match would be far from awkward and could very well have worked. Also going into Wrestlemania they never go with the easiest path, they go with their best path. Daniel Bryan may have been the easiest way to go but he was also the best way to go.

    Daniel Bryan and Mark Henry are complete contrasts in heels and are nothing alike from a characters standpoint. Henry is supposed to be dominant just like Bryan is supposed to be a snake. The diva tie in helped Daniel Bryan get over as a heel.

    When Daniel Bryan basically made Big Show plow over AJ it did a lot to help Daniel Bryan to get over as a heel. Not only that his promo the following Monday saying "how he appreciates AJ loves him" was a perfect segway to show what type of person Daniel Bryan is. My girlfriend is a casual fan and when she saw that promo she wanted to crawl through the TV screen and rip Daniel Bryan's head off for that just because of how much a douche bag Daniel Bryan was that Monday. The fact that my girlfriend, someone who doesn't care much for wrestling, a casual fan at best, and Daniel Bryan was able to get such an emotional response from her shows how well he has in fact done as a heel.


    Miz has a Wrestlemania match and even though he was in the dog house reports show his losing streak in part of a bigger story for Miz and they have big plans for him.

    The Miz was the top heel in The Rock's first match back in 7 years, if they are willing to put The Miz up against The Rock it shows the back office has plenty of faith in the guy.

    He was in a solid storyline with R-Truth and HHH back in October when he got fired. Yeah I would say The Miz definitely sounds like a success.

    Sure, The Miz was in the dog house but he has bounced back greatly since then. I would say he's not in the dog house anymore if they have big push planned for him.

    I have never once forgot Henry was injured, I'm just saying it would have been easy to keep the title on Henry, or give Daniel Bryan a 1-2 month title reign only for Henry to win it back before Wrestlemania as he is healed at this point. I'm not debating Henry was a successful champion but this debate isn't a comparison between Bryan and Henry its if Bryan's title reign is a success. How he got it is speculation and here say but here are facts:

    1) Daniel Bryan is still World Champion
    2) He is heading into Wrestlemania AS champion over other viable options.
    3) He has evolved greatly since becoming a heel

    Miz may have been in the dog house but this time last year he did in fact have a successful WWE title run and got to main event Wrestlemania. Just like the office showed much faith in Miz last year they are doing the same for Daniel Bryan this year. He wouldn't be champion right now and he wouldn't be in this position if the office didn't have faith in him as a heel or as a champion.

    Daniel Bryan has gotten over as a heel, look at my girlfriend example from above, she didn't even know who the guy was but it didn't take long for her to give a reaction to Daniel Bryan, if he can get a reaction like that it shows me he has the ability to grow great heat from the crowd, the night he gave that speech the crowd was ready to boo him out of the building, which is what he should be doing. There have been plenty of times Daniel Bryan has gotten major heat from the crowd. Cheap wins for a heel isn't a measuring stick of success for a heel title run, he's a heel, he should be getting cheap wins, that's what heels do to build heat. Bryan hasn't looked like a joke, he has looked like a snake who people want to see get stomped out by the face, its what his current role is and he has played it well.

    Daniel Bryan comes off as an undeserving champion because he is supposed to and the fact that he is able to basically cheap his way through title matches makes the people hate the fact he's champion even more, which in turn makes it all the more sweet when the face finally beats him for the title, because its what people wanted to see. Because he comes off undeserving is a perfect reason why he has been a success as champion.

    In order for a heel champion to be a success you need 2 things:

    1) Get heat from the crowd
    2) Have people want to see the face beat you for the title

    It's classic heel booking and because Daniel Bryan has been able to accomplish both of those things it makes him a successful World Champion, he has done his job plain and simple, how is doing your job not successful?

    In a sense the way Bryan has been booked is the same way Flair was booked as NWA Champion, A dastardly heel who people want to see lose, but finds a way to keep the title and people want to kill him for it, just like they wanted to kill Bryan for all the cheap victories he has had as World champion including his matches with Big Show (namely the match where he plowed over AJ), His cage match at Royal Rumble (where most of the time he just tried to get out of there) and his EC match (where he beat Santino Marella at the end of it but still got through many heavy hitters on the Smackdown Roster). Cheap victories as a heel doesn't hurt the heels, it helps the heels, it helps them build heat which is the point.

    Daniel Bryan is going into Wrestlemania as champion. He has taken his heel run and ran with it long and hard, in turn garnering a lot of heel heat because of all the stuff he did, namely with AJ, sometimes what is done outside the ring means more than what is done inside the ring. Lastly he has become a classic heel champion, someone people want to see lose for the title.

    The biggest thing that measures success is the reaction you get from the crowd and the reaction he got the night AJ got ran over and his promo the Monday after was heel heat and a reaction you often don't see these days in wrestling. Its very hard to make people hate you as a heel, but Daniel Bryan was able to accomplish that feat because of everything he did inside the ring, and outside the ring and for that I got to say his title reign has not only been successful, but overwhelmingly successful.
     
    #8
  9. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    Bryan was made heel because his potential as a face was tarnished with the promise to hold MitB until Wrestlemania then cashing in early on Big Show. They spent the better part of the last year and a half pushing Bryan as a face with help from a heel Michael Cole. All the signs add up to bigger and better things in store for Bryan before being given the WHC, and so I just can't see calling the current run a success.

    What I'm getting out of you has less to do with Bryan as champion being a success and more to do with Bryan as a heel being effective. Can the guy play a heel? Yes. Has his run as top heel champion been a success? Well, are we talking about the WHC match at Wrestlemania with the same excitement of Jericho vs Punk or Rock vs Cena? No, we aren't. Bryan is indeed a talented performer, but the situation under which he's become the champion going into Wrestlemania is less than ideal. Bryan as WHC is going into Wrestlemania with the same fanfare (or even less) than Rhodes vs Big Show for the IC title. That's not a success.

    Orton and Barrett was set up to keep buzz on Orton while he was away from the WHC picture and to rehabilitate Barrett after a year of misses. Either way you look at it, he was in no position to be World Heavyweight Champion.

    This kind of booking would have sunk the momentum Henry had going. He wasn't a cheap heel. He was a monster. And monsters need to feed. A few throwaway matches here and there from December to April 1st is a joke. Henry can show up and do a few spots, but he couldn't perform up to the standard he had set over the summer, which necessitated the change to Bryan.

    Bryan is still champion because of a lack of options. Barrett still needed to finish his run with Orton. By your logic, if the WWE felt Wade was ready then, why make him come up short to Santino of all people at Elimination Chamber? Rhodes was busy elsewhere. Show and Henry were by EC damaged goods. If they knew by the Royal Rumble that Sheamus was their man for Wrestlemania, it just makes the most sense to let Bryan ride it out in attempt to gather enough heat to hopefully help push the match. So far, he hasn't done that. Again, it's a match on par with an IC title match, likely to be buried very low on the match order come April 1st. That's not a success.

    Again, yes Bryan can do heel. But he's brought no attention to the WHC. All that momentum which was handed to him fizzled. Henry's build to the top was some of Smackdown best stuff last year, and I just don't see Bryan's work since then coming close to holding a candle to it.

    Cena was front and center of Wrestlemania 25's promotional material. And the point is that for a time this last fall, Henry's run as World Heavyweight Champion was more successful than the WWE Championship bounce from Punk to Del Rio and then Cena. Were Henry not injured, and were his push to continue, we'd have a real match to talk about for Wrestlemania. There would be enough momentum and energy to really push someone coming out of it, be it Henry or whoever his opponent was (likely a face Bryan). Bryan brings none of that into this match himself. It's not his fault, but he's just not been able to gather any energy for his bout.

    He was the only way to go. Big Show has proven to be bland as a top guy. Orton was injured. Wade wasn't ready. Rhodes was busy. Christian was still out. There was just no where else to go with it besides possibly a heel Sheamus, but even that would have spiked the build they had been giving him for over half a year. Creative was backed into a corner and knew that Bryan was the only way out.

    But Bryan isn't over as a heel, or at least is no where near as over as Henry was. Henry helped lead Smackdown to some of it's best numbers since debuting on SyFy. Bryan helped lead Smackdown to a near-rock bottom 1.7 rating with a featured Punk vs Bryan match, which was over with the crowd when featured on Raw.

    But now you're veering off into whether Bryan can perform. Yes, the guy can work. Yes, the guy has been given a heel gimmick. But what has he done with it? These stories are nice, but they don't address the drop off in Smackdown's quality since they were forced to write the belt off of Henry. Smackdown's ratings have cooled going into Wrestlemania, with last week's show doing a low 1.8, a low match this year by the launch of heel Bryan on January 6th's Smackdown. That's not a success.

    The point here is that even after he lead WWE through a hot Wrestlemania, The Miz was not immune to getting shuffled back down the cards. And let's not forget that Miz is hot within the company for things Bryan can't do. Bryan doesn't have the media appeal Miz has. Bryan doesn't have the past history with the company that Miz has. That Miz might come out of this funk ok isn't evidence that Bryan would do as well. Bryan just doesn't have the political coin that Miz does, and he'd likely suffer a worse fate than Miz has.

    I disagree. I feel that comparing Bryan's run to what should have been is key in determining whether his run is a success or not. It's not often that the WWE can find a way to push both world titles at the top, but with Henry they were able to. With Bryan, the title sunk again.

    By Elimination Chamber, when the WWE likely looked over the situation, Bryan was still the easiest way to get things done. Barrett was being saved for Money in the Bank. Rhodes was set to defend his title. Big Show has long been known to sink interest going into Wrestlemania. Henry was still not at 100%. There was simply no other choice than to let Bryan go to Wrestlemania. He wasn't chosen out of good faith; he was chosen for convenience.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Daniel Bryan's Wrestlemania story should have been so much more. Long billed as an underdog and an everyman, Bryan was to march into Wrestlemania with honor to challenge the World Heavyweight Champion. So much of his build in the WWE since his debut led to this moment. It was to be where he finally got over big time.

    Instead, Bryan's left with having to subvert his gimmick into being a cheap heel. He's had to give up a lucrative spot to be a placeholder champion because of someone else's injury. His run has led the World Heavyweight Championship from being a top title to an afterthought. His run has led Smackdown on SyFy to some of the lowest ratings it's ever had, even when featuring with hot Raw top star CM Punk. How can anyone call that a success?

    This is going to be one of the biggest Wrestlemania's ever, with many matches carrying the potential to steal the show. Buried deep in those matches will be Sheamus vs Bryan, a match with no real build, no story, no momentum, and no fanfare. It's a far cry from what could have been for Daniel Bryan. It's a far cry from what his success as World Heavyweight Champion could have been.
     
    #9
    Davi323 likes this.
  10. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Another one finished up. Sweetness.

    Clarity - Jose. That's what an opener should frickin' look like people. Love it. deanerandterry's posts were nice, a little too extraneous for me, but I'm not taking a point away because of it. Jose was just a little better.

    Point - DirtyJose

    Punctuality - deanerandterry had that quick draw about him. Nicely done.

    Point - deanerandterry

    Informative - There wasn't really much information in here. Probably going to sound cheap, and it likely is. Jose is getting this based on his, little, use of ratings in his favor. Though for future reference when using information please give a link, at least when it comes to ratings and what not. deanerandterry going with a Honky Tonk reference is nice, but saying D-Bry is that is a little premature, at least right now.

    Point - DirtyJose

    Persuasion - I've got to side with Jose on this one. The build to Mania between Sheamus and Bryan has been lackluster for me, especially for a World Heavyweight Championship match. Whether that is intentional from the back or not, it doesn't bode well. He gets boos from the live crowd, but most people probably don't care about this match. How can you get into a match if you're not invested in the feud? That to me says a lot about the 'E backing Bryan right now.

    Points - DirtyJose

    deanerandterry, don't get discouraged by my score. You did a hell of a job.

    CH David scores this DirtyJose 4, deanerandterry 1.
     
    #10
  11. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Clarity: Jose. His posts were structured well and executed tremendously.

    Punctuality: deanerandterry was the faster of the two. His point.

    Informative: Very little to go on as this was mostly opinion based, but much like CH, I'm going to pick Jose, simply because of the ratings. He tried to use outside sources, and in doing so, earns the point...though a link would be nice next time.

    Persuasion: Believe it or not, my points are headed the way of deanerandterry. Why? Because I thought a lot of Jose's arguments were built on very, very shaky ground. There was a bunch of possibilities that Jose mentioned, but none were extremely solid. In fact, the most solid report at the time, if I recall correctly was that Henry was always supposed to lose the belt to Bryan at the EC before Mania, so there we are. deanerandterry dealt with the reality of the situation in my view and he handled the theories of his opponent well enough to earn him the points.

    FunKay Scores It: deanerandterry: 3, DirtyJose: 2
     
    #11
  12. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    Clarity-Jose had the better structure. I know that this isn't a grammar contest or anything, but a few commas here and there would have helped deaner. There were times when I would have to re-read sentences because there was no pause.

    Punctuality- Deaner was faster.

    Informative- This is pretty much a coin-flip, so I'll give it to deaner. I dug the snakey heel description and comparison to Flair. It's really 100% formulaic with literally nobody breaking the mold.

    Persuasion- Jose. Personally, I enjoy both Sheamus and DB and am looking forward to their match at Mania, moreso than a couple of the big attractions, but it's hard to argue that DB is a successful champion when his title match at Mania is as far back on the burner as the IC Title match.

    Nate scores it Jose 3, deaner 2.
     
    #12
  13. SavageTaker

    SavageTaker Everybody Has A Price!

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    Sorry for the delay guys but I was finally able to get to it.

    Clarity of debate
    - I really can't say anything here that hasn't already been said. Great job Dirty.

    Punctuality - It seems like deanerandterry was always able to reply on the same day Jose posted his rebuttal so deaner gets the point.

    Informative - I have to agree with CH and Funkay here. Although there wasn't much "information" brought in, the ratings put Jose over the edge and gave him the point. Also, I'd like to echo what my fellow judges said about providing links. Remember, you can make up any number's you'd like and typo's can happen so we have to be able to go to the source in order to verify the information. Remember what I said in another debate, wrong info will immediately make you lose a point. I'm not saying there was any of that in here, but in the interest of fairness I want to be able to see where you got your info from just to make sure if it's accurate and used properly.

    Persuasion -I'll be honest, I haven't really been keeping up with any wrestling the past two weeks and have just skipped Smackdown! and anything that has to do with Daniel Bryan and Sheamus. Ultimately, I feel like I've been making the right decision and Dirty reassured me of that by being able to prove that Bryan's reign has been a bust. Deanerandterry put up a valiant effort but I just couldn't believe that his reign has been anything but a bust and wasn't even on the fence for just a little bit.

    Dirty: 4 points, deanerandterry: 1 point.
     
    #13
  14. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Congratulations to DirtyJose who defeats deanandterry by a score of 13-7. He will move onto Winner's bracket #16 to face Mitch Hennessey while deanandterry moves down to Loser's bracket #12 to face Talon.

    Great work, guys.
     
    #14
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