Week 3: SkeptiKal -versus- Milkyway

Discussion in 'Debator's League 2009' started by Mr. TM, Aug 16, 2009.

  1. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Over time, wrestlers have jumped ship from one promotion to another promotion. Each time the wrestler had a different run in each company. Some have been better, some have been worse. But for those wrestlers who faced a similar push, in which company did they thrive more in?

    Did The Legion of Doom/Road Warriors thrive more in AWA/NWA/WCW or WWE?



    Milkyway is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

    Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.
     
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  2. Milkyway!

    Milkyway! Hodor!

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    I'll go ahead and choose NWA/AWA/WCW...

    You will be making the first arguement.
     
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    SK likes this.
  3. SK

    SK I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaack

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    I fully believe that the Legion of Doom/ Road Warriors thrived more in the WWE/WWF. The WWE/ WWF is where any aspiring professional wrestler wants to end up. They are an international company with some of the best wrestlers in the world. Granted the LOD weren’t around in the WWE/ WWF for very long, compared to their runs in other promotions. However, in this short time they thrived, winning the tag titles on 2 occasions, even being handed a magnanimous 8 month reign.

    Title runs weren’t handed out as frequently in the early 90’s, but LOD were given an 8 month tag title reign after being there for only a year and only stayed a year later. This shows that LOD thrived in the WWE/ WWF, because they were given the prestigious tag titles in the largest wrestling promotion in the world and held the belts for a huge 8 months. LOD were made to look completely dominant in the tag division and were even given the awful ventriloquist gimmick to try and make them seem more human and beatable.

    Legion of Doom/ Road Warriors obviously had success in all other promotions they have been in, I can’t argue that, but when you are given such a huge title run in the worlds largest wrestling promotion, their other achievements pale in comparison. Even Road Warrior Animal (Joe Laurinaitis) in an interview (see below) valued the WWE/ WWF title over any title he’s won, take a look;

    This shows that Animal thought that LOD thrived in the WWE and values their titles there over any of the other titles. As he stated, it is every wrestlers goal to get to the WWE, this is why when you win titles and do well there, success can be valued over any promotion, because this is the big leagues, with prestigious titles and world class wrestlers.

    So overall, I believe that despite the short amount of time they were there, the Legion of Doom/ Road Warriors, thrived the most in the WWE/ WWF. This is simply because anybody who achieves success in the WWE gains credibility, prestige and worldwide recognition. The Legion of Doom/ Road Warriors thrived in the WWE by being given an 8 month title reign within a year and because of this became one of the best and well known tag teams ever. No other titles compare to the WWE/ WWF titles because of the size of the WWE/ WWF, there is instant recognition worldwide with the WWE/ WWF brand name, and without being there and thriving, Legion of Doom/ Road Warriors would not be as successful or considered as one of the best tag teams ever.
     
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    Mr. TM likes this.
  4. Milkyway!

    Milkyway! Hodor!

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    The Road Warriors, have certainly put on great matches to and fro anywhere they went. The Road Warriors were ranked the Number 1 tag team 4 times according to PWI. From 1983-1985, and again in 1988. The Road Warriors certainly accomplished more throughout their time in WcW, NWA, and AWA compared to their accomplishments in WWF/E. On top of The Road Warriors made much more history throughout their time in the WcW, NWA, and AWA compared to the bump in the road they made in the WWE.

    The Road Warriors main runs, and biggest times throughout professional wrestling history, are considerably 1983, 1984, 1985, and 1988. Why? Because PWI has them ranked as the number 1 tag teams ever, those years. PWI has always been a great source of information for me, and is mostly a trustworthy site when it comes to wrestling. The one thing I would like you to notices is simple.

    1983 - Road Warriors were in GCW
    1984 - AWA
    1985 - AWA
    1988 - NWA

    All of these years, The Road Warriors were not in WWE, and obviously prevailed the most in the AWA, and NWA.

    Judging by accomplishments, its also easy to tell which promotion the Road Warriors were more accomplished in. Throughout their career their accomplishments include:

    Accomplishments throughout NWA:

    NWA World Six-Man Tag Team Championship (3 times) – with Dusty Rhodes (2) and Genichiro Tenryu (1)
    NWA World Tag Team Championship (Mid-Atlantic version) (1 time)
    Iron Team Tournament (1989)
    Jim Crockett Sr. Memorial Cup (1986)

    Accomplishments throught AWA:

    AWA World Tag Team Championship (1 time)

    Now compare their accomplishments to their short years in the WWE to the accomplishments made in other companies. While they didn't hold the WcW world titles, they not only strived, but broke through during their times in all three companies. While during their time with the WWE, they did absolutely nothing worth mentioning.

    To SK I challenge you, to name one fued, that even almost matches the fueds The Road Warriors had with the following teams.

    1) The Freebirds
    2) The Four Horseman
    3) Midnight Express
    4) The Stieners
    5) Harlem Heat

    Then go on, and find me matches in the WWE, that are half as good as these, let alone anywhere close to being better.

    [youtube]4OSlncfDaM0[/youtube]

    [youtube]TzPXGPI_HUs[/youtube]

    [youtube]M8CFnnCB4Uc[/youtube]

    [youtube]Vp6HlqSA8pM[/youtube]

    [youtube]GLbx_k76NeM[/youtube]

    [youtube]efKuizQuyLk[/youtube]

    [youtube]vdCkgCeTRgo[/youtube]

    On top of all of these things, the Road Warriors made their biggest note in history, while in NWA, AWA, WcW. During their time at these three promotions, they were in one of the most important matches ever a Scaffold match at Starcade 1986, which litterally stole the show. The 1987 wargames, when they created history, and going on to compete in 14 out of 24 of the war games. Their fueds with The Four Horsemen, helped the Horsemen get over majorly, and partially causing much of their fame to come into record. In 1989 they competed in what came to be known as 1989 Ironman Tag Team Tournament. While in the WWE, they were simply tag team champions for 8 months, nothing meaningful happened. Its obvious to me, that the Road Warriors were not only better, more accomplished, but truely historical during their times in the promotions of WcW, NWA, and AWA.
     
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  5. Milkyway!

    Milkyway! Hodor!

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    I fully believe you're talking out your ass.

    During the 1980's whenever The Road Warriors had most all their glory, you're incorrect. Today, you would be correct though.

    Sorry, you need to get your timeline as to when the WWE took over the wrestling world. It was mid-late eighty's when they took over America, and went national if I'm not mistaken. The Road Warriors prime, and when they stood out the most were in the Early-mid eighty's.

    Longivity has a lot to do with striving in an area. I can go to a place where the soil isn't very rich, yet has never been farmed on. Get the best crops for about 1-2 years. Then, nothing will grow without the outside help of fertilizers, etc. Thats not striving, by any means.

    Actually, their time spent in the WWE was less than the time they spent in the AWA. The Road Warriors were much more accomplished in the AWA then they were in the WWE, which nulls your arguement, entirely.

    Funny, title reigns were given out in the eighty's? Please, this could very well be considered the glordy days of tag team wrestling.

    Once again your arguement means nothing here. They were in the AWA less than they were in the WWE, only having one title reign. A title reign that lasted 400 days, to be exact. During a time, when tag team wrestling was at its peak, they held the title for over a year.

    The Road Warrior's size and strength did that alone. They were excellent, and dominated anywhere they went.

    Which is one of the most shit gimmicks, I've ever seen in my entire life. Another reason they didn't "strive" in the WWE.


    I couldn't find the year this was conducted, nor where it was at. By the way, who is this Eric guy? I can't find any good sources, on what this has on anything.

    How do I know, Animal wasn't under the WWE contract at this time. If so, hes damn near forced by contract to promote, and only promote the WWE. As well as, his brother played a fairly important role backstage, obviously hes going to blow smoke up their ass.

    They thrived by the tip of their finger. While in the AWA/NWA/WcW they not only thrived, but they were ontop of the mountain, eating like a King.

    Thats called a monopoly, folks.

    Best and well known tag teams ever? :wtf: Their biggest fued was probably agaisnt Demolition, a weakend Demolition, at that. While in the AWA/NWA/WcW they had fueds and matches with The Fabulous Freebirds, Midnight Express, The Four Horseman, Jumbo Tsuruto and Genichiro Tenryu, Powers of Pain, etc. These men put on 5 star matches, with some of the greatest preformers in the history of professional wrestling while in NWA/AWA/WcW.

    You're severely, severely wrong when you say this, and I almost want to question your inteligence because of such a thing. The Road Warriors were one of the most dominant forces in professional wrestling history, and hardly any of that dominance comes from being in the WWE.
     
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  6. SK

    SK I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaack

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    But overall if the LOD had stayed in the WWE as long as they did in WCW/ NWA/ AWA, they would have picked up a lot more accolades and awards form PWI and would have been given more title reigns. Sure, their time was short in the WWE, but despite that they thrived there, and are remembered as one of the best tag teams ever despite only being there for 3 years.

    PWI is not the gospel, and if they were in the WWE for the amount of time they were in other promotions, I guarantee they would have would that award many times. You can’t just say that LOD thrived more in other promotions simply because they have more accolades there. The impact they made in the WWE goes way beyond titles, it gave them national and international recognition, and it’s because of this they thrived in the WWE.

    In WCW (WWE’s rival promotion and closest contender) they couldn’t even get a title reign, how did they thrive there? It’s not just that they didn’t get titles in WCW, they didn’t make any impact and certainly weren’t one of the most remembered WCW tag teams. Whereas in the WWE they had two title runs (including a huge 8 month one) within three years.

    Maybe they didn’t have as good matches or feuds in the WWE, but once again that’s purely opinion on anyone’s part. But the reason they thrived in the WWE wasn’t because of match quality, it was because of booking, because of national and international exposure, it’s because of leaving a huge impact, despit being there for three years. They did have notable feuds against the Nasty Boys, Demolition and Money Inc though in their first run in the WWE.

    I’ve already said it, I’m not going to discredit or denounce their work outside of the WWE. They had great matches everywhere they went. I think you need to admit this as well, it seems as though your trying to completely ignore anything they did in the WWE, your ignoring the impact they made and the exposure they gained. I think you need to realise that if it weren’t for the WWE, LOD wouldn’t have as much history, they wouldn’t have won the trifecta (AWA/NWA/WWE tag titles) and we wouldn’t be having this debate. The WWE offered much more than titles reigns, LOD thrived because they were booked as dominant monsters, gained huge exposure and are remembered as a great WWE tag team despite the short amount of time with the company.
     
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  7. SK

    SK I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaack

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    Your probably making statements like this to get the emotionality point, but your coming off as an immature child who has to hide behind immature statements like this to try and win debates. Obviously you aren’t meant to agree with me but grow up and debate like an adult and just state that you disagree.

    Yes they did take over in the mid late eighties, but the Legion of Doom/ Road Warriors joined the WWE in 1991, after WWE took over wrestling in America. This meant national exposure for the LOD, one of the reasons they thrived in the WWE.

    Firstly, it’s ‘thriving’, not ‘striving’, secondly why the fuck are you talking about crops, how is this generalisable to wrestlers? If your going to use an analogy to make your point, try to make it somewhat coherent and understandable, here you have just given possibly the worst analogy of wrestling I have ever heard.

    How does that null my argument? It’s purely your OPINION that they accomplished more in the AWA, just because they had a longer title reign, that doesn’t mean they accomplished more, you have to look at each promotion separately, with the level of competition and history and prestige of the belts. In my opinion, the WWE tag team belts at the time were more prestigious and there was a better level of competition, meaning LOD thrived there.

    Don’t put words in my mouth, I never said tag titles were given out in the eighty’s, and the glory days could be argue to be in between in the mid 80’s to early 90’s.

    Again, that’s your opinion when the peak of tag team wrestling was, but it was certainly at a good point in the early 90’s when LOD held the titles in WWE. They may have held the AWA tag titles for longer, but the WWE tag titles were more valued and they had better competition than the AWA, this is why they thrived, because of the stiff competition and the length of their reign despite that competition.

    You can have any amount of size and strength, but at the end of the day it all comes down to booking, LOD weren’t just strong, they were booked as dominant and unstoppable in a great tag team division, fans thought that they were unbeatable, this is because of how they were booked, not just how they looked.

    It’s THRIVE, seriously pick up a dictionary if your going to try and debate, strive and thrive are completely different words, this is the second time you’ve used strive now which is stupid considering it has a completely different meaning to thrive, you know, the word in the question.

    My point wasn’t that is was a good gimmick, it’s that they had to be given a playful gimmick to make them seem less intimidating and beatable.

    Look, you can take that interview however you want, but it’s better than any interview about LOD and titles you’ve put forward, I can appreciate all of the factors you stated but there’s a strong liklihood that Animal said what he meant.

    They clearly thrived in the WWE, in their first (best)run, they were champions for almost 50% of their tenure, I would say that this is considered thriving. Sure they were at the top of AWA/NWA/WCW, but that’s nothing compared to sitting at the top of the WWE.

    You only become a monopoly by being the best, that’s what WWE is, the best, they’ve got prestigious titles, the best wrestlers and a great history that includes the Legion Of Doom.

    Yes they are one of the best and well known tag teams ever, using either the Legion of Doom or Road Warriors name. They had great matches and feuds with teams both in and out of the WWE, however, being in the WWE pushed them to another level. As the Legion of Doom in the early and late 90’s they were given tag title reigns and therefore showcased to a large international audience. They thrived because they had a good title reign in the best wrestling promotion ever and established themselves to a bigger audience, however, that doesn’t take away from their earlier work.

    I’m sorry but how can you question my intelligence when you can’t even spell the word properly, seriously pick up a dictionary or use spell check, because misspelling like that when your trying to insult my intelligence is embarrassing.

    As I’ve stated many times before, I can’t discredit the Legion Of Doom/ Road Warriors for their work outside of the WWE but let me put this in perspective. The Legion of Doom are the 20th highest team with combined reigns, considering that they were only in the WWE for 3 years, this is very impressive. I’m not saying that the WWE made them, but they certainly became more well known both nationally and internationally because of the WWE, if they never went to the WWE, I can guarantee they’d not be as well known.
     
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  8. Milkyway!

    Milkyway! Hodor!

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    If isn't usable in a debate. Sorry.

    They were only in the AWA for 1 and a half years. Whats your point?

    Sorry you're incorrect. They were in the AWA for 1 and a half years. They came into the AWA around July/August of 1984, and left mid-late 1985.

    I fail to see what this has to do with anything? Because The Road Warriors recieve more praise in other promotions, is obviously because they did much much better there. While that may be subjective to a point, its a widely help opinion.

    You just said yourself, the Road Warriors recieve more praise in other promotions than the WWE. The Road Warriors aren't known for their work in the WWE, they're known for their work in Japan, AWA, WcW, and NWA.

    By putting over and keeping the tag team division alive. By helping to create War Games, participating in 14 out of 24 of these games. One of the biggest, and most known gimmick matches in the world. By helping to keep the Four Horseman as over as they were. The Road Warriors were the backbone of WcW's tag team division. Just because they didn't win the titles, doesn't mean they weren't sucessful. The had great fueds, memorable matches, and created a legacy throughout the Wargames.

    Anyone who knows anything about wrestling, knows The Road Warriors dominated WcW tag team wrestling. Maybe to the casual fan, these men aren't huge, such as The Dudleys, Hardy's, or Edge and Christian. But if you research further down into the world of wrestling, one of the first tag teams you will find is The Road Warriors. Their work in WcW was astounding, the team I would consider the founding fathers of the Wargames, was one of WcW's huge trademarks.

    While their achievements, statistically aren't higher in the WcW as they are in the WWE. But you're clearly missing something huge. The Road warriors were in the AWA a very short amount of time, compared to the time they spent with the WWE, 1 1/2 years compared to three, and had a 400 day title reign. A time when Tag Titles were much more prestigous.

    An opinion held by a majority of people.

    The Road Warriors were allready known Nation Wide through their time in the WcW, this arguement is silly. Internationally through their time in Japan, once again, silly.

    If by notable fueds, you mean notable sucky fueds. Then yes.

     
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  9. SK

    SK I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaack

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    Of course ‘if’ is usable in a debate, don’t be so ridiculous. It’s especially usable in this debate considering the short time that the Legion of Doom/ Road Warriors were in WWE, AWA, WCW. You have to use if to weigh up what could and maybe should of happened.

    My Point is that when LOD were in the WWE, AWA was defunct, yes completely inactive, that shows how AWA compares to WWE. Their title reigns meant SO much more in the WWE because the WWE is the biggest promotion in the world and the best. So considering all this, the fact that they were champions for nearly 50% of their time there, proves they thrived.

    Just because you are having good matches and getting praise, this doesn’t mean your thriving - look at Brian Kendrick - had great matches, heaps of praise, but look where he is now, that’s not thriving is it? It’s about so much more than simply having good matches. It’s about they way you are pushed, getting exposure, the competition around you and how you are remembered. For all of these reasons, LOD succeeded and thrived in WWE.

    That’s a ridiculous thing to say, of course they aren’t known in the WWE just for they’re work outside, they went under a completely different name and they didn’t have as much exposure in NW/ AWA, so a lot of fans (especially casual) would have no idea about their past. They are remembered in the WWE for being completely dominant and having a long title reign.

    They were in WCW for less than a year! How on earth were they the backbone of the tag division in WCW? They were poorly utilised in WCW, used just to put the more valued teams over, they clearly did NOT thrive in WCW, completely undervalued and underused!

    Oh did they dominate WCW? Really? They didn’t even get ONE tag title run in a company that loved handing out title reigns, their work in WCW consisted of coming up short against Sting & Lex. Yes they may have been involved in founding war games, but that was in NWA, where the game was originally created. The LOD may not be aswell known as Edge & Christian or The Hardy Boys, but their 2 runs combined added up to more days than all of the Hardys runs and also all of E&C’s runs. That is what you call thriving, when you have longer runs in 3 years than teams do in 10. They were obviously trusted and pushed with the belts.

    Yes tag titles were more prestigious back then, but the WWE was the bigger company, that’s why it was a bigger achievement in the WWE! Their AWA title reign is impressive, but there was less competition and they were in a worse promotion, so that title reign does not match up to their WWE one.


    Are you actually simple? They were in the WWE before WCW! That’s how they got national exposure and most likely why WCW signed them. Also they were known in Japan, but that’s ONE country, fans in countries outside of the USA and Japan wouldn’t have know who they were if it wasn’t for the WWE.

    Completely disagree. The worst part of their career was easily WCW, they didn’t found war games in WCW, they did that in NWA, they didn’t even get given a title run in WCW, that part of their career was easily the worst. Now, while they might have had better matches and feuds outside of WWE, they certainly gained a bigger fan base in the WWE, had a lengthy title run and will be remembered as a great tag team, even with the short amount of time they were there.

    NO, they were in the WWE before they went to WCW, that’s how they got national exposure, and they hardly made a ‘HUGE’ name for themselves in Japan did they? They were there for 2 years, they had more success in their second run in Japan, after being in the WWE.

    I though you said ‘if’ wasn’t usable mr. hypocrite? Plus who’s to say they would have won the WCW tag titles? They certainly didn’t win them when they were there, so why would you assume that they would later on? However, they DID win tag titles in the WWE (you know, the worlds biggest and most successful promotion), they clearly thrived more in the WWE than WCW. They also thrived more in WWE compared to NWA/ AWA because those two promotions didn’t offer the huge exposure that WWE did. NWA and AWA didn’t offer the exposure that the WWE had, their titles were nowhere near as valued or prestigious, The Road Warriors had less competition for the titles in either promotion. They thrived in the WWE, not for the quality of their matches, but for the fact that it’s the biggest and best promotion ever, where they are remembered as a legendary tag team, even though they were only there for 3 years, that IS thriving.
     
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  10. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    No reason in splitting points when someone has left the league.

    tdigle's Score
    Milkyway! - 0
    SK -5
     
    #10
  11. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Clarity of debate- 1 point
    The Debates were clear so that is nice. However, spelling is an issue that can be distracting. Milk, if you were still in this, I would ask you to spell check more often, so I will give this to SK.

    Punctuality- 1 point
    Milk was a lot better about being on time here. He gets the point.

    Informative- 1 point
    One side had a lot more information to work with, then the other. So obviously I would never judge on who had the advantage in that manner. However Milk did use his information a lot better than SK in this debate to point out factual information.

    Emotionality- 1 point
    I didn't like Milk's attitude towards this debate, quite negative on his opponent. Felt that was unnecessary. SK gets this point

    Persuasion- 1 point
    A hard hard hard debate for SK here. But I knew he could handle it easily. SK had the lower ground to this debate and worked hard to overcome it. He persuaded me some how.

    TM rates this 3 points SK to 2 points Milk.
     
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  12. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: Milky was saying a few different words than he meant, and had some fairly big spelling mistakes.

    Point: SkeptiKal

    Punctuality: SK was late a few times.

    Point: Milkyway

    Informative: Milky, had more information that he used well, given he actually had a lot. SK had less to use, and used it as well as possible, but Milk edged him.

    Point: Milkyway

    Emotionality: Milky came out in his rebuttal like a child. SK remained calm but adament about his argument.

    Point: SkeptiKal

    Persuasion: SK came out firing hard. This portion maybe should be under Informative, but it plays a part in my persuasion as well. Milky, you had a few instances where you said WarGames was created in WCW, and that LOD were in WCW before WWE. You need to shore up your facts in a debate like this. They were in the NWA, which split away into WCW, but it still started in NWA. Not knowing or saying that takes away credibility, which can take away from persuasion. SK stayed true to his facts, and persuaded me.

    Point: SkeptiKal

    CH David scores this SkeptiKal 3, Milkyway 2.
     
    #12
  13. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: Milk dropped out, hopefully to go to school, just kidding milk

    Point: SkeptiKal

    Punctuality: SK was late, milk only dropped out

    Point: Milkyway

    Informative: Milky knew what he was on about, even if I didnt. For that SK gets the point, or I might just split it

    Point: Split

    Emotionality: Milk put his opponent down, he knows what I like, then again SK put his opponent down as well. Hmm, I think SK's attitude was a bit better than Milks in this one though

    Point: SkeptiKal

    Persuasion: Honestly, neither one of you swung me either way, an odd choice of words perhaps. Maybe you were unpersuasive, maybe you were evenly matched. We'll find out next time, although not in Milks case. Split

    Point: Split

    Miko Hayes scores this round SkeptiKal - 3 Milkyway - 2.
     
    #13

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