The Randy Orton (...dive) Controversy

[Pay Per Ghost]

Randy Orton is the latest star to chime in on the recent “….dive” fiasco that’s been making its way around the internet – a discussion he essentially lit a fire under after re-tweeting a post by veteran wrestler and trainer Rip Rogers.

Here’s the original message that was sent into Rogers:

“Every Indy match now: handshake, drawn out move exchange, this is awesome chant, strike exchange, dive no sell Indy strongstyle, dive, more strikes, no sells, dive, flippy floppy sequence, dive, hit everyone with each other’s finisher then Humpty Dumpty we all fall down. Fight forever chant, rinse and repeat until every move is useless and means nothing, dive, take unsafe shot that looks like shit and hurts like hell then roll up finish. Hand shake and hug after match. Everyone’s hands raised. All these guys chant. Go home and type on social media thanking your opponents and company for the match and telling others they should book these guys. ……………dive.”

Orton then re-tweeted the message adding simply, “…..dive”.

So the latest round of fires being lit in the indie camps are by Senor Randall Orton. Never one to shy away from a stiff statement, Orton tweeted the following and got a ton of response, a good chunk from a slew of indie guys and TJP who put it eloquently:

“The irony of proud magicians exposing bad magicians to non-magicians by explaining why the magic is fake” with the caption, “Pride is a funny thing…”

Now Randy did decide to "apologize"...

“Sorry to the indy marks, indy guys and old timers who do DIVES [that] took offense. Just having a good time over a few drinks in Denmark closing the Smackdown Live tour, while beating Raw in making over 5 million dollars in the last 11 shows. Now I know to some that doesn’t equate to a standing room only crowd of 150 people paying $8 at an armory somewhere, but in the big boy world that’s called putting asses in seats. So enjoy your flips, dives, and 20 superkicks per match. To each their own. I will go ‘dive’ back into my 13th title run and get ready to ‘flip’ when my bank statement comes this month. …..headlock”.

Oh my, Randy is interesting again.

 

[Khalifa]

Oh that's gold. Definitely a solid tweet by TJP and is 100% true but I kinda side with Orton here. Some of the Indy scene is just a joke in the way matches play out. How can you take like a superkick, a German and some neck breaker or ddt move, while doing a move in between each of his opponents moves making the whole sequence go for 10 seconds, and no sell but then stay down for 5x longer from a punch. It can sometimes look cool but it's just taking away half of what wrestling is about and that's psychology. To be fair that's the way crowds like it but WWE are also the best wrestling business in the world and they use more of a traditional style.

It is hard to knock something that is fake but the time I enjoyed wrestling the most was when I was a kid and didn't know it was real and I just feel it takes away any sort of legitimacy that wrestling could pretend to have (this is under the assumption kids don't watch the network shows that kill kayfabe... which is all of them). Sure kids most probably won't know the difference at the start, but I'm sure they'll figure it out slot sooner than any of us did. That might only be a slight knock to some but it's big to me, no psychology for these "fight forever" matches.

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

But "headlock". In WCW time Scott Hall approached cruiserweights after their match and said "Boys, I am getting there and get bigger pop then you with just a headlock". So nice reference Randy.

Its different platforms. You already have whole WWE machine supporting you while in indy scene you need to do flips and dives for bunch of smarks in high school gym so you could maybe one day have that WWE machine supporting you. Equivalent of that is some theater troop that goes from town to town making plays. And Broadway where your ability is actually widely respected. But can understand Randy, I am sure IWC is giving him lot of hard time even though he is certified future HoF and one of(if not maybe the best) technical wrestlers in biggest company in the world.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Yeah, but Orton is also guilty of no selling finishers and overselling insignificant moves. Everybody in WWE is.

He seems a bit late to the debate.

 

[JoeMallard]

Is Orton jealous that those Indy guys put on more entertaining matches than he has in nearly a decade? Guys like Will Osprey deserve that kind of criticism, because he has some of the worst psychology I've seen in a wrestler. The Young Bucks make more money than nearly half of what the WWE roster does, so to practically say you can't make money or draw good attendances in the indies is bullshit and arrogant. Rip Rogers just sounds like some bitter old guy that wishes he could have entertained fans.

 

[Wrestlingaholic]

To me, it's like the constant debates between different musical genres - some people like the "flippy sh*t", others favour the more methodical, technical style.

Personally, I like the mix of the two - for example on of my favourite matches is Bret Hart v Shawn Michaels from Survivor Series 1992, a nice blend of technical and high flying; it's also why DIY v the Revival worked so well, and their match at NXT Takeover: Toronto was one of the matches of last year.

i do agree with something mentioned earlier: the high impact moves becoming meaningless is annoying - but Orton is a culpable for that as anyone, his hangmans DDT (which is my least favourite move in wrestling) SHOULD be enough to finish someone off, but Orton uses it as nothing more than a signature move. I would rather he chose an alternative.

On a similar note, I went to a Dragon Gate USA card in Phoenix days before Wrestlemania 26; the matches were generally quite good (the likes of Brian Kendrick, Paul London, Dean Ambrose and the Young Bucks all had matches), but the thing that struck me with a lot of them was that they were full of big moves that didn't win, only to end matches on roll-ups or basic moves, which kind of made it feel flat.

Ultimately, there of course is a huge place for Indy wrestling - it's where 90% of wrestlers hone their craft, most aren't lucky like Orton to be born into it.

Or maybe it's just a big angle - Vader fought Ospreay last year, perhaps this is an early teaser for Orton's next feud after Jinder Mahal. The main event of Money in the Bank, for the WWE Championship: Randy Orton versus... TJP...

 

[GOOZEKING]

2 questions...
1) why comment on the topic. You are in wwe and people are in the indies. Why are you commentating on something that is obviously going to upset people
2) why make a sarcastic apology. For a professional person in a high position in a major company. Why not end the discussion by being a grown up and saying "I apologize for comment, thank you all wrestling fans for their undying passion".

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

2 questions...
1) why comment on the topic. You are in wwe and people are in the indies. Why are you commentating on something that is obviously going to upset people
2) why make a sarcastic apology. For a professional person in a high position in a major company. Why not end the discussion by being a grown up and saying "I apologize for comment, thank you all wrestling fans for their undying passion".

Because he's Randy Orton and he don't give a fuuuuuck!

Seriously though, I think there is a place in wrestling for all these different types of wrestlers/matches. They all have their fanbase, and if you don't like a particular style, just don't watch it. There's plenty of fans that do.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Is Orton jealous that those Indy guys put on more entertaining matches than he has in nearly a decade? Guys like Will Osprey deserve that kind of criticism, because he has some of the worst psychology I've seen in a wrestler. The Young Bucks make more money than nearly half of what the WWE roster does, so to practically say you can't make money or draw good attendances in the indies is bullshit and arrogant. Rip Rogers just sounds like some bitter old guy that wishes he could have entertained fans.

Orton has no reason to be jealous of anyone on the indy scene as he's had the sort of career and career success that anyone would want. Also, you have to take into account that the mindlessness of a good deal of indy matches might not necessarily be all that entertaining. While it's true the Young Bucks have found their way to a level of success almost unheard of on the indy scene, they're the exception rather than the rule. The vast majority of indy companies are companies that might wrestle in front of 150 or so people, if they're fortunate, paying $8 each while the formula Orton mentioned regarding indy matches is pretty consistent with most indy matches I've seen. Orton might be arrogant and a prick, but he's pretty much right and the fact that he's such an asshole and has made such good points is what makes some people mad. If Daniel Bryan or Seth Rollins had said this, nobody'd say boo about it and a lot of smarks would be coming out of the woodwork to wholeheartedly agree with them.

I think the most entertaining matches are some that have a mix of the more methodical style along with an increase in pace and more high impact stuff as things move along. In WWE, that's pretty much what happens much of the time and I admit that it does sometimes get old but look at the alternative. With WWE's schedule, guys adopting the indy formula would burn themselves out within a year. Using Will Ospreay as an example, if he signed with WWE tomorrow, he'd spend time in NXT learning how to tell a story, learning how to use psychology during a match while cutting back on the high spots so that he might not have to have knee replacements before he's 30.

But I don't put fans down for liking the indy style, more power to 'em if that's what they're into. People on the indy scene, however, talk shit about WWE all the time and I do think it's kinda cool that someone so prominent and with such a memorable career has called the indy scene as a whole on some of its own shit.

 

[OYDK]

Orton's kind of a huge dick, but he's never claimed to be anything different. Still, this is hilarious. I don't really care one way or the other but it's funny to me to see multiple fake wrestlers argue over the best way to fake wrestle.

It's really simple. If you don't like "indy-style" wrestling, don't watch it. If you don't like WWE style wrestling, don't watch it. The competition that exists between which style of wrestling is "realer" is ridiculous.

 

[Navi]

Randy Orton doing some of his best work on Twitter. Hilarious, he's being a huge douche bag and doesn't give a flying squirrel who knows it. TJP response was fantastic. Let's face it the whole thing is gold.

The funniest thing was a comment I saw on Discus. It went like this.

Roman Reign's: "I'm the most hated guy in the WWE today."
Randy Orton: "Hold my beer."

I was in stitches when I read that.

 

[Wildcat66]

Randy Orton taking a page out of Vader's book huh?

That's nice to hear.

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Orton's kind of a huge dick, but he's never claimed to be anything different. Still, this is hilarious. I don't really care one way or the other but it's funny to me to see multiple fake wrestlers argue over the best way to fake wrestle.

It's really simple. If you don't like "indy-style" wrestling, don't watch it. If you don't like WWE style wrestling, don't watch it. The competition that exists between which style of wrestling is "realer" is ridiculous.

I love the "REAL WRESTLING" indy fans (because it's always all caps). Did you know Kurt Angle won his gold medal with a series of superkicks and 450 splashes?

Anyway, I've always found hardcore wrestling fans hilarious, because stuff like this just works them into a big frenzy. Who cares what style people like? Let people watch what they want.

 

[klunderbunker]

I took in the WrestleCon Supershow and Rev Pro show on the same night over Wrestlemania weekend. That would be a show dedicated to indy/old school wrestling and another show with the word REVOLUTION, as in a change from the status quo in the company's name. I saw the following:

Someone doing an RKO and posing like Randy Orton
Drew Galloway doing a Stunner, followed by the Steve Austin middle fingers
Swoggle doing Suplex City
Billy Gunn getting the loudest pop in an old timers battle royal
Riccochet doing a People's Elbow

These were all among the loudest received spots/moves of the night.

Here's the thing: there's a place for both styles of wrestling. Indy wrestling certainly does have a place and an audience, but it pales in comparison to what WWE presents. Sure you can do more stuff in front of an indy audience and of course you have to throw in all the jabs at WWE because of whatever the latest injustice Vince has done but at the end of the day, most of those fans are going to watch Raw and buy the Network, which means Vince really doesn't care.

Orton also makes a great point about the attendance/the money. The SuperShow took in about 1200-1400 fans with general admission going for $25 a ticket. Counting in extra for floor seats, let's say the total gate was $40,000. That might be some kind of a record. If WWE had a $40,000 gate for any of it's ten or so shows a week, Vince would have to be pulled off a ledge so he could negotiate contracts with NBC for another $200 million deal to air Raw and Smackdown every week.

Indy wrestling has its spot, but they're a very small portion of the market. Oh and it's not real wrestling. None of it is.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Two things that interest me about this:

1. SD pulling bigger gates than Raw but supposedly Roman is worth more than everyone else. Is there that big of a disconnect between live gates and overall value of each wrestler?

2. When is Bray Wyatt going to leave WWE like PG told him to do so he can get all those TV and movie roles and other bookings that are so much better than what he has been given over the past four years?

Otherwise, different strokes for different folks. Indy and Lucha styles don't appeal to me for more than a few minutes at a time. That type of violence is better suited to movies, like all the movies being made that want Bray Wyatt to be their star.

 

[Psykohurricane55]

I think the fact that orton re posted a twit from Rip rogers, a guy that pretty much taught everything that orton knows about wrestling is just that because i read the post, and Rip was right about a lot of things concerning indy wrestlers.

Personally, i think that indy wrestlers seems to cares more about in ring work, then telling a story but that's not their fault in a sense. The fact is the fans are starting to ask a lot more out of these performers and those wrestlers love those chants their getting so instead of wrestling a smart match with less big spot and more storytelling like they did back in the day, they go all out to please a small group of peoples and not much money.

I think that's the main problem in today's wrestling scene, at 20 years olds, you think you're invincible and can't get hurt and will have a long career in wrestling based on what you do, so you go out and do all theses great dive and don't cares, and while like somebody said somebody like the young bucks we're able to makes money out of this, they're kinda in the minority and from what i've seen, they know they have to slow down and are doing less high risk move per match then they use to do.

I think Orton re-posted this for 2 reason, one because he wanted to get a reaction out of the indy wrestlers and fans and 2, just to point light of the situation on the indy circuit right now.

Randy orton has really nothing to be jealous of, the guy has been the top guy for years now, wrestled a safe style and is still one of the best all around wrestler in the north America. The guys makes more money in one day then those indy guys do in a month. So he really doesn'T need to be jealous of them. The point is simple, the wrestling business as change a lot especially in the indy's. Now more then ever, it's about work rate instead of making fans believe in your character which means more high spot and less safe bumb which means shorter careers for those same wrestlers. I think it's a shame and it's something that's kinda of problem right now, but trying to change to mentality and both the wrestlers and the fans that are following it is really hard.

 

[Azane]

After the recent style of "8 finishers in a match", especially Wrestlemania, I find it very ironic that anyone in WWE can talk crap about Indies failing to tell a story.

WWE's style switched completely to just spamming finishing moves, and the Cruiserweights with a couple exceptions have resorted to flippy stuff with very few stories.

A lot of indie stuff is fun to watch, just because you can tune in without knowing the story and watch the art in the ring. Ricochet's matches always fit this bill. They're always fun. When someone tried to get me into Lucha, they showed me some Prince Puma matches that I wasnt sure where the story was.

With WWE's best, it's usually psychological warfare which is great, but there's the new generation that plays out the big matches like they're a Smackdown vs Raw Videogame, and just spam finishers and signatures, with no regard to the storytelling, and some of them like Spears, aren't even big and flashy.

Randy's recent Wrestlemania match had about 5 Teased RKOs, and the entire match was just "Fake RKO FAKE RKO, Rest hold, FAKE RKO!" and it was some of the most garbage wrestling. The entire match was built around the projector gimmick. Orton has no place to criticize anyone on their style. He's become a 1 trick pony with the RKO.

Wrestlings evolved to be about fast agile men, and the giant musclemen are becoming more rare, because fans are gravitating towards flippy spot monkey matches, instead of squash snoozefests.

 

[sikkbones]

Why does Orton even have an opinion, he's never spent a day on the independent scene.

He was born into the business.

And independent shows are by there nature not mainstream and appeal to smarks.

Ask Cody.

 

[Papa Pillman]

I'd pay good money for a card full of matches laid out in the way, while leading to illiciting the type of crowd reactions that, "rip rogers' " writer so falsely asserts represents all Indy matches. The Indy scene has far too few of those matches.

Also hopefully Randy thanked K.O. and A.J. for selling out those houses.

 

[Woodstuff]

Considering the amount of shit these indy nerds pile on WWE and their fans on a daily basis, I think it's refreshing to hear someone calling the indys out for being the no-sell spot fests that they are.

But to each their own. If you don't like Indy wrestling, don't watch it. If you don't like WWE, don't watch it (as incomprehensible as that is to most of their critics lol).

Just don't get all defensive when someone is sharing an opinion that you don't agree with. Especially if you're the type of person to slate WWE "marks" and throw shade at them for enjoying something you don't (or claim not to, anyway).

Just enjoy what you enjoy, ignore what you don't, and let everyone else do the same. It really isn't that important haha

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I don't know what's real wrestling and what is not. I do know wrestling, WWE included, is turning into somewhat of a stunt show. Guys aimlessly crashing into one another with no purpose, or psychology. The theater aspect is fading, which is unfortunate. If the dramatics are gone, what do you have? Fake wrestlers doing fake stunts, over and over and over again. No, thanks.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

I'd pay good money for a card full of matches laid out in the way, while leading to illiciting the type of crowd reactions that, "rip rogers' " writer so falsely asserts represents all Indy matches. The Indy scene has far too few of those matches.

Also hopefully Randy thanked K.O. and A.J. for selling out those houses.

See thats what the WWE has done essentially.


The likes of Punk and Bryan are the first breed of the indie stars in the WWE. And it was in WWE that they had some of their best matches and moments. Now I wont discredit a Bryan Danielson Vs Mcguiness match somewhere in ROH, but those moments in the cage with Bray, that reception at the Ascension Ceremony and the win at Superdome dwarf the crowd passionate singing of Its The Final Countdown in a high school gym.

They have taken the best out of them, their main attributes. Hey! it was in WWE where DBry actually showed real charisma.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

From OYDK "I don't really care one way or the other but it's funny to me to see multiple fake wrestlers argue over the best way to fake wrestle."

Couldn't have said it any better. As long as the fans are entertained (and they are), then who cares?

Neither side should talk trash about the other side. That's just laughable and idiotic.

Ultimately, wrestling is entertainment, not art. There's not a specific way it should be done. There's something for everyone and many different styles. If you don't like a style, don't watch it.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Ultimately, wrestling is entertainment, not art. There's not a specific way it should be done. There's something for everyone and many different styles. If you don't like a style, don't watch it.

I think you mean science, or possibly religion, but not art. Or maybe not. Your favorite President is an entertainer who cut both funding for the arts and science, so maybe they're the same. That being said, some would argue that there is a science behind entertainment and also a science behind wrestling. Those people have too much time on their hands but who am I to criticize them since I've spent the last three minutes putting together this poorly worded and thought out response to your post.

How about that sharing classified info with the Russians thing?

 

[justavictim82]

Orton is absolutely right here. Why are these guys trying to kill themselves on a nightly basis for $20 at best? 95% of these guys/girls are never going to make enough money in wrestling to support themselves. I felt the same way about the indy's in the early 2000's when everyone was trying to emulate ECW. I see indy shows all the time where they are nothing but spot fests. Why? You think this separates you from the rest and is going to get you paid? Absolutely not.

People call Orton's style boring but he never hurts anyone in the ring. In an age where the company is losing guys left and right to injury why is someone not mentioning how safe he is as a worker? Lance Storm recently commented about how he would feed his face to Orton on a platter. 1 trick pony? Most of the guys in the WWE are on limited move sets. Why? Because it is safer for them to do so.