Was Bret Hart Selfish?

Discussion in 'Old School Wrestling' started by SSJPhenom, Aug 31, 2015.

  1. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,802
    Likes Received:
    399
    I'd like to share a video with you guys:

    [YOUTUBE]mDp1WFFjXAc[/YOUTUBE]​

    After watching this video on YouTube, I wrote in the comments that this wasn't the first time I've heard stories from past wrestlers talk about how selfish Bret was and about how he only thought of his own character. I had forgotten that I was talking negatively about Bret Hart on the internet. After I posted that comment, you'd have thought that I killed someone. Some people responded to me and said that the real reason Bret was like that was because he took the business very seriously. Others said that the WWF was building up for their WrestleMania 12 main event and needed Bret to look like a huge babyface for the Iron Man Match vs HBK. I'm of the opinion that it wouldn't have hurt Bret's character at all to just have taken the powerbomb and still walk out as champion. Like Nash said, it would've added to his match with 'Taker and would've made it mean more. One guy even told me that Nash was a nobody then and didn't deserve to perceive to have beaten Bret because he was nothing. To which I responded with how could Nash have been a nobody then when he had just come off of the longest Title run of the 90s? I said at that point in time he was just as over as Bret and HBK. So I thought I would share the video here and get the forum's opinion on the subject.

    What do you guys think? Was Bret Hart selfish for not taking Nash's finish before 'Taker pulled Nash under the ring in that cage match or am I completely off base? Was Bret right in what he did? Was it actions like these that led to his problems with guys like HBK and others? Was it actions like these that led to the Montreal Screwjob? Let me know your opinions.
     
    #1
  2. ComeOnVince

    ComeOnVince Pre-Show Stalwart

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    41
    It probably was selfish for Hart not to take the power bomb.

    However, it was Bret's responsibility to look out for Bret's character. Wrestling is a very political business. It think if knew everything about every wrestler we ever loved, we'd be disgusted with the whole lot.

    Would it have hurt him? No. What reasons did he have? We don't know.

    What we do know is that Nash is seen as one of the most self-centered jackasses in the history of the business, and I have a hard time taking his word on this.
     
    #2
    SSJPhenom likes this.
  3. rmp0012002

    rmp0012002 Championship Contender

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2014
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    38
    People are successful due to their egos and Bret is no different. Wrestling is a sport where you always have to do whatever you have to to keep your character strong. Shawn and Nash were asses and would have been if Bret was there or not. Bret was old school and believed things we're done a certain way but if Vince was going to allow Shawn and others to follow their own rules he could play that game too.
     
    #3
    SSJPhenom likes this.
  4. Dmbfantomas

    Dmbfantomas Bald Billy was Better

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    455
    Likes Received:
    302
    Bret was looking out for the main event of the biggest show of the year. Was it a little selfish? SURE, but at the same time I wouldn't have had a problem if anyone else was in his position. Bret had to look strong going into the Iron Man match, because it makes Shawn winning that much more important.

    Also, Nash can fucking BLOW ME about saying his match was the "Co-Main". That was a one match show, and that one match sure as shit wasn't Diesel vs Taker in a "This means absolutely nothing" match.
     
    #4
    SSJPhenom likes this.
  5. Rhodes2TheFuture3313

    Rhodes2TheFuture3313 Getting Noticed By Management

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Messages:
    278
    Likes Received:
    33
    I think Bret was selfish in 1994 when he didn't job to Owen at SummerSlam. It would have solidified Owen as a top-player and it could have set-up Bret vs. HBK vs. Diesel in the main event of WM 11.
     
    #5
    SSJPhenom likes this.
  6. THTRobtaylor

    THTRobtaylor Once & Future Wrestlezone Columnist

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,327
    Likes Received:
    861
    Bret was and to an extent still is a master of hiding his political abilities. He was the middle son who never wanted to be a wrestler, yet ends up the most successful over the "better workers" like Bruce and Owen... yet he was always the "reasonable one" on the surface, where Bruce was "outspoken" and Owen "the joker".

    I can well believe Nash pushing for his finish, but by then it was also known Nash was leaving... Why should Bret then help make him look any stronger for the competition?

    When it came to Montreal, Bret was selfish - he was selfish to an extent not dropping the title to Davey at IYH 5 in their rematch he had to get "his win" back, a criticism levelled at Hogan in the past.

    But Bret was in many ways a good kind of selfish, he looked at it from a fans perspective more than Shawn, Nash or Hogan did... or rather HIS fans perspective, so he was if anything a little short-sighted rather than out and out selfish. The only time he balked was to Shawn on his way out... how many times did Nash, Hogan or Shawn use the "that doesn't work for me brother" or a variation of it?
     
    #6
  7. FromGlasgow

    FromGlasgow Championship Contender

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    78
    I don't even know if it was Bret Hart's decision at the Royal Rumble against Kevin Nash

    Nash wasn't political during his career? I don't think Bret Hart was anymore political than any others at his level, In your theory I guess the only ones who can't be accused of being seflish would be the jobbers.
    I believe it was a different era back then where wrestlers had to protect their reputation and character.
     
    #7
  8. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,802
    Likes Received:
    399
    I can understand looking out for one's character. That makes sense. On the other hand, though, there's the whole what's good for business and what's bad for business argument. In this particular case, I believe it would have been best for business for Bret to take the powerbomb. Let's use Michaels as an example. When he feuded with 'Taker in the late 90s, in every single one of those matches, 'Taker beat the living hell out of Shawn. Having said that, though, 'Taker also lost every single one of those matches. What gets to me in this situation is that Bret had the opportunity to do something to help out two other guys with their angle. Nash may have been a huge dick head, but was 'Taker? This would've helped 'Taker just as much as Nash. Also, at the end of the day, Bret should've done what he was told to do. They say HBK and them were hard to deal with back in the day but if Vince put his foot down and demanded they do something, they always did it. Bret, not so much.

    I'm just saying Bret had the chance to help others and he didn't do it. He was worried about perceiving to have been beat when he knew that by the time of WM, fans wouldn't have been thinking about that.
     
    #8
    Dmbfantomas likes this.
  9. Dmbfantomas

    Dmbfantomas Bald Billy was Better

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    455
    Likes Received:
    302
    It would have mattered a fair bit, actually. Bret WAS doing what was best for business. You should want that main event match that is going to be an hour long to have as much heat on it as humanly possible, not the hoss fest that is a significantly lesser match. No one was buying that show for Taker v Diesel. No one. Not even Nash's family.
     
    #9
  10. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,802
    Likes Received:
    399
    Exactly! See, they could have generated so much more heat for Nash/'Taker if Nash had have been seconds away from pinning Bret when 'Taker interfered.
     
    #10
  11. LBGetBack

    LBGetBack Championship Contender

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2013
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    253
    Huh? Bret wasn't the booker.

    He was booked to win. He didn't play politics to get that win.

    He put Owen over at WrestleMania, and that MADE Owen. Owen was a nobody in WWF before that.
     
    #11
  12. comrade_mario

    comrade_mario Mid-Card Championship Winner

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,022
    Likes Received:
    234
    What is the logic in saying Bret was selfish for not making Nash look stronger but Nash was right for wanting to make Bret look weaker?

    Bret was the champion and he was being positioned to drop the strap to HBK to get Michaels' reign off to as strong a start as possible. How does Bret only holding on to the title because Undertaker interfered when Nash had him beat do that exactly? Bret taking the jacknife powerpomb not only makes him look like a weak champion but it also messes with HBK's start as champion too.

    I guarantee you it wasn't just Bret saying he shouldn't take the finisher, there's no way Vince would have allowed it either and I'm sure HBK wouldn't have wanted it if consulted.
     
    #12
  13. OYDK

    OYDK King Of The Ring

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2014
    Messages:
    2,243
    Likes Received:
    736
    Yeah, I agree with this. There was no reason for Bret to take Nash' jackknife at the end of the match. It does everything for Nash and absolutely nothing for Bret, your champion, who is defending the title in the main event of Wrestlemania 12 one month from then. Selfish? No, I wouldn't call it that. More like logic. Why would you make Diesel, who is 4 months away from jumping to WCW, look stronger than Bret, your WWF Champion and face of the company?

    It would have been a poor booking decision heading into the Hart/Michaels Mania match, and it would have only added a small element to the Taker/Diesel Mania match. As hardheaded and stubborn as Bret was, he was also very intelligent when it came to the ins and outs of the wrestling business, and he understood that there was no logic in having Diesel look like he had Bret beat.
     
    #13
  14. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,802
    Likes Received:
    399
    I don't think any of that crossed his mind when this issue was brought up. If it were, then why would Vince have asked Bret to take the powerbomb? Nash contends that Vince and Undertaker both asked Bret to take Nash's finish. Also, if Bret wasn't selfish, explain Montreal to me. And don't give me that half assed excuse Bret gave in the documentary with HBK about how HBK said he'd never drop the title to Bret. I don't buy that for a second and the reason I don't buy that is because that was the first time it had ever been brought up before. If that were the reason behind Bret flat out not dropping the title in Montreal, we would've heard about it before that film.
     
    #14
  15. HBKperfect23

    HBKperfect23 Championship Contender

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2011
    Messages:
    517
    Likes Received:
    72
    Was Bret selfish for not taking the move when asked by Vince? Sure. It's Vinces company and Bret should have taken any finish he asked. Would it have helped Taker/Nash for Mania? Absolutely.

    The sense behind it? I don't get it. Bret/HBK was a dream match. They wrestled while Shawn was in the mid card during 92/93 but Shawn never posed much of a threat to Bret as champion. With Shawn being a face, you have the two biggest faces in the company headlining mania a month later. Nash was on his way out anyway. I think there could have been a better way to get more heat in the Taker/Nash feud.

    Maybe Vince thought Bret looked strong enough and could afford to take the finish. Two ppvs in a row tho?.....I don't get it, plus the storyline of "best in the world" Bret/Shawn should have both been booked as unbeatable IMO.
     
    #15
    SSJPhenom likes this.
  16. comrade_mario

    comrade_mario Mid-Card Championship Winner

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,022
    Likes Received:
    234
    Keep in mind guys that you're taking Nash's word for Vince & Taker both wanting Bret to take the powerbomb and Nash, if you've watched a few of his interviews, is a notorious embellisher of the truth. Even when he's not drunk during one of these he brings out some whoppers.

    Go check out his explanation of why he booked himself to beat Goldberg and why the fingerpoke of doom happened if you don't believe me. It was on a Legends of Wrestling roundtable but I can't remember which one, possible the Stables one or the nWo one itself. He maintains that he booked himself to beat Goldberg and reform the nWo the next night to run this mega angle of Goldberg cutting through each member one by one to get to Hogan and says the only reason the angle failed was because Goldberg punched out that car window and slashed his arm up to the extent he was out for months.

    All pretty reasonable and sounds legit if you weren't watching WCW at the time. If you were than you might have realised that that can't be true because Goldberg punched out the window over a year after the fingerpoke of doom angle and that really what happened was Nash and Hogan's way of positioning themselves on top again and cutting Goldberg's legs from underneath him. Which brings up another thing, Nash should be the last person to point a finger at another wrestler and say they're selfish.
     
    #16
  17. agentmichaelscarn

    agentmichaelscarn Old School

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    89
    Didn't read all the responses so I apologize if I'm repeating something. With that said you and Nash are both wrong. Bret may or may not be selfish, I don't know, but he was totally right in this instance.

    Bret vs. Shawn was the main event of Wrestlemania. It was one of the most hyped WWF matches in a long time. Shawn dominated the RUmble, won cleanly at IYH and had the whole "boyhood dream" narrative going for him. They made him look strong. Now Bret on the other hand essentially lost at RR, and essentially lost at IYH. If he took the powerbomb it would make him look even worse. Bret wanted to have some credibility going into the freaking main event of Wrestlemania.

    Bret was a face, and at that time faces never won dirty, Bret was winning dirty twice in a row. He already was looking weak, why make him look even weaker? Why make the champ look like garbage? The main event is what sells PPVs, and him and HBK were the main event. Who would buy the ppv at that time unless you were a shawn fan? Bret looked like crap. Again this was the kayfabe era, Bret wanted people to atleast think he had a chance so more people would buy it.

    The Diesel Taker match sold itself. Between the two they had one clean loss in their entire careers. That is a good enough story right there. Two monsters fighting it out.

    If Bret was selfish he would have demanded a clean win over Diesel but he didn't. Also he knew he was dropping the belt to Shawn and taking time off, if he wanted to stick it to shawn he would want to look as weak as possible so Shawn's win would look worse.

    Bret was looking out for the main event at Wrestlemania, where as Nash and Taker were looking out for themselves. At that time Bret forgot more about wrestling then the both of them knew combined.
     
    #17
  18. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,802
    Likes Received:
    399
    Damn, I just completely realized that I totally posted the wrong video. This is the video that I ment to post:

    [YOUTUBE]av8P_MORJjE[/YOUTUBE]​

    Still think Bret wasn't selfish?

    Also, to the guy that posted above me, I don't know why you felt the need to post here what you posted on YouTube. So if you need a response, go to what I said to you on YouTube.
     
    #18
  19. OYDK

    OYDK King Of The Ring

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2014
    Messages:
    2,243
    Likes Received:
    736
    Yes, I still don't think Bret was selfish in this instant. The fact that The Undertaker got mad at Bret (or Nash SAYS Taker got mad at Bret) doesn't change the points that many have made. You think Nash would have allowed himself to be beaten twice in two consecutive PPV's as the champ heading into Mania? You think Shawn would have? Even Taker? I doubt it.

    Bret was looking out for himself AND his main event, sure. But what the fuck were Taker and Nash doing? The same damn thing. Bret taking Nash's finish only made the Taker/Diesel match mean more... it didn't do anything for Shawn/Bret. You can spin this and call it selfish for those two to pressure Bret into taking the Jackknife if you tried hard enough. Bret was hardheaded and he always looked out for himself and his family, but so was everybody else in the biz because that's the way pro wrestling worked at this time. It was eat or be eaten. You can call Bret selfish, but than you would have to say that for everyone else who refused to a finish or a match outcome.
     
    #19
  20. agentmichaelscarn

    agentmichaelscarn Old School

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    89
    I just don't understand how you could think he was being selfish in this scenario. I'm not saying he wasn't selfish, I'm sure at some point he was, I just don't think this instance was selfish at all. Like I said, if he wanted to be selfish he could've demanded to look strong, he could've said "I looked like shit last PPV against taker, I want to win this one clean." Or at the very least make sure Taker came out when Bret had the upper hand. But he didn't, he made still let Nash dominate him and be in control when Taker came out. He just wanted to give himself. the champion, some credibility going into the main event of Wrestlemania. I don't see how that is selfish at all.

    Edit: To put it into perspective it would be like asking Warrior to look like shit before Mania 6 to sell an undercard match, or telling Cena to job to Bobby Lashley before Mania 23 to hype up him and Ugama's match, that's what Nash wanted Bret Hart to do. He wanted the face champion going into a face vs. face match that was headlining wrestlemania to look like shit so it could benefit the two 7fter's feuds that were the undercard. And Bret was the selfish one? Sorry I just find this whole thing baffling.
     
    #20
    LBGetBack likes this.
  21. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,802
    Likes Received:
    399
    Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and as I've said before, I can certainly see the other side of this thing. I'm not so hard headed that I can't. Having said that, though, I still think that Bret would've been fine going into WM 12 for 2 reasons. 1) Bret was still the Champion. He would've had at least a month or more of Raws to help build himself for the Iron Man Match. Especially being the Champion and main focus of the company. 2) The fact that Nash was a 7 foot monster. Bret is considered by many to be one of the smaller champions in WWE history. So having Nash essentially have Bret beaten before 'Taker interfered wouldn't have been out of the scope of reality. WWE was definitely about big guys back then.

    I'm sorry, I just don't see it as being that detrimental to Bret's character. I definitely don't see it as something that he wouldn't have been able to come back from before WM 12. It just wouldn't have hurt him. On the other hand, it would've added so much more to the 'Taker/Nash match.
     
    #21
  22. comrade_mario

    comrade_mario Mid-Card Championship Winner

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,022
    Likes Received:
    234
    You're thinking of Raw as it is now rather than back then. Someone like Bret might be on Raw once a month for an interview and once for a match back then and that's it. Rarely he'd have matches and when he would they wouldn't be against someone of the same caliber as Diesel so he would have no way of getting back his heat. To give you an idea of what the show was like than here's the main events of every Raw after that IYH and who of HBK, Bret, Diesel and Undertaker appeared in matches.

    Feb 19th: Undertaker v Tatanka
    Feb 27th: Diesel v Bob Holly
    Mar 4th: Bret v Triple H & HBK vs 123 Kid
    Mar 11th: Undertaker & Yoko v Owen & Bulldog
    Mar 18th: Diesel v Barry Horowitz & Bret v Tatanka
    Mar 25th: HBK v Leif Cassidy

    So Bret only has two on screen matches following the match with Diesel and they're against a very green Triple H and Tatanka when he was past his best run. Not exactly enough to get him his heat back after being all but beaten by Diesel.

    Bret's match was more important to build than Nash's, that's the be all and end all of it. Bret and Shawn were two bigger stars than Nash and Undertaker at the time and their match was the main event. Nash should just be thanking Bret for Bret not wanting to beat him clean.
     
    #22
    Mustang Sally likes this.
  23. LBGetBack

    LBGetBack Championship Contender

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2013
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    253
    So basically, you're OK with Taker and Diesel being selfish and looking out for their match, but not Bret?

    Makes sense. Diesel is/was/always will be an idiot, and Taker was significantly less experienced than Bret at the time.

    LMAO at internet fans hating Bret this much. It's usually people who weren't even old enough to be fans when Bret was wrestling, too. So weird.

    Look.....nobody gives a shit about the Taker-Nash match. Not now, not then. And they could've made them both look like the 2 greatest of all time going into it, and still nobody would care. Neither one of them had the goods to deliver. It is what it is.

    SMH at wanting to knock the Hart-Michaels build down(which was for the TITLE, and a guaranteed classic match) for a secondary match. No Diesel....NO YOU FUCKING WEREN'T THE "CO-MAIN-EVENT".

    Sick of these dumbasses saying dumb shit 20 years later, and gullible ass fans actually riding for them. Sit down Nash. Please. Just sit down. You're lucky Bret didn't beat you clean with the sharpshooter, which being that he was the top star in the company and the champion, heading into a huge WM title match.....he probably should have.
     
    #23
  24. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,802
    Likes Received:
    399
    This is one of the most moronic things I have ever read.

    First off, its the internet fans that love Bret and overrate him to hell and gone. When in actuality he was one of the worst draws as Champion in WWE history. Second of all, who the hell are you to say Nash should sit down and that he doesn't know what he was talking about? Let me guess, you were actually in the WWE at the time and know exactly what was going down. What's really funny here is fans such as yourself coming to the defense of one of the biggest cry babies in wrestling history. That Iron Man Match, that you call an instant classic, was one of the most boring and overrated matches in history. An hour of rest hold after rest hold after rest hold, draw, super kick, the end. Wow, what a clinic. Literally almost every Iron Man Match after that one was better. I don't get how you or anyone else can say Nash is lucky that Bret didn't beat him clean. Like Nash was a nobody back then. He had just come off of the LONGEST TITLE REIGN OF THE 90's and he was just as over as HBK and Hart. So no, Bret wasn't going to beat him clean even if he wanted to.

    Again, him taking that finish wouldn't have hurt him that bad. It just wouldn't have. Also, whether or not he had a match on every Raw from then till Mania, I'm sure he appeared. Having a match isn't the only way to gain momentum. Especially with all the vignettes and such that HBK and Bret had. Give me a break at saying he didn't have time to bounce back. (to the guy before you) Bret would've been fine if he took that powerbomb. I'm more surprised that the Bret faithful think so little of him to think that it would've hurt him so bad. Like he wouldn't have been able to recover at all. That's what you're all essentially saying.

    And yes, I think Hart should've taken the powerbomb to help Nask and 'Taker's match. Their match could've benefited from that extra added element. Definitely would've made their match mean more because they definitely didn't have the vignettes or time that HBK and Hart had.
     
    #24
  25. whoopin' ass

    whoopin' ass Championship Contender

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Messages:
    997
    Likes Received:
    88
    Yes but no more than anyone else in the same position. I just watched that clip a few days ago myself and agree that Bret should have taken the powerbomb. It would have made no difference towards him but helped the other storyline. But he wasn't the first top talent to do that. Bret also worked with just about anyone which is something most top talent wouldn't do - he literally has had matches with everyone. You can't be that selfish and still do that. Hogan wouldn't because what if they made him look bad? I do think there were times when he was selfish but no more than anyone else in that spot would and I think less than a lot of guys.
     
    #25
    SSJPhenom likes this.

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"