Was Bret Hart Selfish?

Discussion in 'Old School Wrestling' started by SSJPhenom, Aug 31, 2015.

  1. agentmichaelscarn

    agentmichaelscarn Old School

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    Actually the more I think about it, the more I think it is laughable that Bret even agreed to the situation. Looking back on it, you're right, the powerbomb wouldn't have made him look any worse because he already looked like shit to begin with. The story told in that match by them and the announcers was that Diesel kicked Bret's ass and would've won if not for Taker. So I guess Bret was already buried anyway so the powerbomb wouldn't have changed things. Why Bret agreed to the finish is beyond me. He should've demanded that either he went over cleanly that match or that Taker would interfere after Bret was in control. Why he allowed himself as champion to look like crap for two PPVs in a row before one of the biggest matches in Mania history is beyond me.
     
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  2. THTRobtaylor

    THTRobtaylor Once & Future Wrestlezone Columnist

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    The biggest part is that Nash was "up in the air" on his contract to begin with, that's what Kev doesn't mention... Maybe if Bret knew he was locked in and sticking around it might have been different.

    From his perspective, with Nash "umming and ahhing", Razor defo going and Shawn in line for the push - it could have been a power play from Nash and Shawn... sure Bret could be a little "paranoid" but there was a real chance Nash was saying to Vince... "If I say, I am the top guy, me Shawn & Taker...then Bret..."

    Taker was at the beginning of his major push as a main eventer - until this point he was "monster of the quarter/month" and only the injury from Mabel made them rethink... Nash was losing to him at Mania stay or go, so from his perspective this was his BIG moment... and Bret was screwing with it, so his comments there make a lot of sense too.

    The person who was a dick was Vince, he knew he was pitting guys against each other back then and enjoyed it... he should have told Kevin, "If you're going, go... but you do what is required on the way out" and told Taker, Bret and Shawn "I run the show...none of you do..."
     
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  3. LBGetBack

    LBGetBack Championship Contender

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    The guy who is advocating devaluing the wrestlemania MAIN EVENT to build up an undercard match is calling things moronic. HILARIOUS. Hey, why didn't Hogan or Warrior eat a pin from Mr. Perfect or the Genius at Saturday Night's Main Event in 1990 before Mania 6? It would've put Mr. Perfect over and built up his match with Brutus the Barber Beefcake! SMH. So moronic.

    LOL at your internet fan rant! LOLOLOLOL. Nah. The fans liked Bret. Spend 9.99 and order WWE Network and watch an old match(since you're popping off about things you're too young to have experienced) and listen to the crowd. Everyone liked him in the early-mid 90's. "One of the worst draws".....you know who was worse? Nash. That's who. FACTS. Regardless, the entire business was down then and that had nothing to do with Bret Hart. You should learn more about wrestling history before getting all fired up to make bad points.

    Bret-HBK is a well-regarded, historic match. Deal with it. We're not talking about if you personally like it. This is about it's place in history, which is already set in stone. It was a huge match. Taker-Nash......LMAO. Nobody ever really cared much......just an undercard match. Go dissect that match with your fury. You don't devalue the main event of wrestlemania in order to build an undercard match. Moronic post. They booked Bret poorly enough as it is in late '95-early '96.....had him looking like an old man in his training vignettes, had Diesel whup him and get screwed by Taker, commentators taking shots at him talking about he got lucky. SMH. And you're crying because you wanted him to look even WORSE? To build up an undercard match featuring a guy who was on his way out of the company? WOW.
     
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  4. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    Looks like I'm going to have to do this.

    Now:lmao: You're being an idiot. Neither Mr. Perfect nor Brutus the Barber Beefcake were former champions or even title contenders. There's not even a comparison there.

    My internet fan rant is completely correct because that's exactly what you're doing. Lol at me being to young to know what I'm talking about. I've been watching wrestling my whole life but we won't get into that. I know you had to come up with some other way to take a shot at me because you couldn't do it with this topic, that's OK. Yep you're right, the fans did like Bret, and HBK, and Nash, and 'Taker. I watched back then and even I liked Bret, however, do you know what I did when Hall and Nash went to WCW? I started watching them. Just like most other fans at that time. So if Nash was such a bad draw, why'd they keep the title on him so long and why did so many fans follow him to WCW? Also, if Bret was so liked, how in the hell did a heel Stone Cold Steve Austin get over as a face on a face Bret Hart? I know plenty about wrestling history and my points weren't bad just because you don't agree with them. My points were actually fairly accurate.

    Who is Hart/HBK at WM 12 well regarded by? Bret fans and the WWE? Well of course it'll be well regarded by them, however, it just wasn't an exciting or good match. Rock/HHH had a much better Iron Man Match. So did Angle/Lesnar and I could go on and on. Hell, HBK/Angle had a far better Iron Man Match. I remember watching WM 12 and I was bored to death my the Iron Man Match. By the end of that thing, I didn't care who won. That wasn't the case with the others.

    Let me tell you who Bret is. Bret is the type of guy that thinks that he didn't do anything to deserve what happened in Montreal. He's the type of person that instead of evolving his character and moving on into the Attitude Era, he would sit backstage and whine and cry about the product and how it should be revolved around him. A lot of people credit Bret Hart with putting Austin over, however, and Austin has said this on his podcast, him being put over and becoming as popular as he did was not Bret's intention. Bret was supposed to go about beating Austin and Austin was just supposed to move on as a heel. Thank god the fans actually have a brain though.
     
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  5. Emmet

    Emmet Juventino 4 LiFe

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    Was Bret selfish? To a degree, but christ tell me a main eventer wrestler who isn't?

    Bret was highly generous also, Sean Waltman talks about the match the two had on RAW in 1994 and says Bret went out of his way to make 123 kid look kid, nearly going so far as to turn heel during the course of the match - at a time when he was the no.1 babyface in the company - to give Waltman a huge break.

    As for Austin/Bret, Bret wanted to make SCSA look as good as possible, Bret and Austin have both said that when Vince wanted Austin to pass out in the sharpshooter, they weren't sold on the idea until Bret suggested that Austin blade, which would make further cement Austin's rep as a tough SOB. Bret was looking out for Austin, he knew he was going over at WM13 so he could have just went along with the finish Vince wanted but he knew it wouldn't do much for Steve. Is that the act of a selfish person?

    People are genuinely taking the word of Kevin Nash? who has contradicted himself so many times it's ridiculous.
     
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  6. agentmichaelscarn

    agentmichaelscarn Old School

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    What do you mean not evolving his character? He was the first person to swear on WWE television. He was the first person to get physically involved with Vince McMahon on TV and out him as the owner. He was a clean cut babyface for his whole singles career only to evolve into a completely edgier heel.

    I do agree though that he should take more responsibility for what happened in Montreal. Even though I can understand his decision he should atleast take some blame for what happened which he never does. I can't argue with you about that.
     
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  7. THTRobtaylor

    THTRobtaylor Once & Future Wrestlezone Columnist

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    Pillman was actually the first to swear on WWE TV... he did it several months before Bret did and before Austin 3:16... but as usual, people credit Attitude to those who ran with the ball, rather than who brought it to the party.

    Bret does take an element of responsibility, if he didn't, he'd never have any form of relationship with WWE or Vince. But he rightly or wrongly believes it was a small part he played and he was the "wronged party", yet was happy to slate Hogan, Nash and co for using their creative control like shotguns in WCW...

    He was actually the guy who made it a "thing" in the business to do that... till that point, if Hogan didn't like something, he just wouldn't show up... after Montreal, he and his buddies would actively change/book it their way on the night cos they saw what Bret failed in trying.

    Ultimately, Bret was proven wrong in the situation because WWE is not only still standing, but doing things "his way", PG, family friendly... He didn't get or care that Vince was losing his company...so he had to try Attitude... it worked, but first chance he got back to what he knew best, selling to kids... Bret could have stayed and been a big part of that on his 20 year deal... but like Savage before him, he felt wrestling past 40 was more important than the long game... and Bret hid behind "the direction of the company" and his morals/image of the Hitman to justify his desire to keep wrestling when Vince saw him more as an agent... If he'd kept his ego in check and accepted the reduced ring role, Bret would be where Trips is today.... suddenly 4/10 jibes make sense right?
     
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  8. LBGetBack

    LBGetBack Championship Contender

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    LMAO!!! And now he's talking about Montreal! Yup, you're really butthurt.

    Maybe you were bored watching WM12 because you were 8 years old? Your ADD is nobody else's business. The match is well-regarded. Cry about it.

    Your entire point here is completely moronic. Bret is selfish in looking out for his match, but Nash and Taker can do the same thing and it's cool. And the epic Diesel-Taker undercard match should've been built more, at the expense of the championship main event. Moronic.
     
    #33
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  9. comrade_mario

    comrade_mario Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    You're coming across as a little bitter yourself here. Your argument that Bret should have put over Nash's move has been put down by a few of us with simple booking logic and common sense but you're still trying to convince us that Bret was selfish for some reason and now you're taking shots at a guy considered to be one of the best ever by many fans. Do you have some personal axe to grind against the Hitman or something? Beginning to sound like it anyway.

    On your latest points. Who regards HBK v Bret Hart at Wrestlemania 12 as a great match? Well I've heard Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart both say it is one of their favourite matches ever, so that's the two best wrestlers of the 1990s for one. WWE calls it one of the greatest of all time, they've even ranked it as number one on some of their polls. Guys from Dolph Ziggler to Pat Patterson have said they were blown away by it and lots of fans have said the same too. Personally I think it's a little overrated but that's just an opinion of a fan in a sea of other voices saying it is one of the best of all time. If Michaels and Hart both say it was one of the best either man ever had than who I am to argue with them? It was better than Nash v Taker in any case.

    On Bret not changing up his gimmick. Are you serious? We had a thread on here recently talking about the multiple signs WWF was changing to the Attitude Era (because Vince didn't just wave his magic wand one night and switch it). Bret v Austin, Bret pushing Vince over, Bret's heel turn and the US v The Hart Foundation angle were all talked of as being important stepping stones to the Attitude Era. Go back and look at Bret's in-ring style in 1994 and compare it to his style in 1997, it had evolved greatly and included a lot more realistic brawling to compliment his technical skills. No surprise he won PWI's Wrestler of the Year that year.

    As for getting Austin over, well the only guy who ever gets a wrestler over is him/herself, but they do need help along the way from established acts and that's what Bret did for Austin. The WWE never makes mention of what happened after Austin cut his 3:16 promo at King of the Ring and they usually say he skyrocketed directly after it. The truth was though that Vince didn't know what to do with him and he wound up working a dark match at Summerslam. That's right, he didn't even make the card. It wasn't until Bret Hart handpicked him for his big comeback match (at a time when most thought he would work with Shawn Michaels in a rematch at Survivor Series) and let Austin look like he's equal that Stone Cold really took off. Everyone knows Austin wasn't supposed to switch to face so soon and he was being positioned as a top heel but Stone Cold captured lightning and the rest is history. Well history after he and Bret pulled off the greatest double turn in wrestling history that is.
     
    #34
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  10. THTRobtaylor

    THTRobtaylor Once & Future Wrestlezone Columnist

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    It's important to remember that Pillman was intended more to be the "Attitude" guy than Austin, when he signed they hoped he'd be back to full fitness relatively quickly and then HE would be the guy taking on Bret, Shawn and the like... with Austin as his partner as that team was known to be strong. Sadly, Brian wasn't healing quickly enough so they went to plan B with Austin in his role.

    Whatever Nash says, Pillman was hired to be a top guy as he was red hot on the mic... He was a Stampede guy so Bret would have helped him... There was even talk of a main event push for Goldust at the time, so it's not as cut and dried as Nash claims or history ended up being...

    The one thing Vince was good at in that year was rolling with the punches, Taker nearly dies cos of Mabel, shift gears with him, Pillman gets hot, get him over, Nash and Hall leave, hire talent like Austin, Ron Simmons and Mick Foley to fill in the gaps, even if it was JR who wanted them and when Austin hit THAT big, that quick, went with it...

    It's why it's so galling now that Vince doesn't really do it.
     
    #35
  11. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    Booking logic and common sense? Like I've said, I can see that side of the argument. I've said that a few times. So don't come on here and make it sound as if I'm completely ignoring those points. However, nobody has yet to explain to me how Bret and HBK wouldn't have been able to come back from this "oh so devastating and debilitating move". Nash was already dominating much of the match. The commentators had already put Nash over as being robbed. So would it really have hurt precious Bret Hart to take the powerbomb? Like I've said, they had more than a month until Mania and had plenty of time to come back from it. Especially with all the vignettes and such. 'Taker and Diesel didn't have vignettes and such to get their story over and rightfully so, they weren't in the main event. I just think Bret could have taken the powerbomb to help. IT WOULD NOT HAVE HURT HIM THAT MUCH!

    If the roles had been reversed and it was Nash as Champ and Hart in need of a story boost, fans would be all over this as one of the many examples of Nash as an asshole.
     
    #36
  12. comrade_mario

    comrade_mario Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I did on the last page. You said Bret could have come back from it on Raw and laid on the two matches he was booked to have between IYH and Wrestlemania and showed how he couldn't have got his heat back in that era. Christ, Nash should be bowing down to Bret for allowing him look so strong. If Bret wanted to be a real dick about it he would have had Nash submit to the Sharpshooter. He was the champion building a match that was selling Wrestlemania and was being designed to put Shawn Michaels over as the next Hulk Hogan.

    That IYH match could easily be pointed to as the start of the failure of HBK as a face champion in 1996 and yet you're screaming to the heavens about Bret acting selfish because Nash is still bitching about how he wasn't the number one guy in the company (which is all that is by the way). The WWF didn't revolve around Kevin Nash. At that specific time it revolved around Shawn Michaels and everything should have been done to get HBK off to as good a start as possible. A couple of vignettes from Bret wouldn't make up for getting dominated, powerbombed and saved at the last second by Undertaker.

    You might disagree with all of that but judging from everyone else in here it's safe to say that most agree with that assessment as logical booking and common sense. That's why you're coming off as someone with an axe to grind here.
     
    #37
  13. Just Do It

    Just Do It Getting Noticed By Management

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    Can't believe we are having this discussion in 2015? No Bret Hart wasn't selfish at all. All the details are public RE Montreal, I suggest OP seeks them out. The Meltzer piece at the time being far bar the best.
     
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  14. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    And Like I said, just because Bret only had two matches doesn't mean those were his only appearances on Raw. Matches aren't the only way to build heat and interest. Interviews and confrontations with HBK will do the job as well, not to mention the matches he did have and the vignettes that ran for him.

    I wouldn't care if everyone that posted in this thread agreed with you. All its coming down to is the fact that you're all fans of Bret. Like I said, if the tables were turned and we were talking about Nash not taking the Sharpshooter, it'd be more ammo in the Nash as an asshole gun. With 'Taker having Bret beaten at the RR when Nash interfered, it made more sense for Nash to be in that same position when 'Taker interfered. Damn I wish wrestlers were this selfish today. Might be a better main event scene. I think McMahon learned from his mistakes though and now he wouldn't take wrestlers calling their own shots.
     
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  15. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Championship Contender

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    It's been amusing reading this thread, but for my money, this is the post here that takes the cake.

    It's obvious this guy has a hate on for Bret Hart. The comment about the Iron Man match alone just throws any objectivity the poster here is pretending to have right out the window. One of the most overrated and boring matches in history? Listen... wrestling matches are subjective. What one person likes, someone else won't. That match wasn't what you personally like, and that's fine. But considering all the praise that it gets. From people in the business, outside the business, have no affiliation whatsoever with the business... it's pretty obvious that your assessment is part of a miniscule minority.

    Say you didn't enjoy the match, but recognize it's place in history, and you hold your objectivity. Say it was the most overrated match ever, and state that everyone who thinks differently has an agenda and is wrong? Yeah, you're not looking for objective opinions here. You're looking for people who hate Bret Hart as much as you do.

    Bret not wanting to take that powerbomb? He had every right to say no to it. He was the champion, set to go into the biggest show of the year. It was his job to not only help sell that show, but put Michaels over so strong that he could get the best possible start to his reign as he could give him. He'd already been made to look weak the previous month against the Taker. He'd already had to deal with being made to look like a fluke when he beat Nash by being relegated to wait 2 weeks to have his first interview as champ, while Nash buried him the week before as a cheater who got lucky. The way that reign was going, he was not looking like a strong champion at all, and he needed to be for Wrestlemania and Michaels. The match with Nash itself was already designed to make Nash look strong, and the finish with Taker coming up out of the ring already made Hart look weak. Why make it any worse?

    Why did Nash want the Powerbomb spot? Because it made him look stronger. Why did Taker want it? Because when he beat the guy who put his finish on the champ a month later, he looked stronger. In both cases, they were also being selfish and looking out for themselves and their match first. That was their right too... but in the end, the championship main event was a little more important than the battle of the big men undercard match.

    Hart was being selfish. He was also correct, and the guys who wouldn't stand up for themselves in situations like that... never ended up making it to the level that guys like Hart made it to. Even if they had more talent.
     
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  16. LBGetBack

    LBGetBack Championship Contender

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    So you're resorting to making up hypotheticals? SMH. Let's just stick to what actually DID happen.

    No reason to be so stubborn here. Just take your L and move on.
     
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  17. CrucifiedRaven

    CrucifiedRaven The Evenflow Effect

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    Some of you guys are delusional.

    Owen was never booked to be the champion, so Bret never refused to put him over. A triple threat for the title at WrestleMania 11? They didn't even start doing triple threats until much later in the 90s, that was unheard of in 1995 WWF.

    Davey was never meant to be champion at IYH 5. Bret needed to get "his win" back? What? He literally just won the title the month before and it was already booked that it'd be Shawn/Bret at WM12. Davey was never going to be booked to win.
     
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  18. Just Do It

    Just Do It Getting Noticed By Management

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    Get his win back from Davey? LOL, Bret was the one who WANTED to lose to Davey. Come on guys...
     
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  19. theHeadliner

    theHeadliner Getting Noticed By Management

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    Bret was the babyface champion coming off a great win in a great match against Bulldog. That was a classic at In Your House. When Michaels took the beating against Undertaker, he was the heel, so he was expected to take the beating, take whatever finisher, but win by interference or DQ or whatever, giving more heat to the Heartbreak Kid. Bret was the babyface, and taking the finisher of another semi-babyface, Diesel, who was kinda blurring the lines between heel/face at that point, and would have made Hart look bad. And Vince allowed him not to take the finisher, and its Vince's last word. Regardless of what Undertaker supposedly said in that meeting with Diesel and Bret, Vince has the final say. Just like Vince was fine with Michaels and Hart not going at WM13 because A. it was too predictable B. It was too soon C. Bret and Austin had great chemistry and the company wanted Bret with Austin cus they knew he could make him. Regardless of Shawn losing his smile nothing happens unless Vince allows it. Even if he was healthy I don't think it would have been Shawn and Bret at WM13. They did a good job teasing it with their promos after Bret came back, but its teasers, what-ifs. Maybe down the road in 1997 put Shawn and Bret together again, but their personal shit got in the way of that happening.
     
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  20. sikkbones

    sikkbones the root of all evil

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    Bret stayed in the wwe for less money than jumping to wcw for millions and a spot in a white hot Nwo angle.

    Had he left in 1996 he would have been booked better and not had the lingering specter of the screwjob affecting his booking...

    He also would not have had the heel turn he had that effectively ruined his (albeit small) southern fanbase... Something that also affected him in wcw.

    Vince was selfish and wanted to ruin bret before he jumped to wcw.

    Whether or not Bret knew about the screwjob before hand...

    I think Vince had planned to ruin bret the moment he resigned in 96
     
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  21. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    You have to remember that this was a different time in the business, pretty much everybody was looking out for themselves or had their own little kliq backstage. Bret was always there to help guys he thought could need help getting a spot in WWE. In fact Edge does credit him for helping him get is tryout with WWE and their hundreds of stories like Edge's story out there.

    The Nash stuff is just that Nash talking shit against somebody that's not is friend and never was. Nash was on his way out at this point, pretty much everybody knew that, he was also part of the Kliq, the same group that made Bret's and a lot of wrestlers backstage miserable because of the way they would manipulate the system to their advantage. Bret tried to stand up to them and it backfired on him because while Shawn was given time off to train for the ironman match, Bret got sent to do media apparence and wrestled almost every night and didn'T get a chance to get time off and just train for the match. Yet was man enough to make Shawn Look like a millions bucks during that mania 12 match. He didn'T have to do it but he did because he knew that shawn was the guy they wanted to replace him while he was away. So in that aspect he wasn'T selfish at all.

    As for everything else, let face it, Bret made Shawn micheals and to a certain extant Kevin Nash, the big name they are today and he got paid back by getting backstab at every opportunities the Kliq had so i'm not really surprise that at survivor series 97, Bret tried to stand up to the kliq one last time before he left by using his creative control card and wanting to keep the belt in montreal and if the story is true, he wanted to drop the belt the following night in Ottawa to Ken shamrock. Then Ken could have drop the belt to shawn at the following PPV. I don'T think it was selfish on his part, he just retaliate against the group that at the time where trying to push him out off his spot.
     
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  22. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    Actually, Nash didn't decide to leave until after this happened. This is what made Nash decide to leave. He's maintained for over 20 years that he would've stayed with the WWF/E if Bret would've been more flexible. And this wasn't the only time something like this happened, this was just the one that made Nash make his decision to leave.
     
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  23. sikkbones

    sikkbones the root of all evil

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    Have you met Kevin Nash?
    I have. Man is all about his money and his buddies.

    I don't believe a word he says because he won't put anyone over except himself.

    He was always gonna jump back to wcw after getting himself established in wwe.
    This is the man that coined the term vanilla midgets and booked wcw into the ground.
     
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  24. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    Well to each his own. I agree with your descriptions of Nash, I also think that he's telling the truth because 99% of the stories that he's told over the years have been corroborated by, not just his friends, but by people that didn't like him or don't like him, and others. Nash says, in this story, that after Bret decided that he wasn't going to take Nash's finish he and Scott Hall were showering after an event and he looked at Hall and said, "Tell Bischoff I'm in". Now, ask Scott Hall when Nash first told him that he was going to WCW too and Hall will say and has always said, "I think we were in the shower or something like that, maybe the bathroom. It was just before 'Mania, the one where he fought 'Taker and he said to tell Bischoff that I'm coming too".

    Sounds about right to me.
     
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  25. Psykohurricane55

    Psykohurricane55 Moderator
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    You also have to put yourself in Bret's shoes at the time. The kliq was pretty much running the backstage area if you believe what everybody that we're there at the time have said and Bret was one of the guy that they tried to push down every chance they got because Shawn hated Bret and it was well known backstage, so Bret when the same route that any of the member of the kliq would have done and he thought of himself instead of making Nash look good on his way out. It was well known way back in February of that year that Nash was leaving and whatever Nash is saying right now is selected memory kinda like hulk Hogan would tell you that he left because he wanted to take a break from wrestling back in 93.

    These guys are great in spinning the truth to make themselves look good and sadly Nash is one of the greatest at that.
     
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