First and foremost, I think the debate question needs to be repeated here...
Who made wrestlings Golden Age? Vince McMahon or Hulk Hogan
OK, so I'm guessing you're saying made means created? I think made means something different. I think it implies who was responsible for the massive growth. By your definition the writers made the Golden Era. But someone had to deliver the promise that began in the back room. That person was Hogan.
Many of the arguments that FTS made here were spawn from Hogan's star power. Once again, if anyone was a "catalyst" in making the Golden Age of professional wrestling (as you keep repeating), it was Hogan.
As much as I know all of our readers would enjoy a linguistics debate, I would still argue that someone had to execute the plans.
I know that a lot of times in debates one person will put words in the other debater's mouth, and I feel it's being done here. Let's not think for one second that I don't give Hogan credit where credit is due. The role he played in helping Vince make the Golden Age was HUGE... but like I said, he only played a part in it.
I never said that at all. I never said you didn't give Hogan the credit. I never said Vince didn't deserve any of it either. I just feel that it's a 51-49 debate, and Hogan deserves the 51.
I don't remember saying that Vince came before wrestling... I said Vince's business deals and inner workings came FAR before Hogan was thrusted into the spotlight by Vince to give him the opportunity to shine.
Semantics. But you are right. Vince thrust Hogan into the spotlight, like he thrust HBK into the spot light. Who succeeded? Hogan. Why? Because he is a star, and can carry a promotion on his back. HBK's back broke.
I'll bring the lube.
Well, this completely proves that without Vince's business sense, dreams, goals, and drives there wouldn't be a product like there is today, or the one that was made back in the 80's. So where does Hogan come into this? Vince brough him in after building the conglomerate called Titan Sports, beginning his monopoly of the different wrestling territories, and using his marketability to create a nationally syndicated television product to showcase his top stars.
But Vince's business sense merely provided a canvas. I'm sorry, but Van Gogh was the star, Da Vinci was the star, not the loom operator who gave them a medium. The paint mixer wasn't the star. Da Vinci.
But how can the art sell if it isn't displayed somewhere that gains attention. Why don't you show me the last time a painting became known as a worldly masterpiece by being sold at a garage sale or out of the back of someone's Buick Skylark. They buy it because it's able to be displayed in the most famous art galleries in the world, which raises its price and worth. This is called "marketing" or "promoting", which Vince is a master at.
But how can a gallery stay open without masterpieces to show? What is the draw to an art gallery if it's a bunch of finger paintings?
Austin and The Rock being compared to Hogan? Sorry, but awful comparisons. Wrestlers are NOTHING without their promoters. Where would these stars be without Vince??
OK, fine, Vince made Austin and The Rock. Hogan made Vince.
Seriously... You forget the fact that Hogan and Austin began in different territories and made nothing of themselves while there.
I wouldn't say nothing. Hogan was huge in Japan. And remember, this is in a day where everyone started someone else. It's true that Vince gave them the venue on which to excel, but do you honestly think that the product would have taken off the way it did with Piper in Hogan's place? There's no way. Hogan's charisma is what made the product take off. Vince deserves a lot of the credit, but in this instance, I think that Hogan's charisma, timing, and delivery made Vince's gamble pay off.
Austin began in the WCCW. And I know what you're thinking... he was just starting out. And you'd be right... however, Austin also went into WCW, and despite his best efforts, couldn't break through the glass ceiling since Bischoff and company was keeping him down. Then he went to ECW and was pushed as one of their main-event stars, but he still couldn't get the job done and ECW wasn't big enough for Austin to get anywhere. So Austin went to the largest promotion built from the ground-up by McMahon (the WWE), but under the "Ringmaster" moniker and, you guessed it, went NOWHERE. That is, until Vince gave the green light on allowing Austin to be what he wanted to be, which was the character that everyone loved. So, Vince MADE Austin.
Austin made himself a star after he won King of the Ring. I know, Vince booked him to do so. But, Vince booked Mabel to win, and he never took off. Vince booked Hogan to be at the top of the company, but he also booked HBK, Warrior, HHH, and Cena to be at the top, and none of them could duplicate the success of The Hulkster. You can combine timing with Vince's vision all you want. Someone had to be there to take the reigns and gallop into the limelight, and that was Hogan.
The Rock wasn't much different. He was born and bred in the WWE. He was given a character to run with and couldn't get the job done, so Vince gave his blessing for him to try taking a different direction.
Right, he said, "Hey Rocky, go out there and be you, because my idea failed." Vince's vision here was a failure. Vince has had more misses than hits over time, it's just that his three biggest hits were Hogan, Austin, and The Rock, all of whom were given the power to be themselves and determine their direction. If Vince having a Laissez-Faire attitude with his biggest stars is what should give him credit, I think we're putting the cart before the horse.
This is where the wrestlers do their part in building up the business of professional wrestling. Of course, they choose what kind of a personality to give to their characters, but Vince gives the final word on whether it can, will, and should be used. when it comes to the WWE, Vince makes the world go round.
But just giving them a gimmick doesn't always do it. Dustin Rhodes made Golddust work. Randy Savage made the Macho Man work. If Vince was truly this gifted persona giver, Savio Vega, Justin Credible, Rocky Maivia, etc. would have worked. Vince fails as much as he succeeds. His success are due to the astronomical amount of charisma that his top stars have, and his forcing himself to sit back and let them run with it.
Onto Hogan... did you ever hear of Hogan when he was in New Japan? How about the AWA?
Wasn't born yet.
Even after Hogan made a cameo in Rocky III he went right back to performing on the smaller stage. The man got worldwide television exposure in a movie and couldn't capitalize on it because he wasn't a marketing machine like Vince. He got every opportunity in the world to become what Vince made him into, but he couldn't do it alone.
OK, so Vince is a great promoter. I already agreed with you there. Vince's promotional skills helped get the undercard over, but Hogan was the top draw, and it was because of how he played the character. When he is on the mic or in the ring, Vince's job is done. He has to execute. He put those people in the seats.
So, just because you mention "inflation," do you think this explains to everyone how different the times are now?? It isn't just a money issue when you try to compare Cena to Hogan. Back in the 80's, there were only about 50 channels (at best) on your television set to choose from for television programming.
But wrestling was mostly syndicated, so it was harder to find. People made a point of finding Hogan.
It's simple mathematics that prove that Hulk Hogan was MUCH easier to put in front of all of our faces back then. Now, there are close to 1000 channels on television. Without Vince McMahon, half of the world wouldn't have a clue of who John Cena was. He's been on TON of television programs, movies, talk shows, etc. and there are tons of people out there that STILL haven't heard of him. That's because it so much more difficult to cover the market these days.
OK, so Vince made Cena. You can even say Vince made Hogan. But once Hogan was made, he pulled the WWF into the golden age. Being popular is one thing, being popular and doing something with it is another. Hogan did something with it.
In the Golden Age, Hulk Hogan was only a few clicks away. And he was put on those channels because of Vince's marketing genuis.
Vince is a great promoter, but no one can promote something that isn't awesome. Billy Mays could never have made KoKo B. Ware the star Hogan was.
This has little to nothing to do with the subject at hand. How does this prove that Hogan made the Golden Age? All this says is that by the time this incident occurred, Hogan had already capitalized on the fame that Vince has built for him throughout the 80's by creating Wrestlemania, syndication for his television programs, and the entire wrestling organization that made Hogan in the first place.
But we're not debating who made whom, we're debating that once they were both made, who had more responsibility for the boom period resulting from the success of Wrestlemania. Hogan slamming Andre is something that Andre had to agree to and Hogan had to execute, with a hernia. This is the most iconic image in wrestling. This is what made the Golden Age. Vince's ideas were huge, absolutely necessary, to make it happen, but I argue that he needed the right person to execute the ideas. There was no one else on the roster that could have executed the ideas so well and with such massive appeal as Hogan. They were both necessary to the boom period, but Vince could not have done it without Hogan, and I think Hogan DID do it, a few years later, without Vince. Vince and Hogan may have made each other, but Hogan
started both boom periods, and Vince capitalized on the errors of WCW to overtake them, but did not in fact start the Golden Age. He finished it.
Once again, I will never downplay Hogan's role in the the WWF during the Golden Age. However, I must disagree about the people being there to see "one man." Vince's product stretches far beyond ONE wrestler on the roster
I don't think it was one man, I think it was two. I just think Hogan was more responsible.
Hogan was NOTHING without guys like Orndorf, Piper, Andre the Giant, King Kong Bundy, Randy Savage... should I go on? And who brought all of them in and spit out the storylines for Hogan to feud with them? Vince did.
I think that those guys, with the exception of Andre, were nothing without Hogan. IN the 80's people went to shows to see the characters. Hogan was the top character, and he filled the areans that Vince paid for. He painted on the canvas Vince made. He laid the egg, scrambled it, ate the chicken, and then made more.
Honestly, I LOVE Hulk Hogan. And I can always appreciate what he has done for the wrestling business, but come on now. Let's get real. The REAL man behind everything that has to do with the first major "BOOM" of professional wrestling (a.k.a. Golden Age) was Vince. No pieces to the puzzle would have been put in place without Vince. Hogan was brought into the right place at the right time by Vince. Hogan didn't carry a company on his shoulders for an entire decade on his own by ONLY walking out to a ring, tearing his shirt off, and posing. He needed OTHER talent to make the formula work. Vince hired and molded this talent.
Well, yes, heroes do need villains. I grant you that. But what made them villainous? It was their opposition of Hogan that made them evil. The Macho Man, kayfabe, may have been in the right in his feud against Hogan, but Hogan's star power did more to turn Savage than Savage's actions.
No I wouldn't. And I feel this way not just because this is a debate. These are not just words... I TRULY feel Vince is the man that made me watch what I watch and love what I love. You're just fooling yourself and everyone reading if you say otherwise... they all know it, too.
That is quite an indictment. I do appreciate your confidence in my ability to fool the people, but that is not my intent.
You're taking my words completely out of context. If you read the rest of that section, you'd realize that I was speaking on behalf of Hogan's inability to pass credit of his successes onto the REAL hero, Vince McMahon.
And vice cersa. These men have the two biggest egos in the world.
And I understand why Hogan feels this way, this proves my point about what makes him such a self-centered businessman. Vince made Hogan... Hogan just continues to bite the hand that feeds.
Then maybe Vince should stop offering his hand to Hogan?
First of all, you just contradicted yourself.
No I didn't. You didn't read carefully enough.
You just said people had to go to bars to see it, yet they didn't travel outside of their homes??
You got it wrong. I said people went to the bars to see Hogan. The reason they left their homes was not see Ali sitting ringside. Is that phrased a little bit easier? Read the whole sentence. I think it flows fine, but the point still stands. Ali was a side attraction. People went to see Hogan, Ali's being there just made it seem like it was a bigger deal. Hogan was the reason people saw Ali there, not the other way around.
And if they didn't see it, how was it such a global success?
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I never said no saw it. I said no one watched it too see Liberace. They watched it to see Hogan.
Absolutely. I think anyone could've played that role if they were put in it. What makes Hogan so special? What was so "Rock and Roll" about Hulk Hogan? He was only an actor. He was molded into that gimmick and given the opportunity to do so by Vince McMahon.
You don't honestly think anyone could have done it. You can't. How do you explain the ratings and buyrate failures of HBK, Warrior, and to a certain extent Bret Hart
Yeah, Vince's camera. And he never would've been put there without Vince.
Well, the NFL provides the football. Did they make the game a phenomenon, or did the speed and talent of the players. If anyone could do it as long as the venue was provided, why don't you and I rent out Reliant Stadium and buy some panties and go at it? Because we are not Hulk Hogan.
Wait... Did you interview Lauper or something? This was nothing more than good marketing. Lauper must have been paid for her Wrestlemania appearence, and Vince signed the check. You're acting like she did it for charity of something. If you can prove otherwise, then you got me here.
You are so far away from the spirit of the debate here. The celebrities went got paid, fine. the rub from being associated with Hulk Hogan was far bigger to them. Let me ask you a question. In the 1980's do you think a larger segment of the MTV audience watched wrestling, or the wrestling audience watching Lauper? I would venture it was the former. It was beneficial for these celebrities to be associated with Hogan.
Lauper had the #1 pop song in America at the time, and she "needed the Hogan rub"?
Chumawumba had the number one song at one point. Lauper needed to be exposed to a new audience. More MTV watchers, a young demographic, watched wrestling, than wrestling fans, at the time an older demographic, watched MTV.
Mr. T was co-starring on the A-Team and co-starred in Rocky III, but he "needed the Hogan rub"??
Hogan was bigger at the time, Mr T was huge, but Hogan was bigger.
Liberaci, a living legend, "needed the Hogan rub"?
He was past his prime, so yes.
Ali was the most famous boxer of all time, and he "needed the Hogan rub"?!?
No, but WM did serve to remind the public of his greatness. For him, it was legacy building.
What does kayfabe have to do with anything? I'm not understanding your point of how it downfalls him in this debate. All I know is that Vince McMahon promoted his product. He had the right to do it in ANY way that he saw fit, as long as it generated revenue and growth. Keeping to kayfabe obviously worked in this case.
By your logic, Sony made Mariah Carey, not her talents. Except that she has number one hits, so she's a big deal on her own. Apparently the talents of Cyndi Lauper made her a star, but the talents of Hulk Hogan didn't.
Watch any MTV retrospective. The board members will say that, yeah, they provided a venue for the artists, but the artists made the network. Michael Jackson, Cyndi Lauper, they made MTV. In much the same way, Hogan....
Ric Flair was a completely different story than Hulk Hogan. I give Ric Flair the credit where it's due for selling that many seats in North Korea. As a matter of fact, the NWA sold out MANY arenas before Vince's marketing machine kicked them to the curb. However, all of these venues and sellouts did not create an entire era. Vince did with his vision.
It just goes to show that the stars draw the ticket sales, the viewers, the merchandise sales. Vince makes the shirts, but Hogan sells them.
Now this is just a crazy "pie-in-the-sky" hypothesis. She used Wrestlemania to be bigger than MJ?? Come on now... Wrestlemania wasn't the event that it is today; A PPV that is almost guaranteed to gain revenue and worldwide television exposure. Back in 1983, Wrestlemania was a myth... and idea. No one had any idea that it would turn out to be what it is today. Vince even said it himself.
Awesome. I'm glad you said this. What made it the success it is today. HULK HOGAN!!! Case closed.
He put everything he had on the line and took a MAJOR gamble and it paid off. Do you really think that Cyndi Lauper was banking on its success on the level that you're suggesting? I highly doubt that.
I never said that she banked on that one appearance making her that big. The entire Rock n Wrestling angle was supposed to help her. It did, for a time. Her annoying voice was her downfall.
Once again, Vince didn't know anything. He took a risk. At the time, Hogan was the best card that he could play. Vince wanted to create a hero and Hogan was Vince's biggest babyface. Obviously, this never would have worked if a heel was put in Hogan's place. Which brings me to...
It wouldn't have worked if anyone was in Hogan's place. This is evidenced by the string of failures between Hogan and Austin.
Is this a serious question? Why would Vince gamble his entire company on a heel character when his goal was to create a new era of wrestling; one that would motivate younger viewers with athleticism, role models, and larger-than-life superHERO characters?? He didn't want to portray the horrible image of a villain leading his company into the promise land. Vince thrusted Hogan into the spotlight and created a chain reaction that gave birth to a new superstar. Once again, Vince made Hogan.
Once Hogan was in the spotlight, he had to do something with it. He did what NO ONE ELSE could have done.
Vince isn't perfect, and neither are you, me OR Hogan. He's human, he took a risk and it didn't pay off. That was a mere speedbump in his conquest for total domination of the wrestling industry. However, he appeared to learn from his mistakes, wouldn't you say?
Wholeheartedly. But how long did it take to replicate that success? And once he did, he was still succeeding by playing off of Hogan.
This debate isn't about the stars who people tuned in to watch Wrestlemania for. It's about who made/created an era. Hell, we all know that people don't watch 24 to see Joel Surnow and Robert Cochran. They tune in to see Jack Bauer. But Jack Bauer didn't make 24... Keifer Sutherland merely acted in it. The same goes for Terry Bolea/Hulk Hogan.
Jack Bauer does make that show. He is the central character. He is the draw. He didn't CREATE the show. He MAKES it what it is. He is why people watch.
Maybe not when talking about a painting. But when people talk about who made the light bulb, they speak about Thomas Edison... not GE.
Exactly, the man....not the company. Thanks.
And when it comes to a world television conglomerate like Titan Sports and the WWE, people talk about Vince McMahon. Turn on any news channel such as ESPN, ABC, NBC, take your pick... when they mention the WWE's inception, do they talk about Hulk Hogan creating it? Hell no. They all say one name... McMahon.
You're taking this off topic. Use context clues. We aren't talking about who created the WWE. That's not debatable. We're talking about who was more responsible for the boom period of the 80's.
I guess that means that Forrest Griffin is the Hulk Hogan of the UFC, right? I mean he's the one that won the big fight at the end of the Ultimate Fighter, creating the chain reaction of great ratings and blowing the UFC into the stratusphere. God forbid we give Dana White any credit, right??
No, but where would Dana White be if he was promoting me vs. you. It's the fighters. It's Brock Lesnar. He's the draw. Why are you trying to debate creation over responsibility. Up at the top, you were debating that Vince was responsible, which is the point. Down here, you're trying to say that Vince made the company so he made the Golden Era. We know that Vince made the company. It's just that what Hogan did for that company was more responsible for the boom
Entertainment versus mainstream sports. Apples and Oranges.
OK, so in one sentence, you compare the WWE to the UFC, a sport, and in the next, you say they can't be compared? WTF? Now that's not an attempt to put me into an unfair premise is it? Still, I ask, when was the last time a GM, the man who put the players into their roles, won World Series MVP?
I said it before and Ill say it again
this is a different time, different era, different market, and a different audience. John Cena is doing things no differently than Hogan did. If Hogan began his career in todays market, hed be a complete and utter failure and you know it.
Hogan started this era. Most of these characters are toned down Attitude characters.
And if Wrestlemania was on every week with no off seasons and brand new episodes, while competing with over 900 other channels to watch, all happening for the past 16 years, Im sure that the heads of the PPV channel would be singing the same tune.
OK, once again, you're struggling with context. I am saying that the success of Hogan is what gave Raw the capital to go in and ask for a Prime Time Slot.
Twisting my analogy into a funny little quip does not make it true, nor does it make it gain validity. Vince pulled Hogans strings in every way, shape and form. Vince approved everything Hogan was to say, wear, and do while being on a WWF platform. Vinces father gave Hogan his name. Vince gave Hogan a title belt. Vince gave Hogan a main event spot in the biggest show he ever promoted. Vince made everything about Hogan, and he is the egg. That may not sound as cute as your comment, but it sure makes more sense.
Are you really talking about trying to be cute when your whole first post was analogy filled and based on chickens, eggs, and paintings? I like you man, but it seems like what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander here. But I still argue, that no one else could have taken the reigns the way Hogan did and do what he did with the company. If it was that easy, Vince would never ratings dips, HBK would be on the same level as Hogan. Instead, Vince succeeded with and then lost to Hogan. Hogan is the catalyst behind the last two boom periods. It doesn't matter what's written if it can't be executed properly on TV. No one else could have executed like Hogan.
Once again, it was a totally different market back then with SO many factors that come into play, all of which I wont repeat again. As for him not repeating his success again, I think the Attitude Era was successful enough to prove your theory incorrect.
But all he did was leach off of of Hogan until Bischoff fucked up and then seized control again. Hogan started the Attitude Era, in WCW.
That era made a TON more money than the Golden Age ever did and that is the name of the game. And the popularity of that era came from competition with a rival promotion
not a single superstar.
Does WCW ever come close to competing without Hogan? Fuck no.
So this proves that one pro-wrestler doesnt make an era
a promotion does. This promotion is Vince McMahons creation, from top to bottom.
Quite the opposite. The promotion might be Vince's, but those checks he cashes came on the back of the Hulkster.
And I still think the exact opposite. Hence, our debate.
Thank goodness. This is fun though, huh?
Once again, leave it to you to take the last sentence of that paragraph and take it completely out of context. Prior my statement in regards to longevity, I was explaining about how Vince took a product that was localized in different territories and shown on only local television stations and built it so it could be accessible to the rest of the world. He took Hulk Hogan and presented him to the worldwide audience for all of you to begin to know and love. And if it werent for Vince, we wouldnt be able to continue to view it to this day.
True. Hogan made the boom, and Vince sustained it's momentum through peaks and valleys. They both deserve quite a bit of credit. But everything you said is not about the Golden Era. Hogan's ability to get people to rally behind him is what made that era.
This is the most agreeable thing stated throughout this entire debate. Its true in every sense of the phrase.
It's what makes this contentious. There are plenty of arguments on both side.
Nah, Vince created the egg that hatched Hogan. He is the God of professional wrestling.
But, while he created the WWE, it's massive spike in success during the early and mid 80's was due to Hogan.
And Vince also created the egg that hatched the Gobbledygooker. Let's not forget that Vince's vision sometimes gets in the way of his thinking.
When you make something, you create it. The thing that was created was an era. Hogan didn't create anything. There is no amount of debating that can change the fact that Vince McMahon MADE wrestling, MADE Wrestlemania, and MADE the Golden Age of wrestling.
Earlier you said he didn't make wrestling. You said:
I don't remember saying that Vince came before wrestling... I said Vince's business deals and inner workings came FAR before Hogan was thrusted into the spotlight by Vince to give him the opportunity to shine.
Vince created Wrestlemania, Hogan made it the spectacle that it is. And the Golden Age existed on the back of Hogan.
lmao