Week 5: The D-Man -versus- Phoenix

Mr. TM

Throwing a tantrum
Who was more unprofessional: Akira Maeda or Bruiser Brody?

Phoenix is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific
 
I will debate the side that Akira Maeda was more unprofessional than Bruiser Brody.

I choose to let D-Man to go first.

Looking forward to debating with you!
 
Sorry about the delay... I couldn't get to this until this morning and now all of a sudden it's busy as hell at work. I'll do my best to respond sometime before the day's over. Phoenix, I'm really looking forward to doing battle, my friend!
 
So, after days and days of bullshit outside of Wrestlezone, I'm finally able to provide my response to the thread topic. I apologize for the delay once again... it could not be helped.

Bruiser Brody was the most unprofessional figure in the history of pro-wrestling

It appears as if this week's debate is about two of the most controversal professional wrestlers in history. And I must be honest... I knew very little about them until I did my research. (For the record, this is what I love about this Debator's League... it forces me to study and learn more about pro-wrestling.) From what I gathered, Maeda and Brody were infamous for "refusing to job" to their opponents. Now, I understand that the majority of readers on this site probably know what this means, but for newcomers to the spectacle of professional wrestling, I'll define the phrase for you.

"Refusal to Job" - Refusing to lose to an opponent, as pre-determined by the booker of the wrestling event.

Our candidates in this debate both showed their unprofessionalism by refusing to job on different occasions. Their actions were inexcusable, despicable, and self-centered.

Akira Maeda
Maeda was a star in New Japan and began his career there in 1978. He was involved in a real-life feud with New Japan's head booker, Antonio Inoki, after refusing to enter a potential money-making program with him.

In 1986, Maeda was involved in a match with Andre the Giant. Andre was assured by Inoki that he was to win the matchup, but Maeda "refused to job" to him. The two engaged in a shoot matchup with real kicks, punches, and wrestling holds. After 30 minutes, Andre decided that the only way to end the match was to lay down and allow his opponent to pin him (even though he was clearly winning the shoot match) but Maeda refused. This caused Inoki to come to the ring and suddenly end the match, much to the bewilderment of the audience.

Maeda's most famous moment came while he was involved in a six-man tag match in November of 1987. While Riki Chōshū (one of his partners) was putting Osamu Kido (one os his opponents) into a Scorpion Death Lock, Maeda shoot-kicked Chōshū in the face, breaking his orbital bone. Chōshū would be sidelined for a month due to the injury abnd Maeda would later on be suspended and fired, as a result.

Bruiser Brody
Brody was a former star of famous wrestling organizations in the United States such as the NWA, WWWF, WCCW, AWA, and Deep South Wrestling. He was also revered in Japan and was in a dominant tag team along side "The Lariat" Stan Hansen. Even though he achieved global fame, most wrestling promoters at the time considered him as a liability, due to his "refusal to job" to other wrestlers. For example, while wrestling for New Japan, he was in a brief feud with the legendary Antonio Inoki. However, most of their matches ended up in a disqualification or no-contest since neither man was willing to put the other over.

In 1987, Brody was involved in a steel cage matchup with Lex Luger. At the time, Luger was still 'green' in the business and not familiar with some wrestlers' styles. When the match was announced, Luger would get taunted and teased about Brody's violent nature in the ring. During the same time, Brody had issues with Luger's ego concerning putting other wrestlers over. So, after their match began, Brody stood still and completely no-sold Luger's offense, due to his "refusal to job." Shortly after, Luger left the ring in the middle of the match, frustrated about Brody's actions.

Brody later informed Luger that his "refusal to job" and to no-sell was not personal, but had to do with payment and booking issues. Luger claims that Brody told him it had to do with his portrayal as a babyface in Texas versus being a heel in Florida (where the steel cage match was held).

Who was more unprofessional?
In order to truly answer this question, you have to understand a few of the levels of professionalism within the world of pro-wrestling.

Wrestling is a business that has been built on respect and swallowing your pride to allow others to elevate you to a new level. The way you lose a match in pro-wrestling is just as (if not MORE) important than how you win a matchup. Wrestling schools always teach their students that you must allow your opponent to dictate how far you are to succeed in the business by making them look as strong as you can while they do the same for you. Any wrestler can go out to a ring, crush their opponent, and walk back to the locker room. However, if you're facing a strong opponent (by making them look strong), you leave the match elevated higher than you were going into it. Each wrestler is given some of the responsibility of promoting their opponents' careers by telling a story in the ring.

This was the major problem for Brody and Maeda. They believed that the only way to the top was to win as many of their matchups as possible, and win convincingly. They refused to care about the future careers of anyone besides themselves. And while both of them acted in some of the most unprofessional moments in history, Bruiser Brody will go down in history as the most unprofessional.

**Before I explain my reasoning, first I would like to say that IN NO WAY do I condone ANYTHING that either of these men have done in the past.**

Since both wrestlers being debated have been proven to equally “refuse to job” to their opponents, this debate on unprofessionalism must focus on Maeda’s stiff wrestling versus Brody’s no-selling.

Akira Maeda is guilty of "refusal to job," as well as blatantly injuring one of his opponents because of his own personal conflicts with his booking agent. One of the unspoken oaths in pro-wrestling is to try and make matches look as real as possible while taking your opponents physical health into consideration. In other words, make it look like you’re hurting your opponent without actually hurting them! Maeda broke this “oath” by breaking his opponent’s orbital bone in the middle of a match with a stiff kick. However, in the eyes of the audience, this was just part of the matchup, and they were all entertained, regardless.

Stiff wrestling, as unprofessional as it may be, is also an intricate part of the sport. Injuries often come as a result of stiff wrestling. However, injuries also come with the territory of being a professional wrestler. On the flip side, stiff wrestling breaks a new barrier of realism for wrestling matches and provides the audience with a better match psychology, thus making it easier for them to suspend their disbelief during a wrestling matchup. Maeda’s stiffness caused his opponent to be seriously injured, but in the eyes of the audience, it was still a physical wrestling move that entertained them.

On the other hand, Bruiser Brody not only “refused to job” to his opponents and worked stiff with most of them, but he no-sold Lex Luger’s offense in the middle of a main event matchup, causing Luger to leave the ring. As Vince McMahon has stated on many occasions, a promoter’s main focus is on the professional wrestling audience. No matter what may or may not occur during a live event, the show must go on and a promoter must present what has been advertised. When Bruiser Brody no-sold to Lex Luger, he robbed the audience of their entertainment. Not only did he make Luger, Inoki, and himself look like a fool, but he dishonored and embarrassed the spectacle and sport of professional wrestling as a whole.

"No selling" (as defined by Wikipedia) - giving no reaction to another wrestler's offense or moves.

This is the equivalent of a magician revealing their secrets on stage during one of their acts. It is taboo in the wrestling industry, since it robs the audience of their 'suspense of disbelief' in order to fully enjoy the entertainment aspect of the product. No selling is controversial, self-centered, unprofessional, and extremely frowned upon in pro-wrestling. It makes the wrestler performing the no sell and the opponent at the expense of the no sell look weak, fake, and causes a break in their character, which severely jeopardizes their future in trying to build that character into a formidable opponent for others.

So, in closing, both wrestlers were OBVIOUSLY unprofessional in their careers. Both men have clearly “refused to job” to their opponents. They also both committed acts of “stiff wrestling.” But only one of them disgraced the entertainment of professional wrestling as a whole while robbing the audience of their entertainment value and the money that they paid to witness these unprofessional instances… that person was Bruiser Brody.

Good luck to you, Phoenix!!
 
Firstly, I must say DAMN. That was a brilliant opening post. No wonder your sig holds so true on many occasions! No worries about the delay, it was worth it for a post like that...damn!

While I do agree this debate goes on the grounds of no selling vs. stiff wrestling. Naturally we have to view the two in an objective manner as you approached.

Selling is a key part of wrestling, naturally, but where week in week out we will note of whether a wrestler is selling or not, it comes more down to their reputation to do this or not. While Bruiser Brody refused to sell and job in their matches, so did the majority of guys in WCW. Would this put Brody's professionalism on the same term as Hulk Hogan? A guy who refused to sell for the guys who were "lower" than him in the ranks of that company. While selling does play a key role, it does seem to play the manner of personal preference over the guy they're facing.

Compare that with stiff wrestling/shooting, naturally wrestling has its injuries, much like any sport, but when you have a guy break the "oath" of working a great match without injury as you rightly put it, this is where not only the unwritten code is broken, but careers and lives are at stake here. If there's one thing you must be as a wrestler to sell a great match is to trust your opponent, where no selling might hurt an ego or mentality of a match, stiff wrestling is where the injuries can come. Yes, in the case of Akira Maeda, he may have broken an orbital bone, but the fact is, because of this, the company loses a member of its roster for a while because of the stiff work.

While I agree that Brody is quite unprofessional as a wrestler, the fact is, his approach couldn't have affected the trust of his opponents to not be injured by him, it will affect the ability to be trusted to sell a match for entertainment, but to get injured simply because your opponent didn't like you? No one deserves that. Yes, wrestling has its costs with injuries, but even where some are accidental, it shouldn't be determined because a guy went beyond an oath and injured you because of it, that would be the same for me as a guy in football/soccer lunging in two footed because he meant to hurt him, it's disgraceful!

When comparing the two infamous matches (Brody/Lugar & Akira/Andre) where Brody may have not selled during the match, the fact is that the match still ended, the professional was broken in the chemistry and it pissed people off in the back. In comparison, Akira's made with Andre got to a point where he nearly pushed Andre to the point of going to crush his head in the ring. This match ended up getting stopped because these two refused to go down and even when Andre did, Maeda still refused to pin him, it went beyond professionalism to the point that he was gifted the win but still wouldn't take it, watch it below, it's messed up truly!

[youtube]/v/wYYdQL_SKoA&hl=en&fs=1&[/youtube]

Problem is, had Akira Maeda not innovated stiff wrestling, would it still occur today? Even some of the top guys in WWE wrestle stiff to teach the rookies a lesson, Triple H admits he does this if they don't sell and Hardcore Holly got injured as a result of working stiff through sandbagging because he didn't like Brock Lesnar. Where the last example was working stiff got the guy doing it injured, the fact is, it affects a wrestler more than a standard match should.

There's not selling a match which ceases entertainment compared to someone possibly getting injured because a guy went beyond the unwritten code. I would rather see a match have a sell go wrong than see a guy be taken out through carelessness of an opponent's welfare. This is why, in my opinion, Akira Maeda is more unprofessional than Bruiser Brody
 
Firstly, I must say DAMN. That was a brilliant opening post. No wonder your sig holds so true on many occasions! No worries about the delay, it was worth it for a post like that...damn!

Thank you, friend. And I'll tell ya, your reply is another tough one, but I think I'm up for the challenge.

While I do agree this debate goes on the grounds of no selling vs. stiff wrestling. Naturally we have to view the two in an objective manner as you approached.

Correct-a-mundo.

Selling is a key part of wrestling, naturally, but where week in week out we will note of whether a wrestler is selling or not, it comes more down to their reputation to do this or not. While Bruiser Brody refused to sell and job in their matches, so did the majority of guys in WCW. Would this put Brody's professionalism on the same term as Hulk Hogan? A guy who refused to sell for the guys who were "lower" than him in the ranks of that company. While selling does play a key role, it does seem to play the manner of personal preference over the guy they're facing.

I kind of see where you're coming from with this. However, you really can't put Brody in the same category as Hulk Hogan. No-selling was a part of Hogan's character and a part of the story that he told in a ring during a matchup. He didn't no-sell his opponents' offense because he was trying to keep them down... he did it because it was a part of his in-ring psycology. He might have kept other talent on the roster down behind the scenes with his politics, but he was a consumate professional in the ring and told an amazing, emotional story that the audience paid to see. Brody was the exact opposite. He wasted the audience's money.

Your comparison is apples and oranges.

Compare that with stiff wrestling/shooting, naturally wrestling has its injuries, much like any sport, but when you have a guy break the "oath" of working a great match without injury as you rightly put it, this is where not only the unwritten code is broken, but careers and lives are at stake here.
Yes, in the case of Akira Maeda, he may have broken an orbital bone, but the fact is, because of this, the company loses a member of its roster for a while because of the stiff work.

Very true. Like I said earlier, I'm not saying that stiff wrestling/shooting should be condoned by ANYONE, but it's a part of the sport that adds realism to the product. Some take it too far IMO (i.e. Brody, Maeda, Hardcore Holly, Kurt Angle, etc.) but it's accepted amongst most of the workers. In the case of Maeda, there is no doubt that it was taken too far and was completely unprofessional. However, while the audience may have suffered during the aftermath, they see it as yet another injury in the sport. However, when a wrestler just stands in the middle of a ring during a live event and doesn't even flinch when his opponent is laying offense into him, this not only confuses a crowd and kills their suspense of disbelief, but it reveals the "magic" that is professional wrestling. Furthermore, not only does it rob them of a great match during the current show, but it also makes them think twice about purchasing a ticket to an event in the future.

If there's one thing you must be as a wrestler to sell a great match is to trust your opponent, where no selling might hurt an ego or mentality of a match, stiff wrestling is where the injuries can come.

I think you're downplaying the severity of no-selling in order to make your point seem stronger. Like I explained earlier, injuries are a common part of the sport. Breaking character and the harmony of a wrestling show is not.

While I agree that Brody is quite unprofessional as a wrestler, the fact is, his approach couldn't have affected the trust of his opponents to not be injured by him, it will affect the ability to be trusted to sell a match for entertainment, but to get injured simply because your opponent didn't like you? No one deserves that. Yes, wrestling has its costs with injuries, but even where some are accidental, it shouldn't be determined because a guy went beyond an oath and injured you because of it, that would be the same for me as a guy in football/soccer lunging in two footed because he meant to hurt him, it's disgraceful!

Once again, I agree with this. However, this still doesn't prove that working stiff is worse than completely no-selling an opponent's offense during a live match.

Another way that I can prove my point is by looking at things this way... stiff working/shooting has a high probability of injuring someone. But standing in a ring during a live match and completely no-selling an opponent's offense will ALWAYS bewilder an audience and ruin a wrestling show.

When comparing the two infamous matches (Brody/Lugar Akira/Andre) where Brody may have not selled during the match, the fact is that the match still ended, the professional was broken in the chemistry and it pissed people off in the back. In comparison, Akira's made with Andre got to a point where he nearly pushed Andre to the point of going to crush his head in the ring. This match ended up getting stopped because these two refused to go down and even when Andre did, Maeda still refused to pin him, it went beyond professionalism to the point that he was gifted the win but still wouldn't take it, watch it below, it's messed up truly!

I'm not sure where you were going here. It seemed as if you were going into the direction that Brody's match ended while Maeda's didn't. But, you went in a different direction throughout this paragraph. So I got a little lost in reading it, but I sort of saw your point.

To sum it up, both matches ended, but they both ended under major controversy. Both men performed despicable acts during a live event. But the injury that Maeda caused was not viewable to the audience. His kick was, but from the audience's perspective, Chōshū was just selling an offensive move. On the other hand, Brody completely broke character and caused Luger to the same and walk out in the middle of a cage match! Brody ruined the main event and quite possibly the entire experience for the audience, possibly causing a loss in viewers and fans in the future. Maeda's match ended just like a normal show should... Brody's didn't.

Problem is, had Akira Maeda not innovated stiff wrestling, would it still occur today?

He innovated stiff wrestling? I would have to disagree. Abused or took advantage might be better words here.

Even some of the top guys in WWE wrestle stiff to teach the rookies a lesson, Triple H admits he does this if they don't sell and Hardcore Holly got injured as a result of working stiff through sandbagging because he didn't like Brock Lesnar. Where the last example was working stiff got the guy doing it injured, the fact is, it affects a wrestler more than a standard match should.

But wrestling stiff is a part of a show that doesn't ruin the wrestling experience for the audience like Brody's actions did. In most cases, stiff wrestling improves a show. It enhances the realism that the show is trying to provide for its audience.

The audience is the lifeline of wrestling shows. Without them, you don't have a show. Therefore, this further proves that the consequences of Brody's actions were far more severe than Maeda's.

There's not selling a match which ceases entertainment compared to someone possibly getting injured because a guy went beyond the unwritten code. I would rather see a match have a sell go wrong than see a guy be taken out through carelessness of an opponent's welfare.

That's where we disagree. I would rather a show transpire with a POSSIBILITY of injury occurring instead of a show that is ruined by its wrestlers breaking character and reminding me that professional wrestling is fake, choreographed, and acted out. Brody revealed the sanctity, secrets and "magic" of professional wrestling and ruined the audience's experience, while Maeda only enhanced the product... a bit extremely, but he still enhanced it.

This is why, in my opinion, Akira Maeda is more unprofessional than Bruiser Brody

And I have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that Brody's actions were far more severe, detrimental, consequential, and unprofessional.
 
Thank you, friend. And I'll tell ya, your reply is another tough one, but I think I'm up for the challenge.

Likewise, getting a bit of a good flowing debate on a tight subject for sure!


I kind of see where you're coming from with this. However, you really can't put Brody in the same category as Hulk Hogan. No-selling was a part of Hogan's character and a part of the story that he told in a ring during a matchup. He didn't no-sell his opponents' offense because he was trying to keep them down... he did it because it was a part of his in-ring psycology. He might have kept other talent on the roster down behind the scenes with his politics, but he was a consumate professional in the ring and told an amazing, emotional story that the audience paid to see. Brody was the exact opposite. He wasted the audience's money.

But equally so did Maeda, his methods of shoot style wrestling would affect how things would pan out. Injurying Chōshū' was not part of the matches planned, naturally we don't know what was, but because of this audience's lost out because they would pay to see Chōshū', only their time and money was wasted for a month because they couldn't see one of the most influencial Japanese wrestlers because another guy took him out. While Brody wasted money for one match at least, Maeda had wasted a month's worth of money on top of two matches being ruined because of his ego and shoot methods.

Very true. Like I said earlier, I'm not saying that stiff wrestling/shooting should be condoned by ANYONE, but it's a part of the sport that adds realism to the product. Some take it too far IMO (i.e. Brody, Maeda, Hardcore Holly, Kurt Angle, etc.) but it's accepted amongst most of the workers. In the case of Maeda, there is no doubt that it was taken too far and was completely unprofessional.

Definitely agree there.

However, when a wrestler just stands in the middle of a ring during a live event and doesn't even flinch when his opponent is laying offense into him, this not only confuses a crowd and kills their suspense of disbelief, but it reveals the "magic" that is professional wrestling. Furthermore, not only does it rob them of a great match during the current show, but it also makes them think twice about purchasing a ticket to an event in the future.

But even so, Brody was sought out as a wrestler, he would still have arenas booked out to see him, but yet on the other end, Maeda was suspended and fired as a result of his carelessness towards another human being. That is a pure result of unprofessionalism, Brody was sought after still even after his antics with Luger, but Maeda was fired, he had to start his own company to put himself back over again. It's much like Mr. Kennedy was accused of nearly injurying Orton in his one match return and got fired because of it, yet when there's guys who don't sell, they'll get a telling off or maybe a warning. The fact is on the rare occasions when a legitmate injury may come from any unprofessionalism or endangering another carelessly, it costs them their job.

Brody ruined the main event and quite possibly the entire experience for the audience, possibly causing a loss in viewers and fans in the future. Maeda's match ended just like a normal show should... Brody's didn't.

Maeda's match with André wasn't one that ended like a normal, nor did it act like a normal show. People were questioning why the match was not worknig like a story being told. It wasn't worked, these two weren't playing off each other, and much like no-selling, it breaks character too because the rhythm of the match goes completely and whatever is planned doesn't go into place. André layed down when he was winning to stop the debate, where he was garanteed a win, he was professional enough to lay down for Maeda to pin him and he still didn't take it.

Both methods of unprofessional break the magic, but shooting in a match is where the rules go beyond just annoying your opponent, audience and backstage, it becomes a brawl more than anything, it takes it from a wrestling match to a simple "street fight", magic is broken because they aren't telling a story of wrestling, where no selling does similiar, it still says "this is a wrestling match" to the audience.

That's where we disagree. I would rather a show transpire with a POSSIBILITY of injury occurring instead of a show that is ruined by its wrestlers breaking character and reminding me that professional wrestling is fake, choreographed, and acted out. Brody revealed the sanctity, secrets and "magic" of professional wrestling and ruined the audience's experience, while Maeda only enhanced the product... a bit extremely, but he still enhanced it.

I disagree here, and as stated above, they both can be similiar taken, but no selling does break the magic, but equally shooting and wrestling stiff ruins match endings, affects momentum and also affects careers, if these didn't exist, there wouldn't be reminders of "Don't try this at home" because they don't know how to wrestle, which is affectly what wrestling stiff would be in some cases.

Another matter I wanted to bring is one person that links the two together. Antonio Inoki. Both our cases have had problems with this man, where Brody and Inoki refused to put each over in their matches, Maeda refused to work in a money making programme with Inoki, because Maeda refused to do so, he cost the company money because they couldn't give the feuds people wanted. Where unprofessionalism can affect the views of how the audience see wrestling, it also is about how the company is affected from not making the most out of the available roster they have.

In Summary
Whilst I agree with D-Man that Brody was unprofessional in his manner of no-selling moves in his matches, it does affect the match but it's a controversial subject of wrestling that still gets further debated as wrestlers of today like Triple H and Hulk Hogan are playing out this problem, whether they are professionals or not, no selling becomes a more accepted characteristic, regardless of whether it breaks the magic, the matches tend to continue and have a resulted finish.

On the opposite hand, shooting and wrestling stiff are parts of wrestling that are unplanned and dangerous when a wrestler begins to implement them in their system. It affects the careers of wrestlers who are hurt and injured by a man who shoots in wrestling, but it's break a code of trust and respect because the more a man becomes unsafe with this method of wrestling, the less likely people are to work with them.

In the case of Bruiser Brody vs. Akira Maeda, while both are unprofessional in their manner, Brody's manner of no selling did affect the chemistry and magic of wrestling, but he was still a highly sought out wrestler by all companies who tried to get him to pen in a contract until his unfortunate murder, compared to Maeda who got suspended and fired because of his actions and couldn't even find work with other companies, eventually he had to start his own company to put himself back on the map. Just look at the comparison there, surely the more unprofessional man would be the one people least want to work with because he is more dangerous and unreliable compared to man who may not sell the magic of wrestling, but it's a factor we accept nowadays.

Which is why I strongly believe that while Bruiser Brody was quite an unprofessional wrestler with his no selling, he's not as unprofessional as Akira Maeda, a man who wrestles in a dangerous manner of shooting in his matches and causes more controversy wherever he goes to the point where he can't even be hired!
 
But equally so did Maeda, his methods of shoot style wrestling would affect how things would pan out. Injurying Chōshū' was not part of the matches planned, naturally we don't know what was, but because of this audience's lost out because they would pay to see Chōshū', only their time and money was wasted for a month because they couldn't see one of the most influencial Japanese wrestlers because another guy took him out. While Brody wasted money for one match at least, Maeda had wasted a month's worth of money on top of two matches being ruined because of his ego and shoot methods.

Once again, I feel you're completely downplaying Bruiser Brody to make your boy, Maeda, look more unprofessional. Let's face it, Bruiser Brody was light years ahead of Maeda in pro-wrestling fame, and had a world-reknown reputation for his unprofessional antics on WELL more than one occasion in the ring. However, Bruiser Brody went on to become a sensation in many territories across the world (and brought his bad reputation with him to every territory he worked for), while Maeda was limited to New Japan.

Sometimes, over an extended period of time, we become comfortable in our place of employment and find ease in rebelling against our superiors. Maeda was with New Japan for his entire career, so his rebellion and unprofessionalism came easy. On the other hand, Bruiser Brody rebelled in 13 different territories. This obviously proved that he disrespected many more wrestlers than Maeda, more promoters, more bookers, and more fans. Brody is the epitomy of unprofessionalism.

Furthermore, Maeda only wrestled for 9 years (1978-1987), and only carried his bad reputation for three of them! His real-life feud with promoter Antonio Inoki only started in 1984 after his stint as a part of the Japanese UWF. However, Bruiser Brody wrestled for 15 years, and his bad reputation was carried with him for the majority of them. Due to his quick success in the states in the many territories that he was a part of (not to mention his alignment with Stan Hansen), his popularity (and ego) grew at an unprecedented rate. And along with his ego, his bad reputation as a liability grew just as quickly.

But even so, Brody was sought out as a wrestler, he would still have arenas booked out to see him, but yet on the other end, Maeda was suspended and fired as a result of his carelessness towards another human being. That is a pure result of unprofessionalism, Brody was sought after still even after his antics with Luger, but Maeda was fired, he had to start his own company to put himself back over again.

First of all, back in the 70's and 80's, if a wrestler was popular and healthy, they were going to get booked if they could put butts in the seats, entertain, and draw money for promoters, regardless of their reputation. That is the entire point of pro-wrestling... it is a form of entertainment in which someone in the shadows is sitting back and collecting their payday as a result of the show they produce with the best talent they could find. That talent was Bruiser Brody, not Akira Maeda.

As for the rest of your reply, I don't see where this makes one person's antics more unprofessional than the other. The backlash and consequences of a person's actions (in terms of punishment) does not make them more unprofessional. If Maeda wrestled stiff in his six-man tag match and DIDN'T injure Chōshū', your argument wouldn't hold water. The fact is that Chōshū' was indeed injured, but it was a result of stiff wrestling, a style that is extremely common to this day (and possibly more severe, in some instances.) However, Brody's actions were not common and still aren't to this present day.

It's much like Mr. Kennedy was accused of nearly injurying Orton in his one match return and got fired because of it, yet when there's guys who don't sell, they'll get a telling off or maybe a warning. The fact is on the rare occasions when a legitmate injury may come from any unprofessionalism or endangering another carelessly, it costs them their job.

So what you're trying to say is that just because Maeda was fired and Brody wasn't, THAT makes Maeda's actions more unprofessional??

First off, Kennedy is a terrible example here. He was fired for many more reasons than botching a move on the WWE's top heel. The man was injury prone, a violator of drug policies, a liar to the public about his drug habits, a man who lost his physique after failing drug policies (thereby becoming less appealing to the audience), amonst other issues that I will fail to mention here.

Let's face it... most pro-wrestlers get away with MANY wrong-doings over the course of their career. Even Hulk Hogan admitted that he wasn't the best employee for a wrestling company to employ. To quote Hogan, he said "If you're friends with everyone, then you're not making any money." There is a good chance that Maeda's disagreements and altercations with Inoki came into play when it came to his demise with New Japan. A lot of Maeda's problems with Inoki had to do with Maeda being stupid and stubborn. However, all of his mistakes during his time with the company don't fall under the category of being "unprofessional." Let's be real here... he isn't the first person in history to ever disagree with his boss about his job duties. And so he was fired for one of his rebellious actions... so what? Just because you get fired from a job doesn't mean you were being "unprofessional." People get fired from jobs for many other reasons besides that.

Now, I highly doubt that if the same thing happened to Triple H, Shawn Michaels, or John Cena, they'd fire them. But none of this matters. The fact of the matter is that Maeda was expendable, so he was much easier to fire than Brody.

Maeda's match with André wasn't one that ended like a normal, nor did it act like a normal show. People were questioning why the match was not worknig like a story being told. It wasn't worked, these two weren't playing off each other, and much like no-selling, it breaks character too because the rhythm of the match goes completely and whatever is planned doesn't go into place. André layed down when he was winning to stop the debate, where he was garanteed a win, he was professional enough to lay down for Maeda to pin him and he still didn't take it.

Regardless, the match actually occurred. Brody's match never even went past 3 minutes, and it was the main event of the card! After Luger walked off, the crowd had nothing to watch, after paying their hard earned money to see a main event cage match between Luger and Brody.

This is similar to two well-documented mistakes made by WCW on the road to their demise...

Bash at the Beach 2000 - The PPV had Hulk Hogan facing off against Jeff Jarrett for the WCW Championship. The controversy of Jarrett laying down for Hogan occurred and the crowd was bewildered, but they still got the see another main event at the end of the night, some controversy, and no one really complained much.

However...

Halloween Havoc 1998 - Diamond Dallas Page was set to face Goldberg in the main event but there was one problem... WCW ran out of time and the PPV feed was cut off for all the people that purchased it! As a result of viewers NOT being able to see the main event of the card, WCW was forced to refund millions of dollars to their viewers!

This proves that a controversial match will always be a bigger draw than a match that never even occurs!

Maeda's "controversial" actions in his six-man tag match couldn't even compare to Brody's match that never even occurred, therefore this proves Brody to be much more unprofessional.

Both methods of unprofessional break the magic, but shooting in a match is where the rules go beyond just annoying your opponent, audience and backstage, it becomes a brawl more than anything, it takes it from a wrestling match to a simple "street fight", magic is broken because they aren't telling a story of wrestling, where no selling does similiar, it still says "this is a wrestling match" to the audience.

I see your point, but Brody's match never fully occurred, so how could a non-existent match tell a story? And he didn't just "annoy" Luger as you so eloquently stated... he pushed Luger to the point where a man who was trying to be professional had to act unprofessionally by walking out on a match, only minutes after it began. So Brody not only acted unprofessional himself, but caused his opponent to do so in the process! I guess Brody actually found a way to make unprofessionalism contagious LOL!!

I disagree here, and as stated above, they both can be similiar taken, but no selling does break the magic, but equally shooting and wrestling stiff ruins match endings, affects momentum and also affects careers, if these didn't exist, there wouldn't be reminders of "Don't try this at home" because they don't know how to wrestle, which is affectly what wrestling stiff would be in some cases.

But a stiff wrestling match is still a wrestling match. It's still entertainment. An wrestling ring surrounded by a steel cage with no competitors can't be put in that category.

Another matter I wanted to bring is one person that links the two together. Antonio Inoki. Both our cases have had problems with this man, where Brody and Inoki refused to put each over in their matches, Maeda refused to work in a money making programme with Inoki, because Maeda refused to do so, he cost the company money because they couldn't give the feuds people wanted. Where unprofessionalism can affect the views of how the audience see wrestling, it also is about how the company is affected from not making the most out of the available roster they have.

Absolutely. Antonio Inoki is the funny link to the occurrences that we have both cited. But, Inoki was only a link to Maeda's unprofessionalism. Brody was unprofessional in many other wrestling promotions throughout the world, as I stated earlier.

In Summary
Whilst I agree with D-Man that Brody was unprofessional in his manner of no-selling moves in his matches, it does affect the match but it's a controversial subject of wrestling that still gets further debated as wrestlers of today like Triple H and Hulk Hogan are playing out this problem, whether they are professionals or not, no selling becomes a more accepted characteristic, regardless of whether it breaks the magic, the matches tend to continue and have a resulted finish.

On the opposite hand, shooting and wrestling stiff are parts of wrestling that are unplanned and dangerous when a wrestler begins to implement them in their system. It affects the careers of wrestlers who are hurt and injured by a man who shoots in wrestling, but it's break a code of trust and respect because the more a man becomes unsafe with this method of wrestling, the less likely people are to work with them.

Once again, you're blurring two forms of "no-selling." Hogan and Triple H's versions of no-selling are a part of the story that they tell in the ring. And the build-up for the story (as well as the direction of the characters) are determined by the booker, in this case Vince McMahon. You can't blame HHH or Hogan for acting strong during a matchup. In the end, they do exactly what they are told by their booker/promoter.

In the case of Bruiser Brody vs. Akira Maeda, while both are unprofessional in their manner, Brody's manner of no selling did affect the chemistry and magic of wrestling, but he was still a highly sought out wrestler by all companies who tried to get him to pen in a contract until his unfortunate murder, compared to Maeda who got suspended and fired because of his actions and couldn't even find work with other companies, eventually he had to start his own company to put himself back on the map. Just look at the comparison there, surely the more unprofessional man would be the one people least want to work with because he is more dangerous and unreliable compared to man who may not sell the magic of wrestling, but it's a factor we accept nowadays.

Which is why I strongly believe that while Bruiser Brody was quite an unprofessional wrestler with his no selling, he's not as unprofessional as Akira Maeda, a man who wrestles in a dangerous manner of shooting in his matches and causes more controversy wherever he goes to the point where he can't even be hired!

I've already covered Phoenix's entire Summary and thoroughly proved it to be inconsistent. To avoid repeating myself, I highly recommend that the judges read my previous statements that completely contradict and rebut Phoenix's Summary, clearly proving its inaccuracies.

And in closing, I'd like to mention something important...

Phoenix, in a previous post you mentioned the following:

Selling is a key part of wrestling, naturally, but where week in week out we will note of whether a wrestler is selling or not, it comes more down to their reputation to do this or not.

Since you're saying that unprofessionalism is a result of reputation (which, in wrestling, can be mistaken for self-indulgence as a result of inflated popularity), Brody's worldwide popularity in multiple territories throughout the world tramples over Maeda's popularity in only one territory. Therefore, in addition to my proof, your own words insinuate that Brody was far more unprofessional than Maeda. :)
 
May I start by saying that The D-Mans opening post is one of the best I have seen in this entire League. Luckily, however, Phoenix has proven his worth in these debates to battle against him.

Clarity Of Debate: D-Man and Phoenix. Gather around. There are people out in this world that cannot post worth their lives. They sit in a world of despair, imprisoned by their inability to format analytical responses. You two must go out in the world and teach them this skill. However, as you two have decided to wage a war so epic that it puts Mew vs Mewtwo to shame, I am forced to choose. The D-Man prevails with his straight edge persona of posting.

Punctuality: Great posting requires great amounts of time. D-Man however was lacking this time. Or something. Phoenix, the ring is yours.

Informative: When heaven released its rains, the valley was flooded in the monsoon. This Monsoon is the information that Dman used to grow his fields. These fields are what grew into his harvests. His harvests are his posts that he shared with the world.

Emotionality: TM. Wait, I am not in the debate?

Well since one of you want this point, I give it to D-Man. He seemed like he was enjoying himself in this debate, and with this vigor, he formatted a win.

Persuasion: D-Man, you have forced me to believe what you were saying. Phoenix, you got a little turned around in your debate, and I even lost site of your point for a second there. Dman has shown that he has what it takes to win this entire thing.

TM rates this Dman 4 points to Phoenix 1.
 
Clarity Of Argument: D-Man, thanks for outlining things here, but, please separate excuses from the actual body of your posts. Also, the courtesies are unnecessary, as I already read how you looked forward to debating with Phoenix in the Bar Room thread for the Debater's League.

Point: D-Man

Punctuality: Phoenix gets the point here.

Point: Phoenix

Informative: D-Man, you purported to refute all of Phoenix's points in your last rebuttal, but I found this to be far from the case. You made a brilliant point about Bruiser Brody's refusal to sell as being a detriment to spectator experience (and thus why he was more unprofessional than Maeda), but then Phoenix was able to agree with you on this point and incorporate it into his argument. Also, many of the criticisms you launched against Phoenix's arguments were equally applicable to yours. Furthermore, Brody was a big draw in AJPW, but to the best of my knowledge, this really wasn't the case anywhere else (unless you count selling out the relatively small Dallas Sportatorium as an ability to draw).

Point: Phoenix

Emotionality: Phoenix, you always keep a level head and always come up with relatively quick and intelligent responses. I don't think I've ever not given you the point here, and that won't change in this match-up.

Point: Phoenix

Persuasion: D-Man, as I said before, the point about Brody's refusal to sell as being detrimental to spectator experience was brilliant. Phoenix, I liked how you were able to show how this was not unique to Brody, but, I have to give credit to the originator.

Point: D-Man

tdigle's Score

D-Man: 2
Phoenix: 3
 
tdiglÉric Rohmer;1364165 said:
Informative: D-Man, you purported to refute all of Phoenix's points in your last rebuttal, but I found this to be far from the case. You made a brilliant point about Bruiser Brody's refusal to sell as being a detriment to spectator experience (and thus why he was more unprofessional than Maeda), but then Phoenix was able to agree with you on this point and incorporate it into his argument. Also, many of the criticisms you launched against Phoenix's arguments were equally applicable to yours. Furthermore, Brody was a big draw in AJPW, but to the best of my knowledge, this really wasn't the case anywhere else (unless you count selling out the relatively small Dallas Sportatorium as an ability to draw).

Tdigle, according to Wikipedia, Brody was a major star in the US, Puerto Rico, AND Japan. In the US, he wrestled in the National Wrestling Alliance, Central States Wrestling, World Wide Wrestling Federation, Southwest Championship Wrestling, Windy City Wrestling, Texas All Star Wrestling, World Wrestling Council, Deep South Wrestling, Championship Wrestling from Florida, American Wrestling Association, and World Class Championship Wrestling.

If you're known as a "major star" in these promotions, I would assume that would make you a huge draw. Either way, he was ten times more famous than Maeda, considering that Maeda had a shorter wrestling career in only one promotion, while Brody had a longer wrestling career in close to 13 promotions.

My point was that Brody's unprofessional reputation was known all over the world first hand by tons of promotions, while Maeda's was only know in Japan and rumored in the States.

So, I don't understand where you're coming from here.
 
Tdigle, according to Wikipedia, Brody was a major star in the US, Puerto Rico, AND Japan. In the US, he wrestled in the National Wrestling Alliance, Central States Wrestling, World Wide Wrestling Federation, Southwest Championship Wrestling, Windy City Wrestling, Texas All Star Wrestling, World Wrestling Council, Deep South Wrestling, Championship Wrestling from Florida, American Wrestling Association, and World Class Championship Wrestling.

If you're known as a "major star" in these promotions, I would assume that would make you a huge draw. Either way, he was ten times more famous than Maeda, considering that Maeda had a shorter wrestling career in only one promotion, while Brody had a longer wrestling career in close to 13 promotions.

My point was that Brody's unprofessional reputation was known all over the world first hand by tons of promotions, while Maeda's was only know in Japan and rumored in the States.

So, I don't understand where you're coming from here.

Brody was a journeyman who is famous for four reasons:

1) He anticipated hardcore wrestling.

2) Japanese people loved him.

3) He had an interesting look.

4) He was brutally stabbed to death in Puerto Rico.

Also, Maeda, besides his behavior in NJPW, is most known for the formation of UWF. Sure, it only lasted for two years and was dissolved due to creative differences, but he was UWF's ace and a major attraction in Japan for the last few years of the 1980s. I understand what direction you intended to take your argument, but, to the best of my knowledge, save for his time in Japan, Brody was mainly wrestling in small venues and at state fairs.
 
Clarity: While both looked very good, outlined well, D-Man's was just a bit clearer.

Point: The D-Man

Punctuality: D-Man had circumstances out of his control.

Point: Phoenix

Informative: Both arguments saw a vast amount of information brought. Both used to discredit each other.

Point: Split

Emotionality: D-Man always has a good time in his debates. He usually gets fired up a little bit, but this one just didn't seem like he did. Phoenix was his usual calm self.

Point: Split

Persuasion: This is a tough one. It is basically to choose which is worse, no-selling and suspending kayfabe, or legitimately injuring someone due to working stiff. I think I'll have to concur with both Tdigs and TM. Phoenix brought up some great points, put up a hell of a fight, but injuries happen, and working stiff happens quite a bit nowadays. When it comes to no-selling like Brody did, that could be detrimental if it is ever on a big telecast, PPV or on live television.

Point: The D-Man

CH David scores this The D-Man 3, Phoenix 2.
 
Clarity: The D-Man's posts were easier to read

Point: The D-Man

Punctuality: Pheonix

Point: Phoenix

Informative: I'll give D-man the credit here

Point: D-Man

Emotionality: Pheonix did it for me

Point: Pheonix

Persuasion: Real close one, feel bad for putting one way, well not really. Point for D-Man

Point: The D-Man

I score this round;
Pheonix: - 2
D-Man - 3
 

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