WCW Boston, Round 3, Match 1: #4 John Cena vs. #13 Goldberg

[Miko]

hmmm I see what you're saying, but would you vote Cena over Warrior?

Nope

Over Hogan?

Nope

Over Austin?

Nope, I wouldnt vote for Goldberg over any of them either though

They're all odds against him. Using the fact that he can overcome stuff is a weak argument because then we might as well not bother havign the competition.

I disagree, obviously there are some people that Cena cant overcome, in fact three of them are listed above. I am just not convinced Goldberg is that elite.

Some odds are just too great, and Goldberg at his peak was an unstoppable force of nature. I'm pretty sure he only lost something like 5 times in WCW...all of which involved some kind of inetrference or cheating of an obvious kind...screwjob loses.

It's a fair point, he also won a few times with his opponent getting screwed in my opinion proving that he wasnt unbeatable.

Cena is a stand up guy and so won't resort to those tactics, and that's the only thing which could stop Goldberg back then. Cena has been beaten by Batista clean, and probably others, so he doesn't share this virtue.

Still consider Cena's longest title reign, he didnt get beaten cleanly either, he was Goldberg unstoppable, use that Cena. He'd match up to Goldberg and I still think he'd take this one.

 

[jmt225]

How do you know Show doesn't jump? Explain to me how exactly you know that he doesn't help Cena either. That's what wrestling is. It's fake. Of course he jumps. Duh.

You can tell when someone jumps to help a wrestler out. It's obvious. They bend their needs and jump. And it happens mostly on vertical suplex's, which the Jackhammer was a variation of. You don't jump on the FU and even if Show did, Cena still holds him on his shoulders for a long period of time, dead weight. The fact is Goldberg never did that and he didn't do it to a 500 pound version of him like Cena has.

Cena passes Goldberg in charisma.

Of course.

Goldberg passes Cena in strength.

What evidence do you have of this?

Cena passes Goldberg in speed.

Yeah.

Goldberg passes Cena defeating ridiculously crazy, famous wrestlers.

Wrestlers way past their prime and all playing cowardly heels.

Cena has held more championships.

Yep.

Goldberg has had more classic, amazing moments.

Oh, HELL NO. The ONLY classic, "amazing" moment Goldberg had was defeating Hollywood Hogan. That's fucking it, unless you want to count ending the career of Bret Hart as a classic, amazing moment.

Jmt, you must take into account: this is WCW, not WWE. This is when Goldberg was huge. Goldberg was a WCW Heavyweight Champion and a two time WCW United States Champion.

So what? Plenty of WWE wrestlers went to WCW and shined.

And Cena is a five-time World Champion (three-time WWE Champion and two-time World Heavyweight Champion, AND for one of his reigns held the belt for nearly a year, the longest reign since Bret Hart if I remember correctly, if not before that), three-time United States Champion, and a two-time World Tag Team Champion. Plus he's won the Royal Rumble and headlined five Wrestlemanias.

My opinion, they're pretty much equal in wrestling ability, with Cena having a slight speed advantage, and Goldberg having a slight power advantage. Goldberg wins because of WCW and his power.

Wrong, because Goldberg is not stronger. There's nothing that indicates that he is anywhere near being as strong as Cena. Just because he picked up The Giant once or twice does not mean he's stronger than Cena, because the fact of the matter is that Cena lifted that monster in a much harder move to hit, when that monster was over 100 pounds more than when Goldberg did it.

And being in WCW doesn't mean anything, either. Plenty of WWE guys have gone to WCW and been successful. Bret Hart for example, beat Goldberg, even after Goldberg gave him a career ending injury. And yet, you guys don't think Cena wouldn't be able to beat this clown?

Why does the crowd reaction Goldberg got in WWE matter here? We're in WCW, where he was the most popular superstar for several years.

It doesn't, but that had to do with Dha bringing up how Cena isn't exciting, but Goldberg always has been, which of course is false.

So what? Are you trying to downplay Goldbergs accomplishment of beating the number one heel in WCW when they were the biggest wrestling promotion in the world? Heel or not, Hulkamania or not, Goldberg defeated Hulk Hogan. Cleanly.

He beat a coward Hulk Hogan, in Goldberg's home town. It's really not that big of accomplishment. I guess Billy Kidman should beat Cena just because he beat Hogan then, huh?

Why not? Edge's spear has put Cena down several times. Goldberg's spear is much more devastating.

Edge's spear has never put down Cena. In fact, the only time I remember Edge defeating Cena with the spear was at New Year's Revolution, and he had to hit him THREE times with it, after Cena just got done having a brutal Elimination Chamber match.

So this is how we're playing it now? Victories only count if they're against faces?

Yes, they count, but I'm just pointing out he beat them when they were cowards and way past their prime. Whereas Cena is currently defeating future legends in their prime.

More convincingly? How so? Goldberg dispatched of the Giant in what, five minutes or so?

Watch Wrestlemania 20. Cena slaughters Big Show, at a time when Show was much harder to defeat than he was in WCW.

Goldberg had a clean win over Sting sometime late 1999.

The match I remember most, Sting had Goldberg beat in the Scorpion Death Lock and Hogan interfered and cost Sting the match.

If memory serves me correctly, Goldberg defeated DDP cleanly on October 25, 1998, Halloween Havoc. He defeated a VERY popular face cleanly in DDP, in what I'd consider one of the best matches in WCW history.

DDP was heel at that time, I'm pretty sure of it. But if I'm wrong, I apologize. And yes... that was a very good match. One of the only 3 or 4 good matches Goldberg has ever had.

All the time? Sid was pretty dominant in late WCW, especially 1999. Ya know, having wins over the likes of Hogan, Sting and Nash.

Yeah, and getting his ass handed to him by Benoit. And Cena beat Benoit pretty decisively on Raw.

Triple H was WELL past his prime when Cena beat him. So it doesn't count.

Not in kayfabe terms. In work-rate terms? Absolutely, but at Wrestlemania 22 and any time these past ten fucking years, HHH has been as dominant force as anyone in WWE.

Who cares if they were playing heels? The fact is, Goldberg defeated them. It's not like he could beat them all as faces, cuz, ya know, he was a face for the majority of his career.

My point isn't that they were playing heels; it's that they were cowards. Goldberg beat a bunch of over the hill cowards. It doesn't impress me at all.

"It doesn't count" because somebody was playing a heel is stupid.

There I was talking about his matches against The Rock and Brock Lesnar, and those wins do not count in my estimation. If Brock stays in WWE, he beats Goldberg. And The Rock most likely doesn't put Goldberg over if he's not leaving the company that very night.

I guess we should just not recognize all the heel's John Cena has defeated.

Cena's beaten heels and faces all throughout this time. And most of the heels today are portrayed as bad ass motherfuckers, not cowards.

Beating Hogan and The Rock puts Goldberg way over Cena.

No it doesn't, because The Rock match doesn't count, and he beat Hollywood Hogan, not Hulk Hogan. You mean to tell me Cena wouldn't beat Hollywood Hogan?

You think Cena would have been booked to beat 20023 Rock or 1998 Hogan?

Yes, if they were still around today.

Cena's biggest wins are over probably HHH and HBK, which, whilst impressive, are both guys who are way past their primes.

HHH and HBK aren't booked like they're past their primes though. They hardly ever lose clean, but both lost clean to Cena.

Goldberg dominated the most popular wrestling promotion in the world, at a time when wrestling was HOT.

Yeah, and what happened to that company? WWE is doing quite well with Cena as their guy, but WCW wasn't able to do jack shit with Goldberg as their guy and you know why? It was hard to keep making him look legit with only a bunch of noobs nobody gave a damn about and a bunch of over the hill cowards as his only competition. And that's all he beat during his two years on top.

Cena is dominating wrestling when it's strugglign to draw the attention it did when GOLDBERG and Austin were the top faces of the big two. Case closed.

Case closed my ass. WWE makes as much money now as they ever have. The ratings and pay-per-view buys don't make it seem as such, but internationally.... they're WAY hotter now then they were back then. Plus, they're also a public company now and that puts uncountable amounts of $$$ in the WWE's pocket.

And Goldberg had nothing to do with WCW's success. WCW got hot because of the nWo and when Goldberg started getting his push, the WWF went ahead of them in the ratings and pay-per-view buys.

 

[klunderbunker]

Hmm...I think I have to go with Goldberg here. Goldberg in WCW lost I believe 5 times? That's saying quite a bit indeed. Cena would give him an absolute war and most certainly could pull this off, but I think I have to go with DA MAN. The power Cena has is negated here, Goldberg simply won't tap to the STF, and I don't think the FU would be enough to pin him. Either way, this should be a clash of the titans. Not a long match, but an epic one.

 

[BooCocky]

The who beat who argument is ridiculous in this situation. When Goldberg was in his prime he had great people to work with such as Sting, Hogan, Luger and several others. Yes, he did beat them and that is truly the point. But I come to you with this, you can't hold it against Cena for not beating Hogan, Sting, Luger, Nash, and many more. Ultimately, Cena wrestled in a different era, and he's never had the "stars" to work with. But Cena has beaten the best during his tenure in the WWE.

This whole thing boils down to size, strength, speed, and even stamina. If I can recall, Goldberg never wrestled a lengthy match. Cena on the other hand has. The longer this match goes, the more it favors Cena. Cena has wrestled in an hour long match, 20 minute matches and probably matches that have gone close to a half an hour.

Cena has always been pushed as the underdog, or the person who is against all odds. Cena has taken out streaks, such as Umaga or Khali. Cena has beaten the best in his era, such as HHH, Edge, and even HBK. Cena has never been manhandled, and that was basically Goldberg's specialty. This match can go either way, but I will be voting for John. I think when it is all said and done, he will have a bigger legacy where he has beaten the biggest stars of his Era. Goldberg's prime lasted roughly four years, and you can say Cena's prime is going on roughly five years. I say Cena wins this match with an AA after a nice back and forth match.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Get real people, Goldberg is shit. He couldn't last more than 20 minutes with John Cena. He likely couldn't last more than 15.

Goldberg's entire "streak" came by way of jobbers, no-names, cruiserweights and mid-card slackers. Outside of maybe (maybe) a hand-full of top names, like Hulk Hogan & the Big Show, Goldberg's weakest moments came against the guys who were in his "league".

John Cena has made a living off being the "underdog" and coming out shining like a diamond. Goldberg's specialty was ending the matches he had as quick as possible. If he couldn't hit that Spear and Jackhammer within a 10 minute mark or less, he got winded and became less than impressive.

Like Brian said, Cena's lasted upwards of hours in several matches, if not over. He's also withstood a great deal of punishment from bigger and better than Bill Goldberg.

Cena is one of the best all-around Superstars in the business, he IS the Hulk Hogan of this Generation, and Goldberg could only barely defeat Hogan.. on his downward slop to retirement. (one of)

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Has Cena ever been dominant? Even during a year long title reign he average a clean TV loss every month. He's easily defeated by wrestlers who've proven to be just as good, if not better than him. It just appears that for some reason they always choke when it comes to the title matches.

 

[MattMoses]

And being in WCW doesn't mean anything, either. Plenty of WWE guys have gone to WCW and been successful. Bret Hart for example, beat Goldberg, even after Goldberg gave him a career ending injury.

Congratulations Bret! Impressive that he could NEVER beat Goldberg on his own, needing the help of a screwjob where Goldberg wasn't even locked into a submission to tap, the interference of three men with baseball bats, and a metal breastplate. Other losses came at the hands of a stun gun and outside interference.

In Goldberg's back yard, it seems the ONLY way to defeat him was by cheating. If someone the stature of Hogan, the top heel in WCW at the time can't beat Goldberg, WITH interference, who's to say Cena can defeat him?

John Cena might be best off giving his homie B2 a call.

He beat a coward Hulk Hogan, in Goldberg's home town. It's really not that big of accomplishment.

Well then I guess Cena beating Edge in his hometown isn't much of an accomplishment then? After all, Edge was a coward, wasn't he? Christ, he even had his woman to interfere on his behalf.

Edge's spear has never put down Cena. In fact, the only time I remember Edge defeating Cena with the spear was at New Year's Revolution, and he had to hit him THREE times with it, after Cena just got done having a brutal Elimination Chamber match.

All this shows to me is how weak Edge's spear is in comparison to Goldberg's.

Yes, they count, but I'm just pointing out he beat them when they were cowards and way past their prime. Whereas Cena is currently defeating future legends in their prime.

I don't know why you seem so intent on making a point of Goldberg beating heel's when they were cowards. Two of the arguable best heels today in Orton and Edge can be described as cowards. But it doesn't matter, because they're in their "prime" right

Watch Wrestlemania 20. Cena slaughters Big Show, at a time when Show was much harder to defeat than he was in WCW.

Why? Because he was fatter, slower, less athletic and more painful to watch? If you ask me, it's more impressive Goldberg beating the Giant in WCW when he was a MUCH better wrestler physcially than he was in 2004.

The match I remember most, Sting had Goldberg beat in the Scorpion Death Lock and Hogan interfered and cost Sting the match.

This is the match everyone seems to remember, and rightly so. It was great. But I assure you, Goldberg wound up with a clean victory over Sting in the latter part of 1999.

DDP was heel at that time, I'm pretty sure of it. But if I'm wrong, I apologize. And yes... that was a very good match. One of the only 3 or 4 good matches Goldberg has ever had.

DDP was a face. He'd just won the three team WarGames match to earn his shot at the title. He was undoubtedly the #2 face in the company at that time.

There I was talking about his matches against The Rock and Brock Lesnar, and those wins do not count in my estimation.

So now we're picking and choosing what matches Goldberg has won, despite the fact he actually his clean pinfalls over both men? Bill Goldberg has victories over both Brock Lesnar (something John Cena was never able to accomplish) and the Rock, simple as.

And most of the heels today are portrayed as bad ass motherfuckers, not cowards.

Yeah, that Orton, always hiding behind Legacy, or that damn Jericho attacking all these legends from behind

Some of the greatest heels in the history of wrestling can be describled as cowards. I honestly don't see the issue with it.

No it doesn't, because The Rock match doesn't count

Why not? The Rock had just come off of beating Steve Austin at WrestleMania. He seemed like a pretty credible opponent if you ask me.

But just for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PLv6WXV1bs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU-Ey5fjwqM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qelK9bqK0TM

Goldberg beating the Rock. It happened.

 

[DhA]

Yeah, this is suppsoed to be a kayfabe tournament, so I don't see how The Rock and Lesnar leavign are relevant at all? Someone explain this to me? Cena always beats cowardly heels like Orton, Edge and JBL, who, whilst good, are nowhere nears as good as HOLLYWOOD HOGAN.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I want to vote for John Cena. I have no idea why. I don't particularly dislike Goldberg. Maybe it's just because I was a WWF loyalist back in the day and showing me a picture of Goldberg was like showing a picture of Hitler to a war veteran. Maybe it's the small amount of respect I have for Cena, which I usually don't give to people who are presented to me as a conglomeration of pixels on a screen.

However, I can't think of one convincing argument for Cena to go over Goldberg. Well, I can, but for every one I think of I can think of three more for Goldberg.

I think Cena's in with a definite chance here. The man feeds off being an underdog, as cheap an argument as that is.

Goldberg, however, is as unstoppable as they come. He's Undertaker, Lesnar, Hogan or Warrior unstoppable. Until he runs into one of his fellow immovable objects, I don't think anyone will convincingly take him down.

I'll gladly be persuaded over to Cena's side though, should I find the right argument.

Edit: And for the record, Lesnar beat Goldberg. Austin clearly gave a slow count after Lesnar F-5'd him.

 

[Big Sexy]

Wrestlers way past their prime and all playing cowardly heels.

The cowardly heel argument is complete bullshit. 90% of heels are cowardly because they are fucking heels. Most of them are supposed to be cowardly and cheat to win. That's why people hate them. Yes Cena has defeated a few monster heels that weren't cowardly ie. Big Show, Umaga, Khali, but so has Goldberg. Goldberg has beaten guys like The Giant, Sid Vicious, Kevin Nash, Scott Steiner.

I have yet to see anyone give me a good reason as to why Cena would beat Goldberg in a straight up one on one wrestling match. The reason why no one can come up with anything good is because no one has ever done it. If Cena was a heel that would have the help of outside interference or if this was a gimmick match then I could see him winning, but this isn't.

 

[shingi]

This is what Cena is all about winning the important matches against all the odds. Goldberg may have been unstopabble and may have beaten the best of the best with raw power,but... HE BORES ME TO DEATH. For most of the match Goldberg will dominate Cena , Then suddenly he wins with a superhuman comeback hitting the AA and making Goldberg tap out to the stf.

 

[The Todd]

Let's face it, Goldberg won't tap, Cena won't be pinned from the spear. It is all about who hits the AA/Jackhammer first.

Forgetting things like charisma, marketability, drawing power (which isn't essential, I know some people like voting that way) but in strictly kayfabe terms you have an unstoppable force against an immovable object; Goldberg powers through people, Cena cannot be disposed of easily. However, Cena in his long title reigns, his prime, regularly beat people billed as unstoppable.

As already mentioned, Cena ended Umaga's unbeaten streak and he was the first person to pin Khali. (The point they have lots of defeats since is 100% irrelevant. Cena beat them in their prime). He also never lost his title in that run, he was injured from a post match attack. Yes he lost TV matches, but he never lost when it mattered, and this match matters.

It has already been brilliantly argued that it being in WCW won't affect Cena, he has faced worse arenas and only been beaten via interference. WHo would interfere to help Goldberg? No one.

Cena comes out of this war with bumos and bruises, but with his arm raised in victory.

 

[DhA]

Cena, he has faced worse arenas and only been beaten via interference. WHo would interfere to help Goldberg? No one.

Cena comes out of this war with bumos and bruises, but with his arm raised in victory.

Goldberg's VERY FEW career losses came by and large through inetrference or blatant cheating. So if you're gonna use that argument, use it for Goldberg. Cena has been beaten plenty times clean.

 

[jmt225]

Congratulations Bret! Impressive that he could NEVER beat Goldberg on his own, needing the help of a screwjob where Goldberg wasn't even locked into a submission to tap, the interference of three men with baseball bats, and a metal breastplate.

Doesn't really matter. The point is a WWE guy went into WCW and had success, and defeated Goldberg even after the worthless motherfucker ended his career because he doesn't know how to work to save his life. Even Bret said that when he was in the ring with Goldberg, he made Vader seem like Shawn Michaels. That's how stiff the guy was. Goldberg was shit dude.

Other losses came at the hands of a stun gun and outside interference.

Again, it doesn't really matter. Cena's lost in fucked up ways before as well, and if Goldberg was with WWE's roster today in his prime, he would've lost to the same guys Cena has lost to. And you know that's the truth.

In Goldberg's back yard, it seems the ONLY way to defeat him was by cheating. If someone the stature of Hogan, the top heel in WCW at the time can't beat Goldberg, WITH interference, who's to say Cena can defeat him?

I say it because Cena always rises against the odds first of all, and second of all, because Goldberg never faced an animal like Cena when he was in WCW.

Well then guess Cena beating Edge in his hometown isn't much of an accomplishment then? After all, Edge was a coward, wasn't he? Christ, he even had his woman to interfere on his behalf.

Edge didn't play a coward the likes of Hollywood Hogan. Hogan would've never had a TLC match against Cena in the first place. And plus, Edge is not an over the hill piece of trash. He's in his prime and one of the best wrestlers in the World today. And he's also someone with more title wins/reigns than Hogan.

All this shows to me is how weak Edge's spear is in comparison to Goldberg's.

Lol... of course it's weaker, but you're the one who brought up Edge's spear, not me. The fact is that a pussy spear and jackhammer will not put Cena away.

I don't know why you seem so intent on making a point of Goldberg beating heel's when they were cowards. Two of the arguable best heels today in Orton and Edge can be described as cowards. But it doesn't matter, because they're in their "prime" right

How are Orton and Edge anywhere near being as big of cowards as guys like Hollywood Hogan? Orton and Edge fight their battles. Look at Raw from two weeks ago. MVP came out and talked shit, and Orton wanted a match against him then and there. Hollywood Hogan would've never done that because he was a fucking coward.

All heels today are "cool" and won't back down. I'm not saying that it's right business wise, but kayfabe terms, that makes them stronger than the a lot of the heels in the past, including Hollywood Hogan.

Why? Because he was fatter, slower, less athletic and more painful to watch? If you ask me, it's more impressive Goldberg beating the Giant in WCW when he was a MUCH better wrestler physcially than he was in 2004.

Well, I disagree. Most of The Giant's matches were shit in WCW. In fact, I remember only two matches he had in WCW that I thought were good, and they were both against Sting. Whereas, since 2002, I've felt Big Show has been one of the most entertaining, consistent wrestlers in WWE. He's had WAY more good matches in WWE since that time than he ever had in WCW.

This is the match everyone seems to remember, and rightly so. It was great. But I assure you, Goldberg wound up with a clean victory over Sting in the latter part of 1999.

Well hey, if you're right, so be it. But the point is that Sting had Goldberg beat once upon a of time, and it was Goldberg who was the one who needed help to win. Cena’s never needed help to win a match since he turned face.

DDP was a face. He'd just won the three team WarGames match to earn his shot at the title. He was undoubtedly the #2 face in the company at that time.

Okay, so you're right. Just looked at the match on Youtube and you are correct. But answer me this.. John Cena wouldn't be able to defeat DDP? Face or heel?

So now we're picking and choosing what matches Goldberg has won, despite the fact he actually his clean pinfalls over both men? Bill Goldberg has victories over both Brock Lesnar (something John Cena was never able to accomplish) and the Rock, simple as.

I guarantee you even fans who still buy into kayfabe don't believe in those matches, because it's obvious the only reason he won them was because those wrestlers were leaving.

And besides, a retired Steve Austin was made to look stronger than Goldberg in that match against Lesnar, so that's another thing that cancels it out.

Yeah, that Orton, always hiding behind Legacy, or that damn Jericho attacking all these legends from behind

The heels today are manipulating, but when the time comes, they step up to the plate. They don't run from their problems like the heels of yesteryear did.

Some of the greatest heels in the history of wrestling can be describled as cowards. I honestly don't see the issue with it.

I agree with you, but winning a match against a coward is nothing to brag about. That's my point.

Why not? The Rock had just come off of beating Steve Austin at WrestleMania. He seemed like a pretty credible opponent if you ask me.

The Rock beat a Steve Austin who was leaving the company as an on-air talent, lol.

Look, the whole point is that Cena's career is TEN TIMES more impressive than Goldberg's. His match resume is TONS better, and he has beaten just as many credible opponents as Goldberg has. And if you want to say he hasn't, then you still dodged my question earlier... you mean to tell me John Cena couldn't defeat Hollywood Hogan? Or Raven? Or DDP? Or Scott Hall? Or Lex Luger?

 

[MattMoses]

Doesn't really matter. The point is a WWE guy went into WCW and had success, and defeated Goldberg even after the worthless motherfucker ended his career because he doesn't know how to work to save his life.

You say it doesn't impress you that Goldberg beat a bunch of "over the hill cowards", yet you bring up the fact that Bret Hart has to resort to cowardice tactics to defeat Goldberg?

John Cena doesn't resort to cheap shots, low blows, or any general heel tactics in his matches. If NOBODY could defeat Goldberg unless they used some form of screwjob or heel tactics, how can John Cena beat him clean? Hulk Hogan may have been "over the hill" or whatever, but even in 1998, he was a hell of a bigger name than John Cena, and lost (albeit performed) a lot less than Cena.

Again, it doesn't really matter. Cena's lost in fucked up ways before as well

But the fact is, John Cena has been defeated plenty of times cleanly. Goldberg was NEVER defeated cleanly.

and if Goldberg was with WWE's roster today in his prime, he would've lost to the same guys Cena has lost to. And you know that's the truth.

Ifs and buts don't matter. He might have, he might not have. But this can't be used against him.

I say it because Cena always rises against the odds

How many times did Goldberg rise against the odds? Being put into Lumberjack matches, handicap matches, battle royals as a sole team member and coming out as the victor. Goldberg overcame just as many odds as Cena has.

Edge didn't play a coward the likes of Hollywood Hogan.

But he was still a coward. How often did he use Lita as a shield? Or Zack and Ryder? It's no different to Hogan getting help from his stable.

And it's not like Hogan tried to escape from that match; he issued a challenge, and stayed true to his word. Goldberg beat Hall, so he got Hogan. Hogan had NO problem coming out on his own to face Goldberg, until the very end when his lackeys tried to interfere. It's nothing different to Edge's old stooges coming out to his aid.

And plus, Edge is not an over the hill piece of trash. He's in his prime and one of the best wrestlers in the World today.

The fact is, the likes of Hogan, Sting, Flair, Luger etc. were all accomplished, recognized stars when Goldberg beat them. Sure, they couldn't perform like they could ten years prior (save for maybe Sting), but Goldberg still has legit wins over them. Trying to diminish those victories because of primes isn't going to change the fact he still beat them.

The fact is that a pussy spear and jackhammer will not put Cena away.

Well, this would be another first. NOBODY ever kicked out of a spear and jackhammer in WCW, and I don't think anybody did in WWE either. A handful of people have kicked out of and escaped John Cena's finising manuevers.

Simply stating "will not put Cena away" isn't a very convincing argument.

How are Orton and Edge anywhere near being as big of cowards as guys like Hollywood Hogan? Orton and Edge fight their battles. Look at Raw from two weeks ago. MVP came out and talked shit, and Orton wanted a match against him then and there. Hollywood Hogan would've never done that because he was a fucking coward.

Hogan gives Goldberg a challenge: defeat Scott Hall, and you have me in a one on one. Goldberg beats Scott Hall. Hogan stays true to his promise, makes his way to the ring, and faces Goldberg one on one, standing toe to toe. It isn't until the last minute that a few nWo members arrive to help Hogan out.

Hogan had plenty of one on one matches. Yeah, the nWo interfered at some point. Need a remind you of all the times Legacy and Zack & Ryder interfered on behalf of Orton/Edge?

Well hey, if you're right, so be it. But the point is that Sting had Goldberg beat once upon a of time, and it was Goldberg who was the one who needed help to win. Cena’s never needed help to win a match since he turned face.

Oh come on. Goldberg didn't ask for help and he didn't want it. Hell, he was unaware that Hogan even hit Sting.

Okay, so you're right. Just looked at the match on Youtube and you are correct. But answer me this.. John Cena wouldn't be able to defeat DDP? Face or heel?

I'm sure he could beat him. But I'm sure DDP could have beaten Cena too in WCW. It entirely depends on the circumstance.

The heels today are manipulating, but when the time comes, they step up to the plate. They don't run from their problems like the heels of yesteryear did.

Honestly, this is getting ridiculous. Lots of heels from WCW whom Goldberg beat stood toe to toe with him.

you mean to tell me John Cena couldn't defeat Hollywood Hogan? Or Raven? Or DDP? Or Scott Hall? Or Lex Luger?

It's a possibility. But what do all these have in common? That's right. They could never beat Goldberg.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Er, yea, Goldberg was ridiculous So was Czena, be he still lost. that, and im not even sure we have actually SEEN Cena's prime. I side with Sam, in that I dont think Goldberg will be beaten by anoyone except one of those other mythical larger than life characters.

 

[Slyfox696]

I pick Cena to win, simply because I think he's better (although, I think Goldberg was good too), and unlike Goldberg Cena has proven that he's not a one hit wonder, which Goldberg can't really say. Goldberg had his incredible run in WCW...and then was never able to capture that kind of heat again. Cena, for this part, is now in his fourth year of being the biggest draw in the biggest wrestling company in the world. He's a many time World Champion, has had good or great matches with all types of people, and is one of the hardest working men in the business.

However, there are a couple things I wish to take issue with:

1) Since when did the WZ Tournament become a kayfabe tournament? I must have missed that. I always thought it was a "use whatever criteria you want to justify your pick" tournament. If you think one is better than another, pick them. If you think they are both equal in quality, then use kayfabe. Since when did this turn into a strictly kayfabe tournament?

2) I saw a couple people say that Goldberg would win because this is in his backyard. Sorry people, but those of you who said that know nothing about wrestling. Bill Goldberg is from California. He wrestled primarily in the Southern States of the US. This is, in no way shape or form, Goldberg's backyard.

However, it IS John Cena's backyard. John Cena is from West Newbury, Mass, which is only 40 miles from Boston. This is almost LITERALLY in John Cena's backyard. So, if you are wanting to use the location factor to determine a winner, then you need to pick John Cena, not Bill Goldberg.

Oh, and just because I know someone is going to say it, the WCW that Bill Goldberg worked in was not the same WCW that this match is taking place in, and thus, there's no more "comfort level" for Goldberg than there is for Cena.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I think, essentially, you can use whatever criteria you want to make your pick. The poll's open to everyone, so you could vote for Cena based on the belief that he could make a better cheese sandwich if you want.

Edit: Goldberg seems like a guy that would make good cheese sandwiches though, so don't make that claim unless you're prepared to be shot down.

As for why people are using kayfabe to determine this, I think it's just become popularly accepted that that's what you do. Nobody's stopping you from using other criteria, as you've kindly demonstrated.

I'm awful tempted to vote Cena now. We'll see how this goes.

 

[tbanger]

I think Cena would take this one. Goldberg's big thing was the streak, Cena's seems to be ending streaks. And there has been times in his career where you could bank on him to win the big one. And that's what this is, a big one.
Goldberg defeated lots of jobbers on his streak, and was very rarely beaten cleanly, but Cena always seems to pull it out when it matters. Yeah, he loses non-title matches, but when it's all on the line he finds a way to get the win. Cena

 

[jrcongine]

wow really surprised cena is getting a lot of support. I voted goldberg. how bout this idea. Goldberg the pinnacle star of a company at the height of its success, the height of wrestling arguably, cena the star of a company in down period. Goldberg in his wcw prime is almost unstoppable.

 

[Blade]

Cena made his whole career out of beating seemingly unstoppable guys. Who's more unstoppable than Goldberg?

All Goldberg do until be became world champion was beat jobbers. That's all John Cena did too though, in fairness.
Goldberg beat a way past his prime Hogan to win his title, and lost the title to a slightly less past his prime Nash.

Cena beat JBL to win his title, which ok isn't much. But he's beaten Edge to win 3 titles at times when Edge was in his prime and had beaten some of the very best including Undertaker. Cena also beat and incredibly in-form Chris Jericho.

While they seem to match each other in most abilities, Cena simply has a more impressive hitlist.

 

[TwistofRKO]

I like John Cena, but he stands no chance here. Goldberg never fell cleanly. He was an unstoppable force. John Cena has won numerous titles, but they have always been mirrored by the other show's title. Goldberg was the champion. Goldberg brought an intensity rivaled by no other. Nobody looked better with the belt, nobody had a more intense entrance, nobody put as much overall fear into your heart as Goldberg did. The reason his matches didn't last long? He dominated everyone and there was no reason for it to go longer. Should he play ring-around-the-rosies for 5 minutes to lengthen the match? He did work and that was it. Goldberg started off with 173 straight wins, and Cena lost his first match. Goldberg claimed dominance over everyone when he debuted, and left little doubt that he wouldn't have pinned even Kurt Angle's shoulders to the mat during his fury.

Goldberg jackhammered Giant/Big Show, pause and all. Cena FU'd Attitude Adjusted the Big Show, but an old, out of shape, way past his prime Big Show. That's the difference, Cena is winning against lower overall competition, while Goldberg took on these guys in their primes. The Rock was around 30, HHH was in his prime, Big Show was in his 20s.. Cena has beaten old men most of his career when they've been past their primes. Dominating 2005-2007 HHH meant nothing near as much as it did beating 2002-2003 HHH. Cena has never fought a star with as big of a persona as the Rock, yet alone beating him.

Last of all, Goldberg beat Brock Lesnar at Wrestlemania. Sure the match wasn't great at all, but lost in the scheme of things was the most important thing of them all, Goldberg claimed dominance everywhere he's been.

 

[MattMoses]

I pick Cena to win, simply because I think he's better (although, I think Goldberg was good too), and unlike Goldberg Cena has proven that he's not a one hit wonder

I've never understood why people consider Goldberg a "one hit wonder". I mean, during his entire WCW run, he was one of the most popular guys on the roster. Even when he turned heel, the fans didn't like it, and it didn't take long until he was once again a face. When he took time off from WCW in early 2001 for shoulder surgery, every single week we'd hear Goldberg chants. I'd say he had a very solid run throughout WCW, beating all the top stars in Hogan, Sting, Flair, Vicious, DDP etc.

The he spent the later part of 2002 dominating all of his opponents in AJPW, even having a successful little run as a tag-team with the Great Muta. This led on to him signing with the WWE, where in his first match, he pretty much annihilated one of the biggest stars the business has ever seen in the Rock. People better spare me the "BUT ROCKY WAS LEAVEN" bullshit. I don't care. Within five months, he was the world heavyweight champion, overcoming Triple H and the rest of Evolution. He also beat the likes of Chris Jericho, Batista, Randy Orton and Brock Lesnar.

So could somebody PLEASE walk me through how Goldberg was a "one hit wonder"? If being undefeated your entire career in singles competition without the aid of outside interference, winning world championships in the top two American wrestling promotions and beating the biggest stars in the business in two separate companies equates to being a one hit wonder, then yes he was. But to me, that sounds like an amazing career for the length that it was.

Oh, and just because I know someone is going to say it, the WCW that Bill Goldberg worked in was not the same WCW that this match is taking place in, and thus, there's no more "comfort level" for Goldberg than there is for Cena.

So what WCW is this match taking place in? Because as far as I know, it's the same ring, entrance ramp, ropes etc. that was used in the WCW where Goldberg tore a hole through.

Goldberg defeated lots of jobbers on his streak

It makes me laugh when people bring this up. Yeah, Goldberg beat jobbers, but for what, five or six months? By the time his first year in the company had come around, he'd beaten Hogan, Hennig, Hall, The Giant, DDP and Luger. Once April/May had rolled around, he spent the rest of his tenure in WCW wrestling upper-midcarders/main-eventers.

and was very rarely beaten cleanly

Goldberg was NEVER beaten cleanly.

but Cena always seems to pull it out when it matters.

And Goldberg didn't? Who the hell thought he was going to win both nWo Hollywood and the Wolfpac in a battle royal? I sure as hell didn't. Or the times he was facing an entourage of opponents in gauntlet matches? Or when the ring was surrounded by nWo members during lumberjack matches?

While they seem to match each other in most abilities, Cena simply has a more impressive hitlist.

Hogan, Ric Flair, Sting, Lex Luger, The Giant, DDP, Kevin Nash, Sid Vicious, Jeff Jarrett, The Rock, Triple H, Randy Orton, Batista, Chris Jericho, Brock Lesnar.

Hmm.

 

[Blade]

Goldberg jackhammered Giant/Big Show, pause and all. Cena FU'd Attitude Adjusted the Big Show, but an old, out of shape, way past his prime Big Show.

Well if anything, that merely shows the Cena is stronger. Goldberg jackhammered an in shape Big Show. Cena Fu'd him when he was out of shape and heavier. And he did it to both Show and Edge at the same time.

People are overestimating how much power it takes to do the jackhammer. There's some strength in lifting the person up, but once the person is up, it's all about balance and finding the centre of gravity so they stay up. For the FU, Cena lists them up onto his shoulders and holds him there. And then he throws them off his shoulders. He doesn't just drop them like is needed for the Jackhammer, he grabs their legs and throws them off his body, making the victim do a 360 degree flip in the process.

This should show Cena is as strong as, if not stronger than Goldberg. And the power game is all Goldberg has going for him.

 

[The Todd]

Goldberg started off with 173 straight wins, and Cena lost his first match.

And how many of them 173 opponents were in the same league as Kurt Angle? He took one of the top men to the limit on his debut, four or so years away from his prime. Goldberg had jobber after jobber for a while.

Goldberg jackhammered Giant/Big Show, pause and all. Cena FU'd Attitude Adjusted the Big Show, but an old, out of shape, way past his prime Big Show. That's the difference, Cena is winning against lower overall competition, while Goldberg took on these guys in their primes.

I would class Big Show's prime at a time he got the most exposure, which is when he was in the main feuds of WrestleMania two years running, that would be the last two years, one of which was when Cena AA'd him. Isn't picking someone who is out of shape more impressive than someone in shape anyway?

The Rock was around 30, HHH was in his prime, Big Show was in his 20s.. Cena has beaten old men most of his career when they've been past their primes. Dominating 2005-2007 HHH meant nothing near as much as it did beating 2002-2003 HHH.

HHH has been in exactly the same position 2005-2007 as he was in 2002-2003. When is he not in one of the headlining feuds? A win over HHH from anytime between 1999 and 2009 means the same. He is the exact same wrestler. The Rock was past his prime when he lost to Goldberg. It was his last ever singles match after all. Yes he had just beaten Austin and Hogan, but both of them were on their way out too.

Cena has never fought a star with as big of a persona as the Rock, yet alone beating him

HBK WrestleMania 23? HHH WrestleManis 22? I know plenty of people who would put them in the same league as The Rock.

Last of all, Goldberg beat Brock Lesnar at Wrestlemania. Sure the match wasn't great at all, but lost in the scheme of things was the most important thing of them all, Goldberg claimed dominance everywhere he's been.

Another victory against someone on the way out in a match many call the biggest disappointment at WrestleMania? Good for Goldberg.

Goldberg's best title run, which I count as his prime, ended by him being screwed out of the title. Cena's ended with him being injured. Cena never lost his title, they couldn't even screw him out of it.