WCW Region, Lexington Subregion, First Round: (3) Randy Savage vs. (30) Jim Londos

Discussion in 'WCW Region' started by klunderbunker, Mar 16, 2015.

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Who Wins This Matchup?

  1. Randy Savage

  2. Jim Londos

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    This is a first round match in the WCW Region, Lexington Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under WCW Rules. It will be held at Rupp Arena in Lexington, Kentucky.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    #3. Randy Savage

    Vs.

    [​IMG]

    #30. Jim Londos



    Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

    Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.
     
    #1
  2. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    Jim Londos was one of the early greats; he had a single World Championship reign that only Lou Thesz surpassed and was worshiped in both the States and his native Greece (were 100k people turned out to watch him wrestle)... but there is no way I could justify voting him over Randy 'Macho Man' Savage.

    Length of reigns and popularity are nice... when comparing apples with apples. Londos was a legend in a time of little TV and long realistic (ie boring) grappling contests. Move that forward to a company that existed from the late 80s just into the 00s, where wrestling ability, physical presence and personality on screen are the benchmarks and the 5'8" 200lb guy wouldn't have a chance against the 6'2" 237lb epitome of charisma.
     
    #2
  3. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    I was hoping to get here before the uninformed people did, but I was hungry and ate first.

    And why not? Anything Savage did Londos did better and then some.

    Uh no... when Londos hit his peak the time when stars were working 5+ hour matches were long since over. And there was a reason why matches went that long too. Though that era was before his prime. His matches were hardly boring, considering he drew millions of fans over his career with his heyday being when most people didn't have money to spend on high profile wrestling matches. But they did so anyway. Because Londos was that good. He and Strangler drew a house of nearly $100,000 in 1934. That's about $1.7 million in today's money. And with no added sponsors, million dollar marketing campaigns, or undercard to sell them.

    Really? Savage was a steroid pumper. He wasn't natural. Give Londos steroids, an updated diet, and exercising regime and he'd probably be the same size as Savage. Not a good argument.

    Also Jimmy defeated plenty of guys that were bigger and stronger than him. That was his whole gimmick. Find someone bigger, stronger, uglier and kick their ass. Then get money and bitches. Watch him hold his own against Primo Carnera - a 6'6 275 pound world champion boxer who had a pro wrestling match streak lasting longer than Goldberg's.

    [youtube]l5vCKucSJow[/youtube]

    Here he is against Bronko Nagurski - a champion NFL player and one of the best players to play that game, who once hit a brick wall so hard he cracked it. And was barely fazed.

    [youtube]bCqTaTC9vXw[/youtube]

    If Londos could handle these guys, along with the 6'0 260 pound strong as an ox Strangler Lewis, then he could handle Randy Savage.

    Londos was a better draw than Savage and was more consistent. Savage was big in WWE but wasn't anywhere close to that level in WCW. Londos was a top headliner even after his prime. In fact he went 20 years [probably more] without ever doing a single job because promoters revered him that much, and fans still treated him like a living legend. Evidenced by the fact be was still drawing big gates years later. So he was better in kayfabe. He's one of the greatest pro wrestlers in history up there with Hogan/Austin/Thesz/Cena.

    You would vote Savage over those guys so why Jim Londos? Don't be blinded by bias and ignorance. Vote Jim Londos.
     
    #3
  4. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    Nothing wrong there, ya gotta eat - even when it's WZT time.

    How? While Jim is a one time world champ and held it for a long long time, Savage's 6 title reigns ain't exactly poor - especially when you consider they were all at a time when perennial limelight hogger Hogan was in full effect.

    Nice twist, but what competition was there to compete with? Jim performed at a time when TV was either non-existent or in it's infancy AND wrestling was picked as simple cost effective programming. This argument of draw comes out every tournament, name someone who didn't draw as a headliner - wrestling was the draw because of very limited entertainment options, the wrestlers were secondary.

    Steroids won't make him 6 inches taller... (and going by the videos - it could be more than 6 inches).

    All very well and good but in this day and age, believability is a consideration. Savage is a known commodity in the ring, Londos's adaptability and size constraints make this a complete supposition.

    Again, name a World Champion from this period that wasn't a massive draw - the sport was the draw more than the wrestlers. Being revered is very nice but would you want to see a Daniel Bryan or a Rey Mysterio beating top monsters well into their 50s? Let's be completely honest, the old guard in wrestling really played up to wrestling being legitimate to take kayfabe to levels that just wouldn't be accepted now.
     
    #4
  5. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    Yup.

    No. Londos was 5 time world champion. He worked in an era where there were many world champions that both fans and promoters recognized. So that meant that wherever he went legions of different fans thought he was the best. And he was a world champion of some sort for a combined 16 years. Nobody else in all of wrestling history spent more time as a major heavyweight champion than Jim Londos other than Lou Thesz.

    So we can count accolades as something Londos did better.

    Plenty considering that there many other huge draws at the time as well as corrupt promoters willing to do anything to make an extra dollar. To the point where it would make Vince McMahon look like Mother Teresa. In fact Londos was such a huge draw that a few promoters tried to gang up on him to try and muscle him out of the Northeast because he was taking fans away from them. It didn't work.

    When Savage went to WCW he wasn't nearly as big as he was in WWE. I wonder why? Could have been that WCW didn't use him correctly. However he was champion there 4 times right? And yet Jim Londos was a headliner everywhere. In fact he was setting gate records in most cities he worked that stood for decades. In New York he set records that stood for 20 years unti the 1960's. He established business in area where there had been no business before. His sheer level of popularity and impact with the casual fan was on a different than Savages. Clearly.

    So we can chalk up drawing power and longevity and consistency to the things Londos did better.

    And yet Londos was still drawing large sized gates on a regular basis. WWE currently averages less than 10,000 per show.

    https://sites.google.com/site/chris...ngstatistics/wwe-attendance-by-city-2008-2013

    And they have all sorts of marketing and promotional tactics and stars at their disposal. Londos was just one man.

    Not in Londos's day. Organized promotions did not exist. At best it was a promoter with a few exclusive contracts. And most of those were based on a handshake and a smile. And many were broken.

    As if height matters. See Daniel Bryan.

    And it wasn't back then? The fans didn't know wrestling was choreographed. What they saw they instantly believed. It they believed Londos could kick the ass of a champion boxer with an 89-14 record and who was more dominant in kayfabe than Goldberg, or Strangler Lewis - who had defeated Londos 14 times before they met in 1934. This was a man that had Olympic level wrestlers lay down for him because they knew they Lewis would maul them in a double cross. The fans still thought "hey Londos can win."

    So please, tell me why Londos couldn't defeat Randy Savage? Savage lost countless times. Londos reached a point where he stopped losing all together. Even late career when he was mostly an attraction.

    Again, not in Londos's day. In fact wrestling took a hit once the public found out the outcomes were fixed. It nearly destroyed the industry. Guess who was an integral component of keeping the industry alive after that? Jim Londos.

    Doesn't matter what I want or want you want. Because that's exactly what Londos's fans wanted to see time and time again. And that's what they got.

    That's because the wrestling industry itself chose to expose kayfabe for what it was. WWE chose to distance themselves from the athletic commission, labeling themselves "entertainment" just to say a few dollars in the long run. The thing is that kayfabe could easily go back to the way it was. Promoters and wrestlers managed to keep it hidden for 60 years.

    Bottom line. Vote Jim Londos.
     
    #5
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  6. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Someone who wrestled before television was broadcast every day is always going to be something of an enigma in a tournament like this. Sure, Londos was a champion for a long time, but he didn't really capture the imagination the way guys like Lou Thesz and Verne Gagne would years later. I guess the fact he wasn't really a true wrestler actually makes him a bit ahead of his time, but the reality is Londos belongs to a pre- WWII era that isn't really relevant or the same sport as this any more, so I'm going Savage.
     
    #6
  7. Mighty NorCal

    Mighty NorCal SHALL WE BEGIN?

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    Aye. Jim Londos is actually the number one draw in the history of wrestling, with tickets, market share and adjusted finance for inflation. Im not joking, look it up.


    Vote Londos.
     
    #7
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  8. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    How do you figure? A pre war superstar may not have the benefits of television, but they traveled. Allot. have you not noticed that most men that were on top for long periods of time during that era wrestled thousands of matches? Like 5,000 or more easily. Wrestlers today, or even since the start of the modern era, didn't wrestle nearly as much and they didn't travel as much. That's how they spread the appeal. And the newspapers covered wrestling religiously. So even if you lived in the midwest or the northeast you could follow what was going on with the top stars when they traveled west or south or to Canada or Europe. And of course radio was dominant by the 1920's. Ed Lewis and Jim Londos both became household names and enjoyed popularity on par with the Babe Ruth's and the Jack Dempsey's of the sports world because of radio.

    So even though fans couldn't see the top stars on television they could still hear about them and read about them.
     
    #8
  9. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    I mean there's absolutely no way a modern audience could look at what they did in the same context as what they can see with their own eyes and make a judgement. I have an idea of what it would have been like to watch Lou Thesz wrestle, as I can go on Youtube and watch Lou Thesz wrestle, same with Santo and Rikidozan.

    The problem with guys before that is that they were wrestling at the crossroads between legitimate sport and fake wrestling and its impossible to judge how much they were doing of the latter rather than the former. Londos probably was a fake wrestler, but given that any primary source wrote it up as legitimate, I don't know how much credence we can give him in a professional wrestling tournament.
     
    #9
  10. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    There are some Jim Londos matches on Youtube. Not full length ones mind you, but long enough to get a feel for his appeal. When I first heard of him and found that he was like 200 pounds soaking wet I was skeptical. But reading put what I later watched into context. Now I can see why fans liked Londos. He was tenacious as a pitbull and would continuously pound his opponent until they couldn't take it anymore.

    If I hadn't of read up on guys like Thesz or Gagne first before watching I probably wouldn't have understood their appeal or the extent of their abilities either.

    Well no. The fans already knew the matches were rigged by that time. In fact fans stopped betting on pro wrestling matches in the late 10's or so, which is why big stars worked those boring 5+ hour matches; to dupe the gamblers. They made more money that way. Eventually fans got wise and stopped placing bets and that was when wrestling starting losing it's appeal as a "real" sport. Fans bet on boxing all the time. They couldn't on pro wrestling.

    Fans didn't know wrestling was choreographed until, what, the 80's maybe? That meant the NWA spent 40 years fooling fans into watching what they believed was a real contest even if they knew the outcomes might be fixed because they had been in the past. So it's hard to judge how "real" or "choreographed" that era was too. Since double crosses remained common up until like the 70's.

    He was. Or at least he wasn't as skilled as most fans believed him to be. And it shows how good the actual hookers of the day were at carrying him, and how good a worker Londos was for keeping up the mystique for so long. His career did continue into the television era where he was still treated like a big star.

    And of course any primary source would have said Londos was the real deal and that the matches were the real deal, because it would have been a detriment to the industry if someone found out a top champion wasn't the real deal. See the Wayne Munn fiasco.
     
    #10
  11. Mr. Artistic guy

    Mr. Artistic guy Better Off This Way

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    The thing with wrestling is that it's a state of evolution. The things that are successful at one time are usurped by the progression that goes on subsequently. You can stick a guy like Macho Man back in an earlier era and he'd prosper, not only because he was a top athlete, but because he knew how to work a crowd expertly which is not a concept as readily explored previously.

    Similarly, you stick a guy like Londos in a future era and he struggles. People have seen bigger and wilder and flashier and the slowed down, dragged out approach is dull to the senses. That's why it's hard to compare a guy like Savage to someone wrestling like 50 good years prior. The markets are different. All we really know is that both men were as successful as you could get in the means of being successful in wrestling at that given time.

    All you really have left to do is decide which one you like more and for me, naturally, it'll be the guy that I can relate to more, digging his style for a long time which is Macho Man. It's the only accurate means of comparison. Which man stands better as a timeless commodity.
     
    #11
  12. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    Except wrestlers back then totally worked audiences. Ed Lewis was wrestling's first true bad guy, and he worked the crowd into a rioting frenzy almost on a regular basis. Before that when fans were still betting on wrestling matches wrestlers would work ungoldy long boring matches as a way to make the hometown favorite lose and swindle gamblers out of their money.

    If anything it was the "working" part that evolved. Macho's fans knew wrestling was both choreographed and fixed. Londos's fans just knew that some of the matches in the past had been fixed. In reality it had been most, and wrestlers back then were so skilled they continued to dupe audiences into believing worked matches were real.

    Nope. Londos could easily talk on camera in front of millions. He spoke to reporters and sports writers in very city he traveled to get himself over, and spoke publicly in front of thousands of fans all the time. It was the only way to get people to notice you back then.

    Saying Londos wasn't charismatic enough, or couldn't adapt to do what Savage did is pretty ignorant.

    That's because pro wrestling is no longer presented as a sport and wrestlers aren't trying to dupe their fans into watching a fixed "legit" contest. Nowadays it's entertainment. So wrestlers can get away with much more on their quest to entertain.

    Back to your previous point I question on whether or not Savage could have been successful in the past. Being a legit shooter was a prerequisite for being a NWA champion and the AWA peddled those types for decades. It was until Capitol Wrestling in the 60 and 70's started pushing men like Rocca did things change. In the 50's and 60's Savage probably wouldn't have risen above mid territory level with his skills because he lacked the proper tools to be a main eventer in that era. We'd have to warp reality so that he'd be able to learn how to shoot first.

    Even in 40's where carnival freak types like Maurice Tillet were top draws STILL had grappling skills. Londos himself was a hooker. Just not on the supreme level of his peers. he also had unmatched charisma and good looks and presence, which is why he rose higher than most of them too. Savage may have been champion in the 20's or 30's when non wrestling types like Sonnenburg and O'Mahonny and Munn were given title, but he would have been heavily protected at all times.

    Yeah, and Londos was far, far better at working his market than Savage was his.

    If we're going subjective in this tournament then I vote Kane every round.

    Should have voted Londos.
     
    #12
  13. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost squashed Disco Inferno to become

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    Randy Savage and I'm not bothering to look up Londos and I will admit I know my old school, but I dunno much about this man. But here's the thing, Savage is someone who will go down in history as a pop culture icon. People who dunno much about wrestling still know the 'ooooooh yeahhhhh'. He is someone who went beyond wrestling and tha gives him leeway in a lot of conversations when you say who was one of the greatest of all times.

    Macho Man
     
    #13
  14. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    You should considering that Londos was the dominant draw in wrestling during the Depression and before WW2. Not only did he continuously draw huge gates from crowds that did not have a whole lot of money to spend on sports and entertainment, but he established business in areas that had not been drawing good business before. Like New York. Londos was the first big megastar in the city because for years promoters and wrestlers could not draw the fans. Londos did. And the war that was created to curb his influence, because his popularity was basically monopolizing the fans in the area, started a wrestling tradition in the Northeast that would eventually lead to the creation of the WWE decades later.

    Like I said earlier, whatever Savage did Londos did better.

    EDIT: Also the "oooh yeah" is more associated with the Kool Aid Man for people outside wrestling circles than it is Randy Savage.
     
    #14
  15. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost squashed Disco Inferno to become

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    Macho Man has an association with that phrase and is known outside the circle is what I meant.

    I have voted for Mach Man and while I do profess, like I did before, Londos is one of those guys that I am not all that familiar with. He sounds like a good story, I just might look him up on YT
     
    #15
  16. Mr. Artistic guy

    Mr. Artistic guy Better Off This Way

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    Within the bounds of the level to which working audiences had progressed by that point. A promo that a guy would've done then would've sent crowds wild I'm sure, but would be no comparison to what a guy could do later relatively. You stick Ric Flair as a promo back in those times and crowds more than go wild, they riot.

    Which to me seems like a point to Macho Man. Although of course far from the whole audience knew about wrestling being booked still in the 80s because of the Santa Claus-esque reverence it's treated with the young especially and the fact many fans alone just didn't know, to work a crowd who know that you're working and gain the kindof reactions Macho Man did is incredible, if true.

    But placing it the other way round isn't...

    Look, I'm sure Londos was sufficient and ample for his era, but Macho man was a beacon in an era of big talkers. That was his best asset and what most people remember him for to this day. He cant' compare in the talking game because he wasn't specifically adapted for it. His bread and butter was what he did in the ring.

    I still wouldn't say that's accurate of Macho Man's time. I knew when I was growing up, it was the attitude era and late WCW on my T.V. screen, and I still didn't know it was real until about 2001 when there was a documentary I saw. If you can watch the ridiculousness of some of the things I saw at that time and not still know it was real, than the golden era would've seemed far more legitimate by comparison.

    In reality, Macho Man was just a guy that seemed like a big character in an era of big characters. But his was one of the biggest and one people bought into.

    I see your point of course, but the picture I'm trying to portray that by the time they'd gotten to what was going on in the ring, Macho Man would've already drawn enough heat so that it mattered less what he did in the ring. People would've just wanted to see him get his arse kicked.

    He would use some classic heel techniques like running away, using ropes, etc to draw heat in the match and drag it out into a longer contest. He may not win, but he'd draw people consistently due to the abilities he accrued during his specific time period.

    I obviously have to disagree here. Macho Man was working within a national promotion. Drawing is a different animal in that environment to the one Londos was used to. He was WWE champion and drew huge crowds that rivaled Hulk Hogan, you can't really do any more than that as Hogan was the benchmark of the period.

    Macho Man is so well regarded that he has next to no detractors in an era of pessimism and bringing guys down a peg. His ability and impact are transcendental and forever. He thrived in a more competitive era and that's relatively worth every bit Londos' skewered achievements decades previous.

    Or we can be objective and vote Savage.

    It's not too late to pencil a vote in.
     
    #16
  17. Dmbfantomas

    Dmbfantomas Bald Billy was Better

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    Gone With the Wind is the highest grossing movie of all time if you adjust for inflation. If you were to put it out as new now, I doubt hardly anyone would care.

    Just because something did well a very long time ago, doesn't mean it would adapt to today now. I'm not saying Savage would be a huge star now either, but he'd have a far easier time adapting.
     
    #17
  18. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    How do you figure exactly? What exactly could Flair have done to drive them any more crazy, insult their mothers? Fans back then would have probably thought that juvenile. Insult their lack of wealth? Not many people had money during the Depression. Insult their lack of class? This was back when wrestling was still a coat and tie affair. Seems like Flair would have to be the one to have to reinvent himself to suit the era. Not vice versa.

    And on that note what could Savage have possibly done better to get fans of that era to like him that Londos didn't do? And with the tools Lonods possessed I fail to see how he would not have been able to capture the fans of Savage's era.

    How do you figure? The industry during the 80's was already well on it's way to becoming exposed. It wasn't seen as a sport. Just entertainment. So that meant Savage had allot more freedom of expression in his quest to entertain. Londos did not. Fans thought it was real. So he had to make it look as real as boxing or any contact sport, and still be entertaining to keep fans coming back. He was extremely limited. And for him to have captivated fans all over the world, as long as he did and as hard as he did has to be an overwhelming point in his favor.

    It works both ways actually. Savage could have easily mastered the art of self promotion that was used back then just as easily as Londos could have learned to speak on camera. Don't act like Savage was the perfect talker that never made any mistakes.

    It's totally accurate. That's why you had people hitting each other with chairs, blood flying every, high spots every other second. It wasn't a sport. It was a spectacle. In Londos's time everything had to be executed with such precision, and be unique at the same time. Londos worked thousands of matches and none where the same. He had to be as flexible in his work as Savage did to keep from becoming stale.

    The "eyes through a child" shtick is moot. Of course children think pro wrestling is real. That's part of the magic. But years ago [and this remained true through the 40's, 50's, 60's, and part of the 70's BTW] if you were a child you would have thought wrestling was real and you became an adult still thinking it was real.

    You pretty much described Jim Londos. Or do you not think gimmick wrestlers existed during that time period? The first masked superstar to ever make it big and become popular existed a quarter of a century before El Santo.

    It's a pointless picture, as guys like Ed Lewis did exactly the same thing Macho would have done to get fans to hate him in the past. I don't think you really understand how old some of the concepts of modern day "working" are. The pioneers were just as good as the modern guys at working crowds. The difference is they didn't have the freedom of expression or million dollar advertising and promotional machines backing them.

    Lewis and others used those same tactics on Londos when they fought. Those are not new concepts that somehow came into existence recently.

    A national promotion that did most of his self advertisement for him. In fact he still owes most of his popularity to the strength of the names of the promotions that he either worked for or associated with.

    A more competitive era... totally false. He worked in an era with two dominant promotions, and he played both sides of the fence. Londos worked in an era where their were many world champions because there was nothing stopping promoters from billing their top guy as such. When Londos was champion he was still seen as the king of all world champions.

    And Londos was so popular that rival promoters banded together to try and run him out of the industry because they saw his star power as a detriment to their existence. When all sides finally made peace and worked together Londos and Lewis drew the largest gate in recorded history at that point.

    Do you think WCW or WWE ever saw Savage as being this huge mega draw that would decide the fate of whatever promotion he worked against? Of course not. I don't even think even Hulk Hogan had that distinction.

    Nothing objective in voting Savage at all. A vote for Savage has meant a vote for subjectively, bias, and ignorance. Or in your case straight up denial.
     
    #18
  19. Mr. Artistic guy

    Mr. Artistic guy Better Off This Way

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    I doubt it. It was probably taboo.

    That sounds like a perfect technique for drawing heat tbh.

    Flair, as many of his generation, were flexible as they proved over a significant period of time. If he were dropped in another time, he'd fashion his verbal offence ad hoc.

    I'm not saying Londos wasn't capable in any capacity of knowing how to work his own audience. But Macho Man had the intermittent years between their careers, and all the associated tricks between there and then at his disposal.
    Even if they aren't things he created, he had the ingenuity of those that came after Londos to utilize if necessary. It's the equivalent of people from the future coming back to the now, they have all of our technology, but whatever has been created and enhanced since then to make them superior.

    I'm afraid to say that as you will later propose, Savage's era was an altogether more tawdry affair. If Londos came along in the 80s without all the bells and the whistles that others had accompanying them, he'd have been a veritable snoozefest by comparison.

    But as I tried to put across in my last post, I'm just not convinced that this is true. The art of wrestling has always been, when it's at it's best, to try to create the suspension of disbelief which means to create and aura that what you are watching, despite how over the top it might seem, to be real. You watch fans when Savage and Liz got back together and if they thought it was real. You listen to the gasps when he got bitten by Jake's snake. I bet they didn't think it was fake.

    I'm not going to agree but I'm not going to argue.

    That's what pro wrestling is all about. If you can make people believe that what you are doing is legit. whilst making it incredibly outlandish, that gives you one in the win column over those that couldn't escape the confines of a simple 'two guys in trunks locking up' kind of a gig.

    Easily done if you work matches that regularly run into the hour(s) timelog. Savage had to do the same think in a fraction of the time. And did. If you can take people on a rollercoaster ride in 20 minutes, that's talent.

    Conceded.

    But I mean once again, that's not something you can easily prove. You could just as much say that the lack of belief in wrestling these days stems from the sheer amount of media in existence, from internet to documentary to national columns or news pieces all built upon the fervent dichotomy of the lack of 'reality' in the art of wrestling. Without that, we'd have a few less skewed answer.

    Oh I'm sure there were, but just as sure as I am that a gimmick then was nothing but a precursor to what it later became; honed and adeptly improved by many including Savage. Being a masked wrestler is hardly akin to the scene someone like Jake Roberts could lay out with his tongue.

    Indeed, but I think you fail to understand how such basic and fundamental aspects of wrestling and building a match in tow have been streamlined, honed, mastered by those that followed in the footsteps of the ancestors.

    Guys like Lewis and Londos just simply didn't have the history and further techniques at their disposal than later guys. It's not inherently their fault, but it's something that has to count against them. This is precisely why this tournament always seemed skewed to the newer generations of wrestlers. The gulf is so large that the two banks just seem incomparible. And I thin that's exactly the issue we have here.

    A fact that you can't possible count against him. A wrestler cant work with themselves. He worked in the biggest promotion with the biggest names and was their champion on multiple occassions. You can't possibly get any bigger. He operated at the absolute height of what was available, as did Londos.

    So he worked at the absolute peak of the industry as it was then consistently as a main eventer when he was way past his prime due to his popularity and endearing ability. I don't see what's wrong with that.

    When Savage worked, he became the multiple time world champion of the national organisations which contained all of the champions and stars of the defunct independent territorial corporations making him the top of the top by definition.

    Which of course couldn't have happened in Macho Man's era as there wasn;t the glut of rival promotions that had the clout to try to put McMahon out of business. As I hardly need to tell you, both mega-businesses did eventually try to put each other out of business, and it happened on a far larger scale than promoters simply trying to put one guy out. It simply couldn't have been a reality in Savage's era.

    It's an impressive gate for the time I'll grant you without national exposure and the like, but Hogan and Andre drew north of 93,000, from what I understand in '95 Flair and Inoki drew over 190,000 people in Korea. That's the period in which Macho Man performed and was responsible for drawing this girth of crowd.

    I think we both know that in those two companies (especially WWE), there wouldn't have been allowed to be a guy bigger than the company. He'd have been shown his place or the door, or quietly shifted away if that even seemed like a possibility. The structure was in place at that time not to allow a man to be bigger than the promotion. The promotion was and is a sum of all the performers and nothing more.

    On the contrary, I believe I've put across at least as many good points in my arguments and won't stoop to your juvenile stance of condemning all of my opponents points because I disagree with them. I have heartily enjoyed this debate. I'm a believer that if not debate is won by the time there's been three exchanges, then it's settled. I won't convince you, and you won't convince me despite our own best efforts.

    I just wanted to have at least one of these this tournament. Here's to more.
     
    #19
  20. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    Maybe it was; maybe it wasn't. Let me ask my 92 year old grandfather... he says it was pretty juvenile. Subjective argument.

    Of course he would. But it's moot as any pioneer could be just as successful in Flair's shoes. This idea that they couldn't even though they had the same tools and used the same techniques to get heat is totally stupid.

    But you don't think he could work Macho's, while Savage would be be perfectly at home with Londos audience right? Dumb argument is dumb.

    Nope, he had more creative freedom to entertain audiences. That's it. Londos worked face his whole career. And there wasn't anything he did that Savage couldn't or didn't do to get over as a face. So that's why arguing ability is pretty dumb when they both had access to the same tools and used them well.

    The difference is that Londos was far more popular with his audience than Savage was his. That can't be refuted. That's why Londos should have won.

    No it's not. The pioneers were the one's that created these techniques, and [really] they were the one's that did them the best. They've had countless imitators. Like Coca Cola. But hardly nothing beats the original. Now that doesn't mean that some modern guys haven't come along and done them better, but not every big star of the 80's and 90's can say that they were better than the top pioneer performs. Savage certainly isn't one.

    Horribly untrue. How many techincal-eqse wrestlers who worked a style similar to Londos were popular in the modern era? Countless. Race, Bockwinkel, Hart, Flair, Angle, Jericho, Bryan...

    Combined with his charisma how could any nonbiased person possibly suggest otherwise.

    It is true. And I already explained why it's true. And expect to hear it from me again when Lewis takes on Angle next round. When the business became exposed and suspension of disbelief became necessary, wrestlers still worked to give the allusion of an actual fight, because that's what wrestling had always been about in the past. A fight. Except back then fans had no idea of the choreographed nature of wrestling.

    Pro wrestling was still all about the show back then too. Except the wrestlers did not have the freedom of expression back then as wrestlers do now. Ring wise. I fail to see how that makes modern pro wrestlers better.

    Maybe. But not every match lasted hours upon hours. Many matches were 2 out of 3, and the falls could be won quickly or they could go to the time limit. If there was a DQ fans may have only seen 1 fall. That meant the rematch, same fans would have seen it, had to be worked differently.

    it was the constraints of television shows that have forced modern wrestlers to work 20 minutes or less. Do you not think the pioneers could have have done the same thing? That's like saying Savage couldn't work a 2+ hour match. Of course he could. Just like Londos could have easily told a great story in 20 minutes. Most of his available Youtube matches last that long anyway.

    Point moot.

    Yes I can. The fans did not know wrestling was choreographed because the industry did not allow them to believe it. They allowed the fans to believe matches were fixed, and then wrestlers worked diligently to redupe fans into believing the spectacle was a sport. And then wrestling became ousted because the industry allowed it. And now they rely on S.O.D to stage matches that still look real. I use terms like "heat" and "work" and "face and heel" because the industry has allowed me to know those terms.

    It's nothing that couldn't have been mastered by the pioneers. It's as ridiculous as saying Savage couldn't have been successful back then. Technically he couldn't with his 90's toolset, but if we were to warp reality and allow him to learn how to hook first he would have been successful.

    This is totally false. For 50 years after Lewis and Londos wrestling did not change that much. Even with the addition of television. Thesz, Gagne, Race, and Flair still worked matches under the premised that fans did not know wrestling was choreographed. There's a difference between that and knowing wrestling was a work.

    During the dark period between Gotch and Joe Stecher, the fans of the 20's and 30's looked back at scorn at those guys in that period. Because they knew those matches had been fixed. They thought the matches that Stecher, Londos, and Lewis had were real, genuine shoots because that was part of the work. Just like decades later fans though the matches between Thesz and Gagne were real. Also part of the work. Savage didn't have to worry about that because fans were aware of the choreographed nature of wrestling. All he had to do was entertain. He didn't have to worry about the "work."

    I'm going to ignore the rest because eventually, after we're done arguing ability, which has been proven moot, we're going to come back to drawing power and making money. Which has been the point of being a pro wrestler since Gotch/Hack. Londos was better at making money than Savage. While possessing all the skill, charisma, and ability, but without the evolution [or I guess I should say exposure] of the industry.
     
    #20
  21. Mr. Artistic guy

    Mr. Artistic guy Better Off This Way

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    Ah, your grandpappy's just jaded.

    But that's the point. People such as Flair weren't just using old techniques. They were using older techniques that were refined and improved upon AND techniques created since.

    You seen to be arguing that wrestling didn;t change at all in that time frame which is wrong.

    My argument is that Savage would be BETTER at working the audience of his opponent due to the advantages he's amassed with historical advantages on his side.

    You've been saying this for a while and I don't know where it comes from. Was there some sort of governing body restricting the actions of wrestlers at the time?

    Either guys then were not allowed to go beyond the most very modest expression of wrestling or they weren't capable of doing it for fear of breaking kayfabe and disrupting the suspense of disbelief.

    SOME of the same tools. Things change over time. Basics may remain, but enhancements are, and in this case, were made.

    It's far from irrefutable. Given that Savage's audience was those viewing at home or present in the arenas, he was either totally over as a face, or totally hated as a heel. He was completely over, either way, with his audience. You can't get MORE over than that.

    Besides which, if this tournament, and it very well could be, a way of weeding out those you drew the highest relatively speaking in history, then we may as well form a flipping list and nix the tournament henceforth. More is taken into consideration than that obviously, which is a point that you seem to completely miss.

    There's no logic in that whatsoever.

    On the contrary, it almost sets a precedent for improvement. If you look at the Olympics for instance, year upon year, people improve. This is because they have the advantages of knowledge gained by past generations and the lessons learnt since then to incorporate.

    By utilizing the basic formula as wrestlers did and do, you create a template upon which you can build greater foundations.

    Ugh, so inaccurate. The closest person you'll approach on that list like Londos would be Bockwinkel and even he had to be an ingredient in the cocktail of success that made a regional promotion. All of those other names had a base in technical wrestling but were so much mor well-rounded as competitors that they simply aren't comparable.

    By demonstrating that apples, despite much harping to the contrary, are in fact not oranges!

    I hardly see the sense in that. So... the business was totally exposed but people just kept on doing what they were doing because they had no other ideas. No, rather enough people either didn't know it was scripted, or were able to suspecd their disbelief to create the illusion that it was real and continue to allow it to be successful. I know which is more likely.

    Unless you can prove that this is the case, and not just a case of ancestral wrestlers being limited, I can't really accept that point.

    Let's be honest, every match is different. Short or long, no two snowflakes are the same. It's a hurdle all wrestlers of all generation have had to contend with, keeping things updated.

    I'm not convinced they could have done the same thing as effectively, no. Similarly, I don't know if Savage could've worked a two hour match. Certainly not like the kind of match he normally competed in at the least. And I watched those couple of matches, not exactly barn burners, but I suppose I'm not the audience am I?

    But these are terms that have become popularised only fairly recently with the arrival of internets and the like. These were still common insider terms in Savage's day when kayfabe was still rampant (you only have to ask David Schultz). In the main event of wrestlemania one, Muhammed Ali was so incensed by what he saw from the heels that he tried to intervene in the ring and fight them. And Ali had even worked before then too.

    And people would believe things were real because wrestlers had to work diligently in conjunction with their gimmicks to present the image that wrestling was real. And many people, regardless of what you might say, bought into it. Bought into it enough to fill out the Silverdome. Even if straddlers did know it was staged, it was the art of working the smarks that exists to this day and we've all bought into at one time.

    Contradiction much? He would've been successful because he would've drawn enough people to watch him to make it a sell-out when he performed, regardless of what he did int the ring.

    Just totally wrong. The essential premise of wrestling didn't change. Of course not. Never has. Simulate a real encounter and reap the financial benefits. But wrestling did change and evolve, whether you turn a blind-eye to it or not. The basic principles remained, the foibles had changed. Totally.

    It's not hard to work people into thinking you match is a shoot if it looks EXACTLY like a shoot. Fans bought into Savage hating Hogan because he worked them to believe it was the case, just like Daniel Bryan did recently with Cena, just like CM Punk did with Cena, just like Heyman is doing know with Roman Reigns. Were being worked but many people buy into it because good wrestlers allow you to suspend reality.

    Therefore, I disagree. If anything, it meant Savage had to work harder. Encompassing the flamboyancy and trying to harness it deftly to reality is masterful. That's what Savage did regularly. Savage got people to believe he was this larger than life character, more to the point, because he was.

    Hardly.

    The two are completely incomparible. They are at the very most on a par with each other. Working within the confines of each individual business set-up, neither could've achieved more.

    As much as he could muster anyway.
     
    #21
  22. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    Probably. He has dementia. But he was raised as a traditional southerner on a farm with 18 siblings. If he is not bothered with "your mother" jokes nobody would be.

    No he wasn't. Everything Flair did he took from someone else. His mannerisms, his gimmick, his swagger, his attire, his moveset, they way he worked matches. Everything. He put his own spin on some things. But ultimately he imitated someone else. Just like Savage.

    That's why I keep saying the pioneers were the most imitated wrestlers ever. They trained guys that would train the guys who train Flair and Savage. Modern stars had to start somewhere. And just because they where able to put a spin on something doesn't automatically make it better than the original. Pepsi Blue was not better than original Pepsi.

    The way wrestlers worked crowds has never changed. It evolved; sure. But it never changed. There's never been a method of working that wasn't tried by the pioneers. That's what made them pioneers. However some modern starts could have done it better and did; but that doesn't mean Savage was one. And he certainly wasn't better than Londos.

    I'm saying he wouldn't be. If he were then he'd be Hogan tier. He's not. Londos was popular with every single type of audience at the time, in many different countries, and fans that expected to see different things. You seem to be under the impression that everyone during that time period had the same working style and moveset. They didn't. They were as unique as wrestlers are today. Perhaps not nearly as flexible, but enough that fans did not think Londos was the same as Lewis. Not even close.

    The athletics commission. They governed wrestling up til the 80's until WWE and others labelled themselves as "entertainment" so that they could stop paying dues to the organization, and exposed the industry in the process. In the past, especially during that time period, the athletics commission imposed all sorts of crazy shit on the industry. Such as rolling pin falls. Fans hated that shit.

    They weren't allowed. There were plenty of rules imposed then that do not exist now. For example closed fists were illegal. If you used one you were DQ'ed immediately. That rule remained in place for decades to come. How many wrestlers use an open fist punch today? All of them.

    No, ALL of them. The only thing that changed was the amount of improvisation in matches. More creative freedom to mix with the tools that already existed. In the 80's pro wrestlers used weapons more, they bled more, they lit themselves on fire and dove off high shit more. The tools that already existed got mixed with those things and that's the only thing that changed.

    I never questioned how over Savage was with his audience. I said he didn't draw the money out of them that Londos did his. Which was true. And Savage had ALL these advantages. Therefore Londos was better.

    Drawing power is but one aspect. I also use longevity, accolades, legacy, consistency, charisma, and in ring skills.

    Londos had a much longer career, and spent a much longer time as a major headliner than Savage. Point Londos. He was over everywhere he traveled and his drawing power never once waned. Savage was not as popular, or treated as well, in WCW as he was in WWE. Londos was more consistent. Another point for him. Londos was more decorated. 6 title reigns that don't even last a combined 2 years do not beat 5 reigns that lasted a combined 16 years. And Savage worked in the era where stars still received long reigns. Like Hogan. Why didn't Savage ever receive a 4 year reign like Hogan? Another point for Londos. Londos left a bigger legacy. He established business in areas where business was either slow or didn't exist. Like New York. Take Londos out of history and the WWE as we know it today may not exist. Take Savage out of history and we still have Hogan and Austin, the WWE, and the shock waves are no where near as huge.

    And drawing power as something Londos did better and the only things left are ability and charisma. Both had plenty of charisma so we're left with ability. The most subjective of all the categories. I've already pointed out numerous times why Londos was just as skilled as Savage regardless of the difference in era. You seem to want to nick pick details that don't matter. Because ultimately Savage is down 6 categories to 1.

    How so? The pioneers were the most imitated of all wrestlers. Anything that we can see from today working wise can be traced back to them in some way or form. If it is a tool used to work fans today, then it was a tool used to work fans back then. Even promos. Pioneers didn't "work the mic" like modern stars do on shows today, but I can guarantee they "promoed" and spun all sorts of tales to the media to fuel story lines and make themselves look better. The only other major difference that I can see is that fans are more interactive with the shows today than they were back then. But it could be argued that fans are more interactive now than they were during Hogan's and Savage's era as well.

    I don't feel like answering the rest as I feel like I summed up everything that needs to be summed up without getting redundant.
     
    #22

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