Winner's Bracket Debate #2: nightmare -vs- Mr. Steve

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2012' started by D-Man, Mar 25, 2012.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Was Hulk Hogan's entrance into TNA beneficial for the company, long-term?



    This is a first round, winner's bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

    nightmare won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

    The maximum amount of posts for each debater in this round is three. Once this criteria is met, (or the allotted time of the debate runs out,) the debate will end and judging will commence.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Thursday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Saturday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck to the participants.
     
    #1
  2. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    I'm choosing to go with yes Hogan being in TNA is beneficial in the long run.
     
    #2
  3. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    Very well. I'll go first and get this going, then.

    How Hulk Hogan's tenure in TNA benefits no one.​

    In 2009, it was revealed that Hulk Hogan had signed a contract with TNA. Ever since that time, he's been involved in a fair amount of story lines ever since his arrival. From that feud he held with Jeff Jarret in which he states that he had to earn his spot in TNA, immortals and his current run as General Manager, I believe; theres an underlying theme with those things that reflect Hulk Hogan and what we've read on sheets, heard on shoot interviews.

    Now, let's reflect on how Hulk Hogan doesn't benefit TNA in the long run and no one while I'm a it, only benefits himself in the short run, if at all.

    TNA Originals

    Yep , this argument again. Hogan doesn't benefit the roster. The thing about putting them over is so they stay over. Sure, one can argue about the "start-stop" booking technique that's employed (what did Mr. Kennedy Anderson do for a while when he wasn't on the show?). Conversely, one can ask: whatever happened to that Abyss that did the hall of fame ring thing with Hogan? Why did Hogan, a dude that had just come in, tell Jeff Jarrett to earn his spot?

    Sure, one can argue that with any new boss, there must be changes applied to the establishment....but not at the expense of taking the six sided ring with you! Out of all the changes that one can make, you're taking the ring away. Before, I would say how cool the spots would envelop because the ring helped in that matter. One can work with what is there, but if theres a six sided ring, some pretty cool spots go down. It gives it an alternate feel. Same as having the TNA Originals featured on a daily basis, not alternate them with The Hardys, Mr. Anderson, RVD (who was a fucking flop) and such.

    The point is that, in the history of TNA, it's been proven that the Originals have to carry the slack and more at the expense of being lower on the pecking paper.

    Name power is fickle in the wrestling world​

    There's a generational shift when it comes to wrestling. There are those that saw the golden days of professional wrestling as well as the attitude era, the ones who only saw the former and those who only saw the latter. Quite universally, they'll remember about hulkamania. But what happened to Hulkamania?

    Stone cold Steve Austin happened. What happened to Stone cold Steve Austin? Brock lesnar (don't fucking deny it) and so in and in until you see where the name power is right now: John Cena. The point is, name power and being over in wrestling doesn't stay with you, it just passes on to the next guy whose hailed as the man in the industry. Had Hogan been willing to pass it on to the next guy instead of hoard it, jump ship to WCW and be the receiving end of the NWO's ultra expansion and Hogan's paychecks.

    The point being: Hogan pretended to breathe life into the characters (his words) in TNA with hot air: hot air, of course, I imply that Hogan is well aware that his name isn't as resolute as before. Thats what really hurts a promotions: bringing a guy that thinks himself above the business.

    Hogan and his run in TNA just doesn't seem right for them. It's exposure at exposures expense. Once Hogan carried a shred of power, it's been said that he inflates it, expands it and never lets it go. Leave TNA for the originals and Jeff Jarrett. They were onto something anyway.
     
    #3
  4. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    TNA has come a long way over the years since its inception back in 2002. A slow build from minor promotion, to weekly PPV events, eventually bringing in cable deals and U.S.\overseas tours. This is due to the new crop of exciting talent and the star power that TNA has brought in over the years. With the acquisition of arguably the biggest name in wrestling history, Hulk Hogan, TNA created a huge buzz in the media and among fans. The promotion is currently seen in around 120 countries worldwide and popularity continues to grow.

    Hulk Hogan is most definitely beneficial for TNA\Impact Wresting in the long run. Here is why...



    Experience Factor:

    Hogan is a true legend. The man can gather and excite a crowd like no other. He may not bring much in the way of ‘innovative’ moves, but he more than makes up for that when it comes to being a performer. He has given us some of the most memorable moments in the history of this business. Having him around benefits the newer generation of stars and gives them a legend close at hand to learn from. His charismatic style as both heel and face is what has kept us all in awe of Hulkamania. Being able to pick up tips from a huge star like Hogan can help to get a character over with the crowd or draw serious heat, depending on the character. Anyone lucky enough to have a chance to work with the man has said how it caused them to elevate their game and brought out the best they had. In the eyes of a professional wrestler, working with one of your childhood heroes is a dream come true.



    Nostalgia Factor:

    With Hogan being in TNA it gives fans a chance to see him when they otherwise might not have had the opportunity. That also brings Hogan into a new generation full of fans interested in learning the history of the business. TNA benefits by having new fans tune in while older fans get a chance to once again catch a glimpse of Hulkamania. TNA now has a chance to show off their great roster of talent to a new crowd. Come for Hogan; get hooked on a new generation of stars. Older fans love to relive the glory days from their past and in the process the get treated to great matches from the stars of the future. Nostalgia brings them in and guys like AJ, Roode and Shelley get them hooked. When Hogan debuted in TNA on 1/4/10, fans got treated to a great match between AJ and Angle. The show drew a 1.5 rating and was the highest in TNA history. That was very good considering it was live on a Monday and went up against RAW that featured another legend returning to the WWE- Bret Hart. People tuning in to see Hogan got treated to a glimpse of what is great about TNA. We got our dose of nostalgia and surprises as well as TNA having a chance to showcase their great talent.



    Name Recognition Factor:


    Name recognition = ticket\merchandise sales. That is a huge factor in helping a company. Having a big name like Hogan on the card is a huge draw. It puts butts in seats and generates money from ticket sales. People will buy shirts and memorabilia while at shows and that pulls in dollars to the company. That money helps the company expand.

    Take for instance the Maximum Impact tours. They generated a huge buzz and were a great success. Each year they improve on an already great fan base in Europe from previous tours. IQ magazine even named the tour in 2010”best sports production of 2010”. The tours are high energy and get better with time with new stars added each year. Fans overseas go crazy for TNA. Having big names announced like Hogan\Flair\Sting on the cards make each year better. Big name stars open doors. Look at the Ring Ka King promotion. It is gaining steam and fans in India are loving it. You have big names in your company, it creates a buzz and it allows for expansion. Fans in India loved TNA because of the stars and action. Now TNA has a partnership in a localized promotion within a market that WWE rarely visits live. That is a big step in the right direction.

    Big names draw advertisers to the product as well. Having a guy like Hogan with your company causes people to take notice and that creates opportunity that otherwise might have been missed. Advertisers love to get their product to a new demographic and a big name star helps draw potential customers. It creates a buzz and the exposure for TNA is great for the company in its growth. Vince didn’t get rich by staying in small venues. He used big name stars to grow his company. That drew a buzz and that buzz caused the company to grow. Hogan’s name helps TNA promote their company. Sure it isn’t as big of an impact as back in the 80’s but it is a different time now. You still can’t deny that his name draws regardless of the decade. That gains exposure for the business and gets fans interested in other stars they might not have seen before.



    In conclusion....


    Now I’m not saying that Hogan is the only reason TNA has grown. That would be ridiculous. He is, however, a good name to have around. Whatever your personal opinion of the man, you can’t help but realize how a legend like Hogan will help a company. You might not like TNA and complain about the storylines, but you have to admit- his name got you to pay attention didn’t it. Like it or not bringing in Hogan worked for TNA. They wanted a big name and got it. They wanted exposure and they got it. TNA executed a plan and it worked. It created a buzz, got fans to buy tickets\merch and has helped their company grow.
     
    #4
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  5. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    Yeah, I can't use anything of what you had stated. It implies that Hogan is more than a spoke on the wheel and that Hogan carries current brand exposure, which can in turn be funneled into the company itself. The problem is, I don't see it as such. He has a brand name that is fading in and of itself and that will leave a gap that won't be filled when the time comes that he should step away form the spotlight. A side note: Do you really think he'd be in TNA if WWE had offered the money that he wanted at the time of his run back then?

    We can't know for sure, and this back to the point. Look, the fact is that Hogan won't be around that much longer if he can't help himself. The focus of this debate is to see if TNA benefits when that situation happens. We're two years in ever since he first signed that contract with Dixie that gave him a huge amount of clout. Little by little, it started from going away from the 'Rasslin that defined WCW at the time and started to be that amalgamation of how Hogan worked his stuff and what WCW was.

    The problem is, Hogan isn't know for keeping stuff that doesn't need to be fixed. Once again, Hogan's contract entails a lot of clout unto one man. Not long after the contract, remember the six-sided ring? Again and I'm sorry for the repetitiveness, but that was part of what made TNA an alternative. an alternative from other wrestling promotions. TNA was known for the cool ass spots with the X Division and the Knockouts. Sure, it could have done with something that could take it to that next level that promotions want to achieve but Hogan isn't it.

    Hogan isn't a person that's willing to share. Sure, he'd teach you to step your game up but don't step it up too much or else! Also, it doesn't benefit TNA because when Hogan arrived, it stopped being TNA, that promotion that had the X Division and the Knockout Matches with Awesome Kong, Gail Kim and the like. If anything, D-Man should rename the Debate Title "Does Impact! Wrestling benefit in the long run with Hogan's entrance?"


    No. It doesn't.
     
    #5
  6. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Hogan isnt the sole bread winner for TNA, but he is a part of the equation. You cannot deny that an extra 'spoke in the wheel' such as Hogan helps strengthen that wheel. What you fail to get is that any money he brings in can\will be funneled into the company. Money helps business grow.

    You say that his exit will leave a gap that wont be filled when he leaves. Yet you are implying that his impact isnt that big or important- in fact you say his presence hurts the company. Seems a tad bit contradictory to call his role destructive yet say his exit will cause a gap to go unfilled. If he is such a cancer wouldn't they want to get rid of him?

    If his 'brand name' is fading why do we still hear people chant his name? If his stock isn't worth much in the eyes of fans then why do they buy his shirts and sport the red\yellow at live events all over the globe?

    So how big of a gap are you expecting and in what capacity- Storyline wise or from a financial standpoint? Give some clarification on what you mean by 'gap'.




    I thought the debate was about- 'Was Hulk Hogan's entrance into TNA beneficial for the company, long-term?'

    We arent talking about if it helps or hurts them when he leaves. We are discussing the impact he has had on TNA since he signed and how that benefits them in the future of their company.






    The 6 sided ring was pretty cool. It served its purpose as a gimmick. It doesn't change the fact that you can just as easily hit high spots in a 4 sided ring. 6 sides doesn't mean you cannot jump in any direction you wish, regardless of how many turnbuckles a ring has. Every other promotion seems to be doing just fine without 6 sides. The ring didn't make them alternative, it was\is the attitude and level of action in the ring. Xdivision\Knockouts\TNA talent are still there and the sides of the ring havent changed that.


    If the most negative impact Hogan has had on TNA is that the 6 sided ring is gone, then that isn't a very big problem in my opinion. They have gone on without it, and are doing just fine.





    If Hogan is such a bastard that doesn't share and uses his power only to benefit himself, wouldn't he have put the title around his waist at some point? What belts have Hogan booked himself to win again? Oh, yea.... none. Doesn't sound like he is using the playbook called 'Book yourself as champ' that he used in WCW. Oddly enough, the title picture has been pretty good. AJ, Roode, and Storm have been champs since Hogan came around. Those are pure TNA stars.


    The Knockouts are still there. Hogan hasn't tried to dominate that division yet. Its not like he put on a skirt and booked himself over them. X division is still there and even had a storyline with Bischoff threatening to cut them all. Yet here they are still putting on good matches, with a great champ in Austin Aries. Once MCMG comes back, it will only get better.

    TNA changed to IMPACT because their slogan became 'Wrestling Matters'. That was a shot at WWE, not because Hogan was trying to destroy what TNA is about. I think you missed the point with that one. Your acting like he renamed it 'Hulk Hogan and Friends' or something....




    Hogan isn't killing the company folks. It is a far cry from his 'Iron Fist' days in WCW. TNA still is a great alternative product to the WWE machine. He was brought in to get the company exposure and gain a major player in the business that WWE didn't have. That plan worked. It got people talking and tuning in to see the show that, strangely enough, features..... wait for it.... TNA stars. Holy crap. To think- he helped create a buzz for the company he works for and it caused people to watch the show. What a bastard that Hogan must be.


    Hogan being added to the company pulled in advertising dollars and money from ticket\merchandise sales. Any big name star that the company brings in, only adds to the growth of their business. Angle, Sting, Flair and others all helped out TNA by boosting ticket sales, selling merch and helping get fans to tune in. All cash made from that benefits the company. Money makes your business grow.


    You have failed to convince me that Hogan is destroying TNA or that he hurts the growth of the company. You are losing.


    Business strategy, marketing techniques and adding big name talent outweighs the elimination of the 6 sided ring.
     
    #6
  7. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    What's that? Hogan said something about Roode at that time? From Sirius' radio Busted Open, which aired a bit after Hogan was in TNA (he was promoting Bound For Glory)

    Hogan fucked the guy over! Jesus Christ, That's the guy that's promoting the show like a TNA Ambassador. Roode was getting people behind him and he was poised to be the champ and just be the man. I don't know that much about the insider business, but that's not helpful to Roode. People listen to Hogan and if Hogan makes a mistake, people will not be able to know. Something to note: Roode won the title last year, if I'm not mistaken.

    Behold, the very ratings in 2010 when Hogan had arrived!

    http://www.gerweck.net/tv-ratings/2010-ratings/

    The ratings in 2011

    http://www.gerweck.net/tv-ratings/2011-ratings/

    And the ratings this year thus far.

    http://www.gerweck.net/tv-ratings/2012-tv-ratings/

    You brought up ratings the first time around, but this isn't about how Hogan had appeared on those shows and how things quickly shuffled and how TNA had entered india's market in Ra King Ka (which is totally not related to Hogan).

    This is about how Hogan enters and if it benefits TNA in the long run. Welp, no. By being employed as what could be seen as a publicity stunt, Dixie Carter hoped to engage WWE and WWE retaliated in kind: a conclusion to the Montreal Screwjob. Let's put it this way, when people tuned in to see Bret Hart (who has less star power than Hogan), there's something there. You can apply brand loyalty, the nostalgia factor to the mix, but the fact remains: Bret remained fresher in people's minds as opposed to Hogan.

    Hogan isn't the big factor that can help TNA: Not by a long shot. They're a young company that was starting to define its product as time was passing by, Hogan's entry gave an abrupt sense of things and well, look at the ratings that people like to take stock on.

    Oh, here's AJ to explain:

    Ok, here's the guy who was the man in TNA before Hogan's arrival, explaining how his gimmick changed all because of Hogan. AJ works behind the scenes WITH them, so clearly there's something off here.

    This is about Hogan being a good thing for TNA in the long run: Nope. I will seriously stress this a lot. Hogan went in, changed it to how he saw fit at the expense of the guys that were already there. Fourtune, Bischoff at the power helm with him: they're all familiar scenarios. Hogan brought nothing new to the table except basically saying "Come on over and watch me reshape these wrestler's gimmicks to how I see fit."

    It's not about wearing the red and yellow: it's about the AJ Styles, Roode's, Storm's, all these wrestlers who have to have their merch out since it's money for their pocket. The red and yellow overshadows that, which isn't beneficial at all. The reality is: Hogan will leave. albeit with a (God forbid) a health issue, some other issue that can arise. His departure will bring a palate cleansing and TNA will be in the same spot as before.

    All because Hogan decided to hold the press conference in Madison Square Garden.
     
    #7
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  8. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Glad you brought up that interview, pal. Did you read the whole thing or just a few parts? The statement was in regard to him going over Kurt Angle, the current champion at the time. He said he wasn’t ready in that regard. Not that he was trying to bury the guy. Same interview, talking about his future:

    "Bobby Roode stepped up, and he’s definitely become a presence"
    " Bobby Roode’s a tremendous athlete"


    He also said he thought he had great potential as a heel. Well, what happened? Roode became heel and has been a great champ for about 6 months now. He gave his opinion and his opinion was a success.


    He also said his opinions can be hit and miss. Just like anyone else in the business. Vince has come up with the stupidest matches\gimmicks\storylines in history, yet the WWE is still in business. Hogan isn’t destroying TNA by giving his opinions. Some work, some don’t. Hell, JJ has had some dumbass ideas and he started the damn company. People aren’t saying he is bad for the company, so why so much hate for Hogan? I think maybe people have a hard time being objective based on a biased hate caused by personal opinion. Who knows....


    Hogan isn’t part of creative for TNA. He does hold final say regarding his character, but that’s not the same thing at all. He might give his opinions and that does have some merit, but he isn’t solely responsible for everything like you are trying to make it seem.



    The AJ situation is a toss up. Alot of fans liked the change. Fourtune was popular, but it could have gone either way. Hell not all people like every change, but at the end of the day it’s about what gets over with the fans. You can get a gimmick change and still become the top guy again if it doesn’t work. Austin did it, HHH did it and alot of current stars have done it. AJ will still be himself at the end of it all. As much as I love the guy as a wrestler, he has been at it forever. Got to wonder if TNA is the top of his mountain. Does anyone think that if he ends up in WWE that they won’t just mold him into what Vince wants? He could have been 'Long Island Iced AJ' or 'Kerwin Styles'.... something alot worse than being modeled after Ric F'N Flair.



    Ratings are fickle and not an exact science as we all know. My point was he is a draw. So much so that his debut drew the highest TNA had seen. The point about the Ring Ka King situation was about expansion due to exposure and monetary growth as a company. Hogan wasn’t directly responsible (never said he was) but if not for big names helping to further the company (ticket sales, etc...), the company cannot grow or expand. Doesn’t matter if we are talking about Sting, Hogan or Flair, etc. The context in that the statement was made was in regard to growth\expansion- not because Hogan waved his magic wand.




    It sure did piss off WWE. Their way to one-up TNA, was to bring in Hart. A 12 year absence by a legend is a huge deal especially regarding the circumstances. Putting an end to arguably the most controversial moment in wrestling history was probably the smartest move. Damn right that was big. No-one ever thought we would see him again in a WWE ring.

    Bringing in Hogan was a huge moment for TNA. Bringing back Hart was a huge moment for the entire sport. Difference is -Hogan is still here, Hart isn’t. So, maybe the Hart situation was a bit more of a 'publicity stunt' than the signing of Hogan. Do you really think Vince would have done that storyline just because he was being nice? The man doesn’t do anything unless it’s good for business. So I guess in the long run TNA made a good move by signing Hogan.




    They defined it and have expanded on it. 8 years passed before Hogan signed. They have grown with every step and every big star they have signed has helped in some way. That includes Hogan. You still have said nothing to this point about how he hurts them financially, or in the long run. All you say is Hogan is bad, TNA isn’t the same company cuz its called 'IMPACT' and there will be a gap when he leaves. Still haven’t explained what you meant by 'gap', or given a solid reason why TNA has been hurt by his presence. What do you have to say about the points I made regarding the ticket\merch sales or ways a company grows besides 'storyline' wise? You can’t combat it, so you avoid it.



    .... This has been a paid announcement brought to you by the New World Order.....
     
    #8
  9. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Ok, this debate has concluded. Nice work, guys.

    Judges, do you thing.
     
    #9
  10. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity - This is a surprisingly tough one. Both used bold, nightmare more, and both had some nice spacing, and were concise throughout. They had a similar mindset in less quoting, but Steven had more of it. Good stuff the both of you.

    Point - Mr. Steve

    Punctuality - Steven was late. Goes to nightmare.

    Point- nightmare

    Informative - Steven linked us to the ratings that TNA has had for the past two and a quarter years. They have stayed relatively similar. Not exactly growth now is it?

    Point - Mr. Steve

    Persuasion - Gonna go with nightmare on this one. Right now ratings may be steady in the 1.00-1.22 range, but that's not the only thing to look at. TNA now backing Ring Ka King is a fairly big move. Branching out to a new audience with tons of potential fans is nothing to slouch at. Hogan coming in helped bring that income to try and start it up.

    Points - nightmare

    Very nice back and forth, you guys.

    CH David scores this nightmare 3, Mr. Steve 2.
     
    #10
  11. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Clarity: Nightmare's was consistently good for me. In Steve's OP, some of his formatting was messed up.

    Punctuality: Steve was late, so again, Nightmare.

    Informative: As CH said, the use of ratings to further his point earns Steve this point.

    Persuasion: I felt Nightmare argued his points just that little bit better. He made me more interested in his argument and I was invested in his thoughts on the subject. Steve, you did a solid job, but not enough to take it.

    FunKay Scores It: Nightmare: 4, Steve: 1
     
    #11
  12. SavageTaker

    SavageTaker Everybody Has A Price!

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    Clarity of debate - Nightmare was much more organized and clear in what he was saying. A tip for every debater: write up your replies in Microsoft word or whichever program you have and use spell check. Steve, there were some parts in your posts which I saw were misspelled so it was hard to sometime follow a point a you were trying to make because of a particular part that didn't make sense.

    Punctuality
    - What my fellow judges said. Nightmare gets the point.

    Informative - I won't deny that Steve brought in the ratings, which earns him the point here, but I would've liked to see some more discussion on this since it could've gave you the win Steve. Also, Nightmare, you mentioned merchandise sales, live attendance and other things, but where was your evidence? I know it might be a bit hard considering TNA doesn't have to release those numbers, but I'm sure if you dug around the web for a little you could've have found some facts and figures that would've furthered your point here.

    Persuasion
    - I'm awarding this point to Nightmare simply because I don't think Steve did a good job at convincing and reassuring me that Hogan isn't beneficial for the company in the long run. Nightmare really put forth the effort and brought in some really good points. On the other hand, I think Steve chose the easier side and I think he thought this was going to be a walk in the park which it wasn't.

    Nightmare: 4, Steve: 1
     
    #12
  13. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Unfortunately, even if Mr. Steve gets a perfect score from Nate, he cannot win this bracket. Therefore, nightmare has upset Mr. Steve by a score of 11-4. He will move onto Winner's bracket #13 while Mr. Steve moves down to Loser's bracket #9.

    I'm going to keep an eye on nightmare. He just demolished an established force in this thing.

    Good work.
     
    #13
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