Week 3: ztwhite -versus- Thriller

Discussion in 'Debator's League 2009' started by Mr. TM, Aug 16, 2009.

  1. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Over time, wrestlers have jumped ship from one promotion to another promotion. Each time the wrestler had a different run in each company. Some have been better, some have been worse. But for those wrestlers who faced a similar push, in which company did they thrive more in?

    Did Tommy Dreamer thrive more in WWE or ECW?



    Thriller is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

    Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.
     
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  2. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

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    Since the 24 hour window has lapsed for Thriller to post, I checked with TM and he said I could begin to debate and choose a side. Once a debate has started, I would normally ignore the 24 hour window and wait for the counter point from my opponent before posting again, but not in this instance.

    Tommy Dreamer (Laughlin) has had absoltely no benefit to the WWE whatsoever, so to say his career thrived more with the "E" would be absurd.

    Presently, the only thing Dreamer has going for him is nostalgia. He wasn't a credible ECW champ. Hell, he only held the belt in the original ECW for 30 minutes (or there about) !!! The WWE put the strap on him to simply capitalize on the emotions of the fan. We all want to see an underdog win, no matter who it is. But once he finished his "chase", he became nothing more than a jobber who had his fifteen minutes of fame.

    Sweet tap dancing Jesus -- THE MAN WAS EATING URINAL CAKES WHEN HE MADE HIS DEBUT WITH THE WWF / WWE !!!!!!!!! It can't possibly get any lower than that ???!!!

    While Dreamer was in ECW (the original), he was regularly embroiled in the company's most visible angles on screen and involved in the booking, some of the business decisions, and, like a number of other ECW wrestlers, was part of the day to day operations of the company off screen. There's a reason why Dreamer was given the monicker, "The Heart and Soul" of ECW.

    Dreamer was the first man to ever kick out of the immortal Superfly Jimmy Snuka's "Splash".

    He won the loyalty of the ECW fans inside that bingo hall by taking his caning like a man from the Sandman after losing the first ever Singapore Cane Match.

    Many wrestling fans believe Dreamer was the first wrestler to ever break character during a match, without a full fledged heel or face turn, when he accidentally "blinded" the Sandman.

    Dreamer's feud with Raven is arguably the biggest feud ever portrayed on ECW, lasting nearly two years, without Dreamer ever winning a match until the "Loser Leaves ECW" match where he picked up the win over Raven.

    Despite all the comings and goings of ECW wrestlers, Thomas Laughlin never turned his back on the company that gave him his "shot" and he continues to bleed ECW to this very day. There's absolutely no argument that can be made for Dreamer thriving more in WWE than in ECW.
     
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  3. Thriller Ant

    Thriller Ant Beep Bop Boop

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    I'm going to argue that Dreamer thrived more in WWF/E, for the simple reason that he had a concrete identity in the company. In ECW, you couldn't classify him as a midcarder, but he was never really in the title picture. He was in a few tag teams, but wasn't really a tag team wrestler. It often times seemed like he was just thrown into feuds that had an opening.

    Meanwhile, he became a very important member of the WWF/E. While he has not had the win/loss success that he had in ECW, he has helped to create many wrestlers in the company. In his tenure in WWECW, he has helped to put over Mike Knox, Test (rip), CM Punk, Jack Swagger, Mark Henry, Christian, and many others that may not even be on the roster anymore. In my opinion, the most impressive thing he has done is he went from being the man who is the first feud for many in ECW, to ECW Champion and Dreamer got the crowd behind him as he began his journey to become champion.

    Tommy Dreamer in WWF/E is a perfect example of thriving in a company without having the best win/loss record.
     
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  4. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

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    Sorry it took so long for a response. Some guy named Brett Favre signed with the Vikings and my bosses thought it was a big deal so I had to cover it :)

    How can you say Dreamer had a concrete identity in th WWE when no one really knew what the identity of ECW was until recently !! But, if you really want to make that argument, his concrete identity came from him being an ECW original, you know the "Heart and Soul" !!

    Plenty of guys aren't in the title picture for their respective companies and they're superstars. Some people don't need a title to make waves (get it, title waves - hah !!). When was the last time HBK held a heavyweight title ?? How about AJ Styles (and the Legends Title doesn't count)?? Dozens of stars have never held a heavyweight title - Mr. Perfect, Jake Roberts, Honky Tonk Man, Ted Dibiase, etc...

    You said it yourself - you couldn't really classify him as a midcarder - then what was he... a jobber ?? Because the only other level I know of is superstar and he certainly isn't a superstar by any stretch of the imagination in the WWF / WWE.

    Being thrown into feuds that had an opening was what made Tommy Dreamer, Tommy Dreamer. He turned a pile of crap into something worth watching. Not with his technical skills or his outstanding mic work, but with the way he managed to grab a fans attention. He looked like your everyman - not Superman. ECW fans connected with Dreamer because he was hard working and would grind it out until the end - hence his two year feud with Raven.

    Yes, Dreamer is a company guy, he's great in the locker room, he helps out the young kids in the ring, etc... Who gives a monkey's bannana !!!!!! This is about which company he flourished more in.

    You claim he helped put guys over and rattled off a few names. Must be a superstar for the WWE if he's putting over guys who are no longer with the company - Test (he was released before he died). The only thing Mike Knox has going for him is a soft spot for Hornswoggle to sleep with his beard. Since Dreamer has been a member of the WWE, he's had one real televised feud - the recent one with Christian and lets be honest, Christian makes everyone look good, but he couldn't even make Dreamer look good !!!!

    Of course the crowd was behind him - I stated the reason why a few sentences ago. But the crowd is also behind Eugene or anyone who wrestles a heel (most of the time). Fans love the underdog and Dreamer has always been an underdog with the WWE. At least in ECW was beloved by the fans for his matches, not for the we hope he does factor.

    Someone has to job to the stars. Dreamer shares a locker room with Funaki, Jamie Noble, Golddust and Charlie Haas.
     
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  5. Thriller Ant

    Thriller Ant Beep Bop Boop

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    You're a sportswriter? I'm going to school for journalism. Now, back on topic.

    I really don't understand what you mean here, if you clarify I'll debate you on this because I'm missing something.

    But those guys either had a good title reign or were always in the title picture. Tommy was just placed wherever he was needed.

    That's my point. He didn't have a role in ECW. He was the guy that Heyman would stick in the feud he just came up with and needed a guy for.

    But what is more difficult: Being a semi-major player in a company and getting fans to care about you, or being a guy who gets the new guys over and getting the fans to care about you? Tommy went from jobber to champion, and the fans ate it up. Tommy was over in ECW, but what he did to get the WWE fans behind him was much more impressive.

    He was an on-screen trainer and champion in the biggest wrestling company in the world. I'd consider that flourishing.
    He had a feud with Swagger, the ECW Originals vs. the New Breed, and the Colin Delaney/Mark Henry situation off the top of my head. All of those guys may not make it, but it says a lot about Tommy if he is trusted to be guy who these guys who could potentially be the future of the company get their on-screen tryout against.

    Take any two or three jobbers and see if they can get the same reaction Tommy did when he won, and I guarantee they can't. And if getting over is so easy, why doesn't everyone get a John Cena or Jeff Hardy reaction every week?

    A company must have a lot of trust in a guy's skills if they constantly have him compete against the newest and greenest members of its roster. If that is so easy, why don't one of those guys do it?
     
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  6. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

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    Sports writer - no. Executive Sports Producer for FOX Sports Wisconsin - yes. A word of advice - I also have one of my college degrees in Journalism, but it really hasn't served too much purpose. Look in to Communications or Telecommunications at your school (where you going BTW ??). Depending on what your career goals are, it could benefit you more in the end. Remember, newspapers are going under quickly, television will never go away and there are a lot more technical jobs available in tv then there are writing jobs at papers.

    I'm saying that Vince's ECW had no set format or direction when it reformed. One week it was hardcore, the next it wasn't. One week it was about monster like wrestlers, the next it was all normal guys. One wek it was about the New Superstar Initiative, the next week Finley, Christian, Mark Henry, etc... were on there. It's a revolving door in ECW with angles and show planning.

    The original ECW was clearly hardcore to the extreme. They knew what they wanted to do and where they were headed, even though they never really got there IMO. Dreamer was "THE GUY" in ECW despite not holding the Heavyweight strap aside from his 30 minutes of fame. A think it's a true indication of the role he played in ECW considering he's really the only guy left from ECW in ECW right now. Sure, guys like Raven and Tazz are on other shows, but they're not utilized or not even wrestling.

    Perfect, Dibiase, Honky and Jake never had "good title reigns". They were superstar talents who were destined to the midcard for their entire careers. Back in the day, the midcard wasn't exactly what it is today though. The IC title and the tag titles actually meant something, unlike today's product.

    Dreamer hasn't even acheived that measley level in the WWE. As I said before and I'll say again - HE WAS EATING URINAL CAKES WHEN HE DEBUTED IN THE WWF / WWE. Vince turned him into a complete joke for the first half dozen years he was with the company. Only recently did he receive a "push" and it lasted all of two months. Two months from now we'll probably never see Dreamer on ECW anymore. I hardly think a four to six month stint on the program constitutes a thriving ???!!!

    And it shows just how great Dreamer was in ECW. You're right, he had no defined role, yet he was popular enough to always have a role, regardless of what crap angle he was charged with.

    Once again, the most memorable feud from ECW was Raven / Dreamer, but there were no titles involved. Belts are simply props and mean nothing anymore. Back then, they were well on their way to being props and fans realized that. That's why guys like HBK, Taker or Dreamer do not need a belt to be beloved by fans. The bingo hall ECW fans worshiped their guys because they respected their performances, not what title they were given. WWE fans congregate toward the front runner most often, and Dreamer's recent run in ECW proves that.

    He did nothing to get WWE fans behind him. His woe-is-me story got fans behind him !!! It's not like he came to the ring and wowed the fans on the mic or on the mat. It all goes back to fans love the underdog and Dreamer was portrayed as the underdog. History shows us how easy that storyline is to accomplish. Dozens of guys have portrayed as the distute underdog and fans cheer them forward - it's what we do !!!

    I'd consider that preparing guys to take a spot you're not getting. It's not like Dreamer was / is washed up and can't wrestle anymore. Vince keeps him around for the rare case he wants a cheap pop by former and current ECW fans. He knows he needs at least one original to legitimize his use of ECW. That what makes Vince so damn smart - his forward thinking.

    No one remembers Dreamer in the Swagger feud - they simply know that Swagger is now on Raw. The Originals / New Breed feud lasted what, two months ?? It was an old, stale storyline that creative tried to rehash and it failed miserably. TNA is trying the same crap now and it's not working either.

    Colin Delaney was a train wreck in the making. Once again it was the underdog versus the world and once the underdog won and turned heel, Delaney was working at Starbucks and Dreamer was back to curtain jerking.

    Several jobbers have gotten the same reaction Dreamer has. The WWF used to have dozens of jobbers and they let them win every now and again for the cheap fan pop.

    Cena and Hardy should never be mentioned in the same argument as Dreamer !!! Those guys show night in and night out what a great performer can truly do. It's about capturing the crowd and holding them for years on end. Dreamer never has and never will capture WWE fans for years on end.

    Those guys do it all the time. Haas and his relatively recent gimmick copying bit. Noble trying to get Layla to be his girl in the past year. Golddust has been featured on ECW recently. All those guys are used for certain angles and if they were booked in the underdog angle, it would work equally as well if not better. I know for a fact that Haas and Golddust are better in the ring and on the mic than Tommy Dreamer.
     
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  7. Thriller Ant

    Thriller Ant Beep Bop Boop

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    Wow, that's fucking awesome! I go to Northern Illinois University. I'll probably end up online somewhere, but whatever, I'll figure it out after I graduate. :shrug:

    Ok, I got you now. ECW has been the training/try shit you wouldn't dare try on one of the main shows show since day 1. I agree he was extremely important to the original ECW, but it is really hard to call someone THE GUY if they don't go near the title picture.

    I said had a good title reign or be in the title picture. All of the guys you mentioned except for Jake held some kind of midcard belt, and like you said, those belts meant a lot more back then.

    Sure, he didn't get a real push until recently, but he managed to stay on TV for most of the past 8 years since he joined the WWE. How many other guys can say that?

    And he has always had a role in WWE, the bigger, more popular company that can more or less have any wrestler they want. There are at least hundreds of guys who have failed in the same spot Tommy is in now.

    If the titles mean nothing, then why do we focus so much on how many title reigns guys have or which guys should have been given the belt? The fans can respect the performance, but the ultimate respect from management for a performer is by giving them the belt. As for your last point, if they gravitate towards the front runner, why did CM Punk's first title reign get little to no reaction?

    He said the right things on the mic and is very solid in the ring. Tommy was given a chance to prove the fans care about him, even though he was a jobber only a couple months ago, and he pulled it off by playing his angle perfectly. Once again, you can't generalize, because not everyone can pull off every angle. Tommy is one of those guys who can pull off several, and make them all believable.

    If he can't wrestle, he wouldn't be there to help the new guys look good. I am a firm believer that a guy needs to be at least above-average at selling to be a main eventer. This allows the opponent to look good, and the performer to be able to feud with anyone. Tommy's ability to sell shows why he has been able to stay around and thrive in WWE so long.

    If it wasn't for Tommy helping Swagger look good in those matches, there wouldn't be a Jack Swagger to be on Raw. Swagger is very good, but, as the old cliché goes, it takes two to tango. Look at how bad Delaney was, and Tommy helped to get him over and let him last much longer than he would have otherwise.

    Tommy does show what a great performer can do. He takes on the greenest guys in the company, and makes them look good. As for capturing the crowd, try and find the reaction after he won the ECW title. There have only been three reactions like that I have heard in my life, and the other two belong to Jeff Hardy. He has been on a fairy tale ride, the likes of which haven't been seen in a long time, if ever.

    But they rarely have extended stays on TV. The fact is that Tommy may not be the most talented guy on the roster, but he is the one on TV and teh one who can make the fans care about him. Tommy Dreamer has been an underdog his entire time in the WWE, and has been successful the entire time. Thriving entails more than just wins and losses.
     
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  8. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

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    See, right there you lost the debate !!!!! You agree he was extremely important to ECW and the topic of the debate is which company Dreamer has thrived in more.

    If you can argue that he's been more important to WWE then he was to the original ECW, and back it up with solid points, I'll throw in the towel and concede.

    Which helps to illustrate my argument that Dreamer thrived more in ECW !! If he was a thriving part of the WWE, wouldn't he have held some form of a title in all his years with the company - especially the way they play hot potato with all the gold ???!!! Eight years in the company and no form or fashion of any title until he recently won..... and then subsequently lost..... the ECW title. Hmmmmmmm ???!!!

    Again, if he wasn't the only surviving member of the original ECW (Mysterio doesn't count because his identity was forged in WCW and the WWE), he would have been out the door a long time ago. He is a vital piece of backstage affairs (or so we're told), but so are a lot of guys. The thriving of his career is based on what he does ON tv, not OFF screen.

    See the above responding paragraph for my rebuttal - it's the same answer.

    That couldn't be farther from the truth. Title reigns are counted because every wrestling fan knows that "Naitch" has 16, so when a number is tossed around, it is used to compare their reigns to Flair's.

    As for respect with the belt - Vince could give two shits about respect, He's about selling tickets, merchandise and PPV's. If a guy has the fan support and is incredibly over, he'll get the belt if he proves he can hold the crowd. Jeff Hardy is prime example number one. All those years of doing the same spot monkey routine finally got him somewhere because he won over the fans. Matt Hardy is the complete opposite. He kicks the shit out of everyone's favorite (Jeff) and the next week people could care less about him. That's why he's either off tv or rumors are flying about a Hardy reunion. He needs Jeff to flourish, not a belt.

    But when he pulled off ALL those angles in ECW, there wasn't a place for him and he was just filling holes for Heyman ??? That's what you claimed earlier. But since those holes have a McMahon ass attached to them, they're credible enough to show Dreamer's career is thriving ??? I call asshole comment.

    Any wrestler who's ever stepped in a WWF / WWE / WCW / ECW or TNA ring has been above average. The people running those companies aren't / weren't stupid enough to put morons in the ring and risk major lawsuits down the line.

    As for Dreamer's ability to make anyone look good, I agree, he can. But he did it longer and better in ECW and he did it with main event players in ECW, while in the WWE, he does it with guys looking for a push - big difference !!!

    Jack Swagger didn't need Dreamer to make him look good. Let me educate you young man - Jack Swagger has "IT". Whatever IT is, he has IT. When a guy comes along who has IT, a longtime, devoted wrestling fan can see it, hear it and feel it. Tommy Dreamer didn't make Jack Swagger, Jack Swagger is making Jack Swagger !!!!

    Fairy tales are for kids and so are Trix BTW. One reaction doesn't make a career thrive - numerous reactions do. That's why the only two reactions you've heard that have been bigger were for Jeff Hardy.

    To digress a bit - you should go back and watch some old school classic rivalries to hear real fan reactions.

    He's been on tv recently dude. In his eight years in the WWF / WWE, Dreamer was hardly ever featured. Once ECW returned, it opened a spot and an angle for Dreamer. Before that time, Dreamer was hardly ever on tv. He has stuck around, but not because he thrives in the WWE, but because he keeps the memory of the original ECW thriving.
     
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  9. Thriller Ant

    Thriller Ant Beep Bop Boop

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    But the question doesn't say anything about being important to the company, it says thriving in the company. While I will say again that he was important to the original ECW, he thrived more in his role in WWE. He may not have had the most glamorus role, but he has always done great in his role.

    If he thrived in ECW, wouldn't he have held the title for more than 30 minutes? Tommy has actually spent less time as an in-ring competitor in WWE, and has held the title more. So, by your own logic, he has thrived more in WWE.

    With the recent talent cuts, I'm sure Vince had a reason more than "he is the only ECW Original left" to keep him. They got rid of guys who could lead the company in the future, but kept him, so they saw something. He does thrive on-screen. He has solid matches every week and is vital to the building of future superstars. That is his job, and he excels at it.


    I said this last debate too: I hate the term spot monkey. If you watch a non-gimmick Jeff Hardy match, you'll see it is more than just a series of spots. he does have an in-ring psychology and has shown before that he can chain wrestle. You still didn't tell me why if belts are so insignificant, then why we keep track of title reigns and they are viewed as so important.

    Not sure what you mean here. Besides that stupid gimmick they started him off with, Vince has always had Tommy just be himself and go out and wrestle. Heyman threw Dreamer all over the card, so he never really had a role to thrive in.

    Okay, what is harder: Making The Sandman or Raven look good in hardcore matches, or making rookies who have never been on TV look good in solid wrestling matches? He had it a lot easier in ECW. As for above-average, watch Orton sell in a match, then watch Triple H sell in a match, and you'll see what I mean.

    I said Tommy helped Swagger. A guy can have all of the talent in the world, but if he goes against someone who is shit, he won't look good. Kurt Angle could go against Batista, and you wouldn't be able to tell he is an Olympic Gold Medalist because Batista would make him look like shit.

    Even when he was a jobber, he got better reactions than some upper midcarders do (I'm looking at you MVP). I would be crazy to say he is near Jeff Hardy levels, but he always gets decent pops.

    He's been as consistently on ECW as anyone else. The original ECW has nothing to do with it. If Vince really cared about the original ECW, we would still have some version of it. Vince knows that he has a solid performer who can help new guys look good, and that is the role that Dreamer has thrived in.
     
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  10. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

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    But being important to a company is what allows an individual to thrive at said company. It doesn't matter whether it's a real estate company or a wrestling organization. Anyone who's "wanted" by their company because of their importance to that company will automatically thrive - it's common sense truly. Dreamer was more important to ECW when you consider his in ring performances and as you claim, his behind the scenes performances. During his tenure with the original ECW, he was vitally important in both roles. In the WWE, he's only been important on screen for the past couple of months and is already being phased off tv.

    No, because as I stated before the titles don't mean nearly as much as they used to in the 80's. Having a strap around your waist is no big deal and we saw how little it did for Dreamer in the WWE. It's not as if he became a major marketing tool, selling t-shirts, PPV's and tickets. He's never headlined a PPV and he's certainly never made an individual buy a PPV because he was in for the WWE.

    I may step in it with this comment, but Dreamer sold quite a few PPV's for the original ECW back in the day (because they only had a few).

    Back to school young man - Vince kept him for the sole purpose of him being the only original ECW member remaining. That means something to wrestling fans who were devout followers of the original. That's why when Dreamer pounds his chest and scream "E-C-W", fans chant right along with him. Much the same as when RVD would point to himself and scream "R-V-D". ECW had a cult-like following and fans don't forget that.

    Yes I did - it's because everyone knows about title reigns because of Ric Flair. He's known for his 16 heavyweight reigns and when Triple H claims to be a 13 time champ, it's a sign of respect ot Flair. It says, "yeah, I have 13, but we all know Flair has 16 and we have a ton of respect for him because of it".

    Additionally, all sports are about records and accomplishments. As much as wrestling wants to claim they're sports entertainment, they also want to claim they're a sport. One way of them doing it is by keeping track of title reigns because that's consider their stat. Try to find the career record of Hogan - you can't !! See if you can find out many matches Mankind / Foley / Cactus Jack was counted out of - you can't. Titles are the only road that wrestling has to form a paper trail legacy.

    That depends on the rookie. Most guys aren't really rookies when they debut in the WWE - they're rookies on WWE programming. These guys have years of training in places like FCW, OVW, ROH, etc... It's been a long time since a true rookie stepped in a WWE ring.

    Dreamer gives the guy a little credibility by laying down for the pin, but no one is really surprised if Dreamer gets beat - he's supposed to lose - that's what he's done for the better pat of eight years in the WWE.

    You're giving him way too much credit for helping develop young talent when guys like Dean Milenko are giving them tons of of screen training and I'd much rather have Milenko training me than Tommy Dreamer.

    Completely disagree. Guys who are great in the ring can make anyone look great. Watch the HHH / Great Khali match from a year or so ago on PPV when Khali had a title shot. HHH made Khali worth watching. One guy can easily carry a match if that guy is the right guy. Tommy Dreamer could in no way carry a match now or ever.

    Lots of guys get decent pops - that doesn't mean anything.

    Vince does still have some version of it - it's on SyFy on Tuesday nights at 9 Eastern / 8 Central and it's called... wait for it... wait for it... wait for it... ECW !!! Surprise !!!
     
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  11. Thriller Ant

    Thriller Ant Beep Bop Boop

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    While I agree that someone being important to a company helps them to thrive, it is not the only way to define whether or not someone is thriving. Someone can be important to a company, but if they are given a role that is bad for them, they won't thrive. Tommy has been given a role in the WWE, and he thrives in the role.

    And only a few people bought them. It may not be a big number of people, but I highly doubt that there was not a single person who was at least semi-convinced to purchase a PPV he has been on because of him.

    I think I said something to this effect in my last post about a different point, but if Vince wanted to keep the original ECW, he would have. Dreamer is being kept around for more than just a cheap pop now and then.

    I agree with the keeping records use of titles, but that still proves that they must be more than props. Would you consider a team's win-loss record to be a prop?

    Like you said in an earlier post, everyone in the WWE is at least above average, so those guys may be good in those other companies but not good enough for the WWE. Tommy is there as these guys' first test on real WWE television. Tommy has to be nearly perfect in the ring, because the careers of these guys depends on it. I never claimed that Dreamer trained these guys, I'm just saying that he has to be good in the ring as to not screw over the rookies.

    Khali is never worth watching. I really believe that Tommy could, and probably has carried a match. I'm not saying they are 5 star classics, but if you are going against Tommy Dreamer, you know that you don't have to worry about your opponent being sloppy or useless.

    First you say the belts are little more than props, and now you claim that pops don't mean anything? Are we both talking about pro wresting?

    You know what I meant. If Vince wanted a legitimately relaunched ECW that was like the original, he would have it.
     
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  12. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

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    Dreamer was given a role in ECW as well and it was much bigger and much more front and center than the role he currently fills in the WWE.

    ECW Pay-per-View Buyrates

    The buyrate reflects the number of homes which purchased a pay-per-view broadcast; 1.0 roughly equates to 400,000 seperate homes ordering the event.

    Event Buyrate
    Barely Legal 1997 (April 13, 1997) 0.26
    Hardcore Heaven 1997 (August 17, 1997) 0.21
    November to Remember 1997 (November 30, 1997) 0.20
    Living Dangerously 1998 (March 1, 1998) 0.21
    WrestlePalooza 1998 (May 3, 1998) 0.23
    Heat Wave 1998 (August 2, 1998) 0.25
    November to Remember 1998 (November 1, 1998) 0.21
    Guilty as Charged 1999 (January 10, 1999) 0.24
    Living Dangerously 1999 (March 21, 1999) 0.25
    Hardcore Heaven 1999 (May 16, 1999) 0.23
    Heat Wave 1999 (August 2, 1999) 0.26
    Anarchy Rulz 1999 (September 19, 1999) 0.23
    November to Remember 1999 (November 7, 1999) 0.20
    Guilty as Charged 2000 (January 9, 2000) 0.21
    Living Dangerously (March 12, 2000) 0.24
    Massacre on 34th Street (December 3, 2000) 0.98

    Compared to the WWE, this doesn't look like a lot of people, but in terms of the audience being able to see ECW, it's pretty impressive.

    Massacre on 34th Street actually had nearly 400,000 PPV buys even though it was their last one. Goes to show that people were indeed watching and cared enough about guys like Tommy Dreamer to see their send off.

    I'll agree to disagree on this point and we'll let the judges decide :)

    Absolutely !!!! There are lots of guys in the wrestling business who have crappy win / loss records, but if wrestling were real, those records would be quite different.

    I would expect a veteran of 15+ years to be able to "not screw over the rookies".

    Completely agree. You don't have to worry about Dreamer being sloppy or crap, which is why Heyman knew he could throw him in any situation and paying fans would always get their money's worth... without him having to chase the title.

    The only time Dreamer has received a legit pop in the WWE was when he was chasing and winning the strap, yet one of his opponents received a much bigger ovation each and every time - Christian. Dreamer received those pops because 1) he was a babyface and most babyfaces get cheered and 2) he was the underdog as was pointed out several times each match by Striker and Mathews.

    I was talking about cheap pops. Consult Mick Foley for the definition of a cheap pop. He demonstrates each and every week, both on TNA and when he was in WWE, how to get a cheap pop. Any wrestler, no matter who they are could get a cheap pop at any given time.

    It takes a multitude of things for a wrestler to get that type of reception each and every week.

    Had to be a smartass for a moment - sorry dude !!
     
    #12
  13. Thriller Ant

    Thriller Ant Beep Bop Boop

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    No, he didn't have a role, that's what I've been saying. He was thrown willy-nilly into whatever Heyman needed him to do because Tommy is a company guy and will do just about anything. He has had a defined role in WWE. It may not have been the most glorious role, but it was a defined role and he thrived in it.

    Tommy wasn't the only reason people bought those PPV's, either. I'm sure if Dreamer was given a real main event feud that headlined a PPV, he could easily draw much more than that now.

    Fair enough. You've been trying to deny my points much more than you've been giving your own. ;)

    So you agree that win-loss records are a prop, too? We must have a different definition of what a prop is. You can't make the "if wrestling was real" argument, because everything that we think we know about wrestling would be different. It is a completely irrelevant argument.

    Triple H, anyone? No, but what I'm saying is that he is solid in the ring and won't botch, therefore not screwing over the rookies.

    Which is why he didn't thrive as much in ECW. One month he would be trying to be a contender for the belt, the next he was having a midcard feud with Raven. I'm not saying he was bad at it, but it is hard to thrive when you are getting moved around every month.

    He still got pops when he was a jobber, which is more than we can say about a lot of guys that have been higher on the card. Christian gets bigger pops because he is given mic time every week and has an exciting moveset that people pop for. Tommy gets pops because he is a solid worker that always puts on a good show.

    And Tommy must have those things, because he gets a pretty good reception every week.
     
    #13
  14. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

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    And that role would be what ?? A backstage mentor - he was that in ECW too.

    A guy who occassionally gets a spot on a show, a show which BTW is the third highest priority the WWE has and may even be fourth (1. Raw 2. Smackdown 3 & / or 4. Superstars / ECW) - he was always front and center on the original ECW.

    A guy who's respected by his peers - he was way more respected in the original ECW (I believe anyway - no way to really know).

    A guy who helps develop young talent - he did that in ECW as well as competed in many, many major angles that helped make the company last as long as it did.

    Of course he could - the WWE has millions of fans all around the world. ECW was a niche wrestling company with a devoted following - not a mainstream wrestling following.

    It's called counter-rebuttals. That's what normally happens in a debate. You on the other hand have blatantly avoided all my points regarding Dreamer's thriving in ECW more than WWE and simply tried to force your opinions on me or the judges. Guess they don't teach debate in journalism classes at Northern Illinois :)

    As are win / loss records and titles - completely irrelevant.

    That's one of the biggest falacies in the business. I could use your theory regarding titles and say that is Triple H is a 13 time champ, that means he's a 14 time champ who's lost. Triple H is simply a guy who wants to make sure the person he puts over isn't an individual like The Rock, Brock Lesnar or Bobby Lashley. They need to have a respect for the business, a desire for competition and a true love of wrestling. Dreamer most definitely has all of those things, but I believe we'll both agree that he's not on the same level as HHH, but that's a different argument for a different thread.

    But he was at least constantly moved on tv, not off. He always had a role where fans were able to appreciate his work. In the WWE, he'll be on tv for a few months, then disappear for a few more. Look back at his career in the WWE and tell me I'm wrong - you can't.

    Christian is given more air time - whether it's on the mic or in the ring - because he's a better overall talent. Dreamer is given limited roles and limited mic time because his lack of true wrestling skill will eventually surface. That's why he was given his token title as a way of saying, "Thanks for being the guy who never complains, but you're only going to hold for a few months because you truly aren't that good."

    No he doesn't - simply stated.
     
    #14
    Thriller Ant likes this.
  15. Thriller Ant

    Thriller Ant Beep Bop Boop

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    He does all of those things, and the last one much better now than he did in the original ECW. When I say "role", I mean a specific job in the company. Triple H, Orton, and Cena are the main eventers that are always in or near the title picture. Morrison is the rising midcarder. Cryme Tyme are tag team specialists. You get the idea. Tommy was the on-screen trainer for the rookies on ECW, and is now in the ECW main event. Guys can move between roles, like Tommy has, but to move each time you start a new feud, like he did in the original ECW, is ridiculous.

    That is another reason why he thrives more in WWE. He is able to reach so many more people now than he could in ECW. The main goal of pro wrestling is to entertain, and if he is reaching more people, he is entertaining more people.

    I haven't avoided your points, you just haven't given any because you are too busy trying to disprove me rather than prove yourself.

    I can't believe you are trying to say titles are irrelevant. Win-loss record, I can agree with, but titles? That is a ludicrous statement.

    I really think he doesn't to not look weak, but I'll go with you here for a minute. That very well may be the reason he doesn't put guys over, but if you are that picky, you end up with a situation like where Raw is, where no new stars are being created. Tommy Dreamer is helping to make sure the WWE will still exist when this batch of main eventers retires by helping create the future.

    The only time he was off TV is when the competition part of his original contract ended. He is on ECW as much as anyone else on that show is.

    I really think it says more about a guy if they don't use the mic to get over. Tommy is over based on 2 things: his reputation and how solid he is in the ring. If given the mic time Christian gets, however, I'm sure Tommy could get similar reactions to Captain Charisma.

    Either we have a different opinion of good reactions, or the sound on your TV is messed up/
     
    #15
  16. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Good debate you two. i will ask that you two finish at the deadline next time, even though the debate was going well.

    Clarity of debate- 1 point
    Thriller gets this one here!!!!. ztwhite, what is with the use of "!!!!"? It is quite distracting, and if this wasn't the case, and Thriller wasn't bullet proof, you could have went for the point. Otherwise great clarity.

    Punctuality- 1 point
    Thriller did work hard here, but he was late getting his debate in to begin with, so I had to allow ztwhite to start. At this pace though, hopefully Thriller will be getting this point nect round.

    Informative- 1 point
    ztwhite did bring up a lot more information, in relative terms, as I would argue that there IS a lot more ECW information on Dreamer. I had hoped Thriller could bring in more that was out there.

    Emotionality- 1 point
    Thriller was the more emotional, in a smart manner in this debate. Calm, with a bit of an overpowerment. I like that.

    Persuasion- 1 point
    But at the end of the day, the debate that really put me over here, despite Dreamer's actual relatively titleless time in ECW as a top guy, ztwhite helped prove that that night of fame for Dreamer was better than anything that has happened for him in WWECW.

    TM rates this 3 points ztwhite to 2 points Thriller.
     
    #16
  17. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity Of Debate - ztwhite, your arguments are always outlined nicely, and you always do your research. I can't fault you for anything in regards to being clear and informative.

    Point: ztwhite

    Punctuality - See TM's post.

    Point: ztwhite

    Informative - As always, ztwhite, you brought in a good amount of information, and you milked for all it was worth without making your arguments too contrived.

    Point: ztwhite

    Emotionality - I liked your persistence and passion in this debate, Thriller. Good job.

    Point: Thriller

    Persuasion - Thriller, you had the much harder task, and you did the best that anybody could. When I looked at this debate's question, I scoffed and asked, "How could anyone think that Dreamer was more successful in WWE?" Well, you pulled off something extraordinary, Thriller: you made me believe that Tommy Dreamer's time in WWE has actually been valuable to his career. ztwhite, you did a good job here too, but, Thriller did something that I thought was virtually impossible to do.

    Point: Thriller

    tdigle's Score

    ztwhite - 3
    Thriller - 2
     
    #17
  18. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: Both were very clear and concise, but I think Thriller pulled this one out, no unnecessary emphasis on some points.

    Point: Thriller

    Punctuality: Thriller had trouble getting into the starting gate.

    Point: ztwhite

    Informative: ztwhite had the right amount without going overboard.

    Point: ztwhite

    Emotionality: Thriller had the right formula working. Very passionate debate for him.

    Point: Thriller

    Persuasion: Like Tdigs said, Thriller had the more challenging task, and he really brought it and succeeded in getting me to believing his time in WWE was better for his career.

    Point: Thriller

    CH David scores it Thriller 3, ztwhite 2.
     
    #18
  19. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: I had an easier time reading through ztwhites stuff, not to take away from Thriller's work though.

    Point: ztwhite

    Punctuality: For turning up late, Thriller loses the point this time

    Point: ztwhite

    Informative: A good amount of info to see there, I think Thriller gets the point here though

    Point: Thriller

    Emotionality: I'll give this one to ztwhite, he was a little more barbed in his responses, although being barbed is only any good if you've got a good point.

    Point: ztwhite

    Persuasion: Tough choice here, I think in the end ztwhite gets the point for me though.

    Point: ztwhite

    I am scoring this one at
    Thriller - 1
    ztwhite - 4
     
    #19

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