Third Round - Tokyo: Ladder Match - Harley Race vs. Eddie Guerrero

[klunderbunker]

This is a Third Round match in the Tokyo Region.

Rules: I know you've all seen ladder matches. It is the first person to climb the ladder and grab the object above the ring. There are no pinfalls, submissions, count outs or disqualifications.

Location: Tokyo Dome

Harley Race

Vs.

Eddie Guerrero

​

Voting is open for 4 days.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Harley Race is an 8 time NWA World Heavyweight Champion, the men he defeated reads like a whose who list of pro wrestling in the 60s 70s and much of the 80s and the term legend can be applied to him without any fear of contradiction. To my knowledge, however, Harley Race never competed in a ladder match.

Eddie Guerrero is part of a wrestling dynasty. The Guerrero family is to Mexican wrestling fans what the Harts are to the Canadians. Guerrero was one of the true work horses of WCW in the mid and late 90s, was one of the guys that typically put on some of the best matches on the card. Eddie Guerrero will probably always be best remembered for his contributions to the WCW Cruiserweight Division even though he was a former WWE Champion.

I expect Harley Race to win this match as there are a lot on this forum that aren't too crazy about Guerrero. I know that Guerrero's accomplishments pale when you compare them to Race's, but I'm going to vote for Guerrero here. I think that Guerrero has the tools to take a legend like Harley Race in this type of match. Guerrero is arguably stronger, definitely the more athletic of the two and, while I don't think he's as tough as Race, Guerrero was tougher than most people gave him credit for. I'll probably catch some grief for this, but I'm going with Guerrero here.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Guererro is too reckless in the ring. He's too high risk and when you're a high risk kinda guy like Eddie is, you sometimes crash and burn. And if you do that against Race, you lose the match. Harley Race prides himself on letting his opponent make the mistake, him capitalizing on it and winning the match. Guererro will make mistakes in this match, and ultimately, Race will climb the ladder, and win the match.

And for anyone to say that 'Raczroz has neverz been n a laddur matchaz', well... it's not rocket science to climb a damn ladder. Race can keep Eddie down long enough to win this match and move on.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

Harley Race by a mile. An 8-time NWA Champion when that was the championship in wrestling, Harley Race is one of the greatest wrestlers of all-time. To have that level of success, you have to be extraordinary. It wasn't necessarily Harley's physical tools that made him a legend, but his mind. He was cold, calculating and always capitalized on mistakes. Eddie Guerrero has made so many mistakes in his career for me to believe that he'll wrestle well enough to beat Race. Harley will pound Eddie Guerrero into the mat, climb the ladder, and win the match. It's that simple.

 

[Tenta]

Let's see..... An all time legend, or a guy who only got the belt during a year where Smackdown was depleted by Lesnar leaving, and was going through experimental champions?

look, Eddie's great, but a career mid carder, really. His one reign came bacause Brock got the Fuck out of the E, and otherwise, Eddie would be wrestling for the US Title.

Harley Race is a legend, and once more, it's not like he's immobile. Climbing a ladder is absolutely no problem for the guy. I'll wait til someone actually gives me a debate to go further.

Guerrero fans, it's all well and good to vote, but for the love of God, post. Otherwise, you just kinda come as annoying and really uneccesary to the tourney.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Wait Eddie is winning this right now?

Ok I know Guerrero was in a few ladder matches in his day but really it's not about climbing a ladder. My 65 year old grandpa can climb a ladder so anyone with the thinking that Race wouldn't make it to the top needs to be wearing a helmet. Harley Race was one of, if not the most legit badass in pro wrestling, if you give this guy a ladder to use as a weapon he should be nearly unstoppable.

Race should win this in every way possible, except for the people voting because the miss Eddie. I miss Eddie too, no disrespect to him, but Race wins this match.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Pretty sure I haven't seen a reason for voting for Guererro here. I know Eddie touched a lot of hearts and entertained us greatly, but there's no way he beats Harley Race in any kind of match.

Race proceeded Ric Flair as the most dominant World Champion during his time. He was constantly a main event. Eddie wasn't a main event talent until injuries happened to certain people. He was in it by default. Once he was there, he made the most of it, but that doesn't mean he was better than Harley Race.

So vote Race... and if you do vote for Eddie, at least give a damn reason why.

 

[Muffin Top Merkley]

I really wanted to vote for Eddie, but ultimately I couldn't.

Lariat said it best, Eddie would make a mistake, and thats all Race would need to capitalize on. He would use Eddie's error and continue to beat him down until he was sure that he would have enough time to climb a ladder uninterrupted.

Sorry Eddie.

 

[ScreaminNormanSmiley]

is eddie really winning this? there is still yet to be a single post explaining why somebody voted for eddie. i realize eddies been in more ladder mathces but his record in them isnt exactly flawless. in the singles ladder matches i know of eddies record is 1 win two losses. he beat syxx pac, which is not that impressive. and he lost to rvd and rey mysterio, two talents inferior to race. race on the other hand has never been in a ladder match, but after completely destroying guerrero, which im completely confident he would do, he could climb up the ladder uninterupted and win, simple as that. and eddie won most of his matches with dirty tactics, but race was better at that so there is really no way i see eddie winning this.

 

[Ferbian]

I'm gonna follow the examples of all the written voters: Voting Harley Race.

While Harley might not have the bigger experience in a ladder match (if any, I don't recall) he's had experience in other matches like Steel Cages, and has dominated for the majority of them making him an 8 time NWA world champion (yes I'll use that argument as well) and he'll succeed in climbing a ladder just well against Eddie.

Eddie is a decent mix of high flying and ground talent, but I don't think he'll be able to take advantage of this in this match, due to like Lariat said, Harley Race focuses on the opponents mistakes, and works them down from there, if Eddie tries to climb the ladder too early, Harley Race strikes, and poor Eddie won't have a chance.

Vote for the right choice, vote Harley Race.

 

[Blade]

There, Race is winning. The truth is, Eddie wouldn't be able to resist one big crazy spot off the ladder. I mean, he once did a frogsplash off the cage when, and correct me if I'm wrong, he could've climbed down the cage to win the WWE title against JBL? So yeah, he'd definitely have a clear chance to win, but he's wanna steal the show rather than win the match. He'd mess up. And Race would know this.

 

[pun2003hh]

Alright, well this looks like a losing battle, but I'll be the only guy to stand up and voice my opinion of backing Guerrero. But the truth is, the only reason to vote for him comes down to personal preference.

It is hard to compare wrestlers from completely different eras in this nutty fake sport we love. Race was wrestling the Funks, Dick the Bruiser and Rick Martel. Guerrero was wrestling Beniot, Angle, and The Undertaker. Race was a seven time world champion in an era where men weren't winning multiple world titles. Guerrero won the WWE Championship at a time where men his size were not being considered as legitimate world champions.

In terms of accomplishments, I am pretty sure that Race's 7 NWA World Titles outweighs Eddie's 4 month WWE Championship reign. In terms of in ring prowess, I personally think that while Race was great in his tough man and catch as catch can style, I prefer Eddie's versatility, where he could mat wrestle, brawl, play the power game, and even fly and did all of them convincingly. Also, Eddie's ring psychology in his later years was second to none. Guerrero had a way of making the crowd react EXACTLY as he wanted.

But what it really comes down to for me is the fact that in the near 50 year history of the WWE/WWF/WWWF Championship, there are only two men of Hispanic origin that have won the championship. Pedro Morales and nearly 35 years later, Eddie Guerrero. As a Hispanic, there aren't too many Latino wrestlers that make it to the top in this country. For one reason or another, most Hispanics that come to the WWE usually find themselves stuck in the midcard. But Guerrero, despite his vast number of personal issues throughout the years (his autobiography is a great read) was able to make it to the top. That is why he is getting my vote.

 

[D-Man]

You know, I'm not a mindless sheep. I can see that my fellow mods and admins are voting for Harley Race. I understand that the guy is tough, he's a legend, he's a former champion, blah blah blah... but I just can't see any way that he'd be able to defeat Eddie Guerrero in a ladder match.

Listen, I'm not knocking Harley Race. As a matter of fact, I was disappointed at the draw he got for the gimmick used in this match. Why? Because the first thing I thought of is how ladder matches mostly favor the more agile wrestler. Sure, this method has been proven wrong from time to time, but more times than less, the more agile wrestler has been the one to come out with the win... at least in my memory. (And sorry, but I'm not going to search Wikipedia for the history of winners and losers of ladder matches for this round... I don't feel it's even worth it.)

Even though Race was a technical genius and could take punishment like no other, this is a match where foreign objects are LEGAL and Eddie's cheating methods completely come into play. Sure, he doesn't need to break the rules to get the win (since there are very few in this match), but he's a lot more familiar with the hardware and weapons that would come into play in this match.

Eddie's finisher requires that he immobilizes his opponent long enough for him to CLIMB the top ropes and connect with a frog splash. In my opinion, that makes him more experienced and more of a master of climbing stuff than Harley Race. Eddie could find and seize the moment of climbing the ladder at the perfect time much easier than Race would. And I cannot see Harley physically dominating this match to the point where he would have enough time to climb a ladder and grasp the item hanging from the ceiling... sorry.

Once again, I'm disappointed that Race got a bad gimmick draw and I REALLY wanted him to move on, but I can only call this match as I see it. And the way I see it, Eddie will come out on top. That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Tastycles]

You know, I'm not a mindless sheep. I can see that my fellow mods and admins are voting for Harley Race. I understand that the guy is tough, he's a legend, he's a former champion, blah blah blah... but I just can't see any way that he'd be able to defeat Eddie Guerrero in a ladder match.

I'm not being funny, but it is not very difficult is it? The Undertaker beat Jeff Hardy in a ladder match, all he has to do is keep him down and then climb it. Pretty sure the man who has beaten some of the biggest names ever could find something to put Eddie away. Eddie Guererro is the Senor Speilbergo version of Ric Flair, Race beat Flair, he'll beat the cheap imitation.

Listen, I'm not knocking Harley Race. As a matter of fact, I was disappointed at the draw he got for the gimmick used in this match. Why? Because the first thing I thought of is how ladder matches mostly favor the more agile wrestler.

No they don't. One on one ladder matches were one guy is significantly more agile have been fought multiple times. Here's a history:

Razor Ramon beat Shawn Michaels (1-0 for the less agile)
Shawn Michaels beat Razor Ramon (1-1)
Undertaker beat Jeff Hardy (2-1)
Triple H beat Shawn Michaels (3-1)
RVD beat Big Show (3-2)
Raven beat AJ Styles (4-2)
Dusty Rhodes beat Brian Lawler (5-2)
Abyss beat AJ Styles (6-2)
Abyss beat Jeff Hardy (7-2)
Christian beat Abyss (7-3)
James Storm beat Eric Young (8-3)
Mr Anderson beat Kurt Angle (9-3)
Jeff Jarrett beat Chris Benoit (10-3)
Chris Benoit beat Jeff Jarrett (10-4)
Edge beat Christian (11-4)

So actually, the reverse is true. The less agile guy wins, the agile guy takes all the bumps.

Sure, this method has been proven wrong from time to time, but more times than less, the more agile wrestler has been the one to come out with the win... at least in my memory. (And sorry, but I'm not going to search Wikipedia for the history of winners and losers of ladder matches for this round... I don't feel it's even worth it.)

I do, because it's important that we use facts as the basis of our arguments.

Even though Race was a technical genius and could take punishment like no other, this is a match where foreign objects are LEGAL and Eddie's cheating methods completely come into play. Sure, he doesn't need to break the rules to get the win (since there are very few in this match), but he's a lot more familiar with the hardware and weapons that would come into play in this match.

The fact that there's no rules hurts Eddie more than it helps him. Rather than entering with the advantage of being able to fleece Race, Race can just twat him with a chair ten seconds into the match.

Eddie's finisher requires that he immobilizes his opponent long enough for him to CLIMB the top ropes and connect with a frog splash. In my opinion, that makes him more experienced and more of a master of climbing stuff than Harley Race.

That would be the same Harley Race that invented the diving headbutt, right?

Look, Eddie has more experience in ladder matches, but he lost two of them, one was a tag match, and his sole win came against Syxx, who is hardly the bastion of greatness that Harley Race is. In both his matches against main eventers, he lost.

Race is the far superior wrestler and far more likely to pull something out of the bag to get the victory, in my eyes anyway.

Eddie could find and seize the moment of climbing the ladder at the perfect time much easier than Race would. And I cannot see Harley physically dominating this match to the point where he would have enough time to climb a ladder and grasp the item hanging from the ceiling... sorry.

I think he could, but he doesn't even have to. He could quite conceivably climb the ladder at the same time as Eddie, overpower him, throw him off and grab the title. Job done, thanks for coming.

Once again, I'm disappointed that Race got a bad gimmick draw and I REALLY wanted him to move on, but I can only call this match as I see it. And the way I see it, Eddie will come out on top. That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.

Fair enough, but I really don't see it. You rarely see an upset in a ladder match, and I don't think this would be an exception. Race moves forward.

 

[gd]

I suppose it has to be Harley here. Eddie was entertaining at times, but definetly wasn't a ture main eventer, despite the world title. I'm not sure who all he's lost to in his career, but I can assure you that there are some not so impressive names on that list.

The whole "agile man wins a ladder match" theory is good and all, but when you think about it, does it really matter. It's all about being able to put your opponent down for a long enough time so that you can climb a ladder. Just because Eddie can do more flippys, doesn't mean he can climb a ladder twice as fast as Race or anything.

Race for the reasons above, and the facial hair.

 

[thepalaceprince]

1st off thank you lariat! Ive never been in a ladder match either but I know how to climb a ladder it isnt difficult. Im not an eddie guerrero guy I dont think he shouldve ever won the world title hes to small and to reckless besides you cant lie cheat and steal in a ladder match because there are no rules. Harley race is to strong and to tough he'll beat eddie to a pulp climb the ladder and come out victorious

 

[Supernova]

Eddie, he's faster and more agile and ladder matches seem to suit these kinds of wrestlers. There's a reason the Dudleyz never won TLC. There's a reason you have Jericho vs HBK as a ladder match but not HHH vs Cena.

 

[FunKay the Inevitable]

AHHH!!! Who to vote for...who to vote for...Harley Race. Fact is, Eddie has the advantage going into this match but Race is smart enough to keep Guerrero grounded. If he can do that then Race has all the ability in the world to climb up the ladder. Eddie would put up one hell of a fight but Race would finish him.

 

[Phoenix]

The reason I went for Race was mainly due to the fact that out of three ladder matches in his career, Eddie has only won one of them. Regardless of experience, if Eddie can't seem to be able to beat Rob Van Dam or Rey Mysterio who are likewise highflyers, how does he have a chance against Race? Race would simply be a guy who would be using the ladder as a weapon to make sure Guerrero's down before ascending the ladder. As stated Eddie would take risks and ends by coming up short. While I have respect for Guerrero, I simply think Race would take care of him before even considering to climb.

 

[Coco]

Harly Race might as well be wearing cement shoes as it's clear he can't climb. Eddie does so on the regular basis and has gotten used to the altitude in Heaven. No doubt he has the advantage. Eddie all the way.

 

[stillboy21]

According to the tiebreaker rule of looking into the forums to decide who wins, we can clearly see that Harley is in the lead. I wasn't gonna comment on my vote but now that they are tied I figured I should explain my vote some.
I voted for Eddie a couples day ago for much of the same reason Pun2003hh said, just personal preference. I'll be honest but I don't think I've ever seen a Harley Race match but I've seen tons of Eddie matches. Eddie's just the more familiar wrestler to me. I like Eddie more, I think he has more ladder match experience than Harley and is more agile and yes I read the chart Tastycles made but I'm still sticking to my gut.
Maybe Race deserves to win this but at the moment I'm typing this the voting is tied and I want to stand by my vote. Maybe the other people out there that voted for Eddie too will come out and speak their thoughts.

 

[ScreaminNormanSmiley]

According to the tiebreaker rule of looking into the forums to decide who wins, we can clearly see that Harley is in the lead. I wasn't gonna comment on my vote but now that they are tied I figured I should explain my vote some.
I voted for Eddie a couples day ago for much of the same reason Pun2003hh said, just personal preference. I'll be honest but I don't think I've ever seen a Harley Race match but I've seen tons of Eddie matches. Eddie's just the more familiar wrestler to me. I like Eddie more, I think he has more ladder match experience than Harley and is more agile and yes I read the chart Tastycles made but I'm still sticking to my gut.
Maybe Race deserves to win this but at the moment I'm typing this the voting is tied and I want to stand by my vote. Maybe the other people out there that voted for Eddie too will come out and speak their thoughts.

in general i am ok with somebody voting for somebody because they like them more as there is no specific guidline on what voting should be based on but this one really bothers me. the reason is your complete ignorance to one of the wrestlers. as you said your self you have never seen a harley race match. how can you know who you would prefer without proper knowledge about one of them? its not like its hard to find race matches either, it just you dont care enough to look and your completely fine with making the wrong choice(not saying it is, even though i believe thats the case, but without research thats pretty much what you are doing)

 

[stillboy21]

in general i am ok with somebody voting for somebody because they like them more as there is no specific guidline on what voting should be based on but this one really bothers me.

Its great where we live in a country where we can vote for any reason we want.

the reason is your complete ignorance to one of the wrestlers. as you said your self you have never seen a harley race match. how can you know who you would prefer without proper knowledge about one of them?

Oh, what were matches like in his hay-day, just 20 minute head locks? That's real compelling compared to a ladder match. Ok, I really do have an appreciation for the golden age of wrestling, we wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for that generation. But I just like the newer stuff better.

it just you dont care enough to look and your completely fine with making the wrong choice(not saying it is, even though i believe thats the case, but without research thats pretty much what you are doing)

What is it your "not saying", seems pretty obvious your hinting at something here.
Look, I'm just seeing this match as classic wrestling vs newer wrestling in a ladder match. I have actually seen the older stuff, though I probably haven't conveyed it to you , but I have and I've also seen some of the new stuff. For this specific situation I see Harley as a symbol of the classic wrestling, its nothing personal against him but now I got Eddie representing the newer age of wrestling and I just see the newer age winning in a ladder match.

 

[Megatron]

Like some others have said, with this match going down to the wire, I will have to explain my vote for Guerrero, which I made a few days ago. Partially the reason that I voted for Eddie was because I am supporting this man until the end and want to help take him as far as I can. Eddie was one of the greatest entertainers during his WWE tenure, and could carry anyone with an ounce of talent to a decent match. He was a great, diverse wrestler, who could play a face in peril, such as with this match below:

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Oh, you thought that meant that he could only be a one dimensional face, no? Actually, I thought he was better as a heel then as a face. That says something of his heel character when you know how good of a face he was. Here's an example of Eddie executing his great heel persona.

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Now those matches aren't ladder matches, but they show at how good of a face/heel Eddie could play. Now while many people may still vote for Race even after those reasons, they have to remember that Eddie's experience in a ladder match is obviously greater then Race's. I'm not trying to say that it's hard to climb up a ladder, because it isn't, however Guerrero knows how the elements of the match goes. How much energy it takes out of you to climb up the ladder. How much you have to take out of your opponent before you can think about climbing the ladder. Race isn't a stupid guy by any means, but he's clearly out of his element here. If it was a Cage or I Quit match, or pretty much any other type of match, Race probably gets the win here. But participating in a match where he has NO experience, DOESN'T KNOW how much energy it takes, and a match that Eddie has won TWICE, and participated in two other times, gives the advantage to Guerrero. Eddie's more agile as well, which would help in avoiding shots from Race and being more swift with the ladder. Vote Eddie. It's the right thing to do.

 

[8thwotwATG]

Guerrero is ahead again????.... just a little surprising to me, but then again, probably more than 2/3's of the people here have never seen a Harley Race match. Anyway, this is a tough draw for eddie here. I liked Guerrero as a performer, and God knows I still miss seeing him work, but the truth of the matter is that he is OVERMATCHED here. With all due respect, he is the stiffest competition that Race has had to face in this tournament so far, but he is not half the wrestler that Harley Race is. I 'm really trying not to repeat the same sentiments that others have voiced here, but they are the best arguments in favor of Race. One of the greatest professional wrestlers of all time would just take his punishment, keep Eddie grounded, and use enough of his ring tools to subdue eddie long enough to climb the ladder and take the win. please, please, PLEASE vote Race!