Week 5: General Disarray -versus- Mantaur Rodeo Clown

[Mr. TM]

Who was the better Tiger Mask: I or IV?

Mantaur Rodeo Clown is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific

 

[gd]

TM said I can pick now, and I choose Tiger Mask I. I'll try to post first, but if MRC wants to, he can post.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

knock yourself out GD. tiger Mask IV works fine for me
Ill just post my opening argument first.

Why Tiger Mask IV was better than Tiger Mask I.

I don’t want to lead anyone on here. I know very little about the Japanese world of wrestling. I know a few things here and there. I know names like Misawa, Kobashi and Jumbo Tsuruta. I’ve seen a couple matches that have been recommended to me, but I’m hardly what you’d call an expert on the subject, but if the debator’s league was easy for everyone, I suppose there wouldn’t be much point in doing it. But after doing a bit of research, I think the evidence inconclusively shows that Tiger Mask IV was the better Tiger Mask than Satoru Sayama.

Point such as technique, charisma or exposure would be impossible to argue with. The points would no doubt end in circles, as you could rant on and on about who did what better, inventor or innovator? Tiger Mask IV was not a cheap carbon copy of the original Tiger Mask, having been trained and endorsed by Sayama himself. Charisma is also a hard one to judge, as I speak only a few words of Japanese, and I would guess that both their work isn’t promo heavy at all. Exposure is again a tough call. Although the original Tiger Mask may have held the WWF Junior Heavyweight title, saying that some WWF fans pre-1985 would have known about him, it would be a small target audience from an international perspective. The same amount of international exposure would have been achieved by Tiger Mask IV when he sporadically appeared on TNA throughout 2007.

So this is what it comes down to. Not who was the better wrestler. Not who drew better. Hell, not even who had the cooler mask (It was Tiger Mask IV if you cared)
My argument is simply, who was the better Tiger Mask?

The history behind the mask and in turn the gimmick is that it is based on an immensely popular anime series by the same name, Tiger Mask. A wrestler that gives money to orphanages and saves the day. The main word I’m going to highlight is professional wrestler. The original Tiger Mask, being Satoru Sayama, did indeed start off in the bright wide world of professional wrestling, he eventually became jaded and was disgusted with the wrestling business after some personal disputes while competing in the UWF. Sayama quit professional wrestling before turning his interests to the MMA world. Herein lies my main debate, that Tiger Mask IV, who continues to wrestle under the guise of the Tiger, was a far better representation of the gimmick, a brave, peerless professional wrestler, than the original. Satoru Sayama turned his back o nthe wrestling world, even writing books in which he criticized pro wrestling and revealed the secrets of the business to the Japanese people. He, in doing so, betrayed the pro wrestling industry and acted more like a villain than his superhero gimmick should suggest. Tiger Mask IV has done nothing but wrestle his entire life, never deviating from his path. Never betraying the gimmick or the business. IT is this reason why he was a better Tiger Mask above all else.

This is why I personally believe Yoshihiro Yamazaki, or Tiger Mask IV, is a better Tiger Mask than Satoru Sayama ever was. Simply because when he donned the mask of the tiger, he treated the gimmick and the business with more respect than Sayama did.

 

[gd]

I am here to show that Tiger Mask I (Satoru Sayama) is clearly the better Tiger Mask than Tiger Mask IV in more ways than one.

1. He was the original. In pretty much everything, the original is the best. From movies, to books, the wrestling gimmicks, the original is usaually the most popular and most successful. This is true with Tiger Mask. When the original Tiger Mask debuted against the Dynamite Kid and picked up the victory, the crowd loved it. Of course other Tiger Masks have come and gone since then, but none were able to recapture the magic of the original.

2. Kayfabe Success. Despite being Tiger Mask for a mere two years, Satoru Sayama was able to accomplish something that no wrestler has ever accomplished before. He held the WWF Junior Heavyweight Championship and the NWA World Junior Heavyweight Championship simultaneously. After defeating the Dynamite Kid in his first match as Tiger mask, Sayama took off. In fact, he never actually lost either the WWF or NWA titles, both symbols that he was the top dog. He was forced to vacate titles due to injury and his retirement from the company, but he never actually lost a title match.

3. Other Accolades. Sayama received much praise for his actual in ring work as well. In both 1982 and 1983, he was named Best High Flyer and Best Technical Wrestler by the Wrestling Observer Newsletter. He also won match of the year and 5 star match accolades for his work with the Dynamite Kid. Not only was Sayama extremely successful as Tiger Mask I, but he was also one of the best wrestlers ever in Japan, combining technical and high flying wrestling into something spectacular.

Tiger Mask I is clearly the better Tiger Mask in this situation. Despite being under the gimmick for a much shorter time period, Sayama was able to be much more succesful and make much more of an impact on the wrestling world.

 

[gd]

Why Tiger Mask IV was better than Tiger Mask I.

I think you made a typo there, it is the other way around.

I don’t want to lead anyone on here. I know very little about the Japanese world of wrestling. I know a few things here and there.

Well, I know slightly more than very little, so it looks like I have the edge.

I know names like Misawa, Kobashi and Jumbo Tsuruta.

What about Muta, Rikidozan, and Inoki? Some other very good Japanese wrestlers.

I’ve seen a couple matches that have been recommended to me, but I’m hardly what you’d call an expert on the subject, but if the debator’s league was easy for everyone, I suppose there wouldn’t be much point in doing it.

Yep, it's pretty challenging this week, really tests your research skills.

But after doing a bit of research, I think the evidence inconclusively shows that Tiger Mask IV was the better Tiger Mask than Satoru Sayama.

Unfortunately, it looks like your research skills fail.

Point such as technique, charisma or exposure would be impossible to argue with.

Except for the fact that Tiger Mask I received awards for technical wrestling, while Tiger Mask IV didn't. So I will argue that Tiger Mask I was technically better.

The points would no doubt end in circles, as you could rant on and on about who did what better, inventor or innovator?

Tiger Mask I was obviously both the inventor and innovator of the Tiger Mask gimmick. He took a risk by taking something that was just a silly comic book chracter to some and was able to turn it into one of the best pro wrestling gimmicks of all time and become a respected pro wrestler.

Tiger Mask IV was not a cheap carbon copy of the original Tiger Mask, having been trained and endorsed by Sayama himself.

When I suggested that Tiger Mask IV was one of the better Tiger Mask's on another forum, I was more or less ridiculed and told that Tiger Mask IV was the worst of the Tiger Masks. Take that as you will, but those guys know there stuff. Just because he was trained by Sayama, doesn't mean he is as good as him. Patrick Ewing is coaching Dwight Howard on his post game, does that mean you can compare Howard's offensive skills with Ewing's? Of course not.

Charisma is also a hard one to judge, as I speak only a few words of Japanese, and I would guess that both their work isn’t promo heavy at all.

I'll give you a little Japanese lesson. Repeat after me, "Tomo Iri Gotto, Mr. Roboto." I don't speak a lick of Japanese either, so can't argue this.

Exposure is again a tough call. Although the original Tiger Mask may have held the WWF Junior Heavyweight title, saying that some WWF fans pre-1985 would have known about him, it would be a small target audience from an international perspective. The same amount of international exposure would have been achieved by Tiger Mask IV when he sporadically appeared on TNA throughout 2007.

I don't think either really received much exposure outside of Japan. However, if someone did have an edge, it would go to Tiger Mask I. He feuded with wrestlers who were very popular around the world like Bret Hart and Dynamite Kid.

So this is what it comes down to. Not who was the better wrestler.

This kinda does matter, and I have proof that Tiger Mask I was the better wrestler. Soooo..

Not who drew better.

Probably Tiger Mask I.

Hell, not even who had the cooler mask (It was Tiger Mask IV if you cared)

The masks are equally awesome.

My argument is simply, who was the better Tiger Mask?

Tiger Mask I.

The history behind the mask and in turn the gimmick is that it is based on an immensely popular anime series by the same name, Tiger Mask. A wrestler that gives money to orphanages and saves the day. The main word I’m going to highlight is professional wrestler.

You actually bolded it, but whatever.

The original Tiger Mask, being Satoru Sayama, did indeed start off in the bright wide world of professional wrestling, he eventually became jaded and was disgusted with the wrestling business after some personal disputes while competing in the UWF. Sayama quit professional wrestling before turning his interests to the MMA world. Herein lies my main debate, that Tiger Mask IV, who continues to wrestle under the guise of the Tiger, was a far better representation of the gimmick, a brave, peerless professional wrestler, than the original. Satoru Sayama turned his back o nthe wrestling world, even writing books in which he criticized pro wrestling and revealed the secrets of the business to the Japanese people. He, in doing so, betrayed the pro wrestling industry and acted more like a villain than his superhero gimmick should suggest. Tiger Mask IV has done nothing but wrestle his entire life, never deviating from his path. Never betraying the gimmick or the business. IT is this reason why he was a better Tiger Mask above all else.

That's it? Just because Sayama had some problems with the people who were running the company and found that the only right thing for him to do was quit, that makes him a bad pro wrestler? It was against his morals to work as Tiger Mask anymore, so he was forced to step away. That doesn't take away from the fact that he started the Tiger Mask phenomenon and accomplished more in 2 years than Yamazaki has accomplished in over a decade.

This is why I personally believe Yoshihiro Yamazaki, or Tiger Mask IV, is a better Tiger Mask than Satoru Sayama ever was. Simply because when he donned the mask of the tiger, he treated the gimmick and the business with more respect than Sayama did.

Did you every think that the business was the one that didn't respect Sayama? I have given evidence pased on facts and common sense that Tiger Mask I was the better Tiger Mask, and you have only condemed him based on speculating why he left. I think it's clear who wins here.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

1. He was the original. In pretty much everything, the original is the best. From movies, to books, the wrestling gimmicks, the original is usaually the most popular and most successful. This is true with Tiger Mask. When the original Tiger Mask debuted against the Dynamite Kid and picked up the victory, the crowd loved it. Of course other Tiger Masks have come and gone since then, but none were able to recapture the magic of the original.

Just because things are usually better when it's the original does not hold true in this argument. You say the crowd ate it up when he beat the Dynamite kid. You're basing this on what? Were you present? I'm sure he got cheered. He was a face. Hornswoggle gets cheered.

2. Kayfabe Success. Despite being Tiger Mask for a mere two years, Satoru Sayama was able to accomplish something that no wrestler has ever accomplished before. He held the WWF Junior Heavyweight Championship and the NWA World Junior Heavyweight Championship simultaneously.

The WWF Juniour Heavyweight championship, discontinued in 1985, was a nothing title. Thats probably why no one at all remembers it. Kayfabe wise, you could just as strongly point out that Tiger MAsk IV is a 5 time, 5 time, 5 time, 5 time, 5 time IWGP junior heavyweight title holder. Can you dig that?

After defeating the Dynamite Kid in his first match as Tiger mask, Sayama took off. In fact, he never actually lost either the WWF or NWA titles, both symbols that he was the top dog. He was forced to vacate titles due to injury and his retirement from the company, but he never actually lost a title match.

Vladmir Kozlov hasn't lost many matches either. I wouldnt call him the greatest of all time exactly. Certainly not better than Tiger Mask IV in any case. How many losses you've had kayfabe has nothing to do with how good you are.

3. Other Accolades. Sayama received much praise for his actual in ring work as well. In both 1982 and 1983, he was named Best High Flyer and Best Technical Wrestler by the Wrestling Observer Newsletter. He also won match of the year and 5 star match accolades for his work with the Dynamite Kid. Not only was Sayama extremely successful as Tiger Mask I, but he was also one of the best wrestlers ever in Japan, combining technical and high flying wrestling into something spectacular.

Yes, Tiger Mask was a very exciting wrestler. But looking at the facts, it can be said that all the moves that were so "revolutionary" back then, such as a "moonsault", are now common place. And Tiger Mask IV can do these moves, but gets lost in the shuffle, as although he too went to Mexico to train in the lucha libre style, so have many wrestlers these days. It is not his fault, nor does this make him any worse.

What about Muta, Rikidozan, and Inoki? Some other very good Japanese wrestlers.

Well I didn't want to quote every single japanese wrestler I knew. Tajiri. Taka Michinoku. Mr Saito. Would get very boring.

Unfortunately, it looks like your research skills fail.

Do tell why, General Disarray.

Except for the fact that Tiger Mask I received awards for technical wrestling, while Tiger Mask IV didn't. So I will argue that Tiger Mask I was technically better.

This is from the Wrestling Observer Newsletter, which I don't generally use to form my opinions on. Tiger Mask may well have been the better technical wrestler, but judging from time periods of their prime, it would be hard to judge exactly. When he received that award, it was the early 80's, and Hulkamania wasn't far from taking off, thus creating an era more focused on story telling than just technical skill. But, of course DiBiase was around to lend a hand to the technical side. However, Tiger Mask IV has faced in his career a far greater array of wrestlers. The standards were constantly raised, and a simple arm drag wasn't enough to satisfy. When competing for that title against Dean Malenko and Benoit, it may be easier to understand the competition difference.

But I may agree with you on this point at least. but did that make him the better Tiger Mask? I don't think so

Tiger Mask I was obviously both the inventor and innovator of the Tiger Mask gimmick.

Sayama didn't invent crap. The Tiger Mask Character was already alive and well in comic books well before the idea was conceived, and he didn't propose the idea, having been in Mexico wrestling under a different name. New Japan simply gave him to gimmick. In terms of innovation, he was the first one to do it, so of course he "innovated it".

He took a risk by taking something that was just a silly comic book chracter to some and was able to turn it into one of the best pro wrestling gimmicks of all time and become a respected pro wrestler

What risk was he taking? He wore a mask so people didn't know his identity, so not even his reputation would suffer if it failed. He didn't risk anything, because he was simply doing what his bosses told him, have a match in a mask. In terms of it being a "silly comic book character", it was easily one of the best cartoons Japan had ever seen, and was already extremely popular. He fell into the gimmick, and people cheered because they knew the mask, not Sayama.

When I suggested that Tiger Mask IV was one of the better Tiger Mask's on another forum, I was more or less ridiculed and told that Tiger Mask IV was the worst of the Tiger Masks.

You took my choice before I even saw the thread. I'm just sticking up for lets say, an underrated Tiger Mask.

Take that as you will, but those guys know there stuff. Just because he was trained by Sayama, doesn't mean he is as good as him. Patrick Ewing is coaching Dwight Howard on his post game, does that mean you can compare Howard's offensive skills with Ewing's? Of course not.

But Triple H is better than Killer Kowalski. And I'm Australian, so what do you speak of? Dwight Howard plays basketball right?

I'll give you a little Japanese lesson. Repeat after me, "Tomo Iri Gotto, Mr. Roboto." I don't speak a lick of Japanese either, so can't argue this.

It's spelt Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto. Styx song. Means thank you very much Mr Robot. You know, just one of my many skills.

I don't think either really received much exposure outside of Japan. However, if someone did have an edge, it would go to Tiger Mask I. He feuded with wrestlers who were very popular around the world like Bret Hart and Dynamite Kid.

It would be hard to argue. At least Tiger Mask IV got on Impact and Sacrifice 2007. It's not much, but its something.

This kinda does matter, and I have proof that Tiger Mask I was the better wrestler. Soooo..

IT would, if the question was "Who was the better wrestler". But as for who wore the mask better and did the gimmick better, you know.........

That's it? Just because Sayama had some problems with the people who were running the company and found that the only right thing for him to do was quit, that makes him a bad pro wrestler? It was against his morals to work as Tiger Mask anymore, so he was forced to step away. That doesn't take away from the fact that he started the Tiger Mask phenomenon and accomplished more in 2 years than Yamazaki has accomplished in over a decade.

Yes, thats it. He had problems with people in the company, so he threw a hissy fit and left. Then, instead of letting it go, he publicly condemned the business that gave him everything and to top it all off, wrote a boot telling everyone how the wrestling business worked. In terms of him "starting" the Tiger Mask phenomenon, I call bullcrap. The cartoon was already immensely popular in Japan, and he got over because of that, wearing the mask, Whenever he wasnt wearing the mask, he was nothing. It would be like someone coming to the WWE dressed as The Joker and doing the mannerisms. He is getting by on Heath Ledgers work and nothing else.

Tiger Mask IV had the harder job. He had to come on after the 3 predecessors and not only try and match up to them, but also to excel past them, which he has, with his career continuing today.

Did you every think that the business was the one that didn't respect Sayama? I have given evidence pased on facts and common sense that Tiger Mask I was the better Tiger Mask, and you have only condemed him based on speculating why he left. I think it's clear who wins here.

On common sense? What works on common sense? That since he worked with Bret Hart he must be a better wrestler? That because he wrestled in the early 80's, and did moves that luchadores had been doing for years, he innovated something? That by wearing a mask that was recognisable to fans off a cartoon, he got over by himself?

Yeah I think its clear who wins. Tiger Mask IV.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity Of Argument: Both of you provided very clear arguments. But, MRC, the Debator's League is not analogous to an essay exam; you didn't need to provide me with an introduction that was irrelevant to the topic at hand in order to score more points/marks.

Point: GD

Punctuality: GD gets the point here. I admire your coming in here late though, MRC. You had something to say after the deadline, and you said it. That will get you the emotionality point.

Point: GD

Informative: I am actually going to be splitting points in this debate for two criteria, and this is one of them. It seems as if this topic threw off both of you. GD, I would encourage you to not use as evidence the critical opinions of English-speaking puro marks like myself (who don't know a lick of Japanese). In the IWC, Tiger Mask IV is to NJPW what John Cena is to WWE: it seems like everyone can't stand him, although he's one of NJPW's most reliable and consistent performers. It is best just to stick to the wrestling. Also, MRC, Tiger Mask I did come back to wrestle later in his career, and, given his age, he was just as impressive as he had been in his earlier career (in other words, Ricky Steamboat has absolutely nothing on him).

Point: Split

Emotionality: See my comments on punctuality.

Point: MRC

Persuasion Of Argument: As I said before, this topic seems like it threw off both of you. But, it seems like you guys did some research, and I hope that you liked what you saw.

Point: Split

tdigle's Score

MRC: 2
GD: 3

 

[Mr. TM]

Clarity Of Argument: Both of you did good jobs, and I hate to sound like a broken record, but most of my 20 debaters have done great. However, GD really set it up nicely and did a great job in presenting his points.

Punctuality: GD was on time throughout.

Informative: A very hard debate, as most of the week's debates were. i have to hand it to you guys who got the Tdigle side of the debates, researching and watching Puro can be very tough. I think MRC was able to dig up more information as far as I can tell on these two.

Emotionality: Great emotion between you two. I really mean it, you two are great debaters and this was a privilege. I give this to GD here, and he used his sharp skills in emotion to win me over, however it did not translate into...

Persuasion: Persuasion. I had similar levels I am sure on knowledge on the subject. Having watched some Tiger Mask the original matches years ago, and some of 2 and 3 I knew a bit of the history. But MRC has persuaded me that IV deserves the respect as the better Tiger Mask.


TM rates this GD 3 to MRC 2.

 

[CH David]

Clarity: GD had a very nice setup, and the rest of his posts followed suit.

Point: General Disarray

Punctuality: GD was on time, and MRC posted his final response late.

Point: General Disarray

Informative: I think MRC had the more difficult task to prove that the fourth incarnation of a character could be just as good with the original. Even with the task, he brought some very good information that could combat Tiger Mask IV with Tiger Mask I.

Point: Mantaur Rodeo Clown

Emotionality: I liked that MRC came back, even though it was a late response. Showed he was motivated to get his point across.

Point: Mantaur Rodeo Clown

Persuasion: I'm not as knowledgable on the subject of Japanese wrestlers, and I am going to be a nit-picky prick on this one probably, but the topic was which was going to be the better of the two. Now MRC was able to make Tiger Mask IV comparable to Tiger Mask I, but that doesn't mean he was better. I realize comparing is difficult to do with incarnations of a character, but MRC just didn't get over that hump.

Point: General Disarray

CH David scores this General Disarray 3, Mantaur Rodeo Clown 2.

 

[Miko]

Clarity: GD's was easiest to read through

Point: General Disarray

Punctuality: MRC posting late and all that

Point: General Disarray

Informative: Yeah, MRC did a good job on research, couldnt tell you if it's reliable but theres a lot of it.

Point: Mantaur Rodeo Clown

Emotionality: Not really impressed by the late posting, I think GD gets the point here too.

Point: General Dissentry

Persuasion: I dont have a fucking clue on the subject matter, all I know is 1 Tiger Mask is enough for me. As a no-nothing I was more persuaded by the General.

Point: General Disarray

I score this one
General Disarray: - 4
Mantaur: - 1