Winner's Bracket Debate #1: Rohan -vs- Aweome_Miz

[D-Man]

In today's pro-wrestling world, is it more beneficial for a wrestler to work their way through the independent circuit before joining promotions such as ROH, TNA, or WWE? (Of course, for argument's sake, we're considering ROH one of today's top promotions that's on par with WWE and TNA.)​

This is a first round, winner's bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

Rohan won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

The maximum amount of posts for each debater in this round is three. Once this criteria is met, (or the allotted time of the debate runs out,) the debate will end and judging will commence.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Thursday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Saturday at 2pm EST.

Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

Good luck to the participants.

 

[¡Roján!]

In today's pro-wrestling world, it is more beneficial for a wrestler to work their way through the independent circuit before joining promotions such as ROH, TNA, or WWE.

 

[Awesome_Miz]

I choose for Rohan to go first. Let it begin!

 

[¡Roján!]

I'm sorry for being a little last-minute (literally) on this one, Aweome_Miz. I've had a hectic day. Still though, let's get to it.

In today's pro-wrestling world, it is more beneficial for a wrestler to work their way through the independent circuit before joining promotions such as ROH,*TNA, or WWE.

I am for this statement as when talking about today's pro wrestling, we need look no further than Wrestlemania 28 . Although this opening post is WWE exclusive, I plan on mentioning TNA and ROH in my responses.

So to get this thing started. for argument's sake, let's not consider Undertaker, Triple H, The Rock and Chris Jericho(even though his story still applies) as current pro-wrestlers. Now, when you look at the remaining participants in the four main events you're left with CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Sheamus and John Cena. What do these four full-time, current wrestlers all have in common? They worked their way through their respective independent organization each achieving the highest possible accolade in winning the world championship. John Cena won the UPW title, Daniel Bryan and CM Punk both won the ROH Championship, when ROH was considered an indy, and Sheamus won the Irish Whip Wrestling title. So, how did these stints at working through the indies until achieving mainstream success help these four higher echelon stars?

Well, let's look at it mic wise first.

With a microphone in hand, with maybe the exception of Sheamus, these stars have a different way of doing things which the basic FCW to NXT stars don't. Take a look at all the jobbers of the WWE: Tyson Kidd, Trent Baretta, Curt Hawkins, Tyler Reks, etc... None of them have achieved success in the indies or the WWE on the stick, mainly due to them being taught the cookie-cutter ways of WWE development territories. The lines have always been fed to them and no variation has ever been allowed, leading to mundane, one-dimensional promos with no personality shining through. This wasn't a problem so much with OVW and territories as they all seemed to teach mic skills better than FCW did. Take CM Punk's infamous shoot, for example. Could you imagine Heath Slater pulling that off as convincing as Punk did? It just would wouldn't happen. Why? Because CM Punk managed to garner up a wealth of experience in ROH, with freedom in promos, that many of the jobbers in WWE have never had. That's the difference between an indy star and a WWE-born star. If Punk, Daniel Bryan, to an extent Sheamus and John Cena aren't enough examples for you, look at Wade Barrett too.

In-ring wise, Daniel Bryan, Sheamus, CM Punk and John Cena are the best in-ring competitors out there, bar none. Not only do they boast a huge plethora of moves, they all have a purpose. When you compare Daniel Bryan's ''working on the limbs'' strategy to Miz's ''perform any move that I know, without any clear intention'' one, there's only one clear winner. Daniel Bryan's move set is a compilation of many things that have been picked up by different people on the indy circuit, something WWE-born stars again, can't claim to have. It gives Punk and Cena the ability to put on five-star matches two PPVs on-a-row, where as other would never be able to keep up such a standard.. Chris Jericho, like I mentioned before, is the man of 1004 holds, and he is a perfectionist of all after doing them so many times on the indy circuit that perfecting them, he has more time to focus on selling, working the crowd, and taunting, telling factors which separate a mid-carder from a main-eventer.

So, to sum-up, working the indies before making it mainstream is always going to benefit the party involved. It gives the star an experience and knowledge of the wrestling world that simple can't be taught. The two world champions spawned from these origins, so it is pretty evident that in today's pro-wrestling world, working the indies is an immediate advantage compared to other wrestlers.

 

[Awesome_Miz]

In today's pro-wrestling world, it isn't beneficial for a wrestler to work their way through the independent circuit before joining promotions such as ROH, TNA, or WWE.

Intro​

Now, many may that it can be good for a star to somewhere but I beck to differ. You might be asking yourselves but why? You see right who are the World Champions in the WWE? Daniel Bryan and CM Punk. But are they actually the top faces? The answer is simple, No. So who is the top face and that's Cena. But wait didn't he start somewhere before going to the WWE? Yes but here is the funny part didn't last in a independent circuit. But he still start somewhere before going to WWE. But he ain't a true succesful story of an indy guy. So, is there a succesful story for an indy guy or girl?​

Body​

Well, you might go now to TNA and say there's a ton of indy guys. But in reality are of them the top guy there? No. But you know who is? Hulk Hogan. This is a guy who got famous of in WWE and not some indy place. Have any of them benifited from the indies? No. Don't say A.J. or Daniels no cause they have not gotten anything from the indies since they are just pretty much in the mid-card.

Conclusion​

Overall, my point is that no one who are known for being indy stars have gotten any thing from that. So, if you try to say that they have benifited from being the indy guys then just please stop.​

 

[Awesome_Miz]

I am for this statement as when talking about today's pro wrestling, we need look no further than Wrestlemania 28 . Although this opening post is WWE exclusive, I plan on mentioning TNA and ROH in my responses.

I will await your TNA and ROH reply

So to get this thing started. for argument's sake, let's not consider Undertaker, Triple H, The Rock and Chris Jericho(even though his story still applies) as current pro-wrestlers. Now, when you look at the remaining participants in the four main events you're left with CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Sheamus and John Cena. What do these four full-time, current wrestlers all have in common? They worked their way through their respective independent organization each achieving the highest possible accolade in winning the world championship. John Cena won the UPW title, Daniel Bryan and CM Punk both won the ROH Championship, when ROH was considered an indy, and Sheamus won the Irish Whip Wrestling title. So, how did these stints at working through the indies until achieving mainstream success help these four higher echelon stars?

But three out of those men aren't the top star. Sure you can say Punk is a star but what he did he do to get notice? That's right he to make shoot promo.

Well, let's look at it mic wise first.

With a microphone in hand, with maybe the exception of Sheamus, these stars have a different way of doing things which the basic FCW to NXT stars don't. Take a look at all the jobbers of the WWE: Tyson Kidd, Trent Baretta, Curt Hawkins, Tyler Reks, etc... None of them have achieved success in the indies or the WWE on the stick, mainly due to them being taught the cookie-cutter ways of WWE development territories. The lines have always been fed to them and no variation has ever been allowed, leading to mundane, one-dimensional promos with no personality shining through. This wasn't a problem so much with OVW and territories as they all seemed to teach mic skills better than FCW did. Take CM Punk's infamous shoot, for example. Could you imagine Heath Slater pulling that off as convincing as Punk did? It just would wouldn't happen. Why? Because CM Punk managed to garner up a wealth of experience in ROH, with freedom in promos, that many of the jobbers in WWE have never had. That's the difference between an indy star and a WWE-born star. If Punk, Daniel Bryan, to an extent Sheamus and John Cena aren't enough examples for you, look at Wade Barrett too.

I'm laughing my ass of right now and you know why cause those jobbers you talk about where former indy stars. So, what does mean well, they didn't benefit anything cause they are now complete jokes. They basically job to Brodus Clay.

In-ring wise, Daniel Bryan, Sheamus, CM Punk and John Cena are the best in-ring competitors out there, bar none. Not only do they boast a huge plethora of moves, they all have a purpose. When you compare Daniel Bryan's ''working on the limbs'' strategy to Miz's ''perform any move that I know, without any clear intention'' one, there's only one clear winner. Daniel Bryan's move set is a compilation of many things that have been picked up by different people on the indy circuit, something WWE-born stars again, can't claim to have. It gives Punk and Cena the ability to put on five-star matches two PPVs on-a-row, where as other would never be able to keep up such a standard.. Chris Jericho, like I mentioned before, is the man of 1004 holds, and he is a perfectionist of all after doing them so many times on the indy circuit that perfecting them, he has more time to focus on selling, working the crowd, and taunting, telling factors which separate a mid-carder from a main-eventer.

But what do they get from wrestling. Nothing by WWE standars of course since they believe in media and Miz is media.

So, to sum-up, working the indies before making it mainstream is always going to benefit the party involved. It gives the star an experience and knowledge of the wrestling world that simple can't be taught. The two world champions spawned from these origins, so it is pretty evident that in today's pro-wrestling world, working the indies is an immediate advantage compared to other wrestlers.

But also some stars don't get anything in return since they can become jobbers or laughing staucks.

 

[¡Roján!]

Now, many may that it can be good for a star to somewhere but I beck to differ.

You might be asking yourselves but why? You see right who are the World Champions in the WWE? Daniel Bryan and CM Punk. But are they actually the top faces? The answer is simple, No.

No, they aren't the top faces of the company, of course they aren't. That's not what I'm getting at. Not everyone who does well in the indies has to become an instant hit, I just said that it gives them a head-start in getting to the top quicker and easier.

The question in the topic asks whether it's more beneficial for a wrestler to have a successful stint in the indies before heading to the big-times. Yes, yes it is, but it obviously doesn't immediately rocket you up to the top of WWE's hierarchy, give you a title belt and a blowjob from Stephanie. It gives you the tools to do better than others in a less fortunate position.

So who is the top face and that's Cena. But wait didn't he start somewhere before going to the WWE? Yes but here is the funny part didn't last in a independent circuit. But he still start somewhere before going to WWE. But he ain't a true succesful story of an indy guy. So, is there a succesful story for an indy guy or girl?

Cena was not only a natural, but he already had the look, the physique, the wrestling ability, and the discipline needed to be a star. In UPW, Cena learnt everything else that made him what he is now. He didn't need more time, he'd already made it half-way up the WWE food chain the moment he started bench-pressing.

You ask the question of whether there's been a successful indy story. Does Chris Jericho ring any bells? Does Christian seem like a flop to you? What about, say CM Punk? Come on, dude.

Well, you might go now to TNA and say there's a ton of indy guys. But in reality are of them the top guy there? No. But you know who is? Hulk Hogan. This is a guy who got famous of in WWE and not some indy place. Have any of them benifited from the indies? No. Don't say A.J. or Daniels no cause they have not gotten anything from the indies since they are just pretty much in the mid-card.

Bitch, please. Hulk Hogan is not exactly a current wrestler is he? Your points are irrelevant. I'll acknowledge you to make you feel like someone cares about you, because you were evidently dropped head-first onto concrete as a toddler by negligent parents. Hulk Hogan got all the experience he needed from working the territories (the pre-2000 version of indies) from 1977 to 1979. And, Hulk Hogan got famous in the WWE because Vince McMahon signed Hogan after he was already popular elsewhere.

And, how can you not mention A.J. Styles in this? He's a mid-carder now, but so is The Miz, someone who headlined Wrestlemania. His current status doesn't change the fact that A.J. carried TNA as the face of the company during its early television years. And why? Because he had the tools to do it. Companies don't push people just cuz'. They push people because they have the tools to make their push successful. And these tools can be found working the indy circuits. Sure, some may be born with them or just have the X factor but for us mere mortals, working the indies is always going to give us a head-start over the other mortals too. I feel like I'm repeating myself too much, but I'm just trying to emphasize my point. It ain't rocket science, buddy. It's barely even 1st grade art.

Overall, my point is that no one who are known for being indy stars have gotten any thing from that. So, if you try to say that they have benifited from being the indy guys then just please stop.

Guess I'll have to stop then, huh?

But three out of those men aren't the top star.

Yeah, that CM Punk is a jobber, huh? Fastest wrestler to ever achieve a Triple Crown, how dare he. Daniel Bryan? Yeah, the most over heel on the roster of today is not a top star. Sheamus? The first Irish-born champion who won a world title only six months after debuting, eh? What a low-life. Let's put him on Superstars and job him out to Heath Slater.

Give me a break, man, these four consist four of the five spots in WWE's current fave five out of a roster of 72 wrestlers. As counted by me.

Sure you can say Punk is a star but what he did he do to get notice? That's right he to make shoot promo.

I think you're forgetting something, Aweome: CM Punk didn't automatically book himself into a title match with Cena and shoot because he felt like it. He did it because creative gave him the green light after recognizing all his skills learnt from the indies that could make him a top player. That's the reason there aren't shoots every single RAW. Apart from them becoming not so special after a while, not everyone has the imagination, ability to convince, tone and emphasis that CM Punk had to be able to pull it off successfully. And, I believe that these traits are all results of cutting promos on the indy circuit in similar fashion.

I'm laughing my ass of right now and you know why cause those jobbers you talk about where former indy stars. So, what does mean well, they didn't benefit anything cause they are now complete jokes. They basically job to Brodus Clay.

None of the aforementioned men where ever indy stars that worked their way through the indies. Everyone wrestled in other promotions, Aweome, the WWE doesn't just pick random people off the street and elect them to become a wrestler.

But what do they get from wrestling. Nothing by WWE standars of course since they believe in media and Miz is media.

Yeah, the WWE only ever push media, huh? COME ON. Daniel Bryan is the world champion and he's hardly on talk shows, kids awards shows and radio interviews is he?

But also some stars don't get anything in return since they can become jobbers or laughing staucks

I'll use this to sum up and to respond at the same time: Even though indy stars don't always succeed (See Bourne, Evan) neither does every star who doesn't work the indies. But, by gaining experience via the indies, the wrestlers are in better positions (whether it be TNA, WWE or ROH) to break through the glass ceiling and not get stabbed on the way up there by Triple H's nose.

I'll await your reply eagerly.

 

[D-Man]

This debate has reached its deadline and is now closed.

Judges may do their thing.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Clarity- Rohan. By a fucking country mile. A lot of AM's stuff was indecipherable.

Punctuation- Seeing as Aweome_Miz bailed, obviously Rohan will get this one from me.

Informative- Seeing as Rohan was the only one to provide any true facts, he gets this one as well.

Persuasion- Again, Rohan by a long shot. This debate ending short was probably a blessing in disguise since I'm not too sure AM would have been able to bounce back anyway.

Nate scores it Rohan 5, Aweome_Miz 0.

 

[CH David]

Clarity - Yeah, didn't really see much from Aweome_Miz. Rojan had a nice opening.

Point - ¡Roján!

Punctuality - Well we already know this one.

Point - ¡Roján!

Informative - There weren't any outside sources, but Rojan didn't spew shit.

Point - ¡Roján!

Persuasion - Aweome_Miz did nothing to make us believe his side. Rojan did a solid job all around.

Points - ¡Roján!

CH David scores this ¡Roján! 5, Aweome_Miz 0.

 

[SavageTaker]

Clarity of debate - I didn't know what the hell Awesome_Miz was saying half the time. His opening post was better structured but not even that can make up for all of the errors throughout his post. Guys, having clarity means that we can understand what you're trying to say that. If you can't do that then you're simply not going to get the point here. Also, this is a debate, not a 3 or 5 paragraph essay. Feel free to experiment with your opening posts. They don't have to be structured a specific way like an essay would be. Just make sure it flows and makes sense.

Punctuality - Awesome_Miz bailed and as a result doesn't get the point here.

Informative - Rojan brought in past names and explained how them being in the indies helped them. The wrestlers he used where relevant to his point and he made sure to point out how they were relevant to what he was saying so he gets the point.

Persuasion - Rojan gets the point here considering we never even saw the whole debate and Awesome_Miz didn't do a good job in his rebuttal.

Rojan: 5 points, A_M: 0 points. I think I just saved Funkay from even having to go through this "debate." I put debate in quotation marks because I don't think it can even be considered that.

 

[D-Man]

What a massacre...

A landslide like this only happens once or twice per year, so this is a rarity. I'm not sure whether to give Rohan credit or just facepalm at Aweome_Miz.

Either way, Rohan has clinched this bracket with a score of 15-0 and will move onto Winner's bracket #13 to face nightmare while Aweome_Miz drops down to Loser's bracket #9 to face Mr. Steve.