A11oftheLights
Getting Noticed By Management
I do. If you feel passionate enough to talk the same thing over and over, it deserves its own thread.
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I do. If you feel passionate enough to talk the same thing over and over, it deserves its own thread.
All you Cavs fans out there, I feel sorry for you. Golden State put to rest all of the talk about if the Cavs had have been healthy they would've won. Golden State made Cleveland its bitch last night.
Also, I think the Clippers should have three all stars this season; Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, and either Deandre Jordan or J.J. Reddick. Reddick has been playing like an all star this season.
Also, I think the Clippers should have three all stars this season; Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, and either Deandre Jordan or J.J. Reddick. Reddick has been playing like an all star this season.
Stop blaming Kobe. Dwight didn't want to run the pick and roll in LA despite the fact he was better suited for it. Kobe and Dwight's relationship did touch on the amount of touches but their bigger issue was their dissimilar approaches to the game. Kobe was trying to teach Dwight how to be a winner and Dwight wasn't comfortable with that approach to the game. Kobe had a more serious approach and Dwight was more playful and relaxed. Kobe touched on this topic earlier in the season, go watch the interview.
This mainly boils down to Howard did not like sharing the paint with Gasol. The whole Asik comparison came up because Howard does NOT like sharing the paint. Kobe is going to get his touches, nobody for a second would think he'll take less for Howard. Kobe went as far as saying coming in that Howard would make a good 3rd option. Gasol was moved to the bench in order to get him more time at CENTER. When he was playing alongside Howard in D'Antoni's system, Gasol was often been relegated to roaming the perimeter, helping lead to those poor shooting percentages.
My assessment is Howard wasn't 100% and wasn't a good fit for the Lakers when he should have been. Simple as that.
Never saw them as a championship team.
Offense was going to run through Kobe regardless.
Hey look over here buddy, we are talking about Dwight Howard. Anyone that watches basketball knows Steve Nash isn't a defensive presence on the court, why would you think he would be of any impact on the defensive side at that stage in his career?
I'm pretty sure I pointed out Howard's issues were on the offensive board and second chance points. That was a big part of the problem during Howard's time there.
Well quite naturally they do become better defensive team.
What's bullshit is you clearly didn't watch any Laker game and you're simply pulling statistics from pro-basketball data to support your argument. Now imagine how he would've played had he been fully healthy and bought into the system correctly. Able to get up the court consistently on offense instead of the last man, attacking the glass and getting in position, shifting, protecting the rim like he has in the past. Unfortunately for the Lakers they didn't find out.
Anyone with any knowledge of basketball can tell that Dwight didn't perform up to expectations. You can argue that statistical argument all you want. You have to physically watch the game to see what any NBA fan and Laker fan saw instead of strictly basing your argument off all stats. How was he just as good as he was with Orlando? I've given my reasons as to why he wasn't.
Statistics are measured, but if you're only going to look at blocks and rebounds then it further indicates you have no knowledge of basketball which I truly believe you may watch but have no full understanding of what you're looking at. Defensive rating which is a statistic you seemingly disregarded is a measuring tool. If you're a statistics guy don't overlook defensive rating, and synergy numbers which evaluate the player as primary defender in different play sets, defensive win shares, defensive +-, and sportvu that is measured based upon on how opponents shoot in the restricted area with that player actively contesting. All that is looked at.
Do you know why a guy like Draymond Green is just as valuable of defender today than a Dwight Howard? You watched him defend the pick and roll. He forces the ball to the driver's screen side hand, allowing the guard coming off to attack the ball. And Green is able to switch constantly, from guard to forward to center to guard, without ever being caught in a real mismatch.
Again Howard wasn't effective on the offensive glass. Read above, read before. Inability to recover after jumping, or move as quickly during the season. Something you keep overlooking that was clear as day in the games because you're blinded by statistics.
Dwight was on a Magic team that was the 3rd best defensive team. No way was someone like Jason Richardson a better defensive player than Kobe Bryant? Dwight played with a less stellar pool of players defensively.
You're a stat guy, what was the Laker's EFG when Howard was in the game in comparison to when he's not? Kobe grabs a rebound, they're in transition but Dwight is the last man up the court - he hurt his own touches with his inability to physically be where they needed him to be. This plays into my argument about his ability to shift and close in as opposed to going belly up and letting players around him. At full health he would've recovered and contested the shot. He wasn't consistent in doing that and the team STATISTICALLY will show they were better when he wasn't on the court.
It's a real stat that is used to help evaluate great defensive players. Tim Duncan is usually always near the top.
Take that up with the league then if you disagree.
I misquoted the years but the point was his defensive rating wasn't in the top 15 during his stint with the Lakers when looking at the few seasons before.
Done explained to you my argument multiple times.
You have no clue as to what you're talking about and is a guy who just looks at ESPN for the highlights, that much is certain after reading your posts during this discussion.
Asik was stuck behind Joakim Noah he didn't stand a chance and seemingly his play in the playoffs which I believe was during his last season in Chicago is what really led to him landing in Houston. This further emphasizes your lack of basketball knowledge.
When he went to the Rockets he was brought in to be their starting Center. He played well and helped the team get to the playoffs. After that season is when Dwight came and his minutes declined because they chose to move Howard to center(naturally so) and Asik went to the bench.
To be honest I was referring to Asik. He plays uninspired - but you'd have to actually watch the games to see why I was saying that.
The argument in which I chimed in in was about Dwight Howard's failures in LA. As a whole they underperformed as a unit and just seemingly weren't a good fit. If it makes you feel better than I feel the team was going to flop regardless. Starting with an aging Nash and a coach whose system I've never been a fan of.
Surprisingly he's a decent outlet passer. He wasn't brought there for his offense I'll be the first to admit but he was a quality rebounder and reasonable defensive presence that can chip in a few easy baskets which is basically all you want from him.
The point I was trying to make is those are fringe all-star numbers for center.
I'm not disagreeing with that just pointing out how a decent player was moved to the bench because they were trying to play Howard at the 4.
Personally while not knowing you not having anything against you I think you have a poor understanding of the game especially when it came down to defending Dwight's failed LA venture with basic statistics. I really don't believe you watch the game of basketball and if you do you aren't comprehending that's going on. Your response to how a DPOY is determined was pure idiotic. They look and stats among everything else that matters when measuring a recipient of the award. I can hardly argue with their decisions in that avenue.
Fire Marshall Bill
Let me show ya somethin!!!
Very funny but I understand his thinking.
He banned them on the stadium grounds because he read where they can catch on fire.
J.J.
You have to forgive BlunderKunker, he doesn't understand the game of basketball. He thinks stats can really be used to determine one's ability to play the game. It would be like if I came in here and tried to tell you that Allen Iverson was one of the best defensive guards in the history of the NBA. We both know that's horse shit because we've both played, watched, and understand the game. Having said that, though, the stats would support that Iverson was a great defensive guard. He was tops in steals and 50/50 balls nearly every year he was in the NBA.
You have to forgive BlunderKunker, he doesn't understand the game of basketball. He thinks stats can really be used to determine one's ability to play the game. It would be like if I came in here and tried to tell you that Allen Iverson was one of the best defensive guards in the history of the NBA. We both know that's horse shit because we've both played, watched, and understand the game. Having said that, though, the stats would support that Iverson was a great defensive guard. He was tops in steals and 50/50 balls nearly every year he was in the NBA.
Hyorinmaru
Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
Pancake is a lot easier to type
I won't stop holding Kobe accountable for the shit show that has been his defense for the past 4-5 years.
Except as I showed you with the numbers, Dwight Howard ran the pick and roll and they were very successful with it. Just because he didn't want to run the PnR doesn't mean the Lakers didn't do it at all.
No shit. Dwight Howard was trying to win basketball games and Kobe Bryant wanted to go out there and score 30 points a game. Or does the entire concept of "defense" totally escape you and Bryant?
What a crock of shit. If Kobe had a genuine fuck to give about winning he would have improved his defense or got his old ass out of the way to let someone else actually stay in front of a player.
Who cares what their approach and mindsets are? Dwight Howard performed at an elite level while Bryant played elite offense to try and balance how utter garbage his defense went.
Howard didn't have to share the paint with Gasol because D'Antoni didn't like Gasol's playstyle in the first place. As far as I'm aware, Howard was irrelevant to the amount of mintues Gasol got.
And again I'm left asking how you get to this baseless assertion. Howard had no issue sharing the paint with either Gasol, or Clark. Nor did he have issues sharing the court with Asik or Terrance Jones.
Yeah, because fuck trying to win basketball games! "KOBE!"
A third option would be fine if Kobe actually passed the ball more often than not. But he didn't, and it shows with the amount of Field Goals Attempted. 2012-2013 Kobe took 24% of the team's shots that year. With funny enough Howard getting the 3rd most amount of shots on that team. In comparison, the Denver Nuggets who finished with the best offensive that year Ty Lawson who shot the most for that team only took 13% of the team's total attempts.
The Lakers had a potent offense that year, and it can be credited to Bryant and Howard. But Howard is not wrong when saying Kobe could have passed the ball more often than not.
Fucking lying horseshit.
The original starting lineup had Pau Gasol at four and Howard at five. But Pau performed poorly and fell victim to injuries. By the time D'Antoni came to town Antoni had no idea what to do with Gasol. To make matters worse, Earl Clark was having a fantastic year with the Lakers leaving Gasol to come off the bench and play. To try and imply Howard was the man responsible for Gasol's shortcomings is more dishonest bullshit.
"In D'Antoni's system"
"In D'Antoni's system"
"In D'Antoni's system"
"In D'Antoni's system"
Again, how is this Howard's fault that Pau's game didn't translate well in D'Antoni's system?
How much better did Howard have to play to be a good fit for the Lakers? Why do I have to fucking repeat this question. With Howard on the team, the Lakers finished as one of the top 10 teams in scoring. With of course Howard leading the team in scoring percentage. The only shortcomings Howard had on the offensive side of the glass that season was his poor free throw shooting and turnovers.
Seriously, did fucking Dwight Howard have to pick up the entire Staples Stadium with his bare god damn hands to have appeased the Laker fanbase?
And you were in the minority in that regard. The 2012-2013 preseason had the Lakers and Heat going to the finals that year.
No said it didn't have to run through Kobe. But what people said, and will continue to say is that Kobe shoots the ball too damn much.
Why do you think the Lakers' defensive woes fall on Howard when two of his fellow starters show a complete inability to stay in front of their mark defensively? Nash and Kobe played shit defense, hell statistically the entire team save for Howard played garbage defense. No one expects Nash to be a lockdown guy, he's never been that guy but to imply the Lakers failed defensively because Howard didn't live up to expectations is failing to see the rest of the court and how fucking old and slow they were.
And it was pointed out to be fucking bullshit because Howard finished that year with the second most offensive rebounds and the second best shooting percentage. Offensive rebounds and second chance points were not an issue for Howard. But you want them to be to continue your dishonest bullshit.
The biggest problem Howard had as a Laker that he wasn't Kobe Bryant. And because he wasn't Kobe Bryant he became the scapegoat for the 2012-2013 season. Well in spite of the fact the next year two years the Rockets have gone to the playoffs with help from Howard's play while the Lakers became the worst Lakers team of all time without Howard helping them defensively.
Finally reason takes over. It only makes rational sense that a Lakers core of Kobe/Nash in their twilight years would have no defensive ability at all.
It seems like you hate the idea that facts rally against your bullshit parade. Tough shit.
"Wahhhh how dare you use stats to ruin my arguments!"
Imagine if Kobe had the fountain of youth. Hell imagine if I had a racecar that can fly. I don't like dealing with what if's are presuppositions. What happened, happened. And what happened was despite coming back six months early from back surgery Howard played elite basketball on both sides of the court while the rest of his team played dogshit defense.
The Lakers finished the year sixth in offense. How many times does that fact have to get across to you before you understand offensive play wasn't the issue of the Lakers in 2012-2013? Do you need their defensive stats branded across your back like in Mad Max?
And for the record, Howard was fifth in blocks that year, he was protecting the rim very well considering he had to play to make up for the defensive ability of his four other team mates.
The Lakers saw the play, saw the numbers, and despite of those numbers casted Howard out to the wolves and stayed on a sinking ship with Kobe Bryant and Steve Nash to have the worst record in Lakers history. But a record that will suck less than this current season with Kobe shooting a garbage 34%
Fucking bullshit again. How many times do you need to be called out on this? Howard played at an elite level and was the rebound leader. It's like asking someone to jump after cutting out their ACL. They jump, and then you're left complaining the man didn't jump high enough.
The expectation for that Laker season was to win a championship. They were the Lakers "Big Three" to compete with the Miami Big Three. Except that Nash and Kobe performed poorly defensively and Howard was left to be the scapegoat. It is no fucking surprise the next year after the Lakers fell apart defensively without Howard.
I can, and it serves my argument much better than this fucking stupid bullshit of "Hur dur, Laker fans saw Howard laughing over his missed free throws, he's the reason we suck. Hur dur."
NBA fans and Laker fans in general are fucking stupid. It's easy to be an armchair coach and think you can see flaws and weaknesses in someone's game by their footwork, shooting motion, or whatever fucking "intangibles" you wanna cook up but at the end of the day the numbers don't lie and they speak far more objectively than any Dick and Gary at the home game can tell you.
What the fans saw was a pre-season favorite end the season with an underwhelming 8th seed in the Playoffs with a first round shut out by the Lakers. Instead of looking at their team and seeing that Kobe and Nash have lost a huge step defensively blame Howard because he had the fucking audacity to question Kobe's shooting judgement. The fans are not reasonable, and it shows in hindsight as the Lakers fell apart, and continue falling apart to this day.
I gave you the fucking numbers to show that per game he was putting up similar numbers to his 2010-2011 season. Your "reasons" have been refuted, lubed, and shoved straight back up your ass.
What a pathetic attempt at a ad hom attack you dishonest window licker. You complained that Howard wasn't grabbing as many rebounds as he did in Orlando, I showed you otherwise. You complained he wasn't as dominant defensively as he was in Orlando and I showed you otherwise. You just hate the fact that numbers don't lie.
Is a measuring tool seemingly nobody looks at. And yet you still haven't explained how Defensive Rating measures "Per 100 possessions" yet.
I don't have access to Synergy numbers, and that is the case for most people who aren't in NBA Management. But if you want to go by all those numbers it'll show Howard was the best defender on the Lakers team.
Defensive Ratings per 100 possessions
Howard: 100
Johnson-Odom: 100
Earl Clark: 105
Jordan Hill: 105
Gasol: 106
Meta World Peace: 106
Kobe:107
Nash: 111
Now lets put together the Lakers starting five with these numbers and tell me where the Lakers were the weakest.
Nash: 111
Kobe: 107
MWP:106/Clark:105
Gasol:106/Clark:105
Howard: 100
So even by a metric you approve of it shows Howard outperformed the majority of the league save for seven other centers and 14 other players defensively. In a league with around >480 players that's spectacular.
If it's anything like your argument that Asik is a better rebounder than Howard it's because you say so?
Yeah Draymond is a pretty unique talent. How does this show that Howard didn't live up to expectations as a Laker. Or for that matter, does that even lay out what the Lakers expected of Howard in the first place?
And again the statline will show this fucking jargon you putting out is full of shit. How does the number 2 leader of offensive rebounds in the entire NBA be considered ineffective? Oh is it because you say so?
Read above and before. If being number the second best offensive rebounder wasn't good enough, what the fuck is good enough? So fucking what you think he didn't recover as quick as you would have wanted him to. He moved fast enough to grab more rebounds on the offensive side of the ball than all but one other fucking player in the entire NBA.
It really just fucking shits on your parade that you can't wheel out Skip Bayless level bullshit without the truth ruining it, don't it?
According to the Defensive rating you used to measure Dwight Howard's "regression" Jason Richardson actually was a better defender than Kobe Bryant in the 2012-2013 season with Richardson poising a 105 and Kobe holding a 107
But because I like making a mess out of you. The Magic post Howard fell from being 7th in points allowed to 23rd. And it's the same picture with the Lakers who went from 20th best defense with Howard on the team to 29th without Howard. It just comes to show just how valuable Howard truly was to that team.
You're right. Dwight Howard played with a Lakers team that was completely inept with Kobe Bryant and Steve Nash holding the worst defensive ratings on the team. (Again it should be mentioned this is a rating you wanted to use.
Howard on the court gave the Lakers a .516 EFG% and with him off the court it dipped to .503%. Meaning Howard gave the Lakers a .13% chance of scoring with him on the court.
What kind of backwards world do you live in where Kobe is at the paint grabbing rebounds before Howard? Bryant didn't even finish in the top 30 rebounds for Shooting Guards. Even if that were the case you haven't established how prevalent this was for the Lakers and how that hurt their chances of scoring. Considering the Lakers were a top scoring team that year, it's safe to assume this little aside you're presenting is irrelevant.
But again, Howard's inability to run a fastbreak is irrelevant considering that despite the fact you want Howard to sprint back from basket to basket the Lakers finished sixth offensively. Offense was not the issue for the Lakers that season. I don't know many more times does that point need to get across before you understand that.
But then again, you are trying to use a red herring to move the discussion away from the Lakers defensive shortcomings by pointing out one of their rare offensive flaws that season. I've come to expect that level of dishonesty from you.
How do you casually release such bullshit without any regard for reality. Howard was the second best in the NBA when it game to FG% He performed second best out of all qualified players in the league and the only time he hurt his own touches was his shoddy free throw shooting.
This plays into your argument because it's a story you get to tell instead of looking at the numbers to see what hurt and helped the Lakers that season. And in that 2012-13 season Howard made them a better rebounding, defensive, and even a slightly better shooting team. Unlike Kobe and Nash who who provided nothing to the defensive floor.
At full health and 10 years ago Kobe Bryant could score 85 points. But that isn't the case. We have to deal with what we got and the 2012-13 Lakers got a Dwight Howard who returned six months early from surgery to give them elite caliber shooting percentage, rebounding, and defense. The Lakers and the fans are fucking stupid for suggesting otherwise.
Jesus fucking Christ, how many times do the numbers need to show you that just isn't the fucking case? If we want to use the on/off court measurements it's evident the Lakers were a better team with Howard playing.
Howard On Court:
Team
EFG%
.480
ORB%
24.5
DRB%
79.2
TRB%
51.4
AST%
52.7
STL%
6.8
BLK%
8.4
TOV%
20.9
ORTG%
92.9
Opponent
EFG%
.516
ORB%
20.8
DRB%
75.5
TRB%
48.6
AST%
60.4
STL%
11.7
BLK%
7.5
TOV%
10.2
ORTG
114.0
Howard Off Court:
Team
EFG%
.503
ORB%
27.8
DRB%
72.9
TRB%
50.7
AST%
60.3
STL%
6.7
BKL%
6.7
TOV%
14.7
ORTG%
110.2
Opponent
EFG%
.507
ORB%
27.1
DRB%
72.2
TRB%
49.3
AST%
56.9
STL%
8.7
BKL%
9.2
TOV%
12.8
ORTG%
110.5
OH DARN LOOKS LIKE THOSE PESKY FACTS AND NUMBERS FOIL YOUR BULLSHIT AGAIN. The only place where Howard caused any negative impact on the Lakers floor was Offensive rating by a meager 2 points, .8 points in assists, 1% less in offensive rebounds, and 2 points in turnovers. But then the rest of the numbers show that Howard improves the team's abilities to rebound, block, and steal.
But what's really staggering, and gets to the root of what made Howard so important to the Lakers team are what he DOES TO OTHER TEAMS when on the court compared to when he is not. With Howard on court, opposing teams shoot worse, grab less offensive rebounds (Which eliminates your bullshit "Howard gives up too many second chance points nonsense) , get less assists, block less shots and perhaps the most notable stat, Howard drops opposing offensive ratings a whole 5 points. The only drawbacks are with Howard off the court, opposing teams generate .5% more steals and grab .8% more total rebounds.
And for fun, I want to net the difference to show the overall impact Howard has on both his team and opposing teams in the 2012-13 season and it shows Howard having nothing but positive numbers across the board except for assists.
Difference :
On-Off court
EFG%
+.030
ORB%
+0.7
DRB%
+0.7
TRB%
+1.5
AST%
-0.9
STL%
+1.1
BLK%
+1.7
TOV%
+1.8
ORTG%
+3.0
Overall on both sides of the court, Howard improved that Lakers team. The numbers don't lie, but you certainly do you dishonest shit heel.
And no one argues that Tim Duncan is not a great player. What's your point?
I rather point out your dishonest bullshit than try and figure out the formulas for per 100 possessions.
He finished a .1 worse than Tiago Splitter for Defensive rating that year. But never the less he finished the year playing better defense than a overwhelming majority of the NBA according to this stat. It wasn't his best season, but to say the Lakers needed to get rid of Howard because of some assumed step back is fucking stupid, dishonest bullshit and completely misses just how poorly Lakers like Kobe, Gasol, Nash, and Meta World Peace played that year defensively that set the team back.
Yeah, you have and the argument disregards facts for a reality you want to live in where Dwight Howard wasn't one of the best rebounders and defenders in the league in 2012-2013. Once you care to join me on Planet Earth feel free. We have cupcakes.
Another Ad Hom attack in lieu of an actual argument or evidence to support your assertions. May the world laugh at you and your pathetic understanding of Basketball.
Asik was stuck behind Noah who at the time was playing stellar basketball. If anything, Thibs squeezed as much as he could out of a 30 foot tall Hungarian light post who's only real skill is grabbing rebounds. (Even then the NBA has more players better at that than not.)
Saying Asik is nothing more than a glass grabber proves I lack basketball knowledge? What another shoddy attempt at Ad Hom which would make this the third one. Asik is hot garbage, but because of his size he'll keep a job and still meddle around with a career averages that don't even break the single digits.
It speaks more to how shallow the Center position is in terms of talent rather than Asik's ability.
He played so well he got a whopping whole 10 PPG and a whole 1.1 block per game. The only part of the game where Asik shined that year was rebounds, and even then Howard did that better on average. Not to mention Howard was a better scorer, and defender. To suggest Asik was a better player than Howard on any facet of the game is fucking foolish.
For fuck sake, that's because Howard is clearly the better player than Asik. You don't need to be an analyst or a rocket scientist to see that.
I've watched Asik play, and he isn't so much uninspired but it's evident he has none of the control that elite big men have. He's tall and lanky and being tall and lanky gives you a lot of leeway in terms of an NBA career.
You haven't even fucking proved he failed in LA. Even your thesis for your argument falls apart before you train wreck the argument with lies and dishonesty.
Wrong again. The Lakers as a team performed exceptionally offensively. But Defensively they were a shit show. A shit show that I have shown was in spite of Howard's stellar efforts, not as a result of his play.
You're either a prophet or a fool because a good majority of people had the Lakers pegged as favorites for the NBA finals.
The original system in mind was Mike Brown and the Princeton offense. But the Lakers being the Lakers fired Brown too early and brought in D'Antoni who wouldn't know what a D was if it smacked him across the face and shoved into his mouth.
I have no fucking clue how you manage to write that Nash has "surprisingly good passing ability" while believing Nash was brought in as a quality rebounder and defender off the wing. Nash is not any of those things, he never really been any of those things. Let me give you a crash course on what Steve Nash actually was and what the Lakers expected of him.
Steve Nash was in his hay day one of the best ball handlers of this generation and one could argue of all time. He was one of the best players in the pick and roll system and his passing ability in his prime was unmatched by anyone else. To top it all off, Nash was a fantastic shot and whenever he was sent to the free throw line he holds an NBA best at 92% The best skillset he had was controlling the offense and either getting everyone else open, or taking the open shot. But on the Lakers, where Kobe demands the offense runs through him, Nash had to limit himself to becoming a spot up shooter. It hurt his numbers across the board and he had no ability to cover either 1 or 2 guards. His last two years in LA were a total mess. Even in college people had Nash down as one of the worst defenders they've ever seen, let alone how bad 38 year old Nash was.
But I'm just fucking shocked that someone who takes every other chance to insist I haven't watched basketball thought Steve Nash was a "decent" passer but was a good defensive/rebounder.
Yao fucking Ming went to the All-Stars a year after he retired. "Fringe all-star numbers" for centers could literally be fucking 0 and you could have gone to the All-Stars. Fan opinion means total shit, and I couldn't care less how many all-stars Howard, Nash, or Bryant have gone too.
Fucking bullshit again, you fucking lying sack of shit. At the start of the year, Asik played at the five, and Howard at four. But Asik played like the glorified bean pole he was and injuries forced him to the bench in favor of a much better lineup up Terrance Jones at four, and Howard at five. Do you have an honest bone in your body, or do you just make shit up to suit your narrative?
Ad hom attempt number 4
But then again, what do I expect from a guy who thought Steve Nash was a defending/rebounding point guard (this would be an ad hom if it was entirely baseless. )
Ad hom number 5
Again from a guy who thought Nash was a defending/rebounding point guard.
Oh, is Defensive Player of the Year not awarded by who writers felt were the best defender in the NBA? I must have missed that change to the award process.
No wait, I didn't. You're just a twat.
If it ultimately came down to Statistics then why leave it up to a vote of 100+ sports writers? You don't need 100+ people to deduce who had the bigger numbers.
I'm gonna rattle off the past DPOY award winners and their defensive rating (again a rating you hold as sacred for a players defensive ability.) and list off the past DPOY awards for the past 25 years.
2014-15 - Leonard (1st in Drtg)
2013-14 - Noah (1st in Drtg)
2012-13 - Marc Gasol (5th)
2011-12 - Tyson Chandler (15th) [Should be noted Howard finished a .1 behind 15th as a Laker]
2010-11 - Howard (1st)
2009-10 - Howard (1st)
2008-09 - Howard (1st)
2007-08 - Kevin Garnett (1st)
2006-07 - Marcus Camby (3rd)
2005-06 - Ben Wallace (3rd)
2004-05 - Ben Wallace (3rd)
2003-04 - Ben Wallace (1st)
2002-03 - Ben Wallace (1st)
2001-02 - Ben Wallace (1st)
2000-01 - Dikembe Mutombo (11th)
1999-00 - Dikembe Mutombo (Not even in the top 20)
1998-99 - Alonzo Mourning (5th)
1997-98 - Dikembe Mutombo (13th)
1996-97 - Dikembe Mutombo (3rd)
1995-96 - Gary Payton (15th)
1994-95 - Dikembe Mutombo (16th)
1993-94 - Hakeem Olajuwon (4th)
1992-93 - Hakeem Olajuwon (2nd)
1991-92 - David Robinson (1st)
1990-91 - Dennis Rodman (4th)
2013-14 - Noah (1st in Drtg)
2012-13 - Marc Gasol (5th)
2011-12 - Tyson Chandler (15th) [Should be noted Howard finished a .1 behind 15th as a Laker]
2010-11 - Howard (1st)
2009-10 - Howard (1st)
2008-09 - Howard (1st)
2007-08 - Kevin Garnett (1st)
2006-07 - Marcus Camby (3rd)
2005-06 - Ben Wallace (3rd)
2004-05 - Ben Wallace (3rd)
2003-04 - Ben Wallace (1st)
2002-03 - Ben Wallace (1st)
2001-02 - Ben Wallace (1st)
2000-01 - Dikembe Mutombo (11th)
1999-00 - Dikembe Mutombo (Not even in the top 20)
1998-99 - Alonzo Mourning (5th)
1997-98 - Dikembe Mutombo (13th)
1996-97 - Dikembe Mutombo (3rd)
1995-96 - Gary Payton (15th)
1994-95 - Dikembe Mutombo (16th)
1993-94 - Hakeem Olajuwon (4th)
1992-93 - Hakeem Olajuwon (2nd)
1991-92 - David Robinson (1st)
1990-91 - Dennis Rodman (4th)
Now for the past 25 years, only a mere 40% of the DPOY award winners finished first in defensive rating. A rating YOU CLAIMED that everyone and anyone can see. It didn't need me lierally listing off the past 25 years to show you that the award is given subjectively more than objectively or based on any standard one can reach with statistics.
You're right, you can't. Because ultimately the award goes to whoever the writers thought was the best defensive player. Not by a measurable statistic or number like you want to think you dishonest turd burglar.
Hey Phenom, I know you know how to use the quote button. If you wanna talk to me instead of talking about me, I'm all ears.
Yes, stats can be used to determine one's ability to play basketball. Can you argue otherwise? Statistically, Steve Nash is one of the best free throw shooters in NBA history. And then you can watch literally all of his free throws and see that Nash is as good at free throws as his numbers present. Now argue that statistics can't be used to judge talent or piss off.
Seeing as you tried arguing statutory rape isn't "that bad" it is within reason to assume you would argue Iverson was a solid defender.
Or we could look at AI's numbers and see aside from steals AI played a weak defense. But again, I'm not arguing AI was a good defender, this is just the strawman you need to use because you're the human equivalent of a door knob.
It's clear that AI is much better at defense than say a Steve Nash or a James Harden, but I wouldn't call Harden great. Again, care to actually refute anything I said, Jared Fogle?
I don't need to talk to you. You don't know what you're talking about. It would be like having a conversation with a child. You lost all creditability when you said that Kobe wasn't one of the greatest of all time. Then, like this proved your point or something, you said he wasn't even the greatest Laker of all time. Which he isn't the absolute greatest Laker, but he's third behind Abdul-Jabbar and Magic Johnson, who IMO are interchangeable. Lets put it this way, if we were to go position by position and pick 2 from every one to decide the 10 best players; Kobe would be on that list as the 2nd greatest SG behing Jordan. So, no there is no use to speak to you.
Hyorinmaru
Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
Sweet Christ pancake how long did that novel take to write?
Ah, when in doubt just ad hominem, shit on the table and walk away. Didn't expect anything more from you, honestly.
How meaningful does "Best player in team history" become if you can just swap out Jabbar for Magic, or Kobe and vice versa? Listing someone who was "the best in team history" ultimately ends up being opinion. An opinion you can ground in reason sure but ultimately everyone arbitrarily which stats are more important, if titles are more important, or even if stars of past generations like Jabbar could hold up against the elite today. But honestly if we compare the legacy of Jabbar, and the legacy of Bryant and it's easy to see Jabbar played better than Kobe and offered more consistent play.
You're a simple guy, I'll use a simple tally so even you can keep up.
More championships: Jabbar
More Rebounds: Jabbar
More Blocks: Jabbar
Higher FG%: Jabbar
More Points: Kobe
Higher PER: Jabbar
More Steals: Kobe
More 3Pts: Kobe
Now in case you can't count, the tally ends up being Jabbar 5, Kobe 3. Sure you can weigh whichever stat as differently as you like, but those are the facts as they presently stand.
About two hours I think. But then again, it takes time to fact check and actually go through the numbers instead of just conjuring bullshit from the sky like I'm a cow shaman.
Hyorinmaru
Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
You'll have to break it down for me.
I'm trying to follow this but when I tried to read that my eyes went cross-eyed
Thanks for agreeing with me. I said Abdul-Jabbar and Magic Johnson were better than Kobe. As I said, he's the third greatest Laker behind those two, who IMO are interchangeable. Did you miss that or something?
You're right, you shouldn't have expected anymore participation from me when you said that Kobe wasn't one of the greatest of all time. I mean, I literally stopped reading everything you wrote after that because it was clear you had no fucking clue what you were talking about. God Bless J.J., he has more patience then I do. He's tried so hard to explain to you how Howard just wasn't a good fit for the Lakers and how he wasn't nearly as good that year, but I guess you just like arguing for the sake of it. Then I tried to explain to you how all of the Lakers woes can be attributed to Jim Buss, which they can but you still want to argue that Kobe is at blame for everything. I even conceded and agreed with you that yes, Kobe did run Howard out of LA and you even had to argue about that. I just don't want to argue anymore. As I said awhile back, its OK to blindly hate Kobe, we've all done it to someone and sometime. Just call it what it is. Shit, I can't stand Lebron James at all and I could make a convincing argument about how he's ruined the entire NBA by going to Miami and how everything that Cleveland is going through is his fault, but honestly, its just because he's that good that I blindly hate him. I still respect him, however, which is something Kobe should have earned from any NBA fan. People gonna hate though.
John McCass
You talkin' to me?
It's BK, Coco.
How can someone one of the greatest of all time without being the greatest of his team's history?
That's because I think you have no honest way of contributing to any actual discussion.
If you literally stopped reading my post how can you say with complete honesty that my points, the statistics, and the numbers are not valid? To suggest my points have no merit without even reading this is dishonest.
Unless of course you're being hyperbolic, in which case you can piss off and actually bring up something worthwhile.
Too bad god hates J.J and burdened him with the curse of lacking a honest bone in his body.
And statistically that's a bunch of horse shit. The only explanation J.J offered was "you had to watch all of the Lakers games and see the little examples I picked out that prove Howard was a doo doo head. Take my word for it." Which is bullshit and I demonstrated it to be bullshit.
Then of course JJ stringed a ton of lies together and presented them as fact. Because I'm an asshole and like rubbing salt into JJ's wound like my name is Leatherface, I'm gonna list off his lies, misinformation, and general stupidity for you.
1)He suggested Howard was weak with offensive rebounds. (Which he wasn't)
2)Then he claimed Howard was the reason why Pau's numbers dropped (until of course I called that bullshit out.)
3) Next, JJ claimed Howard and the Lakers didn't run the Pick and Run. (They did, and they were a top 10 team in the Pick and Roll.) He called the Laker's offense "clumsy" in spite of the fact they were a top 10 offensive team.
4) JJ then asserted Howard's game hurt Asik's ability. (Until it was proven Asik didn't have much "ability" in the first place.)
5) JJ accused Howard of hurting his team around him with his play. (Which was proven false.)
6) Then after several posts of me schooling his ass on the Lakers 2012-13 season, JJ changed his tune (i.e lied) to assert Howard wanting more touches forced the coaching staff to bench Gasol. (Which is false, and proven false with statistics and even D'Antoni himself preferring Earl Clark over Gasol.)
7a) JJ lied and said the offense didn't run consistently (Which they did. If they didn't, the Lakers wouldn't have been the sixth best scoring team that year.)
7b) Thought the Lakers defensive woes laid on Howard's shoulders (Proven wrong when it was shown the Lakers played better defense with Howard on the court. Least we mention the spectacularly bad defense played by the rest of the Lakers.)
8) JJ lied and said Howard had troubles exploding on defense thanks to potential nerve damage. (Which is bullshit I showed to be wrong by presenting his averages were consistent with the stats he had in 2011-12.)
9) JJ asserted that Howard had issues grabbing defensive rebounds (Which is more bullshit due to the fact Howard grabbed more defensive rebounds than anyone else that season.)
10) More bullshit from JJ implying the Lakers did better with Howard on the court. (Which recently I gave him the numbers to show that not only did the Lakers perform better, but opposing teams played worse when Howard was on the court. Which of course included that Howard in 2012-2013 took 5 points off a team's offensive rating. )
11) JJ suggested Howard's defense dipped hurt the Lakers more than Kobe's or Nash's and used his drop in Defensive rating to support it. (Which was proven to be bullshit when you look at Kobe and Nash's astronomically low rating.)
12) Again repeated that Howard didn't live up to Lakers standards. (Well in spite of the fact Howard out performed the vast majority of the NBA in most categories to measure a Center.)
13) Oh yeah, claimed Steve Nash's talents weren't ball handling and passing but rather defense and rebounds. (L OH FUCKING L)
14) Called Asik "decent" (Asik is fucking garbage.)
15) Suggested The Defensive Player of the Year went to the player with the best Defensive rating. (Which I showed not be the case for the past 25 fucking years.)
I could go on longer, I'm sure but that's just the footnotes version of the arguments you said you literally didn't read. If you want I can find a 15 year old girl who can read my posts for you. I'm sure that'll engage you more than actual reading.
I like being correct for the sake of being correct.
They can be attributed to Jim Buss appeasing Kobe Bryant, and the attitude Kobe Bryant created to make Jim Buss' job even harder. It isn't a surprise that so many free agents worth a shit like Aldridge won't sign with Buss' team because they knew playing with Kobe pulling all the strings would be a shit show. And behold, the Lakers a shit show.
It wasn't just Kobe but the Laker fan base as well ran their best player out of the city.
Then either don't fucking reply to me, or make little backhanded quips about me.
Except "blind" hate would imply the hate is irrational or misplaced. Your inability to process new information at a higher brain function than that of a sea sponge isn't my fault.
How does the best player in the NBA moving to another team ruin the NBA? Hall of Famers from every generation changed teams all the time. Jordan, Jabbar, Chamberlain, Patrick Ewing, Malone, Shaq, and Bill Walton all played for different teams. The NBA as a product grew because of it.
I don't owe Kobe Bryant shit. He's a talented shooter, and at one point was one of the best elite two guards of all time on both sides of the floor. But at the same time there was no one as egotistical, selfish, and his persona feels about as authentic as the water in Flint Michigan.
So then in your opinion there are only 30 players that can be considered as a greatest of all time in the entire history of the NBA? You're worse than I thought.
I'm glad you think that. You're wrong, but hey, that's nothing new for you.
I did bring up something worthwhile.
That's a little harsh don't you think?
I never once argued against your stats.
Again, I never once argued with your stats because stats are only part of the story, not the whole thing. Where were the results from this great Howard that joined the Lakers? The results weren't good because like it or not, Howard wasn't a good fit for L.A. and he found that out for himself.
Source: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/24/sports/la-sp-plaschke-lakers-20130425
This was the L.A. Times assessment of Howard after Game 2 of the first round of the playoffs against the Spurs. To some of the points you had against J.J. (I went back and brushed up on them), there was no Bryant to hog the ball in this game so this great player who was better than Bryant should've led L.A. Where was he?
See, the regular season didn't mean shit that season in L.A. That's what you and J.J. both fail to understand. Unless, of course, they lost a lot, and they did. Why? Because D'antoni, who's system has never worked for the playoffs and who shouldn't have been the coach in the first place (somehow that's Kobe's fault right?), was not suited to coach the pieces he had and Howard wasn't a good fit in L.A. Here is my proof of that.
Source: http://nba.nbcsports.com/2013/07/11...rs-in-part-because-kobe-would-not-pass-torch/
This is NBC's assessment of Dwight Howard in L.A. As I said, Kobe was part of the problem, but there was a lot more to it than that. But hey, stats right?
I can find ESPN videos of the analysts saying the same thing or NBA TV videos or TNT Inside the NBA videos of Shaq, Kenny, and Chuck saying the same things. But they're all wrong right, because stats? As I said, Jim Buss was and still is the problem of the Lakers.
Ouch, that hurt my feelings. I'm gonna tell. I mean that's what we're reduced to when you debate like a child. Point, quip, point, insult, point. Oh, I forgot where we were at. I'm sorry to expect more.
Congrats, yours stats were right, but your assessment of their results, which is what matters, was not.
Maybe you're right. Maybe Kobe should've been gone long ago, but still it was Jim Buss's decision to keep him around. I have to ask, you don't seriously believe that the Lakers had a chance at Aldridge do you because if you really do, you're hopeless.
Source: http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/7/1/8880343/lamarcus-aldridge-los-angeles-lakers-nba-free-agency
While this report does say that Aldridge didn't gel with Kobe, it also says that the Lakers organization (Jim Buss) didn't focus enough on basketball. It also says that Aldridge was always leaning towards joining the Spurs the whole time. I believe this is the same article you quoted to me once before. Convenient for you to leave out the rest.
Maybe that's true, but that was because the Lakers couldn't win with their supposed "best player". You have to understand that Lakers fans are used to winning championships and that season, with the signings of Nash and Howard, was going to be championship or bust.
You're right, I apologize.
But your hate of Kobe is blind. I've already shown above how Howard was a bad fit and that Kobe isn't to blame for all of the Lakers' problems, but again, it's all Kobe, right?
Jordan doesn't really belong on this list because when he played for the Wizards, he didn't make an impact. Sure he was still an above average player, but he wasn't His Airness anymore.
See, what Lebron did when he went to Miami was create problems for the rest of the league. When he went to Miami to join two other All-Stars, he made it necessary for other teams to compete with them to become "Super Teams". So now, teams are going out of their ways to sign multiple all-stars and their bidding their futures to win championships immediately instead of building up to it. That's what the Nets did and now they're fucked. That's what the Knicks did and now they're rebuilding. That's what the Spurs have done this season and that's what Cleveland has done. Also, when Lebron made that move, he made it impossible for small market teams to compete. So the Bucks, Timberwolves, and Hornets of the world don't have a chance in hell of competing for a championship. He made it so the same teams year in and year out are expected to win. Also, he made it the norm to for players to except less money to do this which the players association have repeatedly been against. Like it or not, Lebron created a lot of issues for the league when he went to Miami.
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, however, it's a sad day when one of the greatest players in NBA history can't get your respect. You don't have to like Kobe. I'm not sure I like Kobe, but I do respect what he's accomplished. BTW, I love his old school persona and that's one thing I'm definitely going to miss when he retires from the NBA.
Phenom and J.J, I just laughed and enjoyed everyone of your debate posts as it's everything I wanted to say and more but just couldn't find the words. Stats are cool and all ( I mean i'll brag about Kobe being 3rd all time scorer anytime) but you truly had to watch the Lakers the season Dwight played to understand how Lakers fans could be so frustrated. The fact that he wanted so much to be a big part of the offense was a good thing to start off with but obviously the team couldn't play their best that way and Dwight never got that. Pushing Pau to 6th man was the second worst mistake that year aside from not signing Phil Jackson. Even though Lakers made a run once he moved to the bench, it wasn't the right thing going for a playoff game and hurt the chemistry even more. If Dwight realised he could've averaged 20 points by almost Pick n Roll alone then Lakers could of done something. His body obviously limited him defensively (mainly the first half of the season) but his effort wasn't there all the time either. Dwight didn't help himself either by not making the best comments to the media, usually coming off as whiny. I love Dwight and never hated Dwight for leaving L.A but he wasn't the same person he billed as coming in. A fraction of it at best.
Dwyane Wade as publically come out and said that Lebron might be the best player in the game today but Kobe is the greatest player of our era. Which says it all in itself when you have somehow who played with another future HOFer and considered to be a top 10 talent as well says that the one he played against was better.
Dwyane Wade as publically come out and said that Lebron might be the best player in the game today but Kobe is the greatest player of our era. Which says it all in itself when you have somehow who played with another future HOFer and considered to be a top 10 talent as well says that the one he played against was better.
I'm going to start this out by saying watch some games from that season. To be honest with you I don't care about your numbers when I was constantly looking at a flaw in Dwight's game that didn't exist the season before.
1): Remember my argument about agility? Howard was often moving around the offensive half court too damn slow. Which falls back on how slow he was moving in comparison to previous seasons.
2): He was setting ball screens but slipping off too early, which caused them to miss many points off the p&r. But I'm not going to fully blame him because Nash needed to knock down open shots more than he did.
3): So what happens when Nash misses? The extra room the defense yields to defend the shooter makes it easier for Howard to rebound a miss when he rolls to the hoop. But you know what happened often times? It ended up being a missed opportunity to get the offensive board, why? Because he's not in position to get the rebound.
Which is why analysts and fans were yelling Lakers weakness of getting offensive boards and second chance baskets. So what does Howard do? Commit silly fouls when he tries to adjust too late.
And this happened constantly which is why he stayed on foul trouble or fouled out of games. This is why I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt with recovering from injuries. But you insist he was playing on an elite level - because what you're seeing and what I'm seeing in Howard vs past season's isn't going to always show on the stat sheet.
It's stuff like this that actually happened in live games and trying to defend it by saying; "well the stats show...blazie blah blah" is asinine. And it dispels your simple minded approach to the game of basketball.
Maybe Howard let Barkley and Shaq get into his head about him not being a post player. Howard still did not want to run the offense, so they start feeding him more in the post. Which wasn't a brilliant idea because he's not a traditional back to the basket player. The result? Failure.
So it was nearing the end of the season before Howard bought into the system fully plus barring injuries to him and Nash were able to successfully start executing the p&r.
So what ultimately worked best for Howard going down the stretch was good ball movement instead of trying to rely on putbacks and post play.
Your claim that Dwight was elite that season
It's obvious coming in that Howard is a big upgrade over Bynum and his 75 year old knees. A defensive force who possess great defensive mobility which is something the Lakers were obviously lacking. But I want to go back to comparing his Orlando and Laker differences.
It's often times if the Magic were playing against a more top tier point guard; in transition, Howard would often times have no problem stepping way out on the perimeter.
So let's take a look at him in LA:
Westbrook and Durant decide to run a p&r that ultimately bullies Howard. What I want you to notice is he isn't at the perimeter or the foul line he's at the fucking dotted line. So he decides to slide up to the foul line to have this happen to him:
https://youtu.be/3KWxGR_n45U
So in the same game you have Dwight who decides to not even play defense on a catch and shoot. Keep your eye on the shot clock and tell me why Howard stood there dumbfounded?
https://youtu.be/2ok322YcJvk
So what is Dwight doing wrong? He's sacrificing too much space around the FT line and allowing OKC to do anything. P&R, allowing himself to get crossed-over, blown past and what I pointed out in my last post, going belly up.
Here's some more elite defense by Howard, getting killed yet again on a p&r with very little defense. It's also safe to say he was in foul trouble like always.
I just want you to know he played like this throughout the season consistently.
https://youtu.be/pLLO4Fs95UA
Now below this is the same game, just in the second half of play which is how Howard should be playing. On this play look how Howard doesn't belly up but he shifts(something I've pointed out in previous posts that he often failed to do on defense that season) to Durants left side, then the shift over top of the foul line as Durant begins to drive. What does Howard do? He forces him to stay to the left.
https://youtu.be/L6YRq7CH99s
They played a much smaller lineup against the Lakers and it's crazy because in the playoffs the season before that OKC wouldn't have dared done that. That OKC team was not worried about anyone on the floor that night but Nash and Bryant.
The thing about games like that when you start throwing around statistics to back up your silly argument is they lost. Howard might've snagged 16 boards but they lost, not only did they lose but he fouled out. Not only did they lose and he fouled out but he was a non-factor on offense.
So Dwight's impact that game:
16 rebounds(which I want to add the Lakers had more boards than OKC mainly because OKC was playing small ball)
Fouled out
Little impact offensively
Piss poor defense
They lost
This is why I say you have very little knowledge of basketball. It's not the fans or analysts that truly understand the game that's the problem - it's people like you that don't know what they're talking about.
I don't give a damn if Dwight had 35 rebounds and 9 blocks, if he was letting guys get the best of him in semi-transition and on p&r and not shifting then all those rebounds and blocks are meaningless if he's sitting on the bench fouled out with 4 minutes left in the game. THAT'S what frustrated Laker fans about Howard. Not your ridiculously stupid perception that he was an elite player that year.
See the thing is your statistical version of an elite Dwight Howard did not show up until a month left in the season and you know why they improved significantly down the stretch? Because Gasol came back.
The funny part about this sentiment is a lot of teams found Dwight's presence inferior that season. Mixed with dumb fouls, getting ejected from a game they needed to win, going around the locker room complaining about shot attempts, wanting your coach fired and your team's best player amnestied. Suggesting stupid shit like that during the season and then emphasizing on it after season in contract talks. Yeah sounds like a winners mentality to me.
Apart from his defensive woes the funny part is Kobe Bryant A guy who has 5 championships and you're arguing that he doesn't care. Again, never saw them as a legitimate championship team.
Because they weren't on the same page, obviously.
[/quote]Howard didn't have to share the paint with Gasol because D'Antoni didn't like Gasol's playstyle in the first place. As far as I'm aware, Howard was irrelevant to the amount of mintues Gasol got.[/quote]
Howard did share the paint with Gasol but Gasol preferred playing center instead of manning the 4 and because it was obvious he wasn't a good fit at that position in that offense. D had him come off the bench at the center position instead with just as many minutes he would've got as a starter and by the second half of the season looked better. The result? He played extremely well down the stretch.
Oh bullshit. This guy openly complained about not getting more touches and feeling the Laker offense should primarily run through him you're defending it with that argument?
What's dishonest is you not acknowledging Gasol's play improved tremendously with him coming off the bench at center instead of starting at PF.
It did not translate well with him playing the 4. Look at him in the second half of the season.
Look above
I'm playing the role as devil's advocate. But it's quite evident all Laker fans were looking for a scapegoat that season, that much is obvious.
Was never going to put the Lakers above the Spurs that season.
That won't change until he retires everybody knows that.
I never overlooked his abilities but I'm not going to be ignorant and say he played up to his level. His numbers should've been far better than 'close' or 'similar' to his Orlando numbers given he was playing with better players.
Look at how he played the last month and a half of season vs the first half - taking away the injuries that's how people wanted to see him play. That's why the feeling that he didn't play up to the level everyone was expecting. What I pointed out in terms of his agility and the team's lack of getting second chance points is a true assessment.
The injuries, the inconsistencies - pissed off Laker fans. Yeah he ran the p&r but honestly Gasol executed it better. Dwight had a preference of wanting more of a low post offense.
If you're referring to him finishing second in offensive boards his year with the Lakers the only dishonest bullshit is what you just said.
The issue was their offensive boards and second chance points - if you didn't watch the games at that season you're not going to know. Your argument is dishonest and utter bullshit. I can collect 8 offensive rebounds one game and 4 over the next 3 games and we lose in those efforts and I foul out in one of those. Seeing as that happened along those lines during that season.
The irony about what you just said is Rockets played extremely well last season without Howard who missed half of the games. Terrence Jones finally emerged, Donatas Motiejunas bringing a scoring threat in the low post and Josh Smith brought a much needed defensive versatility and bench scoring.
Jones showed he has good ball handling and Motiejunas passing skills to play 4 on 3 against the opposing players that are not busy doubling Harden on the perimeter. Since Howard isn't an option as a playmaker facing the basket.
Which is partly why I never had them etched in as a championship contender.
Still doesn't dispel what I didn't see in Howard that season. If it was all that easy when it comes to analyzing players then these teams need to just do away with scouts who physically see these people play and just assess every player off analytics.
Yeah that crock of shit argument was put to bed.
The scapegoat was everyone but Kobe. D'Antoni mainly caught it and Howard's silly comments in contract negotiations sealed it.
Your argument serves nothing more than you have no idea about the NBA or the game of basketball beyond pulling statistics from a website.
Probably does have to do with terrible free throw shooting and that burning image of him getting ejected in the playoffs while the team was already without Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash, Metta World Peace, Steve Blake and Jodie Meeks.
Oh please stop making Dwight out to be the victim when he was apart of the problem just like the rest. Nobody denied the team woes as a whole in the season and a lot of fans disliked Howard for reasons that goes beyond his play. For starters it was complaining to your coach about not wanting to run a p&r offense and being a baby about not getting enough touches after a loss despite fouling out the same fucking game.
Everyone including Dwight himself have indicated he didn't start to play up to his true level until around the end of the season. Which is what upsets so many about him and the rest of the team.
You're pulling shit out the air because there was nowhere I indicated Asik was a better rebounder.
If you don't watch the games you won't see what I see that much is certain. Nobody is throwing out that Dwight played 'elite' that season. Or that Dwight wanted to win. If Dwight wanted to win as you argued earlier - going 3-14 at the FT line isn't going to help. Kobe's lack of d, along with Nash's and Howard's piss poor FT shooting is still giving up points in a game regardless of how you want to spin it.
Obviously you don't know what in transition means to understand what I was referencing.
The funny part is you say that as if Kobe's offensive numbers were mediocre.
And all that shit you're spouting about Dwight is useless if he's not in the game at the end because he has fouled out or is missing significant minutes during a game because he's in early foul trouble. Nobody on that team had remotely close to the amount of fouls he did. You can argue that till you're blue in the face but it's meaningless.
Watch the clips.
More utter bullshit that doesn't dispel my original argument.
On paper it all looks good but it still doesn't justify what I've been saying about Dwight in LA
And this is all coming from a guy whose done nothing but provide me with information from pro basketball data website to defend against what I and all basketball fans saw that season.
Worked out better for him in Houston that was the point, what are you disputing?
Asik was the best defensive player on that team and on the glass before Dwight.
Actually it was for his ability because they were banking on him for rebounds and to be a rim protector. Mix that with a loophole in the CBA and you end up with a guy who got you 11 boards a night while manning down the paint.
Never indicated he was better than Howard but given this was a team which hadn't had a decent Center since Yao Ming - to squeeze what they did out of him for the bargain they got him for exceeded expectations.
Nowhere did I dispute that obviously.
Read all my 'lies and dishonesty' above.
The Lakers as a team played exceptional as you put it the second half of the season but they were not good fit. Antwan Jamison did not fit into that offense, neither did Jodie Meeks and often times they'd be out multiple games at a time despite being decent players. Since you don't watch any games to identify this, I'll give you a hint. It'lljust show unrecorded data next to their names on the boxscore.
Both Coaches dealt with several obstacles including a swarm of injuries, and neither coaches had the the skill sets to sufficiently adapt to the personnel. They both failed to best accentuate their team's strengths and, to the best of their ability, hide their weakness.
As they did with the 03-04 Lakers. I never felt Dwight was going to co-exist with Kobe, which ultimately ended up being partially correct.
Mike Brown had no offensive system. They brought in the guy from Wizards(whose name slips my mind) to teach the Princeton offense. Kobe liked it, Antawn Jamison was likely a product of it in the past while the rest of the struggled to adapt to it. Do I agree with his firing? Not 4 or 5 games in but it was clear Mike Brown was never a long term solution.
The Princeton offense does not work for guys that age. Taking a look back through the preseason and early regular season. Too much motion and inability to create separation on the floor.
Shows your lack of comprehending, that was a Asik description not a Steve Nash description because it's based off this quote of yours:
Laughable
What's dishonest? If you weren't such a fucking troll you'd see I am acknowledging Asik's position at center. Howard was playing the 4 and they moved Asik to the bench to move Howard to his natural position.
What do I expect from a moron that misquoted me
That was what I was responding to you God damn moron.
See above
No what makes it idiotic is you feel it should be determined strictly by statistics which I strongly disagree. Then again the rest of the basketball world actually watches the game instead of basing their thesis strictly off statistical measures.
Learn the game.
1): Remember my argument about agility? Howard was often moving around the offensive half court too damn slow. Which falls back on how slow he was moving in comparison to previous seasons.
2): He was setting ball screens but slipping off too early, which caused them to miss many points off the p&r. But I'm not going to fully blame him because Nash needed to knock down open shots more than he did.
3): So what happens when Nash misses? The extra room the defense yields to defend the shooter makes it easier for Howard to rebound a miss when he rolls to the hoop. But you know what happened often times? It ended up being a missed opportunity to get the offensive board, why? Because he's not in position to get the rebound.
Which is why analysts and fans were yelling Lakers weakness of getting offensive boards and second chance baskets. So what does Howard do? Commit silly fouls when he tries to adjust too late.
And this happened constantly which is why he stayed on foul trouble or fouled out of games. This is why I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt with recovering from injuries. But you insist he was playing on an elite level - because what you're seeing and what I'm seeing in Howard vs past season's isn't going to always show on the stat sheet.
It's stuff like this that actually happened in live games and trying to defend it by saying; "well the stats show...blazie blah blah" is asinine. And it dispels your simple minded approach to the game of basketball.
Maybe Howard let Barkley and Shaq get into his head about him not being a post player. Howard still did not want to run the offense, so they start feeding him more in the post. Which wasn't a brilliant idea because he's not a traditional back to the basket player. The result? Failure.
So it was nearing the end of the season before Howard bought into the system fully plus barring injuries to him and Nash were able to successfully start executing the p&r.
So what ultimately worked best for Howard going down the stretch was good ball movement instead of trying to rely on putbacks and post play.
Your claim that Dwight was elite that season
It's obvious coming in that Howard is a big upgrade over Bynum and his 75 year old knees. A defensive force who possess great defensive mobility which is something the Lakers were obviously lacking. But I want to go back to comparing his Orlando and Laker differences.
It's often times if the Magic were playing against a more top tier point guard; in transition, Howard would often times have no problem stepping way out on the perimeter.
So let's take a look at him in LA:
Westbrook and Durant decide to run a p&r that ultimately bullies Howard. What I want you to notice is he isn't at the perimeter or the foul line he's at the fucking dotted line. So he decides to slide up to the foul line to have this happen to him:
https://youtu.be/3KWxGR_n45U
So in the same game you have Dwight who decides to not even play defense on a catch and shoot. Keep your eye on the shot clock and tell me why Howard stood there dumbfounded?
https://youtu.be/2ok322YcJvk
So what is Dwight doing wrong? He's sacrificing too much space around the FT line and allowing OKC to do anything. P&R, allowing himself to get crossed-over, blown past and what I pointed out in my last post, going belly up.
Here's some more elite defense by Howard, getting killed yet again on a p&r with very little defense. It's also safe to say he was in foul trouble like always.
I just want you to know he played like this throughout the season consistently.
https://youtu.be/pLLO4Fs95UA
Now below this is the same game, just in the second half of play which is how Howard should be playing. On this play look how Howard doesn't belly up but he shifts(something I've pointed out in previous posts that he often failed to do on defense that season) to Durants left side, then the shift over top of the foul line as Durant begins to drive. What does Howard do? He forces him to stay to the left.
https://youtu.be/L6YRq7CH99s
They played a much smaller lineup against the Lakers and it's crazy because in the playoffs the season before that OKC wouldn't have dared done that. That OKC team was not worried about anyone on the floor that night but Nash and Bryant.
The thing about games like that when you start throwing around statistics to back up your silly argument is they lost. Howard might've snagged 16 boards but they lost, not only did they lose but he fouled out. Not only did they lose and he fouled out but he was a non-factor on offense.
So Dwight's impact that game:
16 rebounds(which I want to add the Lakers had more boards than OKC mainly because OKC was playing small ball)
Fouled out
Little impact offensively
Piss poor defense
They lost
This is why I say you have very little knowledge of basketball. It's not the fans or analysts that truly understand the game that's the problem - it's people like you that don't know what they're talking about.
I don't give a damn if Dwight had 35 rebounds and 9 blocks, if he was letting guys get the best of him in semi-transition and on p&r and not shifting then all those rebounds and blocks are meaningless if he's sitting on the bench fouled out with 4 minutes left in the game. THAT'S what frustrated Laker fans about Howard. Not your ridiculously stupid perception that he was an elite player that year.
See the thing is your statistical version of an elite Dwight Howard did not show up until a month left in the season and you know why they improved significantly down the stretch? Because Gasol came back.
The funny part about this sentiment is a lot of teams found Dwight's presence inferior that season. Mixed with dumb fouls, getting ejected from a game they needed to win, going around the locker room complaining about shot attempts, wanting your coach fired and your team's best player amnestied. Suggesting stupid shit like that during the season and then emphasizing on it after season in contract talks. Yeah sounds like a winners mentality to me.
Apart from his defensive woes the funny part is Kobe Bryant A guy who has 5 championships and you're arguing that he doesn't care. Again, never saw them as a legitimate championship team.
Because they weren't on the same page, obviously.
[/quote]Howard didn't have to share the paint with Gasol because D'Antoni didn't like Gasol's playstyle in the first place. As far as I'm aware, Howard was irrelevant to the amount of mintues Gasol got.[/quote]
Howard did share the paint with Gasol but Gasol preferred playing center instead of manning the 4 and because it was obvious he wasn't a good fit at that position in that offense. D had him come off the bench at the center position instead with just as many minutes he would've got as a starter and by the second half of the season looked better. The result? He played extremely well down the stretch.
Oh bullshit. This guy openly complained about not getting more touches and feeling the Laker offense should primarily run through him you're defending it with that argument?
What's dishonest is you not acknowledging Gasol's play improved tremendously with him coming off the bench at center instead of starting at PF.
It did not translate well with him playing the 4. Look at him in the second half of the season.
Look above
I'm playing the role as devil's advocate. But it's quite evident all Laker fans were looking for a scapegoat that season, that much is obvious.
Was never going to put the Lakers above the Spurs that season.
That won't change until he retires everybody knows that.
I never overlooked his abilities but I'm not going to be ignorant and say he played up to his level. His numbers should've been far better than 'close' or 'similar' to his Orlando numbers given he was playing with better players.
Look at how he played the last month and a half of season vs the first half - taking away the injuries that's how people wanted to see him play. That's why the feeling that he didn't play up to the level everyone was expecting. What I pointed out in terms of his agility and the team's lack of getting second chance points is a true assessment.
The injuries, the inconsistencies - pissed off Laker fans. Yeah he ran the p&r but honestly Gasol executed it better. Dwight had a preference of wanting more of a low post offense.
If you're referring to him finishing second in offensive boards his year with the Lakers the only dishonest bullshit is what you just said.
The issue was their offensive boards and second chance points - if you didn't watch the games at that season you're not going to know. Your argument is dishonest and utter bullshit. I can collect 8 offensive rebounds one game and 4 over the next 3 games and we lose in those efforts and I foul out in one of those. Seeing as that happened along those lines during that season.
The irony about what you just said is Rockets played extremely well last season without Howard who missed half of the games. Terrence Jones finally emerged, Donatas Motiejunas bringing a scoring threat in the low post and Josh Smith brought a much needed defensive versatility and bench scoring.
Jones showed he has good ball handling and Motiejunas passing skills to play 4 on 3 against the opposing players that are not busy doubling Harden on the perimeter. Since Howard isn't an option as a playmaker facing the basket.
Which is partly why I never had them etched in as a championship contender.
Still doesn't dispel what I didn't see in Howard that season. If it was all that easy when it comes to analyzing players then these teams need to just do away with scouts who physically see these people play and just assess every player off analytics.
Yeah that crock of shit argument was put to bed.
The scapegoat was everyone but Kobe. D'Antoni mainly caught it and Howard's silly comments in contract negotiations sealed it.
Your argument serves nothing more than you have no idea about the NBA or the game of basketball beyond pulling statistics from a website.
Probably does have to do with terrible free throw shooting and that burning image of him getting ejected in the playoffs while the team was already without Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash, Metta World Peace, Steve Blake and Jodie Meeks.
Oh please stop making Dwight out to be the victim when he was apart of the problem just like the rest. Nobody denied the team woes as a whole in the season and a lot of fans disliked Howard for reasons that goes beyond his play. For starters it was complaining to your coach about not wanting to run a p&r offense and being a baby about not getting enough touches after a loss despite fouling out the same fucking game.
Everyone including Dwight himself have indicated he didn't start to play up to his true level until around the end of the season. Which is what upsets so many about him and the rest of the team.
You're pulling shit out the air because there was nowhere I indicated Asik was a better rebounder.
If you don't watch the games you won't see what I see that much is certain. Nobody is throwing out that Dwight played 'elite' that season. Or that Dwight wanted to win. If Dwight wanted to win as you argued earlier - going 3-14 at the FT line isn't going to help. Kobe's lack of d, along with Nash's and Howard's piss poor FT shooting is still giving up points in a game regardless of how you want to spin it.
Obviously you don't know what in transition means to understand what I was referencing.
The funny part is you say that as if Kobe's offensive numbers were mediocre.
And all that shit you're spouting about Dwight is useless if he's not in the game at the end because he has fouled out or is missing significant minutes during a game because he's in early foul trouble. Nobody on that team had remotely close to the amount of fouls he did. You can argue that till you're blue in the face but it's meaningless.
Watch the clips.
More utter bullshit that doesn't dispel my original argument.
On paper it all looks good but it still doesn't justify what I've been saying about Dwight in LA
And this is all coming from a guy whose done nothing but provide me with information from pro basketball data website to defend against what I and all basketball fans saw that season.
Worked out better for him in Houston that was the point, what are you disputing?
Asik was the best defensive player on that team and on the glass before Dwight.
Actually it was for his ability because they were banking on him for rebounds and to be a rim protector. Mix that with a loophole in the CBA and you end up with a guy who got you 11 boards a night while manning down the paint.
Never indicated he was better than Howard but given this was a team which hadn't had a decent Center since Yao Ming - to squeeze what they did out of him for the bargain they got him for exceeded expectations.
Nowhere did I dispute that obviously.
Read all my 'lies and dishonesty' above.
The Lakers as a team played exceptional as you put it the second half of the season but they were not good fit. Antwan Jamison did not fit into that offense, neither did Jodie Meeks and often times they'd be out multiple games at a time despite being decent players. Since you don't watch any games to identify this, I'll give you a hint. It'lljust show unrecorded data next to their names on the boxscore.
Both Coaches dealt with several obstacles including a swarm of injuries, and neither coaches had the the skill sets to sufficiently adapt to the personnel. They both failed to best accentuate their team's strengths and, to the best of their ability, hide their weakness.
As they did with the 03-04 Lakers. I never felt Dwight was going to co-exist with Kobe, which ultimately ended up being partially correct.
Mike Brown had no offensive system. They brought in the guy from Wizards(whose name slips my mind) to teach the Princeton offense. Kobe liked it, Antawn Jamison was likely a product of it in the past while the rest of the struggled to adapt to it. Do I agree with his firing? Not 4 or 5 games in but it was clear Mike Brown was never a long term solution.
The Princeton offense does not work for guys that age. Taking a look back through the preseason and early regular season. Too much motion and inability to create separation on the floor.
Shows your lack of comprehending, that was a Asik description not a Steve Nash description because it's based off this quote of yours:
Laughable
What's dishonest? If you weren't such a fucking troll you'd see I am acknowledging Asik's position at center. Howard was playing the 4 and they moved Asik to the bench to move Howard to his natural position.
What do I expect from a moron that misquoted me
That was what I was responding to you God damn moron.
See above
No what makes it idiotic is you feel it should be determined strictly by statistics which I strongly disagree. Then again the rest of the basketball world actually watches the game instead of basing their thesis strictly off statistical measures.
Learn the game.
One Punch Doug Crashin
I AM INVINSIBLE!
Uhhhhhh Hate to break it to ya but Kobe's 5th... You're forgetting Wilt Chamberlin and Jerry West....
Edit: But hey, sorry for the interuption. Now back to our regularly scheduled Forum debate.
Jerry West is debatable, I'll give you that, but Kobe has far more accomplishments and accolades than Chamberlin. I'll admit though, that Chamberlin is often overlooked or forgotten by many, however, and that's a damn shame.
