Week 2: fromthesouth -versus- Thriller

Discussion in 'Debator's League 2009' started by Mr. TM, Aug 9, 2009.

  1. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    The better asset to the Professional Wrestling World? Justin Liger vs Shawn Michaels

    Thriller is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

    Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.
     
    #1
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  2. Thriller Ant

    Thriller Ant Beep Bop Boop

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    I will take Liger. I'll be on tonight or tomorrow with my first argument when I can break in to a building with internet.
     
    #2
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  3. Thriller Ant

    Thriller Ant Beep Bop Boop

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    While Shawn Michaels may be the only name of the two most American wrestling fans recognize, I will argue for a man who changed the face of Japanese wrestling, Keiichi Yamada, better known as Jushin "Thunder" Liger.

    Yamada was an amateur wrestler while studying in high school. He applied to New Japan Pro Wrestling to become a professional wrestler, but was not accepted because they considered him too short. Rather than give up on his dream, Yamada traveled to Mexico to train. He was getting the training he desired, but he was also starving. so NJPW officials who were visiting took pity on him and asked him to come back to Japan. He finally debuted under his real name at the age of 20.

    Soon after, he began traveling in England, then Canada with Stu Hart's Stampede Wrestling promotion. Yamada was even given the honor of training at the famed Dungeon. Eventually, he was called back by NJPW to portray the gimmick of Jushin Liger, which was based off of a character by famous mangaka Go Nagai.

    This is a man who went from being told he was too small, to becoming one of the greatest light heavyweights ever. He is one of the pioneers of the puroresu style we see in Japan today, a mix of high-flying and martial arts. Also, while traveling in Canada, he invented a move we know as the Shooting Star Press. Before this, a moonsault or even a simple splash were considered mind-blowing, and I truly believe that the Shooting Star Press helped open the door to guys doing more and more impressive and difficult flip moves from the top rope.

    Yes, Shawn Michaels may have helped introduce Lucha Libre to the masses in the Rockers, but Liger helped to change an entire country's idea of what professional wrestling is.
     
    #3
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  4. FromTheSouth

    FromTheSouth You don't want it with me.

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    HBK is a far bigger asset to the professional wrestling world.

    HBK helped bring about the Attitude era. This era changed wrestling. It added more shooting, more realism, better stories, and more developed characters. In their primes, their skill in the ring is a wash, but HBK was a game changer. Liger may have opened up the business to smaller guys in Japan, but HBK opened the business to the world.

    HBK earned the title Mr. Wrestlemania because he tends to have his best matches in the biggest moments. Liger, who has had opportunities in America, just never made it.

    Furthermore, as far as being an asset to the wrestling world, HBK's putting you over is a sign of elevation in the WWE. Stone Cold Steve Austin, Jeff Hardy, etc. have all had to have great matches with HBK before winning world titles. It's almost as if HBK is the final test to see how someone performs when it is all on the line. He is the litmus test by which others are measured.



    Liger is a great wrestler, but I don't think that any company in Japan views him as the standard bearer for greatness, while HBK is viewed as




    I HAVE AN EMERGENCY AND NEED TO LEAVE. WITH PERMISSION, I WOULD LIKE TO FINISH THIS LATER THIS EVENING.

    OK, I'm back.


    the standard by which American wrestlers are compared. John Morrison wants to be the next HBK, not the next Liger. As I have stated, Liger is a legendary Japanese star, however, the world wide star is HBK.

    Now, the framing of the question is interesting. It asks which is a better asset. I say, that outside of Japan, HBK draws better, therefore is a better asset to whatever company he works for.

    As far as a lasting legacy, the style of wrestling that is more popular today is HBK's. Liger's character through time has been greatly character driven. Half of his legacy belongs to the creative department and comic book writers. HBK's legacy is based on an image he made, a theme song he sang, and a style that is copied in every match. World Champions all show signature HBK stylistic mannerisms. Jeff Hardy has taken his showmanship and daredevil style. John Morrison is copying his character and attitude. CM Punk incorporates the aerial and martial arts styles. To this day, every wrestler in long pants reminds me of HBK. AJ Styles most reminds me of HBK. In the Rockers and later on in his singles career, HBK has always used a plethora of flying strikes, which form the basis of AJ's offense.

    No one sells like HBK. Every character twist with Liger involves him transforming and overcoming the odds with magic. If I were his opponent, I would always feel shafted in that no matter what I did, the cartooniness of his character overcame me. I understand that that is part of Japanese wrestling, however, it is better for the business, as a worldwide entity, to win with psychology, and make the product look as real as possible. HBK's ability to sell moves and make an opponent look so very real and intimidating in a ring is the reason why he is better for the business. Whereas Liger may be unbelievable, HBK brings everyone to his level, and that makes for better show, which in turn is better for the business.


    But how is changing Japanese wrestling better for the business? I would argue that the the changes he has been a part of have been bad for wrestling. The cartoon aspects really only fly in Japan now. HBK focused on realism and adversity. These are two match aspects that make fans care about the product. Furthermore, Liger's legacy may exist mostly in hardcore match styles now. He spent the majority of his career with chair shots and God knows what else goes on in NJPW. These matches are fun to watch, but ultimately, after the shock value has worn off, what is left but very broken wrestlers? HBK revolutionized the ladder match, but didn't overdo it. He put on a show, made everyone say holy shit, and then went back to working one on one classics.

    I read that on wiki too. :lmao:

    And he brought much of the lucha style to Japan and got shorter wrestlers over. However, he was the Junior Heavyweight, or cruiserweight, champion eleven times. This division is of great importance in Japan, however, it is not the top title. HBK taught American and worldwide audiences that size does not matter, heart does. HBK has allowed Jeff Hardy, Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, CM Punk, and AJ Stlyes chances to be world champions. John Morrison is a contender and the future because of HBK's impact. This makes HBK better for the business.
    And he got a comic book character very over with the help of writers, stunts, and gimmicks. HBK got himself over. We believe he is the Heartbreak Kid in every aspect of his life. I would argue that Liger's greatest strength, his gimmick and persona, would still finish second to HBK. Liger has had to make changes over his career to keep the character fresh, while HBK is the same guy that threw Marty Jeneatty through a barbershop window.
    This is an interesting point. Liger's contribution to wrestling is the degree of difficulty. He was and is an innovator in everything he does. The problem here, is that the guys who try to be like him end up being spot monkeys who look good and flop around like fish out of water, however, HBK took a fast paced style and combined it with great psychology to tell a better story. I think that HBK's storytelling legacy is better for the business in that a well told story gets fans behind a guy, and makes them care about his week to week appearances, as opposed to excited for a couple of flips and maybe some blood.

    So did HBK. As I have said, HBK's combination of styles and psychology if what forms the basis of every great match we see now. You can see a bit of HBK in all of today's stars, while Liger's style doesn't translate well from generation to generation.
     
    #4
  5. Thriller Ant

    Thriller Ant Beep Bop Boop

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    All the Attitude Era did was make wrestling more popular by not focusing on wrestling. It became storyline and character driven rather than in-ring action driven. Plus, Shawn was injured and out of action for most of what is considered the actual Attitude Era.

    Liger never made it because he is a wrestler, not a sports entertainer. He got over pretty well in WCW, but without the ability to speak English well enough to further storylines, he couldn't make it on his outstanding in-ring ability alone.

    There are multiple guys in the WWE like this. Cena, Triple H, Undertaker, etc. Would you say that all of them changed the business?

    Liger is known worldwide, and is the mold from which most modern Japanese wrestlers are created. You can't say that about Shawn.
    It is a well known fact that Shawn didn't draw that well when he was champion. As for modeling styles, he created his own style, which became the model for puro, which is now the major form of pro wrestling in Japan. He has influenced countless numbers of wrestlers.

    Liger is often a superface, ala Hogan and Cena, so that is how his matches go. To be able to pull off something that, however, you have to be able to sell well to make the audience in that much more awe of a comeback.


    He did do hardcore matches, but go back and look at his matches in WCW. He kept up with guys like Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, and Dean Malenko in their primes. You can't pigeonhole him like that.

    I forgot to cite that I used wiki. Sorry :banghead:

    While it may not be the top title necessarily, it is the style that most people think of when they think of Japanese wrestling. As for HBK proving that size doesn't matter, he may have been the one to make it believable for "smaller" guys to become world champion, but they are easily still the exception, not the rule. Look at Raw, the title has been contested between mainly four guys in recent months: Batista, John Cena, Randy Orton, and Triple H. Shawn might have opened the door, but it hasn't been opened very much.

    And he got a comic book character very over with the help of writers, stunts, and gimmicks. HBK got himself over. We believe he is the Heartbreak Kid in every aspect of his life. I would argue that Liger's greatest strength, his gimmick and persona, would still finish second to HBK. Liger has had to make changes over his career to keep the character fresh, while HBK is the same guy that threw Marty Jeneatty through a barbershop window.


    The part I bolded says so much to how great Liger was. Many guys who try the style do end up looking like "spot monkeys" (sorry, I hate that term), but the fact that Liger didn't speaks so much toward how well he did perform in the ring. He told great stories in the ring, and accented them with moves that no one had ever seen before. Liger could fly, brawl and/or mat wrestle, depending on the match. Not many men can pull off several different styles like that, and, to his credit, I will admit that Shawn is one of them. The difference is that Liger added more to the sport when he did it, while Shawn just took moves from Mexico and moved them north.

    How does Liger's style not translate? CM Punk, Evan Bourne, Bryan Danielson, Austin Aries, Yoshi Tatsu, guys from TNA I don't know, all of the guys you see mixing high-flying with martial arts type strikes and a solid mat game are using a style that Keiichi Yamada introduced in Japan over 20 years ago.
     
    #5
  6. FromTheSouth

    FromTheSouth You don't want it with me.

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    He brought it about. His character was a bit ahead of it's time. And the wrestling is a small part of the wrestling show. The business was demystified, and because of that, the shows are closer to TV shows. The character driven entertainment provided by HBK is far more of an asset than a character who plays a comic character that caters to a niche audience.

    That proves my side. HBK is a better asset to professional wrestling because of a broad-based universal appeal, as opposed to Liger's niche audience.

    Yes.

    You're right. I can say that HBK is not the mold from which Japanese wrestlers are cut. But he is the mold by which most wrestler in the western world are cut. AJ Styles, John Morrison, Sheikh (TNA), Eric Young, etc., all of these guys would be jobbers had HBK not shown that size and talent are not a direct correlation.

    Both guys have influenced countless numbers of wrestlers, but I would argue that the more famous wrestlers, worldwide, have been influenced by HBK. Furthermore, I find it interesting that you mention HBK's drawing power when at the top of a company, however, you fail to mention that Liger has never been at the top of a company. He's never been the flag bearer for his promotion, while HBK has.

    Either that, or transform into a different character. Look at the business today. Liger would do well along side Papa Shango and Glacier, but today's business is the business defined by HBK over a decade ago.

    But HBK has kept up with Austin, Undertaker, HHH, Jeff Hardy, Cena, etc. HBK wins on this point. I like how you tell me not pigeonhole Liger as a hardcore guy, only to pigeonhole him yourself as a cruiser. HBK works in all divisions, making him a better asset to wrestling.

    You're right. Jeff Hardy and CM Punk never have a chance at having the top feud on a show over the top belt on that show. That would never happen.

    But does any of that make Liger a bigger asset to the business? I would say no. He innovated a very exciting style, for himself, but it doesn't translate very well to other guys, who once again, according to you, "try the style do end up looking like "spot monkeys."

    Or is it a style introduced in the AWA by HBK twenty years ago?

    The question is about who is a bigger asset to the business. Liger, while an exciting performer, is a niche performer who's character does not fit with the world of professional wrestling today. HBK is a universally accepted and loved character who works heel and face very effectively, often puts on the best match on the card, and continually wins awards for best feud, best match, etc. HBK is as much of an innovator as Liger, plus he is more widely accepted. HBK is a bigger asset to the business.
     
    #6
  7. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Good debate guys, Thriller really picked up his game this round, after falling to Xfear easily last time. Let us see how he does against a debater I can see as being a massive power house in the debates.

    Clarity of debate- 1 point
    Both of you did a similar format, and had good grammar. I feel this point is petty to give to one person, but a couple grammar mistakes cost FTS this one.

    Punctuality- 1 point
    I knew Thriller was having a difficult time with his internet, and I hate having to take this point away from him, but I must.

    Informative- 1 point
    Very good with the information here boys, though I would like to see more proofs. I will give you a piece of advice, as the debate goes deeper, maybe throw out some more information to help spice up the debates. One instance where FTS did this caused him to get this point.

    Emotionality- 1 point
    Really, Thriller showed some great emotion here, and I must give him this point.

    Persuasion- 1 point
    The tournament's biggest upset here most would say, and after reading this, I would agree, if I was voting on these two arguments. FromTheSouth gets this point here.

    TM rates this 3 points fromthesouth to 2 points Thriller.
     
    #7
  8. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity of Argument: You always present a very clear argument, fromthesouth, so I'll give you the point here. But, please remember next time to separate your opening argument from your rebuttal.

    Point: fromthesouth

    Punctuality: Read what TM says above.

    Point: fromthesouth

    Informative: I unfortunately can't award this point to either of you. fromthesouth, you would have won this debate hands down had you stayed away from discrediting Liger. Admittedly, Liger is one of my favorite wrestlers ever, and you could say I am biased in this respect, but a lot of what you said about him was just flat out wrong. Yes, Liger is easy to identify because of his colorful apparel and gimmick, but his legacy to the business worldwide goes way beyond this. Many people would agree that, pound for pound, Liger is one of the greatest wrestlers ever. He excelled in high-risk wrestling earlier in his career and did the same later in his career when he transitioned into a more powerful, mat-based style. Furthermore, if there's anyone that can tell a story and orchestrate a perfect match, it's him. Your praise for Michaels was spot on, but you vastly understated Liger's contributions to wrestling. Thriller, this would have been a great opportunity for you to come in and rebut most of what fromthesouth said with just a modest amount of research, but, unfortunately, limited Internet access prevented you from doing so.

    Point: Ø

    Emotionality: Thriller, I believe that you genuinely admire Liger and his contribution to this sport. This is the one good thing that I can say about your argument in this debate. Therefore, I'm awarding you the point.

    Point: Thriller

    Persuasion: Although I found fault with your arguments against Liger, fromthesouth, I can't deny that you made a great argument for Shawn Michaels. You get the point here.

    Point: fromthesouth

    tdigle's Score
    Thriller: 1
    fromthesouth: 3
     
    #8
  9. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    It was a good debate, but I'm curious what it would have been like if Thriller had internet access during this time.

    Clarity of Debate: Both arguments were done very well. But it just seemed like half of fromthesouth's arguments were praising Shawn for what he has done, and the other half just saying that Liger had an impact only in Japan.

    Point: Thriller

    Punctuality: Unfortunately Thriller had internet problems. TM already stated it.

    Point: fromthesouth

    Informative: If Thriller had internet access at this time, he would most likely have put in more information than he did. fromthesouth put in more with the access he had.

    Point: fromthesouth

    Emotion: Thriller seemed more into proving Liger's worth to the business, than fromthesouth. It was almost like FTS was just going on the information we already knew, and kind of taking it for granted, whereas Thriller was doing his best to prove in favor of Liger.

    Point: Thriller

    Persuasion: This is where fromthesouth took it. His argument for Shawn was spot on.

    Point fromthesouth

    CH David scores it, fromthesouth 3, Thriller 2.
     
    #9
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  10. Marquis

    Marquis Registered User

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    Clarity - Thriller
    I agree with Diglett that you should separate your opening argument and rebuttal next time FTS. You both provided a pretty clear argument, but because of FTS's slight mistake he made I feel, I give thriller the point.

    Punctuality - FTS
    What TM said.

    Informative - FTS
    FTS provided more information and evidence to support that HBK is star that can almost do it all in wrestling, along with him having a impact on stars of the future, so I award him the point.

    Emotion - FTS
    FTS stood by his argument and never staggered. He always had the right rebuttal, leading me to believe he truly believed in his argument, making me award him the point.

    Persuasion - FTS
    I came into this debate thinking that Liger would hands down win this debate, but FTS persuaded me otherwise, which is impressive I think since I'm not a fan of HBK's at all.

    FTS - 4 points
    Thriller - 1 point.
     
    #10

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