TNA Region, Nashville Subregion, First Round: (1) John Cena vs. (32) Earthquake

[enviousdominous]

I have not watched TNA much recently, but did their ring get magical powers at some point?

Nobody suggested that the TNA ring has magic powers.

How the hell is the outcome of this match changed by the fact its in a TNA ring?

The outcome of this match hasn't been determined yet.

Because the small crowd surrounding it are mostly smarks?

You already admitted that you haven't watched TNA in a long time, you don't have an informed opinion regarding the mindset of their fan-base.

Does that somehow mean Creative decides to eliminate Cena in the first round for the lulz?

If they want to make money, it most definitely means that. Cena draws bigger numbers when he's booked to lose.

Does being in TNA mean Tenta is called Shark Boy 3XL & thus a fan favorite?

No, you should have read the name of this thread. If that's too much trouble, it clearly says John Cena vs Earthquake. Trust me.

Can I possibly add another question to this paragraph for emphasis?

I don't think you're mentally capable of doing that.

Well?

I rest my case.

This match could take place on a trampoline outside Home Depot & the outcome is still the same. John Cena picks up a victory & Tenta goes home to eat his feelings.

Sounds like either you don't have very much faith in John Cena's ability to put on a decent match, or you lack the creativity required to imagine a match that could even meet the standards of an average Cena match.

This match is taking place in an area where John Cena is not wanted in this round, or in subsequent rounds. Earthquake gets the win because he's proven before that he can win the crowd even when they're predominantly against him.

 

[Danger Burger]

In a tournament to crown the greatest pro wrestler of all time, I am going to vote on the side of the 14 time world champion and face of the largest wrestling company in the world. Common sense, really. Cena takes it.

 

[Con T.]

Nobody suggested that the TNA ring has magic powers

That's the only way Earthquake is going over.

The outcome of this match hasn't been determined yet.

Yeeeeah, this is pretty well in hand. Have you seen the vote?

You already admitted that you haven't watched TNA in a long time, you don't have an informed opinion regarding the mindset of their fan-base.

No, but he's spent plenty of time on a forum filled with them. Sorry, KJ and IDR.

Is Rayne a TNA fan?

If they want to make money, it most definitely means that. Cena draws bigger numbers when he's booked to lose.

Then wouldn't it make sense that the higher caliber the match, and higher ranked the opponent, the bigger audience?

No, you should have read the name of this thread. If that's too much trouble, it clearly says John Cena vs Earthquake. Trust me.

Tenta's tumor lump probably weigh as much as Shark Boy.

Sounds like either you don't have very much faith in John Cena's ability to put on a decent match, or you lack the creativity required to imagine a match that could even meet the standards of an average Cena match.

This match is taking place in an area where John Cena is not wanted in this round, or in subsequent rounds. Earthquake gets the win because he's proven before that he can win the crowd even when they're predominantly against him.

Where exactly are you getting this idea Cena isn't wanted? Because he seems to be winning the vote of wrestling fans pretty handily.

 

[enviousdominous]

This idea that TNA fans are somehow comparable to ECW fans is laughable.

I'm sure you have a very good explanation for that conclusion.

TNA fans are the same as WWE fans. They aren't some niche promotion like ROH is or ECW was, they are WWE Lite.

Try telling a TNA fan that they're just a less distinguished version of a WWE fan.

If Cena debuted in TNA, he would be the golden boy. He would be the biggest acquisition they have ever made.

And he wouldn't be able to shed the stigma of being the guy who was handed his accomplishments in a more dominant company for being the world's most prolific ass kisser.

TNA fans would be ecstatic because, for the first time ever, they may be able to realistically compete with WWE and be seen something other than the 2nd best company.

I think TNA fans are more concerned with the content of their show granting them their money's worth than they are watching a show that wants to beat the WWE at their own game. They've tried that before and I like to believe that they've learned from their mistake.

Earthquake being signed by TNA would be akin to Mark Henry being signed to TNA. He'd get a push, but not at the expense of the biggest star of the past decade. And Mark Henry is better than Tenta.

While I would rather not discuss Mark Henry's potential, even he never attempted to get over with a crowd outside of the WWE.

John Cena might have to play a different role for a TNA crowd or sport a different look at his debut, he could change everything about his act but he'll still be the guy that majority of the crowd hates even in his home turf. John Cena could have never become a star in any other venue, John Tenta became a star because he could hang in every other venue he participated in.

 

[enviousdominous]

El Santo has homefield advantage in Mexico because he was the biggest draw in Mexico. John Cena has homefield advantage in the USA because he's the biggest draw in the USA.

Compare the crowd reaction to an El Santo match literally anywhere in Mexico, and the crowd reaction to a John Cena match in Chicago or Pittsburgh. John Cena doesn't enjoy home field advantage just because he's in the US, the crowd in Boston has booed him before.

To them, the promotion they work for doesn't matter. They will always be the top draws and be treated as such.

Did you see John Cena perform at One Night Stand? Those weren't a bunch of imported Portuguese fans, those were Americans.

So mid-card giants like Earthquake will be fed to the top stars on semi-major wrestling cards. It doesn't matter if it's WWE, TNA, or Venus. Outside of a run-in beatdown that Earthquake would give him to build for their match; John Cena will always beat Earthquake. It's what's best for business.

If the buy-rate for Wrestlemania 29 is any indicator, then it's not best for business to have John Cena defeat a returning superstar. No matter what Earthquake might do in terms of heel tactics, he wouldn't be able to get the crowd to turn on him.

 

[Con T.]

I'm sure you have a very good explanation for that conclusion.

ECW fans were diehard, TNA fans are kinda indifferent.

Try telling a TNA fan that they're just a less distinguished version of a WWE fan.

You should see what I say to Killjoy on a weekly basis.

And he wouldn't be able to shed the stigma of being the guy who was handed his accomplishments in a more dominant company for being the world's most prolific ass kisser.

And where is this stigma coming from? Either than your deluded mind?

I think TNA fans are more concerned with the content of their show granting them their money's worth than they are watching a show that wants to beat the WWE at their own game. They've tried that before and I like to believe that they've learned from their mistake.

Which means they likely want Cena to lose a more high stakes match.

John Cena might have to play a different role for a TNA crowd or sport a different look at his debut, he could change everything about his act but he'll still be the guy that majority of the crowd hates even in his home turf. John Cena could have never become a star in any other venue, John Tenta became a star because he could hang in every other venue he participated in.

God, you're pathetic.

 

[Con T.]

If the buy-rate for Wrestlemania 29 is any indicator, then it's not best for business to have John Cena defeat a returning superstar. No matter what Earthquake might do in terms of heel tactics, he wouldn't be able to get the crowd to turn on him.

Umm... That Mania is the highest grossing Mania of all time, and the fifth highest buyrate, ever?

You keep trumpeting ot's this awful buyrate, because Cena beat a returning Rock. It isn't... In fact, it's one of the highest buyrates ever. Actually, two of the ones that best it featured Cena winning over JBL and Shawn Michaels. JB freaking L. So what are we to make of that?

 

[enviousdominous]

How did this get to the point where it reached seven pages?

It's a mystery wrapped inside an enigma while cocooned in the silk of riddles.

John Cena has been the top unchallenged face in wrestling longer then anyone in wrestling history.

Umm. Bruno Sammartino? That guy never lost the crowd.

Longer then Rock. Longer then Hogan. Longer then Austin. He may not have the popularity and sustainability in that sense that the others do, but he's been on top longer as a face. That's one heck of an accomplishment.

Do you know why he doesn't have lasting popularity? John Cena has long out-waited his welcome for the average pro-wrestling fan. He's been around so long trying to push the same tired image that his image is a parody of how a pro-wrestler is expected to present himself. He makes every attempt to produce the same act every show and for that he's rendered himself as looking so ridiculous that he's virtually critic proof. His image is popular because it employs shameless pop-culture aesthetics that have nothing to do with what it takes to sell a pro-wrestling match. He's critic proof, but in a bad way. He's timeless, but in an even worse way. He's impossible to ignore, but in the worst possible way.

Oh, and there's that pesky fact that in nine years, he's been a fourteen time World Champion. Earthquake? He got a feud with Hogan over the World Title, which he lost, and Hogan threw him out with ease when they were the final two in the Royal Rumble.

John Cena draws bigger losing championships than he does winning them. The belt inevitably has to end up on his waist because otherwise his character makes no sense on tv.

Earthquake didn't come into the business with the full support of the people who ran the business, he had to claw his way to whatever status he could get. This was a time well after the WWF put all of it's stock in Hogan, and it was Hogan that chose Earthquake to make him look good.

He went on to win a Tag Team championship, but here's a list of people who have won the tag team championships as well in Cena's era.

I'm predicting that this list will only recognize people that would validate your perspective if nobody else had ever been a tag team champion.

-Ted DiBiase
-Cody Rhodes
-David Otunga
-Heath Slater
-Justin Gabriel
- Lance Cade(RIP)
- Trevor Murdoch
- Tyson Kidd
-Harry Smith
-Chavo Guerrero
-Drew McIntyre

Why did you list those names and omit bigger stars?

Why did I list these names, and omit bigger stars such as Edge and Orton? Because unlike the names on the list(which is off the top of my head) all of these men achieved little else. Some are still with the company, and all of them are men Cena has beaten in one on one competition, mostly squashes.

So you admit that you only listed those names because including bigger names would invalidate your point.

Earthquake's biggest accomplishment is a very short Tag Team Championship reign with his buddy Typhoon. After one retention, they lost the titles back to Money Inc.

They were a very over tag team even though they were supposed to be playing the part of heels. The crowd was against them, and they changed their tune because of the talent that tag team displayed. The crowd never hated Earthquake when they were supposed to like him, unlike Cena.

Let's keep one other thing in mind: Earthquake was billed as a monster heel, one who faces had to overcome the odds to defeat. Well gee whiz, does that sound like anyone we know? Maybe Mr. Hustle, Loyalty, and Respect himself?

John Cena's opponents are often monster heels, and most of them end up getting cheered by the crowd. Earthquake wouldn't be able to be billed as a monster heel in this match, no matter what he did to change the crowd's mind they would pick him as their favorite to win.

John Cena has the chance to be the most accomplished wrestler, championships wise, in the history of professional wrestling. Not only this, but he's retained those championships against the biggest and best of his era. Earthquake's stint in the main event can be equated to a Umaga or Great Khali, both who Cena beat multiple times to retain his championship.

A bigger test of your abilities as a pro-wrestler is whether or not you can use your image to draw big numbers in another promotion. The only way I see John Cena drawing comparably to how he draws in the WWE is if he's booked to lose, that's how the WWE makes more money for their cards.

What would make Earthquake different? This isn't sumo, it's professional wrestling. And Earthquake finds himself up against, in my humble opinion, the greatest professional wrestler of all-time.

Good grief, for the last time. I never said that this is a Sumo wrestling match. I was noting how John Tenta's record in Sumo is a significant accomplishment that got him noticed by the top brass of NJPW. John Cena wouldn't have gotten a second look from them for having failed to achieve modest success in the world of professional body-building.

He's Mark Henry at Money In The Bank 13. Earthquake dominates for a couple minutes, Cena makes his comeback, Five Knuckle Shuffle, AA, STF, Earthquake taps to advance Cena to the second round.

I don't think that this match would only last for what you apparently imagine would be two and a half minutes, I think the crowd would demand refunds if that happened. I see John Cena in TNA as being like Dick the Bruiser in the WWF. John Cena is an obnoxious version of a WWE guy no matter where he works, he's even more toxic if he presents himself to TNA.

If the crowd gets what they want, I predict Earthquake managing to pull out a win.

 

[enviousdominous]

Well y'know, it's pretty obvious that Cena should win here. Are you a silly billy or something.

I'm a human being with an opinion that I'm willing to explain. Don't quote my entire post and then make your argument into a cheap attempt to put me on the defensive that doesn't in any way reference any of the points I made.

If it's so obvious that Cena should win here, then I imagine that even you wouldn't have trouble describing why you've reached that conclusion.

Cena beats Earthquake via Hurricanrana after 8 seconds.

You would pay money to watch an eight second match just so you could soak in the aura that you see surrounding John Cena? I hate to break it to you, but the people around you might kill your vibe by booing the shit out of him.

I think the money decision is Cena winning unanimously because everybody likes Cena, even you but you don't know it yet, but you will.

I'm not aware of the fact that I like John Cena? You're just a little mind fucker aren't you? Trying to plant the seed of an idea in my head won't work on me young grasshopper, especially one as stupid as the idea that the punchline to the worst joke ever told in pro-wrestling history that is John Cena will get me liking him eventually.

So just vote right yeah?

Oh, I already voted for Earthquake. I really don't give a shit if I violate the social contract you imagine that we have.

 

[Con T.]

John Cena draws bigger losing championships than he does winning them.

Wrestlemania 21: 1,085,000 (Won the title against JBL)
Wrestlemania 23: 1,250,000 (Successful defense against HBK)
Wrestlemania 27: 1,042,000 (Loss to the Miz in the title match)

Stasically, you're wrong.

 

[enviousdominous]

Here's the problem with this scenario. Those count-out wins weren't in matches that meant anything, and Earthquake actually lost to Hogan by count-out for the WWF Title. This is a big-time match, equatable to the WWF Title.

This is not comparable to a match for the WWF title, Klunderbunker never added anything more than where it is and what kind of rules to expect. John Cena lost his Money in the Bank cash-in by count-out on the one thousandth episode of Monday Night Raw. I think there was more on the line that night than there is for this encounter.

If anyone loses by countout here, it's Earthquake.

So now you're predicting that this will indeed result in a count-out finish. Earthquake has a much better record winning those matches than John Cena does.

ECW was an alternative to the WWF. TNA? It's WWE with poorer booking and less talent. Cena would be a God-send to TNA, and the only prayer TNA would have in competing with WWE, ratings-wise.

You obviously aren't a very big fan of TNA. I'm sure that TNA fans don't consider themselves to be a lower tier of pro-wrestling fan; TNA fans that I've met consider their favored product to be better than the WWE precisely because a guy like John Cena can be allowed to own the WWE.

Cena would be a God-send for TNA, if he was booked to lose. When presented to a jeering crowd, it makes sense for John Cena to play to their whims.

Tenta, were he still alive, would be losing Monster's Ball matches to Abyss.

If you really want to speculate on things like that, put a little more detail into why you came to that kind of conclusion. It's not my burden to explain your fantasies for you.

Him being a 14 time champion says that he's better then everyone he's competed in the ring with, accomplishment wise. He never faced Flair, the only man ahead of him, so he's never lost to a more decorated wrestler. Ever.

Whether or not getting into the double digits in terms of world title reigns makes you a better wrestler is a different debate. Ultimately what makes a better pro-wrestler is if someone is willing to sell tickets doing what sells the most tickets, John Cena sells more tickets when he's booked to lose.

Cm Punk. Daniel Bryan. Edge. Randy Orton. Those four have been Cena's main foils, and all of them are multi-time World Champions. In the case of Edge and Orton, heels, they've won 11 and 12 respectively. This past feud with Orton aside, every feud Cena has had with both Edge and Orton ended with Cena victorious.

Winning a belt 14 times means that you had to have lost that belt at least 13 times, 14 in his case and he's definitely not back in the title picture anytime soon. Cena has been his own main foil, the crowd seems more content with seeing him lose than seeing the other guy win.

Again, think Mark Henry at Money In The Bank 2013. Henry created a tremendous angle, but the script was as it should have been. Henry tossed Cena around for a bit, but Cena adjusted, and Henry tapped out clean to the STF.

I don't want to make this conversation wander way off topic. I'm just going to say that Mark Henry had to fake a retirement because that was the only conceivable way he could get the crowd to stop cheering for him, and I won't focus on Mark Henry anymore in this debate.

Earthquake never achieved the success that Mark Henry did, and that's not saying much. Where in there is any implication that Earthquake would be doing anything but tapping to the STF, as every star, mid-carder, and jobber of his era has done?

Within the WWE, which isn't where this match is taking place.

CM Punk took five consecutive losses to Rey Mysterio, something a jobber might do. Later he defeated John Cena.

Daniel Bryan took a one move loss to Sheamus at Wrestlemania 28, something a jobber might do. Later he defeated John Cena.

Earthquake helped keep Hogan's image alive and lost to him at Summerslam, something a jobber might do. I can see him finally getting his due in this match.

 

[enviousdominous]

I'm not going to lie, I went into this match up with the mindset that Cena takes this first round match-up easily against Earthquake. Having said that, I was reading the thread to see if there were any posts that could legitimately sway my opinion that this match would go any different.

Are you sure you weren't just trying to reaffirm a predisposition of love for John Cena?

The exact points where it was confirmed in my mind was:

1.) "The only reason the crowd would pay money to watch John Cena wrestle in a TNA arena would be to watch him lose"

So why would TNA as a company make a bad business decision and have Cena lose here when they can continue to keep having those fans pay their money to keep watching Cena come close to losing, only to win until he runs into a more established guy?

Whether or not booking Cena to lose in TNA is a bad business decision is a topic for debate, we haven't concurred on that point so using it in an argument is invalid. You seem to be of the opinion that it wouldn't be a smart decision to book Earthquake as a winner in TNA. I think that as a big man he's capable of putting on a show that would draw for a TNA crowd, especially if he defeats someone who unto them is a pariah in John Cena.

The reason Cena's win against JBL at WM 21 was so big was because JBL was the heel that kept finding ways to win against guys like The Undertaker, Eddie Guerrero, and Booker T.

The reason that The Rocks win against Cena at Wrestlemania 28 was so huge was because the crowd wanted to see John Cena lose to The Rock. The crowd didn't care who was playing what role, the crowd didn't care what the typical continuity of a pro-wrestling storyline would dictate. They fucking hated John Cena, and they apparently haven't lightened up toward him.

It got to a point where you wanted to see JBL lose and lose in a big way, such as the biggest ppv in pro wrestling, to a big star, such as John Cena.

It got to a point where it didn't matter who beat him, John Cena is in that role now. He has a lot in common with JBL today, which includes his ability to put on an exciting match that doesn't require the efforts of a more over opponent.

Unless you are willing to put Earthquake in the final four of this region, having Earthquake pulling off an upset like this makes absolutely no sense.

Hey, I have no qualms about seeing Earthquake make it to the final four either. I agree that if he made it there it would be great for him to make it to the final two as well.

2.) "I'm under the impression that a TNA ring makes a huge difference."

Failed to sway me on this statement.

I didn't just plug that statement and then wander to a different topic. Please debate the points I made to validate the statement itself as opposed to just cherry picking the statement and letting your train of thought run away with wild assumptions.

While they are outside of the WWF/E ring, it still is inside the world of professional wrestling.

ECW was professional wrestling also, I know you remember how that place welcomed John Cena.

In a professional wrestling ring, John Cena is still a 14 world champion and is still one of the bigger draws in the business whether he's booked to win or lose.

So you agree that booking him to lose is still financially feasible.

Earthquake doesn't have those credentials and, again, unless you have Earthquake going deep in this tournament to make him a legit bonafide star in pro wrestling, then you're wasting money compared to the money that you could be making farther down the road in this tournament.

I don't think that Earthquake's ability to get over on the TNA crowd would depend on his success within this tournament. He is indeed going up against someone who by the book is almost always guaranteed a win, that kind of reputation hurts John Cena's chances more than they help them these days.

Those were the two main quotes that you said that sealed the deal for me.

Okay, those two quotes sealed the deal for you. Thus, every other quote was fallacious and you could very easily explain why. Please explain why my other points weren't worth considering when it comes to influencing someone like you to vote against John Cena.

But most of the fans that turned on him absolutely loved John Cena when he was a heel in the WWE.

He was exploiting a trend that had nothing to do with pro-wrestling, 8-mile had just come out and the WWE used Cena to milk off of it's fame.

It's a major reason that he turned face in the first place.

He turned face because it was already decided that it would happen long before the execution. Look at how he was booked when he first came into the WWE. There was no doubt on anyone's mind that he would make it to the top, even if his co-workers did a better job than he did.

He played the perfect heel in the ECW One Night Stand PPV and, yes I know that he lost that match. But, he lost because that was the big payoff for that feud. It hasn't reached that point where it's time for Cena to lose yet.

It was a big pay-off for the ECW crowd because they absolutely hated him. Tommy Dreamer would have had a better chance of walking away from an RVD match that night with a victory, John Cena didn't have a chance in Hell. The title was at stake, and he lost it. If John Cena loses to Bray Wyatt at Wrestlemania 30, you owe me a six pack.

I'd label him as the top heel in TNA because as you have said in this debate, the "TNA fans would react similarly to the ECW fans."

Funny, other people on here have expressly denied that TNA fans would react similarly to the ECW fans. I wouldn't label him a top heel in TNA, I'd label him a heel by default. He doesn't go out there and use heel tactics, the crowd is just sick and tired of looking at him unless he's losing.

That is the type of reaction that only some of the top heels get and other heels could only dream of getting.

Heels dream of using heel tactics to get the crowd to love the other guy more. John Cena, a face, can make the crowd love a guy like Luke Harper by virtue of competing against him. John Cena would get a reaction that heels dream of getting, but not by acting like a heel.

If people are paying to watch you get beat instead of the other person winning, that means you are a great heel in a classic use of the term.

I agree completely.

Heels have to win to make the crowd hate them more and more. I'll say I'm going with Cena until if/when he meets up with Sting. Then, the argument for a TNA ring would have a huge impact on the result. Not now.

My argument was that any ring beyond a WWE ring makes a difference because WWE management decide what happens in a WWE ring. If the WWE fans had their way, which they seem to be getting slowly but surely these days, John Cena would be losing a lot more encounters. Judging by the average crowd reaction to a John Cena match; he can't possibly make them hate him any more, not even by winning a few and then losing later.

I believe those fans want to see a good story with their favorite wrestler getting over at the end of the day whether he's a face or a heel. If there's no favorite in the story, then they'll want to see a story that makes sense at the end of the day.

As I've already explained. The inevitable favorite in a John Cena match is whoever he might be facing. I don't have to piece together a series of points to suppose as much, I can just watch when RAW was in The Bronx and Cena couldn't catch a break.

Normally, that results in the good guy going over the bad guy. Either way, there is nothing wrong with delaying what the fans want for a good payoff. Just look at Daniel Bryan for WM 30.

While I don't want to let this debate wander too far off course; Daniel Bryan didn't lose his way to the Wrestlemania 30 spot, and John Cena was one of the men he beat to get there. If you book Cena to get a series of wins, you're not just delaying what the fans want, you're denying them what they paid for.

So Cena's popularity in North America wouldn't get him over with TNA management? He's the most liked athlete according to Facebook why wouldn't TNA use that to help put more butts in the seats?

Right. I don't think that TNA is going to use Facebook as their model for deciding how to properly book matches. Cena's popularity as being someone who draws an insane amount of unintentional heat from the crowd would easily get him a spot in the TNA roster, and booking him to lose would make the most sense financially.

I'm not saying put the belt on Cena from the time he steps foot in a TNA ring, but having him lose to Earthquake in the first round of a big-time tournament is just not that realistic. The more often you have Cena wrestle, the more people you have watching your product.

So, have him wrestle a grudge match on the side in some other fantasy bout. Hell, let's set up a Cena league where we get to imagine how he'd fare against every other performer in history.

I'm not saying Cena has to lose every single match, I'm saying that in front of a TNA crowd his chances at winning are as good as when he came to ECW.

Again, Cena's role in front of the ECW fans was that of a heel. And his popularity in the WWE did indeed help him in front of the ECW fans.

John Cena's role in front of literally anybody is that of a guy who thinks he's great but the crowd has doubts that he fails to dispel. The crowd did love to hate John Cena, and he had to do the job because of that.

A less popular Cena doesn't generate the reaction that Cena got. Similar to what you said, you could have put just about anybody in RVD's position at One Night Stand but, you couldn't have Cena replaced and have the same type of feel to that match.

And that unique type of popularity is what will get Cena killed if he's not competing for the WWE. If he brings that same type of feel to TNA, which is inevitable because even since then his character is practically identical to what it was in 2006, they'll demand that he take a loss as well.

Cena is probably the ultimate definition of a company man. The reason he represents the WWE in everything he does is because he works for the WWE. It wouldn't be that far of a stretch to imagine that if he were to be a part of the TNA brand, everything he'd do then would be for the promotion of TNA. I don't believe Ken Anderson has completely shed the WWE stigma, as he still does the entrance in TNA that he was known for in the WWE.

You have to ask yourself if for John Cena's list of accomplishments, or lack thereof, prior to trying out for pro-wrestling would have allowed him to been booked as strongly if he followed his class-mates to TNA. You have a distinct advantage if you jump to a different company after having had modest success in the previous one, your image hasn't become a tired one and it can evolve to represent the new company. John Cena has been the poster child for the WWE since before his first world title reign, he won't be able to shake that kind of reputation.

And they will keep paying to watch Cena matches with the hope that he gets beat. And then Cena will win. They fans pay again, then Cena wins in the second round. This can go on and on to the point where whoever beats him in the tournament would go into the TNA Hall of Fame off of that match alone. But, that doesn't happen if Cena is eliminated early. Don't blow it this early by having Earthquake beat Cena then having a match where nobody is watching between Earthquake and Arn Anderson/Christian.

I don't think that the TNA fans consider John Cena to be a big enough name when it comes to their style to warrant an automatic HOF induction for beating him. Just like you and many other people on this forum are die-hard John Cena supporters in spite of the likely-hood that you may have to deal with an entire crowd that doesn't agree with you, I'm a die-hard fan of John Tenta the human being and Earthquake the pro-wrestler. I would love to see what kind of a match Earthquake would work with Christian.

 

[enviousdominous]

Three years in the future, snippet from a spam thread discussing the 2017 WZ tournament starting soon: "Remember that one year when someone had like 50 posts trying to get Earthquake past John Cena? LOL"

Pfft! Brain, please. I'm not just hacking out post after post of random thoughts, I'm granting a response to people who've challenged me for one. I'm sure that while your future friends are musing about how determined I was to respectfully respond to their arguments, they'll also note that I was worth the time of those who came not to independently promote their love of Cena but to debate me.

You've made your mark enviousdominous but we all know Quake has no chance here.

I'm where I am today thanks to many undeserved blessings of fate, not that I view Earthquake's chances in the same light. I'm just saying that I'm not crazy to believe a little.

You probably would have just been better off saying you met Earthquake and liked him personally so you want to give him a vote because of you personal admiration.

I most certainly would not have been better off if I used that as a tactic in this debate, It's just a hunch of mine that most of the people on here won't be swayed with what you imagine is a personal mission to make more people love John Tenta the human being. I don't think that Earthquake should move on just because the man behind the gimmick made a good impression on me, I've only brought that up when it was warranted by someone else's argument.

That would have been reasonable, but that probably wouldn't have given you what you wanted.

It would not have been reasonable to try to convince anyone who hasn't met John Tenta to just take my word for it. I haven't ever met John Cena, not that I'm desperate for that to happen. Either way, it would be unfair for me to make this a comparison of character references when for all I know John Cena is just as virtuous as John Tenta was.

I have a feeling you're enjoying taking on the world in this thread even though you know it's a lost cause. Nothing wrong with that if that's how you like to pass the time but we all (probably including you) know Cena should win and is going to win.

Bro, I'm not looking at this as though I'm taking on the world. I'm more down to Earth than that, trust me. I will admit that the posters on this forum have helped change my perspective on the average John Cena fan. While it's not making me back down on my position, I consider that to be a huge plus even if it's only for me in regard to having a more enlightened perspective.

Earthquake never did anything significant as a singles wrestler outside the program with Hogan in 1990.

So it's about damn time he do something significant and beat John Cena.

The Natural Disasters were a decent tag team but that's not quite enough to go over one of the best ever. I'm not really looking to join your debate (but I probably will if you want me to). I just wanted to get my post in as I'm trying to participate in every match, even the obvious ones.

The Natural Disasters were an amazing tag team, they were able to win the crowd before they won the belts. If it doesn't suit you to join the debate, please don't waste your time. Please don't debate me simply on my account, present an argument if it's something you don't mind doing.

I appreciate your dedication to this tournament, I'm sure everyone else does as well. Thank you for offering your two cents, ciao.

 

[Danger Burger]

I think most you guys are being plenty harsh with ED here. Fact is, this is the TNA region. That puts Cena at a HUGE disadvantage, undeniably.

Let me break it down:

1) TNA make near consistently terrible decisions.

2) Vince Russo works for TNA

Ergo 3) TNA are just crazy enough to job out Cena to Tenta in the opening rounds of a tournament that could make them crazy amounts of money.

Alternatively:

1)TNA fans don't like John Cena.

2)TNA wouldn't see the advantage of having a guy with over 22 million facebook followers. For those of you at home, thats 20 times more likes than Impact Wrestling has on facebook.

3) TNA fans would hate to have an influx of 22million fans, putting them in the minority, so they would boo the hell out of Cena (Cena could never deal with people booing him right?).

4) Dixie would give the people what they want, Cena loses.

The region makes a huge difference here. TNA don't know how to make money. They CAN'T make money. It would be physically impossible for Cena to go over. Tenta for TNA champion.

Vote Cena.

 

[enviousdominous]

That's the only way Earthquake is going over.

Your response is in reference to an answer I had for an argument made by someone else. I don't think anybody wants your help making their argument work for them.

You think that the only way Earthquake could defeat Cena is if the TNA ring had magic powers? The ECW ring didn't have magic powers, how in the fuck did Cena lose that one? This relates to the notion that John Cena earned his accolades within the WWE through magic powers, vested in him by an absolutely enamored management staff. The crowd seems to have a different take on his character.

Yeeeeah, this is pretty well in hand. Have you seen the vote?

Have you seen that more than one person voted for John Tenta? I'm pretty sure that you declared that impossible a few days ago.

No, but he's spent plenty of time on a forum filled with them. Sorry, KJ and IDR.

Is Rayne a TNA fan?

Did he stay at a Holiday Inn Express too? Dude, if it bothers me that you speak on behalf of someone else then I imagine it might bother them as well. This forum isn't the epicenter of pro-wrestling knowledge.

Then wouldn't it make sense that the higher caliber the match, and higher ranked the opponent, the bigger audience?

Have you seen how high I apparently regard the abilities of Earthquake?

Tenta's tumor lump probably weigh as much as Shark Boy.

I need to make a point in regard to this because monsters like you need to be told off from time to time, I apologize to anyone who isn't you that might be bothered with what I'm about to say.

We're debating who would win in a match between John Cena and Earthquake under TNA rules and this guy wants to not only use the fact that John Tenta suffered and died during his second bout with cancer as a reference, but he wants to mock that event.

I have a friend stationed at Mildenhall Royal Air Force Base, his son who friends of his like myself know as Tomtom has leukemia and he doesn't have very much chance of making it to age 5. Tomtom was allowed to go on a ride along with Security Forces and had the time of his life, I coordinated this event because that kid has more reason to be on this Earth than people like you and I was given an achievement medal for my effort.

I realize that bringing that up only invites a pathetic monster like yourself to start picking away the seriousness of the subject of a terminal illness. I just want you to know that if you really wanted to pull this debate into a world where it doesn't belong even if it means completely annihilating whatever shred of character you may have had left, mission accomplished.

Where exactly are you getting this idea Cena isn't wanted? Because he seems to be winning the vote of wrestling fans pretty handily.

Check the crowd reaction when he wrestles a match, and while you're at it go fuck yourself. I'm putting you on ignore because nobody deserves to feel the kind of grief that someone like you insists on inspiring.

 

[enviousdominous]

I think most you guys are being plenty harsh with ED here. Fact is, this is the TNA region. That puts Cena at a HUGE disadvantage, undeniably.

It's very nice to know that one of the most profoundly disputed points I've made makes sense to someone else. I'm sensing the faint stench of sarcasm, but I'll hold my nose and read on.

Let me break it down:

Please do.

1) TNA make near consistently terrible decisions.

I agree. I think that the main reason why they've failed is because they took a show that managed to compete at all because of the quality of its wrestling matches, and warped it to become something that looks vaguely like what might pass for WWE B-material. The direction of the show may have changed for worse, the expectations of the fans never changed.

Perhaps TNA might learn from their mistake and choose not to book Cena in a way that's indicative of how he's typically booked in the WWE, winning in spite of losing the crowd I mean.

2) Vince Russo works for TNA

I think the fact that this is a regular old match under normal TNA rules makes this match seem Russo-proof. I'm not a Russo hater, but I'm probably just as critical of him as you are. I think that even Russo could see the viability of pushing Earthquake to win.

Ergo 3) TNA are just crazy enough to job out Cena to Tenta in the opening rounds of a tournament that could make them crazy amounts of money.

Or smart enough to do that, depends on how you feel about making money I suppose.

Alternatively:

DAMMIT!! You were doing such a good job being on my side.

1)TNA fans don't like John Cena.

Score one more for the interloper. WOOT!!

2)TNA wouldn't see the advantage of having a guy with over 22 million facebook followers. For those of you at home, thats 20 times more likes than Impact Wrestling has on facebook.

Impact Wrestling doesn't push six hours of televised programming out every week. Impact Wrestling can't afford to be as prolific as the WWE, the WWE can piss away 20 times the net worth of TNA just on marketing alone. I can pay a company in the Philippines a hundred dollars to drum up a thousand Twitter followers on my behalf. The crowd typically dictates the expectation of the match that's happening in front of it.

3) TNA fans would hate to have an influx of 22million fans, putting them in the minority, so they would boo the hell out of Cena (Cena could never deal with people booing him right?).

This is in reference to point 2, not really deserving to be it's own point. I never once suggested that Cena can't deal with a booing crowd and I would never suggest something like that. John Cena has never flipped off a hostile crowd or let their jeers compromise the flow of his performance, I imagine that losing because it's what the crowd demands isn't an impossibility for him as long as he gets to lose his way.

4) Dixie would give the people what they want, Cena loses.

Dixie would most certainly take credit if whatever happened had worked, and avoid all blame if it didn't work. The crowd would dictate what they want, and a smart booker would honor that.

The region makes a huge difference here. TNA don't know how to make money. They CAN'T make money. It would be physically impossible for Cena to go over. Tenta for TNA champion.

I think they could make a lot of money if they make a mockery out of someone who was so over in a competitor's ring by having them lose to a more over performer.

Vote

Way ahead of you, one more vote for Earthquake.

Cena

I already clicked the button.

 

[Con T.]

Your response is in reference to an answer I had for an argument made by someone else. I don't think anybody wants your help making their argument work for them.

I'm pretty sure he's cool with it.

You think that the only way Earthquake could defeat Cena is if the TNA ring had magic powers? The ECW ring didn't have magic powers, how in the fuck did Cena lose that one? This relates to the notion that John Cena earned his accolades within the WWE through magic powers, vested in him by an absolutely enamored management staff. The crowd seems to have a different take on his character.

TNA crowd =/= ECW crowd.

Also, the wrestler who beat John Cena that night, RVD, is better than Earthquake, has more accolades, and is/was more popular.

Have you seen that more than one person voted for John Tenta? I'm pretty sure that you declared that impossible a few days ago.

Your allies are known trolls. Congrats.

Did he stay at a Holiday Inn Express too? Dude, if it bothers me that you speak on behalf of someone else then I imagine it might bother them as well. This forum isn't the epicenter of pro-wrestling knowledge.

Really, a joke from a commercial?

Have you seen how high I apparently regard the abilities of Earthquake?

And what I'm telling you is that your regard isn't based in reality. Not one single iota.

I need to make a point in regard to this because monsters like you need to be told off from time to time, I apologize to anyone who isn't you that might be bothered with what I'm about to say.

We're debating who would win in a match between John Cena and Earthquake under TNA rules and this guy wants to not only use the fact that John Tenta suffered and died during his second bout with cancer as a reference, but he wants to mock that event.

I have a friend stationed at Mildenhall Royal Air Force Base, his son who friends of his like myself know as Tomtom has leukemia and he doesn't have very much chance of making it to age 5. Tomtom was allowed to go on a ride along with Security Forces and had the time of his life, I coordinated this event because that kid has more reason to be on this Earth than people like you and I was given an achievement medal for my effort.

I realize that bringing that up only invites a pathetic monster like yourself to start picking away the seriousness of the subject of a terminal illness. I just want you to know that if you really wanted to pull this debate into a world where it doesn't belong even if it means completely annihilating whatever shred of character you may have had left, mission accomplished.

Check the crowd reaction when he wrestles a match, and while you're at it go fuck yourself. I'm putting you on ignore because nobody deserves to feel the kind of grief that someone like you insists on inspiring.

But I thought you were inspired to debate on Earthquake's behalf!

 

[#tamale]

Compare the crowd reaction to an El Santo match literally anywhere in Mexico, and the crowd reaction to a John Cena match in Chicago or Pittsburgh. John Cena doesn't enjoy home field advantage just because he's in the US, the crowd in Boston has booed him before.



Did you see John Cena perform at One Night Stand? Those weren't a bunch of imported Portuguese fans, those were Americans.


If the buy-rate for Wrestlemania 29 is any indicator, then it's not best for business to have John Cena defeat a returning superstar. No matter what Earthquake might do in terms of heel tactics, he wouldn't be able to get the crowd to turn on him.

Crowd reactions mean fuck all when you generate over 100 million dollars of revenue per year for the WWE. That's what a DRAW is. That's what John Cena does. That's why if he were in TNA, they would make sure he would win every match. Even over a mid-card giant like Earthquake.

Wrestlemania 29 is the highest grossest WWE event in it's history. That had Cena defeating The Rock for the WWE Championship.

 

[Dirk]

Umm. Bruno Sammartino? That guy never lost the crowd.

Yes, BUT Cena wrestles a LOT more in a six months than Sammartino did in a year. The problem isn't with Cena, but with the booking he gets AND the refusal to change the character up a bit.

Backstage pull aside, Creative ultimately pulls the strings. The problem is saturation, not Cena.

ECW fans were diehard, TNA fans are kinda indifferent.

 

[LSN80]

Do you know why he doesn't have lasting popularity? John Cena has long out-waited his welcome for the average pro-wrestling fan. He's been around so long trying to push the same tired image that his image is a parody of how a pro-wrestler is expected to present himself. He makes every attempt to produce the same act every show and for that he's rendered himself as looking so ridiculous that he's virtually critic proof. His image is popular because it employs shameless pop-culture aesthetics that have nothing to do with what it takes to sell a pro-wrestling match. He's critic proof, but in a bad way. He's timeless, but in an even worse way. He's impossible to ignore, but in the worst possible way.

All this shows is an extreme bias against Cena, and a total lock of understanding for the legacy he's created.

And the men I compared him to are Austin, Hogan, and Rock. To say he doesn't have the sustainability of popularity as those three isn't an insult, it's a compliment. It puts him in an elite class that few others belong to.

John Cena draws bigger losing championships than he does winning them. The belt inevitably has to end up on his waist because otherwise his character makes no sense on tv.

His character has made perfect sense in plenty of feuds, as it is right now with the Wyatt's. Did you watch Raw last night and hear the eruption for Cena as he unmasked and took the Wyatt's out 3 on 1?

But clearly, it's a man who's lost the crowd.

Earthquake didn't come into the business with the full support of the people who ran the business, he had to claw his way to whatever status he could get. This was a time well after the WWF put all of it's stock in Hogan, and it was Hogan that chose Earthquake to make him look good.

Earthquake was one of many that made Hogan look good, and once Hogan was done with him, it was bye bye main event scene.

So you admit that you only listed those names because including bigger names would invalidate your point.

Exactly the opposite. Read next time, cochise. The reason that I omitted bigger names is because they're above Earthquake's status. As I said, Edge is an 11 time champion, Orton a 12. How does a one-time tag team champion fit with the likes of Orton and Edge?

He doesn't, hence their omission.

They were a very over tag team even though they were supposed to be playing the part of heels. The crowd was against them, and they changed their tune because of the talent that tag team displayed. The crowd never hated Earthquake when they were supposed to like him, unlike Cena.

The crowd has never hated Cena, save for one match at One Night Stand in 2006 against RVD. Portions of the crowd have, but Cena has never been "hated by the crowd." He gets mixed reactions. That hardly equates to hated.

John Cena's opponents are often monster heels, and most of them end up getting cheered by the crowd.

Even if you're right, which you're not, what happens when Cena faces monster heels? He wins. He faced the undefeated Umaga in 2007, and beat him at back to back PPV's. 2007 Great Khali? Undefeated in single's matches, and not only did Cena beat him twice, he made him tap out.

And this was the guy(Khali) who beat Undertaker clean in his PPV debut. Cena made him tap out. Forget the Khali of today, he was a monster in 2007.

Earthquake wouldn't be able to be billed as a monster heel in this match, no matter what he did to change the crowd's mind they would pick him as their favorite to win.

This makes no sense, in a one-off match. He would be booked as he was in his prime as a single's wrestler, which is as a monster heel. Meaning he would lose to Cena.

A bigger test of your abilities as a pro-wrestler is whether or not you can use your image to draw big numbers in another promotion. The only way I see John Cena drawing comparably to how he draws in the WWE is if he's booked to lose, that's how the WWE makes more money for their cards.

Again, this makes zero sense. Did Earthquake draw big numbers in another promotion? Nope. We know Cena can draw big numbers, because he has for the WWE.

And the biggest way Cena draws for TNA is simple: The way he has for WWE, as the face of the company and the man who only loses to main event talent. Earthquake was not among, or close to being, consistent main event talent, nor did he beat main event talent.

Cena's been main event talent and beating main event talent for 10 years. In any company, it's advantage, Cena.

I don't think that this match would only last for what you apparently imagine would be two and a half minutes, I think the crowd would demand refunds if that happened. I see John Cena in TNA as being like Dick the Bruiser in the WWF. John Cena is an obnoxious version of a WWE guy no matter where he works, he's even more toxic if he presents himself to TNA.

The problem with this is it's how you see it, not how the wrestling world does. You don't like Cena, you find him obnoxious and a parody, that's fine. But the experts, the ones who determine pushes and talent, have decided on Cena as the guy. The guy in the biggest wrestling promotion in the world.

TNA wouldn't squander away John Cena, and the enormous potential to challenge WWE in the ratings by having him lose. He'ld challenge Magnus to a match, have a back-and-forth match where he makes Magnus look like a million bucks. See Cesaro, Antonio, or Sandow, Damien for examples. But ultimately, with said wrestler, Cena goes over.

If the crowd gets what they want, I predict Earthquake managing to pull out a win.

You're under this misguided opinion that the crowd hates Cena. They don't. Portions of them do, but equal portions adore him. Earthquake, in his prime, was a heel. He would be booed. He would fight Cena hard. Cena would make him look better then he ever looked before, and Cena would make him tap out.

John Cena lost his Money in the Bank cash-in by count-out on the one thousandth episode of Monday Night Raw. I think there was more on the line that night than there is for this encounter.

If you can't get your history right, don't try and use it as example. Cena won the MITB match against Punk, by disqualification when Big Show interfered. There was no count-out in play. Don't make crap up to justify a sad and silly argument.

So, given that swing in how the match ended, you're saying Cena wins by DQ? Works for me, he still moves on.

I think there was more on the line that night than there is for this encounter.

This is a tournament to crown the greatest professional wrestler of all-time. That holds more significance then a title.

So now you're predicting that this will indeed result in a count-out finish.

I predicted nothing of the sort, now you're just being recalcitrant. I said "if," not "it will". There's a big difference, and perhaps a grammar lesson would be of help to you before you post more.

Earthquake has a much better record winning those matches than John Cena does.

Which is irrelevant, because I've already stated how this script goes, with multiple examples. The same as any John Cena match vs. a monster heel. Cena gets taken down a bit, he adjusts, and said heel is either laying on his back after an AA for the 1-2-3, or they're tapping. That's it. There is no other script in a Cena vs. monster heel match.

You obviously aren't a very big fan of TNA. I'm sure that TNA fans don't consider themselves to be a lower tier of pro-wrestling fan.

I like TNA, and I never insulted their fans. That's you, once again, reading into things and drawing your own conclusions. I said that TNA was WWE, with "less talent and poorer booking."

TNA fans that I've met consider their favored product to be better than the WWE precisely because a guy like John Cena can be allowed to own the WWE.

How nice for you. That doesn't change the fact that Cena would win this match.

Cena would be a God-send for TNA, if he was booked to lose. When presented to a jeering crowd, it makes sense for John Cena to play to their whims.

And your proof of this being a jeering crowd is what? That you say so? Cena is a God-send to TNA if he's the face of the company. How does someone become said face? By winning.

If you really want to speculate on things like that, put a little more detail into why you came to that kind of conclusion. It's not my burden to explain your fantasies for you.

Do you realize how foolish you sound? You claim to be a fan of the product, but you don't even recognize Abyss' signature match. The point is, Earthquake would be lower on the card then a John Cena. While Cena would be main eventing(and winning), Earthquake would either be a special attraction like the example I gave with Abyss, or fighting a Ken Anderson or Davey Richards. Fine talents, but not sustainable main-event guys.

And Earthquake would lose to them as well. What you don't grasp is that Earthquake didn't have success as a single's wrestler. Cena has had more success then anyone but Ric freaking Flair. It's as lopsided a match-up as they come, no matter how you want to present your argument.

Whether or not getting into the double digits in terms of world title reigns makes you a better wrestler is a different debate.

In the world of kayfabe, it absolutely makes you a better wrestler. The best wrestlers compete for titles, and moreso, when they win clean like Cena did in all 14 of his victories, it's an even bigger stand to reason that he's a better wrestler.

Ultimately what makes a better pro-wrestler is if someone is willing to sell tickets doing what sells the most tickets, John Cena sells more tickets when he's booked to lose.

So Summerslam 2013 and Money In the Bank 2011 outsold Wrestlemania 22, 23, and 29?

Money In The Bank 2011- 195,000 buys. Cena loses.
Summerslam 2013- 296,000 buys. Cena loses.

Wrestlemania 22-975,000 buys. Cena wins.
Wrestlemania 23- 1,250,000 buys. Cena wins.
Wrestlemania 29- 1,048,000 buys. Cena wins.
I picked these PPV's in particular because people knew in advance that Cena was main-eventing them. And yet, the numbers don't lie, Cena sold more tickets when booked to win then he did when booked to lose.

And as I said before, it also shows Cena's sustainability. Because he was able to continue to draw more at WM 29 then he did 7 years earlier at WM 22, and he drew comparably to WM 23. Trying to argue away Cena as the biggest reason for those buys is silly: He's the face of the company.

Winning a belt 14 times means that you had to have lost that belt at least 13 times, 14 in his case and he's definitely not back in the title picture anytime soon.

So discount Ric Flair because he is a sixteen time champion while you're at it, because he lost the belt sixteen times. Every big champion loses the belt and then regains it, and Cena has had two reigns that were longer then any of Rock's. Longer then any of Austin's. Longer then any of HHH's.

Cena has won far more then he's lost, and his losses have been few and far between, against elite talent, or with interference or a MITB cash-in. Bryan beat him clean, Punk semi-clean. That's it in single's matches.

Cena has been his own main foil, the crowd seems more content with seeing him lose than seeing the other guy win.

Like they did with RVD at ONS 2006? Punk at MITB 2011? Or Bryan at Summerslam 2013? Clearly, the crowd wasn't invested whatsoever in RVD, Punk, or Bryan, they just wanted to see Cena lose. Once again, you're making rediculous statements that I'm dismissing with fact.

I don't want to make this conversation wander way off topic. I'm just going to say that Mark Henry had to fake a retirement because that was the only conceivable way he could get the crowd to stop cheering for him, and I won't focus on Mark Henry anymore in this debate.

It's quite relevant, because Earthquake would present a Henry-esque challenge. Again, it was kayfabe. And Henry had already accomplished more then Earthquake by winning the WHC off of Orton in 2011, and establishing the Hall of Pain gimmick. When he returned from injury and Cena had finished off Ryback, Henry was his next challenger. A man with a greater resume then Earthquake, a monster heel, challenging Cena.

CM Punk took five consecutive losses to Rey Mysterio, something a jobber might do. Later he defeated John Cena.

If he did, which I doubt, it was before he was in his prime. When did this happen? If anything, Punk has more wins over Rey then vice versa.

Daniel Bryan took a one move loss to Sheamus at Wrestlemania 28, something a jobber might do. Later he defeated John Cena.

But you and I both know that the story of the match wasn't Bryan "the jobber", it was Bryan unfocused. Again, not yet in his prime. When he beat Cena, he was in his prime.

Earthquake helped keep Hogan's image alive and lost to him at Summerslam, something a jobber might do. I can see him finally getting his due in this match.

The difference is, once Bryan took that loss, he made more of himself. Earthquake did the opposite. He achieved no further success as a single's wrestler. If Punk indeed did lose to Mysterio five straight times, (which I'm calling B.S. on), he made more of himself after. Earthquake did no such thing to indicate future success.

And yes, he would get his due. Submitting to Cena in the STF, or having his shoulders pinned to the mat after the 1-2-3.

 

[Con T.]

Earthquake unlike John Cena never ruined other's careers with backstage politics.

Hey, remember that time you voted Kevin Nash over Raven?

Because I do. You know who had a heavy hand in politics in WCW?

If you're going to be a bitch, you could at least be a consistent one.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Earthquake unlike John Cena never ruined other's careers with backstage politics.

Then don't vote Hogan, Nash, Austin, HBK, or pretty much anyone from the modern era who's done anything.

 

[nightmare]

Nobody suggested that the TNA ring has magic powers.

You sure have tried to imply it does. This bracket could be in Japan, Nazi Germany or the backyard of your grandmother's house for all I care. Outcome is still the same. Cena wins. Earthquake loses.

The outcome of this match hasn't been determined yet.

By how big of a margin does Cena have to win by before you admit defeat? Unless you are counting on 50 other people to magically agree with your ignorant point of view, then this one is already wrapped up.

You already admitted that you haven't watched TNA in a long time, you don't have an informed opinion regarding the mindset of their fan-base.

I watched pretty solid amounts before Aces & 8's & recently have kept up a bit because they have some good things going. Plus there is plenty to be gained from the posters here who are die-hard TNA fans. We all seem to agree your 'informed opinions' are shit, regardless of our company preference.

If they want to make money, it most definitely means that. Cena draws bigger numbers when he's booked to lose.

The big money is in the chance to see a legend of today face the biggest legends in history. Even TNA would know that more money would be made from Cena moving on to face one of those legends instead of Earthquake. The big draw for this match is to see Cena lift Tenta for the AA in a feat of strength. That will happen & then Cena moves on to face someone of actual merit.

No, you should have read the name of this thread. If that's too much trouble, it clearly says John Cena vs Earthquake. Trust me.

Well since it is Earthquake & not my more amusing gimmick name- he is really screwed here then. 0 fucks are given about Earthquake. The TNA fans would get a kick out of chanting "Golga Sucks" though- just for the lulz.

I don't think you're mentally capable of doing that.

I cant really trust your judge of mental capacity. It is clear you are batshit crazy.

I rest my case.

This is what we all have been hoping you would do.

If you spent less time fighting a useless cause & more time outside- you may find a nice lady who shares your crazy point of view & has Earthquake tattooed on her ass. If you are really lucky she will have a beard & you could even walk down the aisle dressed as the Natural Disasters. Then your little fantasy world will finally be complete.

 

[ocekit]

His image is popular because it employs shameless pop-culture aesthetics that have nothing to do with what it takes to sell a pro-wrestling match.

The entire wrestling industry employs shameless pop-culture aesthetics. "Hulk" Hogan, for example. If it works, then I don't see what the big deal is.

The crowd never hated Earthquake when they were supposed to like him, unlike Cena.

You should also consider that it wasn't nearly as common to boo faces and cheer heels back then. It happened, but not as much as it happens today. The crowd cheered the Natural Disasters because they separated from Jimmy Hart after he screwed them over. People love when wrestlers turn on their jerkass managers.

Earthquake wouldn't be able to be billed as a monster heel in this match, no matter what he did to change the crowd's mind they would pick him as their favorite to win.

Earthquake in his prime was a monster heel, and would likely be booked as a monster heel again. John Cena in his prime wasn't getting stale, he was getting over.

The only way I see John Cena drawing comparably to how he draws in the WWE is if he's booked to lose, that's how the WWE makes more money for their cards.

Unless you're a complete jobber, you can't really be booked to lose until after you've had a few wins under your belt.

Good grief, for the last time. I never said that this is a Sumo wrestling match. I was noting how John Tenta's record in Sumo is a significant accomplishment that got him noticed by the top brass of NJPW. John Cena wouldn't have gotten a second look from them for having failed to achieve modest success in the world of professional body-building.

This whole issue is irrelevant. How you get into the professional wrestling business isn't important. It's what you do when you finally get there that matters.

If the crowd gets what they want, I predict Earthquake managing to pull out a win.

John Cena's a bigger name than Earthquake, and they'd make more money if they booked him to go further in the tournament against bigger names. Kayfabe-wise, he's in better shape and has better conditioning than Earthquake. A prime Cena isn't a "worn-out," "stale" character. A prime Cena beats a prime Earthquake.

 

[Franchize1990]

Are you sure you weren't just trying to reaffirm a predisposition of love for John Cena?

Positive.

Whether or not booking Cena to lose in TNA is a bad business decision is a topic for debate, we haven't concurred on that point so using it in an argument is invalid. You seem to be of the opinion that it wouldn't be a smart decision to book Earthquake as a winner in TNA. I think that as a big man he's capable of putting on a show that would draw for a TNA crowd, especially if he defeats someone who unto them is a pariah in John Cena.

I never said that Earthquake couldn't be a winner in TNA. I am, however, of the opinion that it would not be a good booking decision to book Earthquake over Cena in the first round of a TNA tournament if this was each of their first match within the company. If TNA was to have him beat Cena, then have him get beat by the likes of Christian/Arn Anderson in the next round, then the majority of the fans wouldn't be as interested in paying for the match.

The reason that The Rocks win against Cena at Wrestlemania 28 was so huge was because the crowd wanted to see John Cena lose to The Rock. The crowd didn't care who was playing what role, the crowd didn't care what the typical continuity of a pro-wrestling storyline would dictate. They fucking hated John Cena, and they apparently haven't lightened up toward him.

The reason his win (reaction wise) was as big as it is was due to the fact that the majority opinion was that Cena was going over The Rock at WrestleMania 28 as the official passing of the torch. The "Let's go Cena!/Cena sucks!" chants were just as split down the middle as they are during a normal episode of Monday Night Raw.

It got to a point where it didn't matter who beat him, John Cena is in that role now. He has a lot in common with JBL today, which includes his ability to put on an exciting match that doesn't require the efforts of a more over opponent.

But if you give the fans what they paid for all of the time, then Cena goes from that point to where beating Cena is a big deal to the point where beating him is like beating Chris Jericho. It should mean more to beat the first ever WWE Undisputed World Champion but, it doesn't. Cean losing to Earthquake is the beginning of that process. And while TNA would love nothing more than to make the WWE poster boy a jobber, a track record and a good business sense have proven otherwise.

Hey, I have no qualms about seeing Earthquake make it to the final four either. I agree that if he made it there it would be great for him to make it to the final two as well.

And if Earthquake can get there, I also don't see any problem with putting him over Cena. Key words: If he can get there. Fact is, I don't believe that he's getting anywhere near that point.

I didn't just plug that statement and then wander to a different topic. Please debate the points I made to validate the statement itself as opposed to just cherry picking the statement and letting your train of thought run away with wild assumptions.

I did. I went on to talk about how I didn't believe a TNA ring made the world of difference when it comes to a match like this. You broke up my statement and the following explanation into a few different quotes.

ECW was professional wrestling also, I know you remember how that place welcomed John Cena.

Sure do. Big fight feel. Fans are passionate about their guy and absolutely couldn't stand the top guy in the WWE. Why not have the WWE's number one guy go there to get beat for the biggest prize in the WWE and send the fans home happy? That's smart booking. There are a couple of differences between the ECW deal and the TNA match.

• Big Fight Feel
  
  That match had the feel of ECW vs WWE. Arguably one of the faces of a promotion, a decorated champion when you combine his reigns in ECW and WWE at that time, and one world title victory from becoming WWE's 7th Grand Slam Champion (A feat that John Cena will probably never get to accomplish) Vs. The face of the number one promotion in the professional wrestling world (in terms of a money standpoint since quality is a subjective matter), a man who has held the belt for just as long as anybody for the last 16 years, and he represents the company that ran ECW off of the wrestling map.
  
  Now take that last part of the previous match up and put it up against a man like Earthquake, who only held a tag team title for a major promotion for 85 days or so and the match doesn't feel as big as it did when RVD was a part of it.
  
  
• Fans are passionate about "their" guy
  
  ECW is considered by some to be the home of Rob Van Dam. Sure he may have moved on to a bigger and better promotion after ECW closed its doors but, that's where RVD was born so to speak. So, when ECW got to host a couple reunion shows, the prodigal son got to come back home for a night and relive the good ol days. Earthquake was not a TNA guy, didn't have the following like RVD did, and if the fans are going to get behind him (Save for a deep run in this tourney), it's not going to be against John Cena.
  

So you agree that booking him to lose is still financially feasible.

Yes, I agree that booking Cena to lose is a financially feasible move. But to Earthquake? Disagree to the fullest if you're not going to make a mega star out of him.

I don't think that Earthquake's ability to get over on the TNA crowd would depend on his success within this tournament. He is indeed going up against someone who by the book is almost always guaranteed a win, that kind of reputation hurts John Cena's chances more than they help them these days.

What makes Earthquake so special, other than that you're a die-hard fan of his, that gives him the right to be one of the very few exceptions that get the possibility to beat Cena?

Okay, those two quotes sealed the deal for you. Thus, every other quote was fallacious and you could very easily explain why. Please explain why my other points weren't worth considering when it comes to influencing someone like you to vote against John Cena.

Because with those two quotes, Cena beating Earthquake not only became what I wanted to see happen but, what would be the best possible business situation in this match up.

He was exploiting a trend that had nothing to do with pro-wrestling, 8-mile had just come out and the WWE used Cena to milk off of it's fame.

He was being a super extended version of himself when he was a rapper. It was something that he did well and was something that established a connection with the fans. He's able to change his character, it's just that his current persona makes the company he's working for the most money.

He turned face because it was already decided that it would happen long before the execution. Look at how he was booked when he first came into the WWE. There was no doubt on anyone's mind that he would make it to the top, even if his co-workers did a better job than he did.

Meaning that there was something that WWE management saw in Cena. He must have something that TNA management would love to use besides having him jobbing out to Earthquake in each wrestler's TNA debut.

It was a big pay-off for the ECW crowd because they absolutely hated him. Tommy Dreamer would have had a better chance of walking away from an RVD match that night with a victory, John Cena didn't have a chance in Hell. The title was at stake, and he lost it. If John Cena loses to Bray Wyatt at Wrestlemania 30, you owe me a six pack.

You've got a deal. Tommy Dreamer may have had a better chance of walking out with a win but, it wouldn't have been the same reaction once the match was over. Also, if Cena loses to Wyatt it won't be because that's what the fans want. That moment is being saved for Daniel Bryan beating Triple H, Orton, and Batista. It'll be because WWE management sees something in the Bray Wyatt character that they can make into a superstar and make money off of.

Funny, other people on here have expressly denied that TNA fans would react similarly to the ECW fans. I wouldn't label him a top heel in TNA, I'd label him a heel by default. He doesn't go out there and use heel tactics, the crowd is just sick and tired of looking at him unless he's losing.

I'm not basing that quote off of what the other posters said about the difference between the TNA and ECW fanbase. Whether that's true or not is a different debate. I'm basing that quote off of what you posted. If the fans were to act similarly like an ECW crowd, then Cena is your top heel in the company. If the amount of boos that Cena reacts without using heel tactics is able to be top level heel quality, then imagine him walking into TNA and using heel tactics to generate even more jeers.

Heels dream of using heel tactics to get the crowd to love the other guy more.

Which Cena used at One Night Stand

John Cena, a face, can make the crowd love a guy like Luke Harper by virtue of competing against him. John Cena would get a reaction that heels dream of getting, but not by acting like a heel.

He acts more like a tweener if you believe in the term. He does what he feels is right and likes what he sees when he looks in the mirror. If you love him for it, great. If you hate his guts for it, then that's fine with him too. He's not going to try and reshape his image in order to please them.

My argument was that any ring beyond a WWE ring makes a difference because WWE management decide what happens in a WWE ring. If the WWE fans had their way, which they seem to be getting slowly but surely these days, John Cena would be losing a lot more encounters. Judging by the average crowd reaction to a John Cena match; he can't possibly make them hate him any more, not even by winning a few and then losing later.

If one fan is still cheering for John Cena, than he could make them hate just a little bit more. And I'd like to think about 60 to 65 percent of the crowd is pro-Cena. Problem is the other 35-40 percent are the louder ones in the arena.

As I've already explained. The inevitable favorite in a John Cena match is whoever he might be facing. I don't have to piece together a series of points to suppose as much, I can just watch when RAW was in The Bronx and Cena couldn't catch a break.

And Cena plays well into wherever he goes. Whether it's the way he carries himself during a match or some of the subtle actions that he changes from venue to venue. That's why I have a hard time seeing why you would have a hard time believing that Cena couldn't be a good heel in another company if they asked him to play that role.

While I don't want to let this debate wander too far off course; Daniel Bryan didn't lose his way to the Wrestlemania 30 spot, and John Cena was one of the men he beat to get there. If you book Cena to get a series of wins, you're not just delaying what the fans want, you're denying them what they paid for.

Bryan sure as heck didn't win his way into that spot either. he didn't win the rumble, the chamber match or, correct me if I'm wrong, any matches via pinfall or submission in about 4 or 5 weeks now. It is delaying what the fans want for a bigger payoff in the long run. If TNA management were to cave into the fans demand to have Cena lose so early, they miss out on a ton of money for a bigger fight down the road. Once Cena loses, TNA doesn't get those fan's money anymore and there's not a big demand to buy a ticket to watch Christian/Anderson vs Earthquake.

Right. I don't think that TNA is going to use Facebook as their model for deciding how to properly book matches. Cena's popularity as being someone who draws an insane amount of unintentional heat from the crowd would easily get him a spot in the TNA roster, and booking him to lose would make the most sense financially.

Booking him to lose the big matches make sense financially. Booking him to lose against Earthquake would cost the company money compared to what they could've made farther down the road. Hypothetical here but let's take a group of TNA fans together. Let's say 20% of the fans are actual Earthquake fans, 5% are literally throwing up in a garbage can every time the see Cena, 10% are Cena fans, and the remaining 65% are paying to watch and see if Cena were to lose or not. Earthquake beats Cena in the upset of the century. Now those 65% got their monies worth, no need to pay for it again since he lost to a wrestler like Earthquake. The 10% of the Cena fans now lose interest in the tournament, their favorite guy isn't wrestling why pay for it? The 5% Cena haters hail Earthquake as one of the greatest of all time and the other 20% are happy as well. Now you're getting 25% of that group of people to pay for the next match. On the flip side, Cena and Earthquake put on a show where Cena wins. The 5% of vomitteers, while disgusted, will still watch the show regardless because that's their baby that they grew up with. The 20% of genuine Earthquake fans now don't really care about the rest of the tournament and wind up leaving. Cena fans at 10% of course go home happy and will be back for the next match and the 65% that watched the battle, while disappointed, will now put their hopes into the hands of the next man to beat Cena. That's 80% of the people coming back to watch the next show. That's why Cena continues to win despite the amount of boos he draws from the fans in certain arenas.

So, have him wrestle a grudge match on the side in some other fantasy bout. Hell, let's set up a Cena league where we get to imagine how he'd fare against every other performer in history.

Nobody is going to take any of Cena's victories seriously in TNA if Earthquake beats him cleanly in the first round of a tournament. You might as well cut ties with Cena and anybody paying to watch him lose in TNA now. There's no need to set up a league when this tournament is created to determine basically the exact same goal. Cena is a number one seed and Earthquake is a thirty 32 in the tournament for a reason.

I'm not saying Cena has to lose every single match, I'm saying that in front of a TNA crowd his chances at winning are as good as when he came to ECW.

Once you get to the payoff match yes. Earthquake vs John Cena with no buildup other than a first round to determine the best pro wrestler is not a marquee match-up so, there is no payoff to having Cena lose.

John Cena's role in front of literally anybody is that of a guy who thinks he's great but the crowd has doubts that he fails to dispel. The crowd did love to hate John Cena, and he had to do the job because of that.

He lost to the big and hot names of the industry like an Orton, Rock, Punk, and Bryan. He doesn't lose to guys like Earthquake and if he does, it's due to some kind of outside interference, which is grounds for disqualification in the first round of this tournament.

And that unique type of popularity is what will get Cena killed if he's not competing for the WWE. If he brings that same type of feel to TNA, which is inevitable because even since then his character is practically identical to what it was in 2006, they'll demand that he take a loss as well.

His character has stayed the same since 2006 as you put it because it make the only wrestling company he's worked for money. Put him in a different company with good business sense and Cena will adapt to the character that the management team wants him to be. The saying "Put your money where your mouth is" is key to deciding what to promote within a wrestling company. If all a person has to do is change the color of his shirt every 6 months to add in truckloads of dollar bills into my pocket, I'm gonna just change the shirt. The loudest reactions, positive or negative, generally get booked as the top talent the most.

You have to ask yourself if for John Cena's list of accomplishments, or lack thereof, prior to trying out for pro-wrestling would have allowed him to been booked as strongly if he followed his class-mates to TNA. You have a distinct advantage if you jump to a different company after having had modest success in the previous one, your image hasn't become a tired one and it can evolve to represent the new company. John Cena has been the poster child for the WWE since before his first world title reign, he won't be able to shake that kind of reputation.

But things prior to each wrestler aren't relevant to who would win in a match when both are in their primes. When Cena hatred was at it's peek in 2005/6 (What would most likely be what a TNA crowd would resemble), he was still beating opponents like Earthquake in a clean one-on-one match.

I don't think that the TNA fans consider John Cena to be a big enough name when it comes to their style to warrant an automatic HOF induction for beating him. Just like you and many other people on this forum are die-hard John Cena supporters in spite of the likely-hood that you may have to deal with an entire crowd that doesn't agree with you, I'm a die-hard fan of John Tenta the human being and Earthquake the pro-wrestler. I would love to see what kind of a match Earthquake would work with Christian.

The only time I would have to deal with an entire crowd that wouldn't agree with me and the other Cena supporters is in a crowd like ECW when John Cena is defending a WWE Title and in Chicago when he's going up against Chi-Town's own CM Punk. Other than that, there are plenty of arenas, cities, and groups of people where I can find Cena fans like myself. As far as a general interest level in a Christian/Anderson vs Earthquake match up, I'd be willing to bet double or nothing that same six pack that it wouldn't be on the same level as a John Cena vs Christian/Anderson.

Look at it this way: Fans, whether in pro wrestling or real sports, will cheer for upsets. Since this is a March Madness like tournament, let's use college basketball as an example. All you have to do is look at the crowd in a basketball arena around the middle of March to see that one moment where David topples Goliath to move on to the next round. For about a day and a half, that team that pulled off the memorable upset is the talk of the town, or so it seems. Ratings quickly prove that once the traditional powers bow out of the tournament, fans lose interest in the next game. You're more likely to have better ratings when the big names like Duke and Kentucky make it deeper in the tournament rather than teams like Mercer and Florida Gulf Coast. Same logic applies to the wrestling world. Normally the bigger the name, the more interest it garners and there isn't a bigger name in pro wrestling in North America than John Cena.

You think that the only way Earthquake could defeat Cena is if the TNA ring had magic powers? The ECW ring didn't have magic powers, how in the fuck did Cena lose that one?

Take one part RVD, add his "hometown" brand, throw in two referees getting knocked out during the match, add in outside interference from Edge and then a non referee counting the 1-2-3 and voilà! That's how Cena lost that match in ECW. In an ECW ring, all that is legal. In a TNA ring, that results in a disqualification and Cena moves on anyway. So if it took RVD, a man who in his prime was much more accomplished than Earthquake, that much to beat Cena in a ECW rules match, how can Tenta when he was in his prime live up to that?

This relates to the notion that John Cena earned his accolades within the WWE through magic powers, vested in him by an absolutely enamored management staff. The crowd seems to have a different take on his character.

The majority doesn't. Maybe around 40% may have a different take but, it still doesn't stop them from making Cena one of the most polarizing characters the WWE has had in years.